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U.S. Elections: The Trumph of the Will


lokisnow

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Donald Trump delivered a hellish speech with no facts, comprised of only lies, and that does not remotely describe anything resembling a realistic America. What's the state of our nation? Massively better than his fear-mongering, hate-spewing invective-of-terror.

As Norm Ornstein said on Twitter: 

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If Leni Riefenstahl were alive, Trump would hire her to film this speech. Then not pay her.

 

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Jon Stewart Returns to Take Down Trump and the GOP: ‘I See Your Bullshit’
On the day Roger Ailes resigned and Donald Trump accepted the GOP nomination, Jon Stewart returned to what he does best: ripping Republicans and Fox News.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/22/jon-stewart-returns-to-take-down-trump-and-the-gop-i-see-your-bullshit.html

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@Dr. Pepper

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Can we just make Ivanka our next president and cottonball Hillary/Trump?

Why?  Did she present a policy platform that is even remotely palatable?

ETA: Just read some snippets.  From NPR: "He is colorblind and gender neutral," she said to applause. "When Donald Trump is in charge, all that counts is ability, excellence and effort."

Yeah, no.  This is fucking offensive. 

Yea seriously, kill me now.   I just honestly don't understand why everyone jumps on the Ivanka train like this.   It seems so abundantly clear that she is nothing more than a more polished, better coiffed version of her shameless father.  

Other than her sexism/ racism apology/ denial, her speech was proposing progressive policies geared toward helping women.  The sort of proposals that are in Hillary's platform (and in the Dem platform more generally).   Great, you'd think.  Except when you remember that A.  her entire business is about a lifestyle brand for working women, so this speech about equal pay and affordable child care and the like is basically free advertisement for more street cred for her website and clothing line,  B. giving her plausible deniability to preserve her brand (or, god help us, possible political career) in the face of her father's odious politics,   C.  has nothing to do with anything in Trump's campaign or platform.  I mean, none of these things she brought up has fuck all to do with anything (well, outside of Hillary's campaign),    D.  all to basically mislead women into believing that this super misogynistic candidate has their best interests at heart. 

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Given Trump's complete lack of diplomatic skills, this would prob'ly be one of his better Presidential moves. Look i'm not in the habit of making excuses for Trump, I like the fact that he makes all the lifelong politicians nervous, that's pretty much the beginning and the end of it.
@Rory Snow

Two hours ago you were saying that he wants to make the country better and Hillary just wants to be President.  Now you're saying that in fact, he just wants to be President while delegating literally everything out because he's so incompetent is fine!  Maybe he makes the lifelong politicians nervous because they can all see how fucking disastrous his Presidency would be?  

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5 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Donald Trump delivered a hellish speech with no facts, comprised of only lies, and that does not remotely describe anything resembling a realistic America. What's the state of our nation? Massively better than his fear-mongering, hate-spewing invective-of-terror.

Why do you feel the need to exaggerate like this? If you look at Kalbear's link in the previous thread, the speech was a mix of real facts, exaggerations and outright lies which is exactly what one usually expects from politicians. It is of course different from most American political speeches in that he's openly saying that things are bad. I don't know how well this strategy will work for him, but it is consistent with the rest of his campaign. And then there's this (again from Kalbear's link):

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“Household incomes are down more than $4,000 since the year 2000.”

This one is true. In 2000, real median household income was $57,724. By 2014, it was down to $53,657, a bit higher than its post-recession low of $52,605 but still $4,000 below its 2000 level.

 

Frankly, it is the only one that matters (almost nobody cares whether Iran got $150B in the deal or only a fraction of that).

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24 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

So.... Kaine or Vilsack?

(Preferably not Booker, with his Wall Street baggage).

Its not Vilsack. Clinton's announcing today or tomorrow, and she's in Florida both days. It'll be someone who speaks Spanish (Kaine, Booker, or Perez) or someone from Florida (Stavridis). My money's on Kaine.

If it was Vilsack (or Warren) she'd be in Ohio or Pennsylvania (not Iowa; too on-the-nose),

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@Fragile Bird,

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There are rules set out in the treaty, iirc.  It's been a few years since I read it, but I think a party that wants to withdraw has to give notice to the other two parties, one year, I think

That's not what I'm asking though. I'm trying to figure out the steps required for the U.S. to pull out internally. Does the Congress have a say in it or is it entirely up to the President? 

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7 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Continue.  

Donald Trump delivered a hellish speech with no facts, comprised of only lies, and that does not remotely describe anything resembling a realistic America.

These two selfies are indicative of what Republicans view as America (from Vox):

Republicans and Democrats alike are vying to lead America’s future this year as President Barack Obama concludes his second term in the White House. But a couple of new selfies with congressional interns suggest one party at least looks more like the America it’s hoping to lead.

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/20/12240656/paul-ryan-selfie

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2 hours ago, MerenthaClone said:

Two hours ago you were saying that he wants to make the country better and Hillary just wants to be President.  Now you're saying that in fact, he just wants to be President while delegating literally everything out because he's so incompetent is fine!  Maybe he makes the lifelong politicians nervous because they can all see how fucking disastrous his Presidency would be?

You folks and your misquotes. Its one strawman after another. 

I didn't say he wants to delegate everything, I only responded to a quote YOU supplied.

I do think he believes that he is in fact the answer and that he wants to make things better. He has a massive ego and I'm certain he likes to envision himself as some sort of white knight riding up in the nick of time to save the day. But I also believe he is wrong. He is not the answer and will only make things worse. He's remarkably UN-Presidential.

As for Hillary, I don't believe anything that comes out of her mouth, everything is calculated. I think her biggest motivation in all this is to be the 1st female President and she'll say absolutely anything to anyone in whatever accent necessary to achieve that end. It's my opinion, yours is different, you actually think she's ethical and honest, only time will tell who's right.

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2 hours ago, Altherion said:

Why do you feel the need to exaggerate like this? If you look at Kalbear's link in the previous thread, the speech was a mix of real facts, exaggerations and outright lies which is exactly what one usually expects from politicians. It is of course different from most American political speeches in that he's openly saying that things are bad. I don't know how well this strategy will work for him, but it is consistent with the rest of his campaign. And then there's this (again from Kalbear's link):

Frankly, it is the only one that matters (almost nobody cares whether Iran got $150B in the deal or only a fraction of that).

Just policy-wise, what's your solution for the decline in median household income?

I imagine closing borders to trade and immigration might increase median income a little, but given automation, I'm not sure it's going to be that much. And it's almost certainly going to be a net loss in purchasing power parity terms.

I'm skeptical of educating under-employed workers to be computer programmers/entrepreneurs/massage therapists.

Unions, maybe. I'm also a bit skeptical about the effectiveness of labor unions in a knowledge-based, service economy.

In fact, the only real solution I can think of is for a gradual expansion in welfare state, eventually resulting in a Basic Income.

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To be clear, while Trump did occasionally tell the truth in his speech and did lie at a rate that is consistent with his normal rate of lying (50-60%), Trump was absolutely not lying at the usual rate of politicians. He is lying about 4 times as much.

To Rory, that is why it is so bizarre that you think Clinton will say anything when you actually are presented with a presidential candidate who is demonstrating what say anything looks like.

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27 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

You folks and your misquotes. Its one strawman after another. 

I didn't say he wants to delegate everything, I only responded to a quote YOU supplied.

I do think he believes that he is in fact the answer and that he wants to make things better. He has a massive ego and I'm certain he likes to envision himself as some sort of white knight riding up in the nick of time to save the day. But I also believe he is wrong. He is not the answer and will only make things worse. He's remarkably UN-Presidential.

As for Hillary, I don't believe anything that comes out of her mouth, everything is calculated. I think her biggest motivation in all this is to be the 1st female President and she'll say absolutely anything to anyone in whatever accent necessary to achieve that end. It's my opinion, yours is different, you actually think she's ethical and honest, only time will tell who's right.

 

Strawman.... I don't think that word means what you think it means.  

It's humorous that after being repeatedly asked about actual issues and actual reasons why Hillary Clinton is just as bad of a candidate as Trump the best you've come up with is some vague notion of her changing accents.  Twice.

That's some level 10,000 willful ignorance there.

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11 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

Just policy-wise, what's your solution for the decline in median household income?

I imagine closing borders to trade and immigration might increase median income a little, but given automation, I'm not sure it's going to be that much. And it's almost certainly going to be a net loss in purchasing power parity terms.

I'm skeptical of educating under-employed workers to be computer programmers/entrepreneurs/massage therapists.

Unions, maybe. I'm also a bit skeptical about the effectiveness of labor unions in a knowledge-based, service economy.

In fact, the only real solution I can think of is for a gradual expansion in welfare state, eventually resulting in a Basic Income.

I am not aware of any solution that will plausibly work. Trump and Sanders should get credit for loudly proclaiming that we have a big problem (which the establishment has consistently downplayed), but, as you point out, neither of their proposed solutions will achieve much. A universal basic income is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that the math works out (i.e. it's either going to be too little or require large taxes). At the moment, it looks like an existential threat to the system, but maybe there's a solution that nobody has yet thought of.

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Trump's having a kinda amazing press conference right now. Its the complete shitshow that I half-expected last night to be (last night was a shitshow, but of a different sort). He's spent most of it attacking Cruz, Cruz's dad, and previous Republican Presidents. At one point he asked why the National Enquirer has never gotten a Pultizer. He said bad things about a lot of our allies, including Japan now. 

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5 hours ago, butterbumps! said:

@Dr. Pepper

Yea seriously, kill me now.   I just honestly don't understand why everyone jumps on the Ivanka train like this.   It seems so abundantly clear that she is nothing more than a more polished, better coiffed version of her shameless father.  

Other than her sexism/ racism apology/ denial, her speech was proposing progressive policies geared toward helping women.  The sort of proposals that are in Hillary's platform (and in the Dem platform more generally).   Great, you'd think.  Except when you remember that A.  her entire business is about a lifestyle brand for working women, so this speech about equal pay and affordable child care and the like is basically free advertisement for more street cred for her website and clothing line,  B. giving her plausible deniability to preserve her brand (or, god help us, possible political career) in the face of her father's odious politics,   C.  has nothing to do with anything in Trump's campaign or platform.  I mean, none of these things she brought up has fuck all to do with anything (well, outside of Hillary's campaign),    D.  all to basically mislead women into believing that this super misogynistic candidate has their best interests at heart. 

Can I just say that I'm also really irritated at the media right now because as I was searching through to get a full transcript of her speech, nearly all of the top articles revolved around what she was wearing.  ffs.  And it;s not like any of these articles went on to describe potential conflicts of interest as you've done here.  Nope, they just drilled into my head that Ivanka was dressed in a $138 sheath dress from her own line.  

49 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

You folks and your misquotes. Its one strawman after another. 

I didn't say he wants to delegate everything, I only responded to a quote YOU supplied.

I do think he believes that he is in fact the answer and that he wants to make things better. He has a massive ego and I'm certain he likes to envision himself as some sort of white knight riding up in the nick of time to save the day. But I also believe he is wrong. He is not the answer and will only make things worse. He's remarkably UN-Presidential.

As for Hillary, I don't believe anything that comes out of her mouth, everything is calculated. I think her biggest motivation in all this is to be the 1st female President and she'll say absolutely anything to anyone in whatever accent necessary to achieve that end. It's my opinion, yours is different, you actually think she's ethical and honest, only time will tell who's right.

So you're issue is that Hillary code-switches and also really wants to be president, two things that apparently no other presidential candidate in history could be accused of doing?  Code-switching is a pretty normal and natural thing people engage in.  Trump is one of the few political figures I can think of who doesn't really code-switch, and that's probably because he doesn't give a shit about other people. And you can move the fuck on from penalizing Hillary for wanting to be president.  No one runs for president out of some noble gesture to take one for the team.  They all do it because they want it.  The fact that she'd be the first woman president isn't relevant to her really wanting to be president.  

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8 minutes ago, Fez said:

Trump's having a kinda amazing press conference right now. Its the complete shitshow that I half-expected last night to be (last night was a shitshow, but of a different sort). He's spent most of it attacking Cruz, Cruz's dad, and previous Republican Presidents. At one point he asked why the National Enquirer has never gotten a Pultizer. He said bad things about a lot of our allies, including Japan now. 

Oh my gods...I stumbled upon it as it was "apparently" nearing an end...I walked away to do some more packing, came back ten minutes later and he was extoling the virtues of the National Enquirer and doing all he could to bash any one and any country.  I await the fact checking on his twitter and facebook claims as well.  Not that anyone who is into Trump actually believes it's possible to fact check him without bias.

 

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35 minutes ago, Altherion said:

I am not aware of any solution that will plausibly work. Trump and Sanders should get credit for loudly proclaiming that we have a big problem (which the establishment has consistently downplayed), but, as you point out, neither of their proposed solutions will achieve much. A universal basic income is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that the math works out (i.e. it's either going to be too little or require large taxes). At the moment, it looks like an existential threat to the system, but maybe there's a solution that nobody has yet thought of.

I'm pretty sure that addressing inequality and falling median income has been part of the Democratic platform for more than a decade at least.

Sure, I'm not sure their solution is the best, but I wouldn't give Trump and Sanders that much credit for pointing out a problem that policy wonks have been pointing out for a long time now. It's just they do so in a louder, and more novel way.

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