Tommen's Kingsguard - any thoughts?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I have some thoughts about the Kingsguard (in its current state at the end of ADWD). I have a feeling that it is going to play a crucial role in the next book. Brief summary of its state:

Jaime – missing.

Robert Strong – zombie.

Balon Swann – in Dorne, probably in mortal danger in the near future.

Boros Blount – I don’t want to say whether he’s being poisoned or not, but he’s definitely ailing.

Loras Tyrell – BBQ.

Meryn Trant – fine.

Osmund Kettleblack – fine.

The above suggests to me that potentially positions are about to open up in the Kingsguard. None are 100% certain to die, but several seem to be in the firing line. Given the inflammatory situation in Kings Landing (Kevan dead; Sparrows ascendant; impending trials; Tyrells, Lannisters and Martells squaring up to each other) vacancies appearing in the Kingsguard could play an important role, or at least a major bone of contention between the Tyrells and the Lannisters.

The decline of the Kingsguard as an institution has been a theme throughout the series, and has been a particular sore-spot for Jaime, who clearly wants to make it great again. That suggests to me that this issue is going to become more significant at some point. 

I don’t really have any answers as to *how* this will be relevant. At least none that are anything other than speculative, but I’m interested in what people think. The stage is clearly set for a general disintegration of the political scene in Kings Landing, and the state of the Kingsguard could well be a part of that. A sudden opening of vacancies could be the opportunity for Jaime (if he returns) to appoint decent White Cloaks like he wants. It could be an opportunity for Cersei to fill it with a bunch of Trant/Blount-types, or a bunch of monsters like Strong. It could be an opportunity for the Tyrells to appoint their own loyalists.

Thoughts?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Kettleblack should lose his head soon after the trial.

 

no idea who could take his spot.

ETA: i suppose if Mace takes the regency he will choose. the second son of one of his bannermen.

the only highborn in KL i can think of are the redwynes.

[Lord Vance II]

I don't see it being a huge deal. Mainly because there are so much bigger things happening in Kings Landing. Maybe in peace time a few openings would be important. 

The Kingsguard is just a bunch of bums outside Jaime. Now, after several years of war, I seriously doubt there's anyone alive/available/willing to join that's any major improvement on the bums they have. Even if there was the second son of a Lord who was worth a damn, If I'm the Lord father, there's no way I'm sending my son to the clusterf*ck that is Kings Landing to serve the increasingly mad queen and her inbred whelps. 

They'll appoint some bums who's names won't ring a bell. 

I kind of think the firing of Selmy put a curse or something on the Kingsguard. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

12 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

The Kingsguard is just a bunch of bums outside Jaime

I'd agree with the exception of Swann and Loras, both of whom seem well-suited in their own ways, particularly Swann.

I don't think it's an issue of paramount importance, but I do think it will have some relevance. If only as one of many battlegrounds between Cersei and Mace. 

[Lord Vance II]

3 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I'd agree with the exception of Swann and Loras, both of whom seem well-suited in their own ways, particularly Swann.

Fair, Loras is undisputably a talented fighter (though his loyalty to Tommen/Cersei is questionable at best, I believe the theory that his injuries at Dragonstone are faked). Swann as well. It does seem like Cersei has a way of sending the best ones away and keeping the chaff nearby. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

14 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Fair, Loras is undisputably a talented fighter (though his loyalty to Tommen/Cersei is questionable at best, I believe the theory that his injuries at Dragonstone are faked). Swann as well. It does seem like Cersei has a way of sending the best ones away and keeping the chaff nearby. 

Yeah, personally I don’t subscribe to that Loras theory, as it seems like a convoluted thing to do for no obvious gain. I’m always open to be convinced about it though.

To be fair, kicking their heals in the Red Keep is probably better for the useless Kingsguard members, as opposed to the missions the others were sent on. Although choosing Swann for a cloak-and-dagger mission was a classic example of poor delegation from a bad manager!

[Jon Fossoway]

I'd like to cling onto another thread to give my thoughts about this one. Boros Blount is weak and probably can't protect Tommen when his life may be in danger. The Kingsguard as a whole is weakened and, instead of thinking about their replacements, which will come, I think GRRM is setting the idea that Tommen's life is becoming more and more vulnerable to threats.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

I don't see it being a huge deal. Mainly because there are so much bigger things happening in Kings Landing. Maybe in peace time a few openings would be important. 

The Kingsguard is just a bunch of bums outside Jaime. Now, after several years of war, I seriously doubt there's anyone alive/available/willing to join that's any major improvement on the bums they have. Even if there was the second son of a Lord who was worth a damn, If I'm the Lord father, there's no way I'm sending my son to the clusterf*ck that is Kings Landing to serve the increasingly mad queen and her inbred whelps. 

They'll appoint some bums who's names won't ring a bell. 

I kind of think the firing of Selmy put a curse or something on the Kingsguard. 

Jaime ain't no better. He's actually the worse Kingsguard there is. 

[Lord Vance II]

20 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Jaime ain't no better. He's actually the worse Kingsguard there is.

He's no boy scout, but as far as capability to defend a King, I don't see how any other comes close save maybe Loras. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

He's no boy scout, but as far as capability to defend a King, I don't see how any other comes close save maybe Loras. 

He is short a hand at this point... I have a feeling he is going to get really good with his left, though.. But for now, any one of the current KG could make pretty short work of Jamie.

[Raisin' Bran]

5 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yeah, personally I don’t subscribe to that Loras theory, as it seems like a convoluted thing to do for no obvious gain. I’m always open to be convinced about it though.

To be fair, kicking their heals in the Red Keep is probably better for the useless Kingsguard members, as opposed to the missions the others were sent on. Although choosing Swann for a cloak-and-dagger mission was a classic example of poor delegation from a bad manager!

 

I do subscribe to the theory, but I have not done the research to do anything close to a sufficient job of explaining the evidence.

About Ser Balon Swann, yes absolutely. There was no sense in sending Swann "the upright and just" to Dorne as part of a assassination plot. Meryn Trant, "sly and cruel" and supposedly loyal to Cersei, would have been a much better choice in that department.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

22 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Jaime ain't no better. He's actually the worse Kingsguard there is. 

It's surprising to me how many fans of the series still make black-and-white statements like that. Jaime's certainly got his problems, but since he returned to KL we have no reason to think he's not genuinely taking his role seriously and wanting to make the KG great again. We also know he's capable, not just as a swordsman but as a commander. Blount's an embaressment, Trant's a cunt, and Kettleblack is an empty vessel. I'd take a complex but capable leader who's serious about his job over any of those three. 

[The Wolves]

8 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It's surprising to me how many fans of the series still make black-and-white statements like that. Jaime's certainly got his problems, but since he returned to KL we have no reason to think he's not genuinely taking his role seriously and wanting to make the KG great again. We also know he's capable, not just as a swordsman but as a commander. Blount's an embaressment, Trant's a cunt, and Kettleblack is an empty vessel. I'd take a complex but capable leader who's serious about his job over any of those three. 

He's going around calling people traitors like the Riverlands lords and Cersei when he's spent almost two decades being a traitorous cunt. 

So I'm suppose to give the little bitch his due because after all these years he decides to take his vows serious? Why should Jaime get any recognition for still lying about his crimes? He's knowingly serving his bastard false King and a tyrannous dynasty. 

Stop glossing over Jaime's crimes just cause GRRM made him more sympathetic and his POV does not take away what he's done and has continue to do. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, The Wolves said:

Stop glossing over Jaime's crimes just cause GRRM made him more sympathetic and his POV does not take away what he's done and has continue to do. 

Perhaps we have different ideas with regards to human nature. I don't gloss over his crimes I contextualise them. 

Of course he takes on the lords of the Riverlands, that's what you do with rivals. His treatment of them is certainly better than Tywin's would have been (r.e. his conversation with Genna after the capture of Riverrun). 

He was treasonous certainly. He killed Aerys, but for perfectly valid reasons. And yeah, he shagged his sister and fathered children on her that they all pass off as Roberts. Incest isn't my cup of tea, but each to their own. As to the kids, who cares? The Lannisters aren't after me for child-support so it's not my problem.

Glib tone set-aside for a second, Jaime has done all sorts of terrible things (chucking Bran out the window being #1 in my view), but that doesn't make him pure evil. His crimes are bad and, in my opinion, he is and will continue to pay for them. But he's also capable of kindness and good, like all of us, bar utter violent psychopaths. Bad people can do good things. And believe me, in my experience, good people can do really terrible things. If you want a good vs evil battle, read Tolkein. Or the Bible. 

[The Wolves]

13 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Perhaps we have different ideas with regards to human nature. I don't gloss over his crimes I contextualise them. 

Of course he takes on the lords of the Riverlands, that's what you do with rivals. His treatment of them is certainly better than Tywin's would have been (r.e. his conversation with Genna after the capture of Riverrun). 

He was treasonous certainly. He killed Aerys, but for perfectly valid reasons. And yeah, he shagged his sister and fathered children on her that they all pass off as Roberts. Incest isn't my cup of tea, but each to their own. As to the kids, who cares? The Lannisters aren't after me for child-support so it's not my problem.

Glib tone set-aside for a second, Jaime has done all sorts of terrible things (chucking Bran out the window being #1 in my view), but that doesn't make him pure evil. His crimes are bad and, in my opinion, he is and will continue to pay for them. But he's also capable of kindness and good, like all of us, bar utter violent psychopaths. Bad people can do good things. And believe me, in my experience, good people can do really terrible things. If you want a good vs evil battle, read Tolkein. Or the Bible. 

Who cares about the incest kids? Seriously? Those kids are the reason that a war happened believe it or not. 

Jaime's number one crime is not trying to kill Bran, its him knowingly causing a war. 

Just cause Jaime can do some kindness doesn't take away the fact that he's done more evil than good. Or that all his evil acts have had major impacts throughout the country or the world(seeing that this war have stopped Westeros uniting to stop an ice zombie apocalypse)

Anyways I have my opinion about Jaime and you yours. No amount of discussion will ever change my opinion that hes a monster who started a war for his sister's vagina, so let's just leave it at that. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Just cause Jaime can do some kindness doesn't take away the fact that he's done more evil than good.

Evil is an abstract concept that I disregard.

If we were constucting a balance sheet where we could weigh up the "good" things vs the "bad" things Jaime has done, then you might have a point, but such a chart wouldn't take into account the bad things he did for good reasons or the good things he did for bad reasons, the limited options that were available at any particular time, or the circumstances in which those decisions were made. In short, if you ignore context your analysis is baseless. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Who cares about the incest kids? Seriously? Those kids are the reason that a war happened believe it or not.

If Eddard/Jon Arryn/Stannis has successfully uncovered their paternity and Robert had accepted it, those children would have died. Fighting a war to stop that happening could be seen as "good" or "bad" depending on your perspective. To put it in the "evil" column is rather one sided.