R+L=J v.162

[purple-eyes]

7 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

The thing I love about your posts purple eyes is I can always count on you make up the tritest mischaracterization possible of any serious response some one tries to write to you. No one said any of those things.

hint: next time you feel need to start writing your own dialogue to make fun of others- stop and do something else

Well, unless my English failed me, it seems like I did not misinterpret you.

Didn't you just say the following?

The Stark brothers are not deaf or blind to what has gone on between Lyanna and Rhaegar. it is likely there is no need at all for anyone to inform Lyanna's family what is going on. If it is not carried back from whom ever was her escort, it is likely they knew her intentions without anyone saying anything at all.

If I misunderstood you, sorry and please explain to me again.

 

[J. Stargaryen]

7 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

That is the interesting point.

This marriage should only become known after the deed was done.

Let us say Rhaegar married Lyanna in front of a tree. Now princess Lyanna is happily carrying a royal prince.

Why did not Rhaegar inform this to Ned and try to seek peace?

By your logic, the marriage is already a done deal. So no matter what happened, Rhaegar is Lyanna's husband.

he can be exiled, he can be disinherited, he can be killed, but he will be Lyanna's husband forever.

Nobody can undo this. Everybody had to accept this truth, no matter how unhappy they are. Right?

How about talking with his new brother-in-law Ned and telling him that Lyanna will become the glorious queen of Westeros?

Why kept fighting with Ned and Robert?

They fight, then one of them will lose and likely die. So Lyanna either loses her brother, or loses her husband.

Does she want to see this happen? probably not.

Why rhaegar said nothing about this important thing?

Easy, he did not have a marriage to offer.

Announcing a marriage between R&L wouldn't change the fact that the rebels had already raised their banners in defiance of the king's call for Ned and Robert's heads.

[purple-eyes]

15 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Announcing a marriage between R&L wouldn't change the fact that the rebels had already raised their banners in defiance of the king's call for Ned and Robert's heads.

Of course it can change. Now he is brother-in-law of Ned and Lyanna is his princess.

If Ned kept rebelling against Rhaegar, then Ned is technically rebelling against his beloved sister and also Ned is risking making his beloved sister a widow (and they did kill Rhaegar).

In fact, if Rhaegar told this to Ned and offered to work together to depose mad king, much less people would die. Didn't Rhaegar already want to depose his daddy?

By the way, Lyanna can inform Robert that she did not love him and she wanted and already married Rhaegar. This would more likely make Robert accept the truth and willing to work with other people to depose mad king. Even in reality, it is better and more honest to tell somebody you do not love that you do not love, right?

 

 

 

 

 

[J. Stargaryen]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

Of course it can change. Now he is brother-in-law of Ned and Lyanna is his princess.

If Ned kept rebelling against Rhaegar, then Ned is technically rebelling against his beloved sister and also Ned is risking making his beloved sister a widow (and they did kill Rhaegar).

In fact, if Rhaegar told this to Ned and offered to work together to depose mad king, much less people would die. Didn't Rhaegar already want to depose his daddy?

By the way, Lyanna can inform Robert that she did not love him and she wanted and already married Rhaegar. This would more likely make Robert accept the truth and willing to work with other people to depose mad king. Even in reality, it is better and more honest to tell somebody you do not love that you do not love, right?

If you say so.

[Kingmonkey]

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think Rhaegar takes a huge gamble with his father when he takes off with Lyanna, but I also think he believes Aerys knows the meaning of his crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal. As I've said before, I think it is primarily a political act of consolidation with his father stating to the Starks and the Baratheons and the whole of the growing alliance that he stood against their aims of removing Targaryen power.

If Rhaegar's gesture was understood by Aerys as such an act of political consolidation, why would Aerys be more rather than less likely to disinherit him?  If you consider the dangers of a boy-king (see King Tommen, or indeed SweetRobin) Aerys would have a very good reason not to disinherit Rheagar at least until Viserys was older, unless there really was no choice.

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Nonetheless, Rhaegar takes a huge gamble that his mad father will not turn on him in his absence .It seems to me that assuming he will become king and can legitimize his child with Lyanna at that time is a huge jump.

I really don't think it's reasonable to call it a "huge jump" that the heir to the throne would think he would become king.

Disinheriting the very popular Rhaegar would be a very risky move for Aerys to take, and if anything running off with Lyanna was rocking the boat less than he had been doing previously.

There are two paths for Rhaegar to become king. One is just waiting it out, the other is a coup of some type. So far Rhaegar had avoided making the attempt, obviously considering that it was more of a risk rocking the boat than waiting it out -- though we know he was getting closer and closer to pressing the button on a grand council. Aerys' triggering of the rebellion by his actions towards the Starks was a step to far for Rhaegar, who indicates to Jaime that "changes will be made" --  and he seems quite confident of that. 

One thing that's vitally important to Rhaegar in BOTH these scenarios is his popularity. A polygamous marriage might be something he could get away with, but it is certainly something that would hit is popularity. Would he be so sure of the support of the great houses, if he'd entered a polygamous marriage? 

Let's consider this whole thing about getting away with a polygamous marriage. The Targs have a tradition of polygamy, and as the ruling house, the regular rules just don't apply to them the way they do apply to others. Thus Rhaegar would be relying on his position as Targ heir to have any chance of  getting away with it. Yet this exact same position means that he wouldn't need to get away with it (for the sake of Jon's legitimacy) as it would allow for the much less controversial legitimization of a bastard, too. 

 

[purple-eyes]

2 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

If you say so.

It might not work very well. sure. War is already there and it is hard to call a stop. 

however, as smart as he is, Rhaegar should at least try to play this marriage card to seek peace or better solution.

it is a very useful card considering this so-called marriage pact of ice and fire bound targaryen and Stark together.

That is why people hold noble marriage so important because it is the best way to unite two houses. 

Unfortunately Rhaegar does not have this card in his pocket, he can only fight until his last breath against Ned and Robert.

 

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

If Rhaegar's gesture was understood by Aerys as such an act of political consolidation, why would Aerys be more rather than less likely to disinherit him?  If you consider the dangers of a boy-king (see King Tommen, or indeed SweetRobin) Aerys would have a very good reason not to disinherit Rheagar at least until Viserys was older, unless there really was no choice.

He is less likely than he was before Harrenhal to disinherit Rhaegar. Prior to Harrenhal Aerys has been told of the dangers of the alliance and of Rhaegar joining with them. It's largely why he goes to the tourney. That and to witness his triumph over Tywin when he takes Jaime into his service.

After Harrenhal, things do not stay in the same balance. For one thing the STAB alliance is going through with their plans to marry Brandon to Catelyn, and perhaps Robert to Lyanna. The same forces that push to disinherit Rhaegar are still there, and we can count on Aerys's paranoia around Tywin growing every minute.

Into this we throw the kidnapping. The same forces are still pushing for disinheriting, and the STAB alliance is now demanding satisfaction for Rhaegar's action, but Rhaegar is no where to be found. It's not hard to see that the balance changes again. Only now, Aerys decides this is the time to do his best Michael Corlene imitation, and civil war breaks out. Everyone has to decide which banner to follow, but Rhaegar follows no one's banner. Now Dorne is upset, and who knows which way the members of Rhaegar's faction will fall?

And on and on it goes, with political games changing alliances just as it does in the story present. Why would we think Martin's world would be simple in the past when it isn't in the present? We should not. At one point Rhaegar is more likely to follow his father to the throne after he dies. At another he is more likely to be disinherited and die in exile or in a black cell. That's Martin's game of thrones.

6 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I really don't think it's reasonable to call it a "huge jump" that the heir to the throne would think he would become king.

It depends on when we are talking about. After Harrenhal probably not such a huge jump, but after the kidnapping and the break out of the rebellion, all bets are off, and Rhaegar cannot assume that he will remain Aerys's heir.

6 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Disinheriting the very popular Rhaegar would be a very risky move for Aerys to take, and if anything running off with Lyanna was rocking the boat less than he had been doing previously.

Here we disagree about the latter. Especially because we know from Jaime that Rhaegar doesn't kidnap Lyanna and take her to King's Landing to be under Aerys's control. If he does this, he just follows through on the threat he made at Harrenhal. But Rhaegar takes Lyanna and is nowhere to be found. Aerys can't be certain about Rhaegar's motives and he has to consider if this is some move by Rhaegar against him. Whatever is Rhaegar's motive, Aerys makes no changes after he declares war on the rebels. He thinks he can win without Rhaegar, and tries to prosecute the war as if it is no real threat. To his regret he finds he needs Rhaegar and his supporters and he brings in Connington when Rhaegar still cannot be found. So your first point comes true about how risky it would be to move against Rhaegar and his faction. However, during this period, somehow Elia and her children end up in King's Landing and under Aerys's control. Aerys now has a new hammer against Rhaegar and the Martells.

6 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

There are two paths for Rhaegar to become king. One is just waiting it out, the other is a coup of some type. So far Rhaegar had avoided making the attempt, obviously considering that it was more of a risk rocking the boat than waiting it out -- though we know he was getting closer and closer to pressing the button on a grand council. Aerys' triggering of the rebellion by his actions towards the Starks was a step to far for Rhaegar, who indicates to Jaime that "changes will be made" --  and he seems quite confident of that.

The only thing I would disagree with here is Rhaegar's confidence. It may or may not be the case, but by this time Rhaegar has no other real choice but to try his best to win against the rebels and come home the victorious hero with an army at his back.

6 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

One thing that's vitally important to Rhaegar in BOTH these scenarios is his popularity. A polygamous marriage might be something he could get away with, but it is certainly something that would hit is popularity. Would he be so sure of the support of the great houses, if he'd entered a polygamous marriage?

As i said, it's a serious gamble. One has to remember that the two houses most seriously effected - the Starks and the Baratheons are amongst those he must defeat militarily on the battlefield, so if he is looking to the future the threat is no more or less likely from those houses and their allies if he has a second wife. The main threat is what it does to Dornish support, and as long as Elia is respected and Aegon is his heir it would seem manageable.

6 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Let's consider this whole thing about getting away with a polygamous marriage. The Targs have a tradition of polygamy, and as the ruling house, the regular rules just don't apply to them the way they do apply to others. Thus Rhaegar would be relying on his position as Targ heir to have any chance of  getting away with it. Yet this exact same position means that he wouldn't need to get away with it (for the sake of Jon's legitimacy) as it would allow for the much less controversial legitimization of a bastard, too. 

I've just spent the whole first part of the post showing what I think are the political answers to why Rhaegar does what he does, and I think that's the right importance to place on politics, but to this last point I think the balance falls to both the personal and to Rhaegar's sense of importance of prophecy.  He loves Lyanna and what she wants matters. If, as I think I've shown, her character points to likely wanting this marriage then that matters to Rhaegar. I've also argued many times in the past that it appears Rhaegar's understanding of "the dragon has three heads" point to recreating in his children what the conquer and his sisters had. That's a polygamous marriage between a brother and his two sisters, not Aegon, Rhaenys, and the bastard brother Orys. Combine these factors with having the ability to marry in their own hands instead of waiting for fate to reveal the future, and I think this is the call they would have made. Is it a certainty? No, but I think it likely.

[Kingmonkey]

On 19/11/2016 at 7:59 AM, SFDanny said:

It depends on when we are talking about. After Harrenhal probably not such a huge jump, but after the kidnapping and the break out of the rebellion, all bets are off, and Rhaegar cannot assume that he will remain Aerys's heir.

I don't really see this. The rebellion is a knife pointed at Targ rule. That's surely reason to think his position more, not less, solid. Whatever Aerys' suspicions of what Rickard was up to, having Brandon turn up at King's Landing and demand Rhaegar's head creates a power division in Westeros with Aerys and Rhaegar on the same side. Indeed it's to Rhaegar that Aerys turns when things start looking hairy.

Wandering off like that to shack up with a mistress would certainly anger Aerys, but it's a pretty minor challenge to Aerys' authority compared to calling a grand council. What's more, there's no worse time for infighting than when you have an external enemy knocking at your door. So long as Rhaegar doesn't do anything too provocative, which arguably a polygamous marriage might constitute, he should be ok.

Quote

As i said, it's a serious gamble. One has to remember that the two houses most seriously effected - the Starks and the Baratheons are amongst those he must defeat militarily on the battlefield, so if he is looking to the future the threat is no more or less likely from those houses and their allies if he has a second wife. The main threat is what it does to Dornish support, and as long as Elia is respected and Aegon is his heir it would seem manageable.

This is a tough one to call. He'd also have to weigh the likelihood of a polygamous marriage causing Aerys to repudiate him, and it would be a weapon for any enemies to use against him in future. I'm not a believer that a polygamous marriage would be an impossibility by any stretch, but I think it would be more trouble than some supporters credit.

There's the SSM quoted in the FAQ dealing with polygamy and dragons, but it's put a little more strongly in this other SSM:

Quote

[Would polygamous marriages be accepted in Westeros today, especially if Targaryens were involved?]

If you have some huge fire-breathing dragons, you can get people to accept a lot of things that they might otherwise have problems with.

source

I think we can take it from this that if Rhaegar and Lyanna entered a polygamous marriage, people would have problems with it. It would at least be a politically dangerous move.

Quote

He loves Lyanna and what she wants matters. If, as I think I've shown, her character points to likely wanting this marriage then that matters to Rhaegar. I've also argued many times in the past that it appears Rhaegar's understanding of "the dragon has three heads" point to recreating in his children what the conquer and his sisters had. That's a polygamous marriage between a brother and his two sisters, not Aegon, Rhaenys, and the bastard brother Orys. Combine these factors with having the ability to marry in their own hands instead of waiting for fate to reveal the future, and I think this is the call they would have made. Is it a certainty? No, but I think it likely.

Would Aerion marrying Orys' mother have changed this? If Rhaegar is planning on fathering the third head on Lyanna, he's already given up on recreating the original trio precisely, as they were full siblings. There's also the naming problem -- while it seems quite reasonable to think that he was hoping to have a daughter rather than a son with Lyanna, if he's following the original model, shouldn't he have named his first daughter Visenya rather than Rhaena?

I think we're left with only what Lyanna thought. As you said, if she wanted the marriage, it would (probably) matter to Rhaegar. I don't think we're a million miles away on this. If it was important to her, would Rhaegar have taken the risk? That's a distinct possibility. I think we're a long way away from being able to guess Lyanna's wants though. We really don't have much to go on to judge her opinions of marriage. The Arya parallel has been pointed out a million times, and just as many times it's been pointed out that Lyanna was older and probably more pragmatic about these things. Arguably we might consider Sansa's much more pro-marriage views equally relevant (though I don't favour that interpretation of Sansa/Lyanna parallels). We should consider it a real possibility that marriage just wasn't that important to wolf-blooded Lyanna. 

When we add in the marriage being polygamous, I think Lyanna's wishes for a marriage have to look more distant. While this might be something that Targs have gotten away with in the past, it's hardly a Northern tradition. Thus we'd need to conclude that Lyanna not only wanted a marriage, but that she wanted it so much she was willing to put up with a polygamous one to get it. 

There is a very real possibility that wolf-blooded Lyanna just didn't really care about marriage. I find it very easy to believe that her response to Rhaegar's offer of a crown and fine silk gowns if she comes to bed with him might have gone something like:

 

Quote

 

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me.

I'll wear a gown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

ASOS ch.22

 

 

[SFDanny]

22 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I don't really see this. The rebellion is a knife pointed at Targ rule. That's surely reason to think his position more, not less, solid. Whatever Aerys' suspicions of what Rickard was up to, having Brandon turn up at King's Landing and demand Rhaegar's head creates a power division in Westeros with Aerys and Rhaegar on the same side. Indeed it's to Rhaegar that Aerys turns when things start looking hairy.

Wandering off like that to shack up with a mistress would certainly anger Aerys, but it's a pretty minor challenge to Aerys' authority compared to calling a grand council. What's more, there's no worse time for infighting than when you have an external enemy knocking at your door. So long as Rhaegar doesn't do anything too provocative, which arguably a polygamous marriage might constitute, he should be ok.

Well, give me more information and I might agree with you. With Rhaegar disappearing at the worst moment and staying gone until after the Battle of the Bells, I can't see our paranoid king just assuming Rhaegar is off having fun with the northern girl while the North, the Vale and the Stormlands resist his purge. I've got to believe the man who believes everyone is out to get him sees some threat behind Rhaegar's action. 

Add to this, Aerys doesn't believe defeating the rebels will be much of problem until the fighting in the Vale and Robert's victories prove him otherwise. It is only then he looks for Rhaegar, and settles on Connington.

Nor should we forget Stannis's remarks about how hard it was to choose between his duty to his brother and his duty to his king. Aerys and Varys may have had reason to think the Stormlands would not so easily unite behind Robert.

My real point is, however, if Rhaegar assumes he is safe and in line for the throne in this period, he is a fool. And I don't think he is a fool.

22 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

This is a tough one to call. He'd also have to weigh the likelihood of a polygamous marriage causing Aerys to repudiate him, and it would be a weapon for any enemies to use against him in future. I'm not a believer that a polygamous marriage would be an impossibility by any stretch, but I think it would be more trouble than some supporters credit.

I'm sorry, in this regard I'm talking about a future in which Aerys is already replaced by Rhaegar. I agree, I don't see it likely at all that Aerys would agree to a second marriage. This is strictly speaking the king's prerogative to choose Rhaegar's wife or wives. I think the only way he'd agree is if Lyanna flew into King's Landing on dragonback with a certificate of 100% Valyrian blood tattooed to sole of her foot.

And I don't want to minimize the fact there would still be some lords who would oppose a second marriage even if Rhaegar is already crowned. I just think it much more manageable as the victorious general and king, than as the Crown Prince. If the is the victorious general, and he calls a Great Council to replace his father, I don't think this is the issue that decides whether or not to replace Aerys. By this time everyone, including his supporters know he is totally crazy. If I'm Rhaegar, I marry Viserys to Cersei, and make it clear to the Martells that Aegon is his heir. That should settle the matter. The Tyrells he puts on the small council, and if they don't like it he puts the strong houses of the reach there and threatens Mace with bringing Gardener blood back to the High Lordship.

22 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

There's the SSM quoted in the FAQ dealing with polygamy and dragons, but it's put a little more strongly in this other SSM:

I think we can take it from this that if Rhaegar and Lyanna entered a polygamous marriage, people would have problems with it. It would at least be a politically dangerous move.

What the SSM means to me is that for a king to impose his will in whatever area he wants he has to have political dominance in his hands. Dragons are certainly tools to that dominance, but they are not the only way to achieve it. A post rebellion in which Rhaegar is victorious and has replaced his father on the throne sounds like a fairly dominate position to me. I'm not saying it is impossible to lose that position, but I would like his odds.

22 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Would Aerion marrying Orys' mother have changed this? If Rhaegar is planning on fathering the third head on Lyanna, he's already given up on recreating the original trio precisely, as they were full siblings. There's also the naming problem -- while it seems quite reasonable to think that he was hoping to have a daughter rather than a son with Lyanna, if he's following the original model, shouldn't he have named his first daughter Visenya rather than Rhaena?

It looks to me as if this interpretation of prophecy by Rhaegar comes once he believes Aegon is TPWWP. He does so after seeing a comet on the night Aegon is conceived, or so Maester Aemon tells us. That would explain why he names his first daughter Rhaenys instead of Visenya. Rhaegar is struggling with this prophecy to make it work, and as usual, when people try to do so they get it wrong. We are not looking, for the moment, at what the prophecy really means or if it even matters. It mattered to Rhaegar and figuring what was in his head at this time is the real point.

The three headed dragon is more than the adopted symbol of the Targaryen House. It is a reference to the three Targaryens who won the throne over most of Westeros. Why Rhaegar has determined his children must recreate the three headed dragon as necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled we don't know, but it looks to me that he has.

22 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I think we're left with only what Lyanna thought. As you said, if she wanted the marriage, it would (probably) matter to Rhaegar. I don't think we're a million miles away on this. If it was important to her, would Rhaegar have taken the risk? That's a distinct possibility. I think we're a long way away from being able to guess Lyanna's wants though. We really don't have much to go on to judge her opinions of marriage. The Arya parallel has been pointed out a million times, and just as many times it's been pointed out that Lyanna was older and probably more pragmatic about these things. Arguably we might consider Sansa's much more pro-marriage views equally relevant (though I don't favour that interpretation of Sansa/Lyanna parallels). We should consider it a real possibility that marriage just wasn't that important to wolf-blooded Lyanna.

I agree with you here. I think I'm reading some evidence more strongly than you, but I don't discount any of the alternative reads you're suggesting.

22 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

When we add in the marriage being polygamous, I think Lyanna's wishes for a marriage have to look more distant. While this might be something that Targs have gotten away with in the past, it's hardly a Northern tradition. Thus we'd need to conclude that Lyanna not only wanted a marriage, but that she wanted it so much she was willing to put up with a polygamous one to get it. 

I agree, but Rhaegar's thoughts obviously enter into this, and we have to ask ourselves would Rhaegar go as far as to disinherit his children and set aside Elia in order to meet Lyanna's wish for a marriage, if she demands one. I think this is too far a step to ask of Rhaegar even if he is only "fond" of Elia. His children clearly matter to him, even if it is only how they pertain to prophecy. I see no reason to conclude that is the case, but if was he isn't going to set aside Aegon and Rhaenys.

So, yes, I think this is a comprise both of them take, and would want in the circumstances.

22 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

There is a very real possibility that wolf-blooded Lyanna just didn't really care about marriage. I find it very easy to believe that her response to Rhaegar's offer of a crown and fine silk gowns if she comes to bed with him might have gone something like:

You could well be right, and it is great passage, but I read the following and think the Lyanna we see here is some one who stands up to what she thinks is injustice, not just convention, and the hell with the odds.

Quote

"Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran. The little crannogman was walking across the field, enjoying  the warm spring day and harming none, when he was set upon by three squires. They were none older than fifteen, yet even so they were bigger than him, all three. They snatched away his spear and knocked him to the ground, cursing him for a frogeater."

"Were they Walders?" It sounded like something Little Walder Frey might have done.

"None offered a name, but he marked their faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later. They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf."

"A wolf on four legs or two?"

"Two," said Meera. "The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all." (ASoS 281) bold emphasis added

She seems like a fighter against injustice to me. Imagine if she felt the injustice was being dealt out upon her own child?

 

 

[purple-eyes]

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Well, give me more information and I might agree with you. With Rhaegar disappearing at the worst moment and staying gone until after the Battle of the Bells, I can't see our paranoid king just assuming Rhaegar is off having fun with the northern girl while the North, the Vale and the Stormlands resist his purge. I've got to believe the man who believes everyone is out to get him sees some threat behind Rhaegar's action. 

Add to this, Aerys doesn't believe defeating the rebels will be much of problem until the fighting in the Vale and Robert's victories prove him otherwise. It is only then he looks for Rhaegar, and settles on Connington.

Nor should we forget Stannis's remarks about how hard it was to choose between his duty to his brother and his duty to his king. Aerys and Varys may have had reason to think the Stormlands would not so easily unite behind Robert.

My real point is, however, if Rhaegar assumes he is safe and in line for the throne in this period, he is a fool. And I don't think he is a fool.

I'm sorry, in this regard I'm talking about a future in which Aerys is already replaced by Rhaegar. I agree, I don't see it likely at all that Aerys would agree to a second marriage. This is strictly speaking the king's prerogative to choose Rhaegar's wife or wives. I think the only way he'd agree is if Lyanna flew into King's Landing on dragonback with a certificate of 100% Valyrian blood tattooed to sole of her foot.

And I don't want to minimize the fact there would still be some lords who would oppose a second marriage even if Rhaegar is already crowned. I just think it much more manageable as the victorious general and king, than as the Crown Prince. If the is the victorious general, and he calls a Great Council to replace his father, I don't think this is the issue that decides whether or not to replace Aerys. By this time everyone, including his supporters know he is totally crazy. If I'm Rhaegar, I marry Viserys to Cersei, and make it clear to the Martells that Aegon is his heir. That should settle the matter. The Tyrells he puts on the small council, and if they don't like it he puts the strong houses of the reach there and threatens Mace with bringing Gardener blood back to the High Lordship.

What the SSM means to me is that for a king to impose his will in whatever area he wants he has to have political dominance in his hands. Dragons are certainly tools to that dominance, but they are not the only way to achieve it. A post rebellion in which Rhaegar is victorious and has replaced his father on the throne sounds like a fairly dominate position to me. I'm not saying it is impossible to lose that position, but I would like his odds.

It looks to me as if this interpretation of prophecy by Rhaegar comes once he believes Aegon is TPWWP. He does so after seeing a comet on the night Aegon is conceived, or so Maester Aemon tells us. That would explain why he names his first daughter Rhaenys instead of Visenya. Rhaegar is struggling with this prophecy to make it work, and as usual, when people try to do so they get it wrong. We are not looking, for the moment, at what the prophecy really means or if it even matters. It mattered to Rhaegar and figuring what was in his head at this time is the real point.

The three headed dragon is more than the adopted symbol of the Targaryen House. It is a reference to the three Targaryens who won the throne over most of Westeros. Why Rhaegar has determined his children must recreate the three headed dragon as necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled we don't know, but it looks to me that he has.

 

Actually no woman would want to become a mistress if she can become a wife and queen. there is no doubt about that. 

Lyanna absolutely wants a marriage and, by extension, status of future queen of Westeros. 

No matter how wild and free spirited she is. she is a woman after all. She loved Rhaegar so she would surely want to claim him officially and exclusively. Absolutely. period. 

The question is if Rhaegar has marriage to offer or not.  

And I would say he has, after officially annulling his first marriage.

This is probably what he did. But he held it as a secret after he noticed he needed Martell's army to guard his new wife from Robert. 

It might be hard for a prince to annul his marriage (have children already), but it is not impossible, especially when Rhaegar is very popular among noblemen and small folks. 

Even Renly suggested Robert to set aside Cersei. They have three kids and Cersei is from a very powerful house. It sounds not a big deal. 

 

[Yukle]

16 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

No matter how wild and free spirited she is. she is a woman after all. She loved Rhaegar so she would surely want to claim him officially and exclusively. Absolutely. period. 

The question is if Rhaegar has marriage to offer or not.  

And I would say he has, after officially annulling his first marriage.

I think all this sounds right, except for the part where Rhaegar annuls his marriage. That would make his existing heirs illegitimate, which is a dangerous ploy, and it costs his house the loyalty of Dorne. He arranged the Tourney of Harrenhal, so he knew which houses were already moving to depose Aerys II, and would have known that it was a far from sure bet that he'd have support from most Lords. Varys was still Master of Whispers, too, meaning Rhaegar was certainly well informed.

I can't see any reason why he'd not just take a second wife. Aegon had already done this, and the Faith wasn't really angry that fact from what we know, it was the fact they were his sisters that angered them. Aegon IV more or less did this, too, since he legitimised his bastards. It's not the same as marrying his mistresses, but it certainly led to the same outcome for his descendants.

Rhaegar's only risk in marrying a Northerner woman and a Dornish woman is that it meant he'd be allying himself to the two least culturally alike and most sparely populated Great Houses.

And, as you say, Lyanna was a woman. Just as Rhaegar was a man. Just about any person, man or woman, would want to hold onto power and Rhaegar would prefer to marry two wives than to risk losing an alliance. There'd be romantic symmetry to it, too: Just like Aegon he married once for duty and once for love.

As much as it would have annoyed Lyanna, if it's Rhaegar with Elia or nothing... well, from Lyanna's perspective, Elia probably wasn't going to live much longer. She could've convinced herself it was only a temporary arrangement until she was the only queen.

[SFDanny]

17 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Actually no woman would want to become a mistress if she can become a wife and queen. there is no doubt about that. 

Lyanna absolutely wants a marriage and, by extension, status of future queen of Westeros. 

No matter how wild and free spirited she is. she is a woman after all. She loved Rhaegar so she would surely want to claim him officially and exclusively. Absolutely. period. 

The question is if Rhaegar has marriage to offer or not.  

And I would say he has, after officially annulling his first marriage.

This is probably what he did. But he held it as a secret after he noticed he needed Martell's army to guard his new wife from Robert. 

It might be hard for a prince to annul his marriage (have children already), but it is not impossible, especially when Rhaegar is very popular among noblemen and small folks. 

Even Renly suggested Robert to set aside Cersei. They have three kids and Cersei is from a very powerful house. It sounds not a big deal. 

 

What does it take to annul a marriage? It takes a Council of Faith or the High Septon acting - presumably a very public act - upon the word of at least one of the two parties to the marriage saying the marriage was never consummated. Could you tell me just how this was done by Rhaegar while he was in hiding from his father and couldn't be found? Did he sneak into King's Landing and organize this? How did he convince the High Septon or Council that the marriage wasn't consummated with two children as evidence, and a wife and her family who would object? Oh, yes, and how did he do this without his father stopping it - the king, you remember him? - who almost certainly would object. In fact we know Aegon is Rhaegar's heir up until after the Trident when the King decides to switch his heir to Viserys. This is done for what purpose? To get the Starks to switch sides? If so, that didn't work out so well did it? This is total complete nonsense. As usually this is just going on about what you would want to happen, as opposed to what we have evidence did happen.

If you want, PE, let me acknowledge I understand you really, really don't like the idea of polygamy. I get that, really I do. But what you want, or what I want Martin to do has nothing to do with what is likely he is doing in his story. Please, try reading his story, and find the evidence he lays out, instead of stating your bias as fact.

[purple-eyes]

5 hours ago, Yukle said:

I think all this sounds right, except for the part where Rhaegar annuls his marriage. That would make his existing heirs illegitimate, which is a dangerous ploy, and it costs his house the loyalty of Dorne. He arranged the Tourney of Harrenhal, so he knew which houses were already moving to depose Aerys II, and would have known that it was a far from sure bet that he'd have support from most Lords. Varys was still Master of Whispers, too, meaning Rhaegar was certainly well informed.

I can't see any reason why he'd not just take a second wife. Aegon had already done this, and the Faith wasn't really angry that fact from what we know, it was the fact they were his sisters that angered them. Aegon IV more or less did this, too, since he legitimised his bastards. It's not the same as marrying his mistresses, but it certainly led to the same outcome for his descendants.

Rhaegar's only risk in marrying a Northerner woman and a Dornish woman is that it meant he'd be allying himself to the two least culturally alike and most sparely populated Great Houses.

And, as you say, Lyanna was a woman. Just as Rhaegar was a man. Just about any person, man or woman, would want to hold onto power and Rhaegar would prefer to marry two wives than to risk losing an alliance. There'd be romantic symmetry to it, too: Just like Aegon he married once for duty and once for love.

As much as it would have annoyed Lyanna, if it's Rhaegar with Elia or nothing... well, from Lyanna's perspective, Elia probably wasn't going to live much longer. She could've convinced herself it was only a temporary arrangement until she was the only queen.

Lyanna is very wild and headstrong and free spirited and loves to seek justice, she would never want to share her lover and husband with another woman, even just by name only. By the way, a second wife probably would not be respected as much as the first one. (Visenya and Rhaenys married Aegon at the same time). especially she eloped with Rhaegat which is not good for a queen at all in people's mind. Many people would call her northern whore.  like Alys Harrowway. and she would worry about her her and children's future after Rhaegar dies and Aegon became king. She has a lof of reasons to worry new king Aegon would revenge his mistreated mother.  

therefore, she needs to ask rhaegar to annul his first marriage and make Aegon and Rhaenys bastards, to protect her children. three dragon heads stuff would not be an issue. because Lyanna would believe she can give Rhaegar many new children since she is very young and strong. By this way, she will be the only wife with all power of a sole queen. Her child will be future king or queen. 

and Rhaegar loved her very deeply so he would obey her. Otherwise Lyanna could simply refuse to sleep with him and birth a baby for him. 

Martell would not be happy but Rhaegar and Lyanna can hold Elia and children as hostage, like sent them to faith in KL, therefore Martell can not do anything. 

I think this is Rhaegar and Lyanna's plan. 

 

 

 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

What does it take to annul a marriage? It takes a Council of Faith or the High Septon acting - presumably a very public act - upon the word of at least one of the two parties to the marriage saying the marriage was never consummated. Could you tell me just how this was done by Rhaegar while he was in hiding from his father and couldn't be found? Did he sneak into King's Landing and organize this? How did he convince the High Septon or Council that the marriage wasn't consummated with two children as evidence, and a wife and her family who would object? Oh, yes, and how did he do this without his father stopping it - the king, you remember him? - who almost certainly would object. In fact we know Aegon is Rhaegar's heir up until after the Trident when the King decides to switch his heir to Viserys. This is done for what purpose? To get the Starks to switch sides? If so, that didn't work out so well did it? This is total complete nonsense. As usually this is just going on about what you would want to happen, as opposed to what we have evidence did happen.

If you want, PE, let me acknowledge I understand you really, really don't like the idea of polygamy. I get that, really I do. But what you want, or what I want Martin to do has nothing to do with what is likely he is doing in his story. Please, try reading his story, and find the evidence he lays out, instead of stating your bias as fact.

Of course it is hard to annul a royal marriage. However,  Rhaegar is in crazy love and he is even willing to die for Lyanna, not to mention get "divorced" for her. So he will do it if that is wish of Lyanna. 

And we know Lyanna surely wants a sole marriage with her lover. Lyanna is not a woman who would settle down as a "second wife". She cares a lot about status ( she insisted Howland to go to the feast because she said Howland is also a nobleman and deserves to be there as other men). plus She would think it is an unfaithful thing to her if Rhaegar still keeps Elia as his wife (even only in name). We very well know Lyanna hates to have an unfaithful husband. 

Why would Aerys be against Rhaegar for annuling his marriage? He disliked Dornish people already. He did not like Elia and her children at all. 

[SFDanny]

44 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Of course it is hard to annul a royal marriage. However,  Rhaegar is in crazy love and he is even willing to die for Lyanna, not to mention get "divorced" for her. So he will do it if that is wish of Lyanna. 

Again you miss my point. We have no evidence that Rhaegar wanted to annul his marriage to Elia and disinherit his children, one of whom he thinks is the coming Prince Who Was Promised, but let us assume you're right and he wants to do so in order to marry Lyanna. What I want to know is how does he do it? We know he is no where to be found after the kidnapping, or at least Aerys can't find him. We know that Jaime tells us Rhaegar is not in King's Landing when Brandon and his company come demanding a duel. We know after Aerys removes his Hand, Lord Merryweather, Rhaegar can't be found and Connington is put in as Hand, and we know after the Battle of the Bells the Crown Prince is finally found, and he comes north to take up the role of military commander of the loyalist army he has to build to defeat the rebels.

During the many months of his absence from King's Landing how does he sneak into King's Landing to organize this secret annulment of a marriage against not only his wife's wishes, but against the wishes of her family, and against the wishes of the king? How does he do it? This is the timeframe he has to annul the marriage, if he is to follow it with a marriage to Lyanna. How does he involve the High Septon in this secret conspiracy, and maintain his secrecy in his hiding from his father throughout this period? Is it Harry Potter's invisibility cloak that does the trick? Mesmerism used against the High Septon? Just how do you think Rhaegar can do, what looks like to be, the impossible?

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

And we know Lyanna surely wants a sole marriage with her lover. Lyanna is not a woman who would settle down as a "second wife". She cares a lot about status ( she insisted Howland to go to the feast because she said Howland is also a nobleman and deserves to be there as other men). plus She would think it is an unfaithful thing to her if Rhaegar still keeps Elia as his wife (even only in name). We very well know Lyanna hates to have an unfaithful husband.

Other than the last point here, which we know about from her talk with Ned concerning Robert's nature - not Rhaegar's, just how do you have evidence supporting anything you claim about Lyanna? For instance, we know Lyanna goes against her father's will to learn how to fight, and we know she steps in and attacks the bullies who are kicking Howland Reed. What do those things, or others, tell us how she would react to a second marriage? I'm not interested here in what every woman would do, according to you, but to what evidence you have that Lyanna would react one way or the other? Please understand me, I don't claim I know with any certainty how she would react. I think there are clues that she might accept, under certain conditions. What I'm looking for is a reasoned argument that is based on the evidence in the books or from the author that backs your claim.

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

 Why would Aerys be against Rhaegar for annuling his marriage? He disliked Dornish people already. He did not like Elia and her children at all. 

There is the fact we know Aerys doesn't remove Aegon from the succession until after Rhaegar's death. Yes, he disliked and mistrusted the Dornish, but that doesn't indicate he preferred the Northmen who have been trying to remove him from the throne! Aerys's paranoia about Dornish support is, as far as we can tell, just that - paranoid fears of a diseased mind. But the history of the rebellion tells us that for a year the North is in collusion with others to kill their king, Why would he trust Rhaegar and Lyanna's child to succeed him to the throne?

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Again you miss my point. We have no evidence that Rhaegar wanted to annul his marriage to Elia and disinherit his children, one of whom he thinks is the coming Prince Who Was Promised, but let us assume you're right and he wants to do so in order to marry Lyanna. What I want to know is how does he do it? We know he is no where to be found after the kidnapping, or at least Aerys can't find him. We know that Jaime tells us Rhaegar is not in King's Landing when Brandon and his company come demanding a duel. We know after Aerys removes his Hand, Lord Merryweather, Rhaegar can't be found and Connington is put in as Hand, and we know after the Battle of the Bells the Crown Prince is finally found, and he comes north to take up the role of military commander of the loyalist army he has to build to defeat the rebels.

During the many months of his absence from King's Landing how does he sneak into King's Landing to organize this secret annulment of a marriage against not only his wife's wishes, but against the wishes of her family, and against the wishes of the king? How does he do it? This is the timeframe he has to annul the marriage, if he is to follow it with a marriage to Lyanna. How does he involve the High Septon in this secret conspiracy, and maintain his secrecy in his hiding from his father throughout this period? Is it Harry Potter's invisibility cloak that does the trick? Mesmerism used against the High Septon? Just how do you think Rhaegar can do, what looks like to be, the impossible?

Other than the last point here, which we know about from her talk with Ned concerning Robert's nature - not Rhaegar's, just how do you have evidence supporting anything you claim about Lyanna? For instance, we know Lyanna goes against her father's will to learn how to fight, and we know she steps in and attacks the bullies who are kicking Howland Reed. What do those things, or others, tell us how she would react to a second marriage? I'm not interested here in what every woman would do, according to you, but to what evidence you have that Lyanna would react one way or the other? Please understand me, I don't claim I know with any certainty how she would react. I think there are clues that she might accept, under certain conditions. What I'm looking for is a reasoned argument that is based on the evidence in the books or from the author that backs your claim.

There is the fact we know Aerys doesn't remove Aegon from the succession until after Rhaegar's death. Yes, he disliked and mistrusted the Dornish, but that doesn't indicate he preferred the Northmen who have been trying to remove him from the throne! Aerys's paranoia about Dornish support is, as far as we can tell, just that - paranoid fears of a diseased mind. But the history of the rebellion tells us that for a year the North is in collusion with others to kill their king, Why would he trust Rhaegar and Lyanna's child to succeed him to the throne?

Let me ask you, Where are the clues that Lyanna might compromise and accept something she does not like (please do not say Lyanna likes to be a "second wife" and share her true love with another woman)? She is anything but compromise. 

All the things she did clearly proved that she would not accept anything she does not like. Her father's wishes, Howland's being bullied, Howland's refusal to attend feast, her arranged marriage, which one did she accept? none of them! 

She will not accept the things she does not like. 

That is what GRRM told us about Lyanna using many facts. 

How did you conclude that Lyanna would reluctantly accept the fact that she has to become a mistress or a "second wife"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Let me ask you, Where are the clues that Lyanna might compromise and accept something she does not like (please do not say Lyanna likes to be a "second wife" and share her true love with another woman)? She is anything but compromise. 

All the things she did clearly proved that she would not accept anything she does not like. Her father's wishes, Howland's being bullied, Howland's refusal to attend feast, her arranged marriage, which one did she accept? none of them! 

She will not accept the things she does not like. 

That is what GRRM told us about Lyanna using many facts. 

How did you conclude that Lyanna would reluctantly accept the fact that she has to become a mistress or a "second wife"?

Before responding to the above, let me note you did not respond at all to the questions I put to you regarding how was an annulment possible given all of what we know. This being fiction, nothing is entirely impossible, but as I outline in the last post this is a close as we can get to being impossible within the parameters of fiction. One has to imagine secret travels and meetings that not only we don't have any evidence of, but whose proposed results run counter to the history we know. But let me leave this question there and deal with your estimation of Lyanna and her character.

You obviously have come to the conclusion that Lyanna is a five year old girl masquerading in a fourteen to sixteen year old young woman's body. In short, a spoiled brat who must always have her way. While I disagree with this estimation, I also freely admit we have little to work with here and that certainly effects the strength of the conclusions we can draw. 

My major disagreement with your conclusion is that it is too superficial and doesn't look at the content of the actions in question. Most importantly the response to the bullying of Howland Reed. Lyanna is acting on an injustice done to another, not throwing a temper tantrum because she doesn't get her way. Does she like the fact Howland is being beaten and called a "frogeater"? Of course not! But her reaction is one of empathy, not based on a spoiled brat not getting her way. That is even more true if, as I and many other suspect, she is the Knight of the Laughing Tree who risks scandal and her own neck to challenge the three knights in the tourney in order to teach a valuable lesson, not only to three unnamed squires, but to the all the assembled at the tourney about how to treat those whose culture is different than one's own. She seats Howland at her own table as an equal. That runs counter, I believe, to your view of her as only someone who "will not accept the things she does not like."

I think this is the "iron" in Lyanna's character that Ned tells Robert he never knew. A young woman willing to stand up to power and speak her mind, as Ned claims she would have done with Robert. I would ask you remember also how much Ned loved his sister and have to ask if you think if she was acting out brat you describe would that still be the case?

It is this combination of empathy and iron that strike me. The place it strikes me most is in Ned's words to Arya, in which he talks to her of Lyanna's "wolf's blood" and how it brought her to a early grave. I don't think Ned think either Brandon or Lyanna acted out of anger in not getting their way. No, I think both of them thought a great injustice was being done. The irony is that they likely saw it as injustice from the different sides of the same act. And one can argue they both were right.

So, pardon me, but I think your read of Lyanna is dead wrong. Of course, as I told @Kingmonkey there are different ways to look a this. I just think when people say why they think a character is like a certain way they should back it up as much as they can with evidence.

Lastly, let me make a comment about Lyanna not liking to be a second wife. I think whether she liked it or not, if may have been the best option available to her. But more than that, I don't like to put my moral code on fictional characters. I'd rather explore with the author seeing things for other's points of view. In our own world polygamy and polyamory are practiced, and even if I'm not one who does so, I see no reason to reject characters choices out of hand.

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Before responding to the above, let me note you did not respond at all to the questions I put to you regarding how was an annulment possible given all of what we know. This being fiction, nothing is entirely impossible, but as I outline in the last post this is a close as we can get to being impossible within the parameters of fiction. One has to imagine secret travels and meetings that not only we don't have any evidence of, but whose proposed results run counter to the history we know. But let me leave this question there and deal with your estimation of Lyanna and her character.

You obviously have come to the conclusion that Lyanna is a five year old girl masquerading in a fourteen to sixteen year old young woman's body. In short, a spoiled brat who must always have her way. While I disagree with this estimation, I also freely admit we have little to work with here and that certainly effects the strength of the conclusions we can draw. 

My major disagreement with your conclusion is that it is too superficial and doesn't look at the content of the actions in question. Most importantly the response to the bullying of Howland Reed. Lyanna is acting on an injustice done to another, not throwing a temper tantrum because she doesn't get her way. Does she like the fact Howland is being beaten and called a "frogeater"? Of course not! But her reaction is one of empathy, not based on a spoiled brat not getting her way. That is even more true if, as I and many other suspect, she is the Knight of the Laughing Tree who risks scandal and her own neck to challenge the three knights in the tourney in order to teach a valuable lesson, not only to three unnamed squires, but to the all the assembled at the tourney about how to treat those whose culture is different than one's own. She seats Howland at her own table as an equal. That runs counter, I believe, to your view of her as only someone who "will not accept the things she does not like."

I think this is the "iron" in Lyanna's character that Ned tells Robert he never knew. A young woman willing to stand up to power and speak her mind, as Ned claims she would have done with Robert. I would ask you remember also how much Ned loved his sister and have to ask if you think if she was acting out brat you describe would that still be the case?

It is this combination of empathy and iron that strike me. The place it strikes me most is in Ned's words to Arya, in which he talks to her of Lyanna's "wolf's blood" and how it brought her to a early grave. I don't think Ned think either Brandon or Lyanna acted out of anger in not getting their way. No, I think both of them thought a great injustice was being done. The irony is that they likely saw it as injustice from the different sides of the same act. And one can argue they both were right.

So, pardon me, but I think your read of Lyanna is dead wrong. Of course, as I told @Kingmonkey there are different ways to look a this. I just think when people say why they think a character is like a certain way they should back it up as much as they can with evidence.

Lastly, let me make a comment about Lyanna not liking to be a second wife. I think whether she liked it or not, if may have been the best option available to her. But more than that, I don't like to put my moral code on fictional characters. I'd rather explore with the author seeing things for others points of view. In our own world polygamy and polyamory are practiced, and even if I'm not one who does so, I see no reason to reject characters choices out of hand.

Wow, hold your horses. it sounds like Lyanna is the avatar of justice in your mind. "teach people a valuable lesson that how people should treat those whose culture is different". Wow again. 

What we saw is that, she shouted: this is my father's bannerman you are kicking!". (not exact words) 

See? her motivation is not about culture respecting which you like to paint, but about her father's men can not be beaten. Ha, did she investigate if howland did something wrong? did she try to figure out what is the reason of fighting? no, just because he is her father's man, then they can not beat him. Is this really justly? So her father's men had to be right? 

No matter how Rhaegar loved her, he is still a married man with two children. Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar, is this justly towards Elia and two young children? What? "teach people a lesson that if a husband fall in love with a younger woman, please feel free to run away even his wife almost died to deliver his new baby"? i failed to see any possible justice in this action, (unless Aegon is baby of another guy)

by the way, Lyanna is quite likely a spoiled child.

Why GRRM wrote that she dropped a glass of wine on Benjen's head in a royal feast just because he laughed at her? is this a good behavior? technically he only needed to tell us Lyanna sniffled at Rhaegar's songs. 

This is why GRRM is a great author, no need to tell us if Lyanna is a spoiled and impulsive child, just give you a small fact and let you figure out.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

Wow, hold your horses. it sounds like Lyanna is the avatar of justice in your mind. "teach people a valuable lesson that how people should treat those whose culture is different". Wow again. 

What we saw is that, she shouted: this is my father's bannerman you are kicking!". (not exact words) 

See? her motivation is not about culture respecting which you like to paint, but about her father's men can not be beaten. Ha, did she investigate if howland did something wrong? did she try to figure out what is the reason of fighting? no, just because he is her father's man, then they can not beat him. Is this really justly? So her father's men had to be right? 

No matter how Rhaegar loved her, he is still a married man with two children. Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar, is this justly towards Elia and two young children? What? "teach people a lesson that if a husband fall in love with a younger woman, please feel free to run away even his wife almost died to deliver his new baby"? i failed to see any possible justice in this action, (unless Aegon is baby of another guy)

by the way, Lyanna is quite likely a spoiled child.

Why GRRM wrote that she dropped a glass of wine on Benjen's head in a royal feast just because he laughed at her? is this a good behavior? technically he only needed to tell us Lyanna sniffled at Rhaegar's songs. 

This is why GRRM is a great author, no need to tell us if Lyanna is a spoiled and impulsive child, just give you a small fact and let you figure out.   

And figure it out in most peculiar ways, you do!

I've no doubt that the fact Howland is her father's bannerman makes her feel responsible for him. But we see no one else springing to his defense, even her brothers. Perhaps they were not there when this happened and perhaps all the other good knights were looking in some other direction, but nonetheless it is our "avatar of justice," as you call her, who springs into action, and no other, to save the "frogeater" from further harm. It does not sound like a spoiled brat to me. It sounds like some one who doesn't think ganging up on a young man because of where he comes from is a way for anyone to behave, and she's willing to risk herself in order to stop it.

A spoiled child? Perhaps, in some ways. She certainly has the advantages of being a High Lord's daughter, but her brothers all have the advantages of being a High Lord's son, and I don't hear anyone calling them spoiled. Well, with the possible exception of Brandon, but that's a different story. Lyanna gets to be raised in a life that includes being educated and she learns the possibilities of perhaps stretching the world she inhabits to include new options. That's a kind of being spoiled I suppose. We have no evidence that being spoiled is why she runs away with Rhaegar. And certainly we have nothing that points to her wanting Rhaegar to disown his wife, annul his marriage, and disinherit his children. We do have evidence that her character includes empathy for others, including those less fortunate than a High Lord's child.

[purple-eyes]

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And figure it out in most peculiar ways, you do!

I've no doubt that the fact Howland is her father's bannerman makes her feel responsible for him. But we see no one else springing to his defense, even her brothers. Perhaps they were not there when this happened and perhaps all the other good knights were looking in some other direction, but nonetheless it is our "avatar of justice," as you call her, who springs into action, and no other, to save the "frogeater" from further harm. It does not sound like a spoiled brat to me. It sounds like some one who doesn't think ganging up on a young man because of where he comes from is a way for anyone to behave, and she's willing to risk herself in order to stop it.

A spoiled child? Perhaps, in some ways. She certainly has the advantages of being a High Lord's daughter, but her brothers all have the advantages of being a High Lord's son, and I don't hear anyone calling them spoiled. Well, with the possible exception of Brandon, but that's a different story. Lyanna gets to be raised in a life that includes being educated and she learns the possibilities of perhaps stretching the world she inhabits to include new options. That's a kind of being spoiled I suppose. We have no evidence that being spoiled is why she runs away with Rhaegar. And certainly we have nothing that points to her wanting Rhaegar to disown his wife, annul his marriage, and disinherit his children. We do have evidence that her character includes empathy for others, including those less fortunate than a High Lord's child.

how do you know Lyanna knows Howland was beaten "because of where he is from" when she  took action and beat those three young boys? GRRM did not say that. GRRM said Lyanna saved him because he is her father's bannerman. it looks like she did not know the reason of fighting at that moment. More like when a middle school student sees somebody is beating his buddy: oh, somebody is beating my friend, I need to help him! No time to figure out the detailed reason. That fits her age of 13-14 years old and wild, impulsive nature. What you said "teach a valuable lesson on how people should treat those who come from different culture", I do not think she think that much at that moment.