Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ygrain

R+L=J v.162

Recommended Posts

On 7/24/2016 at 10:06 AM, Ygrain said:

Well, I do think that it plays all towards Rhaegar being honourable aka doing what a honourable man was supposed to do when he wanted to do right by his lady, but there is an even better quote for this:

“What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

Robert claims that Rhaegar acted dishonourably towards Lyanna, to which Ned points out aloud that Robert already took his revenge on Rhaegar, but in his mind the mention of Rhaegar's honour, or lack thereof, evokes a promise to Lyanna. Now, if the promise somehow concerned the supposed dishonour, there is no reason for Ned not to share it with Robert, just like he told him about the promise to bury Lyanna at Winterfell. Therefore, I surmise that the content of the promise was something that Robert couldn't be told, and in the context of Rhaegar's supposed lack of honour, it would be the very opposite of what Robert thinks - that Rhaegar didn't dishonour Lyanna. And that would only mean marriage, because consensual but non-marital sex would still be dishonour to Lyanna. This particular promise would then concern not revealing that Jon is trueborn.

It is unlikely that Ned believed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.  Otherwise, he would have referred to Elia as "Rhaegar's first wife" or "one of Rhaegar's wives."  Instead, he remembers that "Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty."  And he would not have thought of Jon, in his private thoughts, as a bastard:  "Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.  If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts."  

If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, Ned either did not know about it or he did not believe the marriage to be valid.  

And consensual non-marital sex is not necessarily considered dishonorable for a highborn lady.  Melissa Blackwood gave Aegon IV a bastard son and her family was so honored by that, they built a statue of her in their godswood (much like Ned put a statue of Lyanna in his family crypts).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

It is unlikely that Ned believed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.  

And highly unlikely for GRRM to impart those thoughts inside Ned's mind.  You kiddn' me? It's the first book and GRRM is gonna shell out legitimate Jon already?

He already impart those clues of Jon being royal blood in various ways:

With Arya: bastards aren't allow to damage young princes, bruises they have should only come from trueborn swords.

With Robb: Married the woman he slept with to save her honor soon after, because it was the only honorable thing to do.. 

With his NW brothers: saying that Mance's blood is no more royal than his own.

With Ygritte/Val: stealing = marriage; if he's not gelded/killed, she is his wife; acknowledged by Dany, how Rhaegar stole his "northern girl"

With the Wall/oldgods/Weirwood: swears oath, pledged himself; just as his Father pledged himself to Lady Stark.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

And highly unlikely for GRRM to impart those thoughts inside Ned's mind.  You kiddn' me? It's the first book and GRRM is gonna shell out legitimate Jon already?

He already impart those clues of Jon being royal blood in various ways:

With Arya: bastards aren't allow to damage young princes, bruises they have should only come from trueborn swords.

With Robb: Married the woman he slept with to save her honor soon after, because it was the only honorable thing to do.. 

With his NW brothers: saying that Mance's blood is no more royal than his own.

With Ygritte/Val: stealing = marriage; if he's not gelded/killed, she is his wife; acknowledged by Dany, how Rhaegar stole his "northern girl"

With the Wall/oldgods/Weirwood: swears oath, pledged himself; just as his Father pledged himself to Lady Stark.

 

Ned not believing Rhaegar and Lyanna were married doesn't mean they weren't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

The quote from Jorah is not about the manner in which Rhaegar fought one on one against Robert.  It is about the kind of army he led -- free men, sworn to him, rather than men whose loyalty was bought. 

Remember, Jorah and Dany are talking about whether to buy a slave army.  Dany says:  "Viserys would have bought as many Unsullied as he had the coin for.   But you said I was like Rhaegar."  Then:  "Prince Rhaegar led free men into battle, not slaves."  And:  "did they give their lives because the believed in Rhaegar's cause, or because they had been bought and paid for?"  That is when Jorah responds:  "all you say is true.  But Rhaegar lost on the Trident.  He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life."   

Yes, I know the context. But even in the context of what kind of army Rhaegar led, the "fought honourably" part is a peculiar thing to say because it doesn't fit there.

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

The point here is that Jorah is not telling Dany that Robert won because he fought dirty while Rhaegar practiced chivalry in single combat.  It is to tell her that if she wants to win her father's kingdom back, she needs to put aside her scruples about buying a slave army.  

But I never said that Robert fought dirty. He didn't. 

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

Also, I disagree about the Barristan quote.  When two fighters engage in a single combat duel and one starts the fight on foot, Barristan thinks the other should not start out on a horse.  But when two fighters go into a battle on horseback and one falls off, the other knight has just won an advantage through strength of arms.  In those circumstances, dismounting would not be chivalry.  It would be foolish.

Ah, nonsense. Battle or not, for Robert and Rhaegar the fight was personal and constituted a duel. Chivalry would still apply.

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

Besides, a battle is different from a duel.  No-one has suggested that it was unchivalrous for Aegon the Conqueror to ride into battle on a dragon when the opposing Kings were on horses.       

Because he had no personal beef with them that would require solving in a man-to-man manner.

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

It is unlikely that Ned believed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.  Otherwise, he would have referred to Elia as "Rhaegar's first wife" or "one of Rhaegar's wives."  Instead, he remembers that "Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty."  

Nonsense again. "First wife" or "one of wives" are still covered by "wife" as a more general term.

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

And he would not have thought of Jon, in his private thoughts, as a bastard:  "Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.  If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts."  

Except that the passage doesn't say that Ned believes Jon to be a bastard. The interpretation is possible, yes. But it's not the only option. Before it, comes the promise Ned gives to Barra's mother and her reaction to it, which resembles Lyanna's last moments, and after it Ned asks about Robert's bastards. The thought of Jon as Lyanna's son whom Ned promised to take care of is clearly prompted by the preceding part, and the similarity of the situation is enough to promtp the thought, without Jon being a bastard. Plus, that little insubstantial detail that Ned made Jon live the life of a bastard.

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

And consensual non-marital sex is not necessarily considered dishonorable for a highborn lady.  Melissa Blackwood gave Aegon IV a bastard son and her family was so honored by that, they built a statue of her in their godswood (much like Ned put a statue of Lyanna in his family crypts).  

Are you seriously suggesting that Ned Stark would believe his sister honoured by becoming Rhaegar's concubine? You must have read a different book.

BTW, nice that you attempt at different interpretations of the various supporting parts but the main issue remains - the discrepancy between the fight on horseback and the vision of Rhaegar sinking to his knees.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

And highly unlikely for GRRM to impart those thoughts inside Ned's mind.  You kiddn' me? It's the first book and GRRM is gonna shell out legitimate Jon already?

He already impart those clues of Jon being royal blood in various ways:

With Arya: bastards aren't allow to damage young princes, bruises they have should only come from trueborn swords.

With Robb: Married the woman he slept with to save her honor soon after, because it was the only honorable thing to do.. 

With his NW brothers: saying that Mance's blood is no more royal than his own.

With Ygritte/Val: stealing = marriage; if he's not gelded/killed, she is his wife; acknowledged by Dany, how Rhaegar stole his "northern girl"

With the Wall/oldgods/Weirwood: swears oath, pledged himself; just as his Father pledged himself to Lady Stark.

 

Jon has royal blood from the Stark side of his family (whether it comes from Ned or Lyanna).  We see all the dead Stark kings in the crypt before we ever hear Lyanna's name.  

And there are loads of references to Jon's bastardy -- Ned thinking about Jon, bastards, and lust all at the same time; Theon telling the Captain's daughter that it is not every man who has the honor of raising a king's bastard; his magic sword being a bastard sword; his direwolf being white (inverting the Stark colors, the way Daemon Blackfyre inverted the Targaryen colors); the only noblewomen who have statues in their fathers' houses are Melissa Blackwood (Aegon IV's mistress) and Lyanna; and on and on.  

Also, stealing does not equate to marriage in wildling culture.  Tormund says that Jon stole Ygritte yet acknowledges that any Jon/Ygritte child would be a bastard.  Stealing may be a precondition to marriage, but it is not a marriage.  

Finally, as Lord Stark, Ned had the right to pledge himself to Lady Stark, just as Lord Hoster Tully had the right to pledge Catelyn to Ned.  But neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna had the right to pledge themselves to anyone.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ghost is not an inversion of Stark colours, he is the colours of old gods, white and red.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

Jon has royal blood from the Stark side of his family (whether it comes from Ned or Lyanna).  We see all the dead Stark kings in the crypt before we ever hear Lyanna's name.  

Those same dead Stark kings that declared to Jon that he's not a Stark? 

Mance's blood is not royal, we don't know who's his real parents are... the point is, he is/was a KING to his people.  Thus the line about when Jon said, "Mance's blood is no more royal than my own" rings true if Jon is a trueborn and heir to the throne of the Targaryens, who the Starks bend the knee to.

We initially meet Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are royalty/highborn, but Jon is a bastard... on the surface.

Thus the line when Jon told Arya that bastards shouldn't damage young princes, that only trueborn swords should be able to bruise them, makes sense... on the surface.

The irony is when we found out that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are born of incest, not Robert and Cersei's, thus illegitimate children.  That's where the red flag is raised.  And all the clues pointing to Jon being a trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna contributes to it.  That's when the sentence Jon said to Arya makes the truest sense as the author intended for the careful readers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, one question: if the dutiful, noble and honourable Rhaegar knocked his rival off the horse, would he dismount? I believe it would in character for him to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Rhaegar dismounted and that he married Lyanna  . I believe Rhaegar is supposed to be like the ASOIAF version of Hector . Hector is the true hero of the Illiad . Rhaegar is the true hero of the war . Rhaegar is the idealized prince despite his faults but Prince Charming didn't win in the end ; it all comes crashing down on the Trident with all their hopes and dreams for a better regime shattered . The rebellion is like the Trojan War for me where I am far more sympathetic and taken to the Trojans (Targaryens)  and their story and fates than I am the Achaeans or rebels in our case  ( god , I despise all of those Achaeans in the Trojan war  ) .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So what would constitute the honourability?

Plus, sorry but I don't understand the bolded.

Upright and honourable, nothing underhand. A good clean fight.

On the other hand the placing of the fatal wound - swinging a warhammer into Rhaegar's chest, suggests that Rhaegar may have been knocked to the ground - knocked or pulled off his horse - and was murdered while he was lying on the ground. As I said before they were in a melee, not a joust, and in a tournament melee the idea was to knock your opponent off his horse in close combat rather than with a lance and its this we're told Robert excelled at.

As to your second question, its a heretic joke; "Trouserless Bob Baratheon" - so called because he can't keep his trousers on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Promise me, Ned" factors pretty large in this theory. I wonder what Lyanna specifically asked him to promise her. If R+L=J is right, than it was probably: "Promise me you'll keep him (the baby) safe, that you won't let them kill him like Aegon and Rhaenys."

I wonder...

I'm rereading the series, just started. Last night I was reading the part where Ned is locked down in the black cells. At one point, they say something about him thinking of "promises broken." I wondered about that.

I know Ned made other promises, so it doesn't mean anything for a certainty, but i wonder if there is more to it. Something about Ned pulling down the Tower of Joy sounds like shame to me. And he definitely looks back on the Tower with regret...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Ghost is not an inversion of Stark colours, he is the colours of old gods, white and red.

Ghost is an inversion of the Stark colors.  All the other wolves are gray or gray-black. A gray direwolf on a white background is the sigil of House Stark.  Inverted Stark colors for a Stark bastard have a white wolf with a gray backgroud.  Indeed, when Mormont gifts Longclaw (a "bastard" sword) to Jon, he even remarks that a white wolf is appropriate for Jon:  "The original pommel was a bear's head, silver, yet so worn its features were all but indistinguishable.  For you, I thought a white wolf more apt."  White wolf = Stark bastard.  That is why Jon's direwolf is white while all the other children got gray or gray-black wolves.

And the eye color is not important to this.  The others are all yellow or green, but that does not symbolize anything other than the fact that their eyes had to be some color. 

16 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Those same dead Stark kings that declared to Jon that he's not a Stark? 

Mance's blood is not royal, we don't know who's his real parents are... the point is, he is/was a KING to his people.  Thus the line about when Jon said, "Mance's blood is no more royal than my own" rings true if Jon is a trueborn and heir to the throne of the Targaryens, who the Starks bend the knee to.

We initially meet Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are royalty/highborn, but Jon is a bastard... on the surface.

Thus the line when Jon told Arya that bastards shouldn't damage young princes, that only trueborn swords should be able to bruise them, makes sense... on the surface.

The irony is when we found out that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are born of incest, not Robert and Cersei's, thus illegitimate children.  That's where the red flag is raised.  And all the clues pointing to Jon being a trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna contributes to it.  That's when the sentence Jon said to Arya makes the truest sense as the author intended for the careful readers.

Jon knows he is not a Stark, even though he has royal Stark blood.  Practically the first words out of his mouth in AGOT are:  "The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark," Jon pointed out.  "I am no Stark, Father."  (In other words, my father is a Stark, I have his royal blood, but I am not a Stark).

"Mance's blood is no more royal than my own" is interesting, of course.  "My blood" usually means "my son or daughter."  Occasionally, in the South, it is used to refer to a niece, nephew, or other family member.  And when he says this, Jon is thinking not about Mance but about Mance's son -- the next thing Jon says is that he is sending Gilly away, and we know that is not about getting rid of Gilly, it is about getting rid of Mance's "blood" -- his son.  

But this is also ironic because Jon's personal blood is royal -- royal Stark blood from the dead kings, plus the fact that he is Robb's heir.  In other words, Jon does not need to be Rhaegar's son to have royal blood.  He gets that from the Stark family.

The part about bastards hitting princes makes more sense as a reference to Tommen hitting Bran, because by the end of that book, Tommen is revealed to be a bastard while Bran becomes a prince.       

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Also, one question: if the dutiful, noble and honourable Rhaegar knocked his rival off the horse, would he dismount? I believe it would in character for him to.

Only if he was an utter idiot.  More likely, Robert's warhammer knocked him off his horse, he tried to stand up, and then fell down when Robert hit him again.

Consider this:  if dismounting to face a foe who is on foot is the honorable thing to do, why didn't Ned dismount when he fought the Kingsguard at the toj?  

"In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life."  "Lord Dustin on his great red stallion."  

But:

"Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips."  "Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee." "Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower."   

42 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

"Promise me, Ned" factors pretty large in this theory. I wonder what Lyanna specifically asked him to promise her. If R+L=J is right, than it was probably: "Promise me you'll keep him (the baby) safe, that you won't let them kill him like Aegon and Rhaenys."

I wonder...

I'm rereading the series, just started. Last night I was reading the part where Ned is locked down in the black cells. At one point, they say something about him thinking of "promises broken." I wondered about that.

I know Ned made other promises, so it doesn't mean anything for a certainty, but i wonder if there is more to it. Something about Ned pulling down the Tower of Joy sounds like shame to me. And he definitely looks back on the Tower with regret...

 

"Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge."

Raises a question -- why were all the stones bloody?  The fight took place outside the tower.  What was going on inside to get blood on all those stones?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

And the eye color is not important to this.  The others are all yellow or green, but that does not symbolize anything other than the fact that their eyes had to be some color. 

The significance of the eye colour is explained in text when Jon sees that the white wolf with the red eyes is the same colour as a weirwood and realises "this one belongs to the old gods"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

Ghost is an inversion of the Stark colors.  All the other wolves are gray or gray-black. A gray direwolf on a white background is the sigil of House Stark.  Inverted Stark colors for a Stark bastard have a white wolf with a gray backgroud.  Indeed, when Mormont gifts Longclaw (a "bastard" sword) to Jon, he even remarks that a white wolf is appropriate for Jon:  "The original pommel was a bear's head, silver, yet so worn its features were all but indistinguishable.  For you, I thought a white wolf more apt."  White wolf = Stark bastard.  That is why Jon's direwolf is white while all the other children got gray or gray-black wolves.

And the eye color is not important to this.  The others are all yellow or green, but that does not symbolize anything other than the fact that their eyes had to be some color. 

So you think that weirwood being white and red, and bloodraven being white and red albino, has no connection? Sorry if I don't find this convincing.

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

Only if he was an utter idiot.  More likely, Robert's warhammer knocked him off his horse, he tried to stand up, and then fell down when Robert hit him again.

So Arthur Dayne was also an idiot to let the Smiling Knight get a new sword?

It was a time when people did such things. I don't care for your personal strategic evaluation, I am asking if such an act would be in character for Rhaegar as a person brought up in the culture of chivalry.

Quote

Consider this:  if dismounting to face a foe who is on foot is the honorable thing to do, why didn't Ned dismount when he fought the Kingsguard at the toj?  

1) Ned was NOT fighting a single combat, so he was not required to

2) since when is the ToJ dream suddenly a literal depiction of what happened and how? 

 

Quote

"Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge."

Raises a question -- why were all the stones bloody?  The fight took place outside the tower.  What was going on inside to get blood on all those stones?  

Er... you do not assume that "bloody stones" means that every single stone was drenched in blood, I hope. It doesn't really matter if the fighting took place outside or inside, it was the place as such. The ToJ fight took many lives, perhaps unnecessarily, so its stones were bloody, regardless whether there was literal blood on them or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

"Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge."

Raises a question -- why were all the stones bloody?  The fight took place outside the tower.  What was going on inside to get blood on all those stones?  

Yeah. I agree with @Ygrain on this one. I doubt all the stones were literally bloody. Most likely the author was speaking figuratively. Or saying "bloody" as a profanity. Like "Shut the bloody door!:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

"Mance's blood is no more royal than my own" is interesting, of course.  "My blood" usually means "my son or daughter."  Occasionally, in the South, it is used to refer to a niece, nephew, or other family member.  And when he says this, Jon is thinking not about Mance but about Mance's son -- the next thing Jon says is that he is sending Gilly away, and we know that is not about getting rid of Gilly, it is about getting rid of Mance's "blood" -- his son.  

????

Because Jon knows Mel is about to burn him for his king's blood, that's what he and his brothers were talking about in that scene (turned out to be a fake out with Rattleshirt later in ADWD).

(In Jon's eyes)

Mance's son was going to be next.

AND

Maester Aemon, who happened to have royal blood.

Thus the sentence is of Jon connecting the two "royal" bloodline of Aemon Steelsong (Father: Mance--King to the people beyond the wall) and Maester Aemon (Father: Maekar--Targaryen King), to escape from the wall in fear that they are going to be used for burned sacrifice offerings.

This will ring true in the books as Shireen will be the only one in Mel's eye that has King's blood (Father: Stannis--Baratheon King), that she will indeed going to be burned.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The significance of the eye colour is explained in text when Jon sees that the white wolf with the red eyes is the same colour as a weirwood and realises "this one belongs to the old gods"

It is possible that that is one reason the eye color is red.  But raises the question why Summer has gray (Stark) wool and yellow eyes.  Surely this is not intended to signify that Summer has no connection to the Old Gods?

It also does not undermine the message GRRM is trying to convey by giving Jon a white direwolf and a bastard sword with a white direwolf on it.  The connection to Daemon Blackfyre's sigil is just too clear:  the black dragon was the bastard and the red dragon was trueborn; just as the gray wolves are for the trueborn Stark children while the white wolf is for the bastard.  That is why Mormont removes the bear (sigil of house Mormont) from Longclaw and replaces it with the white direwolf (sigil for a Stark bastard).  

Otherwise, it would just be a coincidence that one of the colors for the Old Gods happens to be the same as the Stark bastard coloring.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Twinslayer, the part about sending Gilly was after Jon and his fellow brother, Sam, brought up about Mel wanting to do sorcery with the sacrificial offering of Mance, because he has King's blood.

“Pyp says that Lady Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery.”
“Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He’s a brigand, nothing more. There’s no power in brigand’s blood.”
The raven looked up from the floor. “Blood,” it screamed.
Jon paid no mind. “I am sending Gilly away.”

And Yes, Shireen will be the sacrifice that will ended up contributing to Jon's resurrection.  

Whoa!

EDIT: your post disappeared or you edited it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

Twinslayer, the part about sending Gilly was after Jon and his fellow brother, Sam, brought up about Mel wanting to do sorcery with the sacrificial offering of Mance, because he has King's blood.

“Pyp says that Lady Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery.”
“Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He’s a brigand, nothing more. There’s no power in brigand’s blood.”
The raven looked up from the floor. “Blood,” it screamed.
Jon paid no mind. “I am sending Gilly away.”

And Yes, Shireen will be the sacrifice that will ended up contributing to Jon's resurrection.  

Jon and Aemon consider the danger of future blood sacrifices done by Melisandre but they are obviously overestimating the dangers there.

Before Melisandre would considering burning Stannis Baratheon's daughter there are quite a few other sacrifices she would approach first. Gilly's son, Val, 'Arya Stark', Gerrick Kingsblood and his daughters, Axell and Selyse Florents (who are descended from the royal line of House Gardener). Lord Alester's death helped Mel to create that great wind that carried the fleet to Eastwatch.

But then, nothing suggests that there will be a blood sacrifice to bring back Jon Snow. Or any blood sacrifice at all. Melisandre is not exactly in the position to burn people with impunity right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, aikojai said:

I believe Rhaegar dismounted and that he married Lyanna  . I believe Rhaegar is supposed to be like the ASOIAF version of Hector . Hector is the true hero of the Illiad . Rhaegar is the true hero of the war . Rhaegar is the idealized prince despite his faults but Prince Charming didn't win in the end ; it all comes crashing down on the Trident with all their hopes and dreams for a better regime shattered . The rebellion is like the Trojan War for me where I am far more sympathetic and taken to the Trojans (Targaryens)  and their story and fates than I am the Achaeans or rebels in our case  ( god , I despise all of those Achaeans in the Trojan war  ) .

Sorry, missed your post earlier. 

I think that Rhaegar is a blend of Paris and Hector here - he does the deed but his character is definitely more like Hector's. But you're right that the Achaeans are generally not a very likeable lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×