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Ygrain

R+L=J v.162

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Even though I think GRRM has settled on L + R= J (the new trope female before the male) on quiet times like now I speculate Eddard could be Jon's father . 1 . Wylla #1 and Eddard  . Wylla # 1 could be a camp follower , had Jon , got paid the end  . Wylla # 2 the fisherman 'daughter comforted each other in grief . Ashara Dayne it is obvious she knew Eddard Stark  from Harrenhal Tourney perhaps something was kindled there .The last is Barbrey Dustin . After Brandon told her that he was betroth to Catelyn , Eddard became next in line .The Wyllas could be one person or a secret name for one ... Ashara Dayne . Ashara Dayne was Elia's ladies in waiting , let's say after Lyanna's abduction by Rhaegar , Elia may have been either sympathetic or threaten by Lyanna plight ,so the first thing she would do is use her lady in waiting to make contact with the rebels in general and Ned in particular Ashara would travel using an alias Wylla after the warrior maiden from Dorne carrying messages you don't want in either Varys or Pycelle or Aerys ' hands . There are those who would say Eddard would not do that . Eddard is a man , and any woman can seduce almost any man especially if she knows he is attracted to her .example Arys Oakheart . But why did she commit suicide ? Post partum depression or perhaps Cercei had the truth of it , that  Eddard stole his son and that is why she killed herself .Barry said," She had a girl who was stillborn ." But who told him this ? Either some unknown Dayne or Eddard Stark .Now my fav tinfoil Barbrey Dustin . Barbrey hatred for Eddard Stark isn't driven because he didn't return Willam Dustin's bones to Barrowtown ,if she wanted them that bad she has the means she could either get them herself or petition Eddard for their return .Her true reason is she can never be a Stark . But then why isn't she mad a Catelyn ? Why with Eddard Stark dead she didn't mobilize all of Barrowtown's troops ? And why didn't she ever marry ? And why of all of those who lost lords he went to Ashara and Barbrey ' s palaces ?He took Jon from Barbrey , and she has been wearing black ever since .

If L+R=J isn't true then why is the King's Guard at the Tower ? Their job is to protect the king . but then Houston we have a problem . It doesn't matter how you slice it or how noble the intentions are once Rhaegar planned to dispose Aerys he became a usurper ,failure to arrest Rhaegar and other co conspirators was a violation of their oath. They promised to protect the king even from a well meaning son .

Tinfoil- Lyanna's promise  I think one of the promises was about Robert Baratheon , she wanted Eddard to watch over Bobby B. Most of the time when he remembers her saying promise me it is about Bob . When Ned is dreaming he is in the crypts of  Winterfell and he sees his sister's statue weeping blood saying promise me ". and when he wakes up he finds out that Robert has been mortally wounded .How you feel me? You are Eddard your wolf's blood has come on you Robert did not punish the murderers of Elia and her babes you leave for the south , you find your only sister dying she tell you take care of Jon . Done . Bury me in Winterfell  . Done . Look after Robert he is truly alone in the world . Now you are still angry with Robert  and you just lost some good friends taking this place you have never lied to her before , but then you soften .Done .When you return to King's Landing with Lyanna's bones you and Robert reconcile ,but then you see Iaime Lannister ,Varys and Pycelle  running free instead of on they way to the Wall , Robert has pardoned them .Well that was  the last straw you leave for Winterfell , only to leave it for the Greyjoy Rebellion. Now when you go to King's Landing 15 years later you are surprised by all the` Lannisters running wild  and that his brothers did not love him and that the queen was conspiring to have him killed . You have broken your promise to Lya .Promise me  .. Broken Promises .

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Your imagination is certainly creative but you would do well to stick more to what the text says. Ned states that he always keeps his promises, that he has paid a price to keep the promises to Lyanna. And he thinks this well after finding out what the situtation in KL was like. So, no, he never promised to look after Robert.

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I sometimes enjoy reading all these convoluted theories, because it amuses me to imagine Dave, Dan and George sitting down all those years ago to consider George's question "who is Jon's mother?" with D+D animatedly running through their lengthy hypothesis, saying repeatedly "and then, for some reason..." and going on to describe Lyanna using blood magic to make Jon look Stark instead of Dayne, or for Daenerys to teleport back to Rhaella's womb while Jon arrives on the Starfall Express in time for Ned to make his promise; or perhaps Dave can pretend to be Lyanna getting stabbed by some mystery assassin while the real mother (played by Dan) pops out Baby Jon then promptly leaves Lyanna to die in the Tower.

And George cries "A-ha! You've got it! I was sure my lack of any clues or foreshadowing would baffle the readers, but you nailed it."

The other alternative of course is that D+D describe R+L=J and George thinks "Hmm, I never thought of that.  That's much better than my confusing Barbrey Dustin love/hate soap opera, so I'm gonna go with it.  Luckily I've put so many clues in the books already.  Nobody will ever suspect."

Not really buying either scenario.

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Me neither, but of course what the mummers actually said was that they had correctly identified Jon's mother, not both his parents.

GRRM has declared that he would not alter anything because people had figured out the answer, but he's not renowned for plain speaking and given his insistence that in his writing he is a gardener, not an architect I do wonder sometimes whether there is a fixed answer or whether he has two possible candidates for Jon's father, both justifiable in the text so far written but neither yet chiselled in stone as he watches how this particular rose bush grows.

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On 27/07/2016 at 8:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

The idea that this means that Rhaegar dismounted and continued 'the duel' on foot makes little sense in that context. Even more so considering that pretty much everything suggests that Robert knocked Rhaegar out of his saddle not vice versa. In fact, I doubt that the Robert-Rhaegar fight took very long. Robert charged, and attacked Rhaegar with everything he got. Considering Robert's awesome strength and his mad fury it is not very likely that Rhaegar's armor was able to withstand the war hammer for long. And unless Rhaegar had a Valyrian steel sword (Dark Sister?) it is very unlikely that his sword would have been more than nuisance to Robert. Robert could afford to be hit by such a weapon multiple times, especially while they were riding, but Rhaegar couldn't possibly survive more than a few blasts from that war hammer.

 

Keep in mind that the thing is so heavy that Ned actually says he could scarcely lift the it. If that's even remotely true Rhaegar should have been dead meat after a single blow to the head, helmet or not.

I am sorry to disturb, but wasn't Robert severely wounded by Rhaegar during the battle? I read the book a long time ago, but I always thought that the battle and the later "battle" that Robert had with that boar was quite similar. Robert was "mortally wounded" but slew the boar because he was totally mad with hate. It seems that Robert always refused to lose, and that he was quite obstinate, especially when wounded.

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2 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I am sorry to disturb, but wasn't Robert severely wounded by Rhaegar during the battle? I read the book a long time ago, but I always thought that the battle and the later "battle" that Robert had with that boar was quite similar. Robert was "mortally wounded" but slew the boardbecause he was totally mad with hate. It seems that Robert always refused to lose, and that he was quite obstinate, especially when wounded.

Robert was wounded but not severely. He was just not in a good enough shape to immediately continue the march to King's Landing. But he followed Ned quickly enough.

We also don't know for a certainty that Robert was wounded by Rhaegar, personally. It is quite likely and I think it is the case.

We can reasonably assume that the weight of Robert's warhammer made it difficult/impossible for him to effectively use a shield in battle. He would have wielded the hammer with both hands. If Rhaegar had Dark Sister he may have been able to cut through Robert's armor at multiple points. Even if he had only a normal sword that would not be impossible if Robert's armor was already battered from previous fighting (either in that battle or during earlier battles) especially if he was able to use his own shield defend himself against the war hammer for a brief time.

But once Robert had crushed Rhaegar's shield he would have been effectively helpless. There wouldn't have been any defense against that warhammer. Rhaegar never had a real chance to win any fight against Robert. Not while the man still had that hammer.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We also don't know for a certainty that Robert was wounded by Rhaegar, personally. It is quite likely and I think it is the case.

 

We do, Ned tells him that he took a wound from Rhaegar and could not go to KL with him. I just found the part in the book on my Kindle but can't quote the dialogue here.

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On 24/07/2016 at 2:53 AM, Ygrain said:

So, I think it is well possible that Rhaegar knocked Robert off the saddle first, and then dismounted himself, which was a tactical mistake that cost him his life. It was also something that Robert's ego would want to keep from Ned, which is why we never hear in Ned's PoV.

Curiously, Rhaegar wouldn't even be the first Targaryen to lose his life because of chivalry: Daemon Blackfyre made the same mistake by standing over the injured Gwayne Corbray to make sure no more harm came to him, by which he gave Bloodraven the time to access a vantage point and shower him with arrows. 

 

I always thought that he wanted to tell Robert about Lyanna. This is maybe why he died with her name on his lips. 

If Rhaegar was a lesser man he would not even approach Robert and would let other men try to kill him after he wounded him.

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8 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

We do, Ned tells him that he took a wound from Rhaegar and could not go to KL with him. I just found the part in the book on my Kindle but can't quote the dialogue here.

Yeah, I thought something like that was mentioned. But we don't know if that was his only wound. However, it wasn't very severe and we don't even know where exactly he was injured.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, I thought something like that was mentioned. But we don't know if that was his only wound. However, it wasn't very severe and we don't even know where exactly he was injured.

We do not know, yes, you're right. But the way Ned says it, it seems Robert was very wounded. Remember he slew the boar while mortally wounded! That man was a shorter Gregor Clegane, lol.

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2 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

We do not know, yes, you're right. But the way Ned says it, it seems Robert was very wounded. Remember he slew the boar while mortally wounded! That man was a shorter Gregor Clegane, lol.

Robert could not have been that wounded. He was well enough to be standing over Selmy after the battle and refuse Roose Bolton's suggestion that he be put to death. Not to mention Robert sent the man his own Maester,

Then we have Tywin's gift of the dead Taragaryen children. Robert's relief was palpable, so it seems like no raven or rider had told him the children were dead. In my opinion Ned's rage at Robert's arrival in the throne room to the "gift" of dead children suggests that Robert came down soon after Ned. Hours behind rather than days. Plus Ned stayed long enough to argue with Robert about it, when his first priority should have been finding his sister. 

So yeah I think it's unlikely Robert was "very wounded" on the trident. It's a sliding scale but I'd bet he was riding again before the day was over. 

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17 hours ago, RumHam said:

Robert could not have been that wounded. He was well enough to be standing over Selmy after the battle and refuse Roose Bolton's suggestion that he be put to death. Not to mention Robert sent the man his own Maester,

Then we have Tywin's gift of the dead Taragaryen children. Robert's relief was palpable, so it seems like no raven or rider had told him the children were dead. In my opinion Ned's rage at Robert's arrival in the throne room to the "gift" of dead children suggests that Robert came down soon after Ned. Hours behind rather than days. Plus Ned stayed long enough to argue with Robert about it, when his first priority should have been finding his sister. 

So yeah I think it's unlikely Robert was "very wounded" on the trident. It's a sliding scale but I'd bet he was riding again before the day was over. 

Maybe you're right, yeah... Seems strange though that Ned mentioned this, that he was wounded by Rhaegar, he could have only mentioned "I arrived there first". You know, being very strong doesn't mean you're the greatest swordman or fighter. Robert was strong and had a very strong will too, but it was strength not skill that killed Rhaegar.

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10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It was only a flesh wound...

A flesh would would never stop Robert from going to KL with Ned.

But ok, he was wounded only for the purpose of Ned, alone, having the sight of a Lannister sitting on the throne.

Wait, when this became totally OOT?

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6 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

A flesh would would never stop Robert from going to KL with Ned.

But ok, he was wounded only for the purpose of Ned, alone, having the sight of a Lannister sitting on the throne.

Or that Robert may have one or two ladies in waiting back at the camp that helped him patch up his wounds.  Severe "flesh" wounds need special attention.

 

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17 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It was only a flesh wound...

 

7 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

A flesh would would never stop Robert from going to KL with Ned.

But ok, he was wounded only for the purpose of Ned, alone, having the sight of a Lannister sitting on the throne.

Wait, when this became totally OOT?

Heh...I think Black Crow was jokingly referencing the Black Knight from Monte Python and the Holy Grail.  But I could be wrong...:D

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6 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

 

Heh...I think Black Crow was jokingly referencing the Black Knight from Monte Python and the Holy Grail.  But I could be wrong...:D

Oh, good then. I now want to rewatch those series of Monty Python, they were so funny, I really need to laugh a bit especially after discussing with some stubborn people who can't accept that others have their own opinion about fiction.

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On August 1, 2016 at 11:17 PM, RumHam said:

Robert could not have been that wounded. He was well enough to be standing over Selmy after the battle and refuse Roose Bolton's suggestion that he be put to death. Not to mention Robert sent the man his own Maester,

Then we have Tywin's gift of the dead Taragaryen children. Robert's relief was palpable, so it seems like no raven or rider had told him the children were dead. In my opinion Ned's rage at Robert's arrival in the throne room to the "gift" of dead children suggests that Robert came down soon after Ned. Hours behind rather than days. Plus Ned stayed long enough to argue with Robert about it, when his first priority should have been finding his sister. 

So yeah I think it's unlikely Robert was "very wounded" on the trident. It's a sliding scale but I'd bet he was riding again before the day was over. 

I think you are underestimating how long it took Robert to get to King's Landing.  First, I don't think Robert was standing over Selmy after the battle.  Ned says:  "On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine.  When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, 'I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds."  That suggests that Robert's wound had already been tended by the master when Barristan was brought in but it does not say that Robert was able to stand.  It also confirms that this happened before Ned left with the vanguard to pursue Rhaegar's forces (so Ned did not set off immediately).  

Second, Ned pursued the Targaryen forces back to King's Landing.  He would have done that with the cavalry.   He "expected to find the gates closed to us" -- meaning he expected a siege.  Robert would not have ridden down to face that siege at speed.  He would have come with the infantry, which would take a lot longer than Ned's cavalry.  That means days or even weeks, not hours. Of course, Robert may have ridden, but he would have ridden at the infantry's walking pace while Ned was riding hard in pursuit of an enemy army.  

I think you are right that no raven or rider had told Robert about the dead children, but not because he moved too quickly.  It was because Tywin kept it secret from everyone until Robert arrived.  Ned, Tywin and Kevan all describe the scene and it is pretty clear that Ned and Kevan only learned of the death of the children when Tywin presented the bodies (meaning they did not find out until Robert did).  Also,  Ned describes his "cold rage" that was still burning when he rode out of King's Landing that same day, indicating that his rage was still fresh.  So even though the children died before Ned entered the city, Ned did not know about it until after Robert had been crowned.    

Also, Ned left the city the same day he learned the children were dead.  It is unlikely that Ned arrived in King's Landing, witnessed the Sack and dethroned Jaime, took down the Lannister flags, met up with Robert, participated in Robert's coronation, and left for Storm's End all in the space of one day.  That all would have taken place over a period of several days at least.  

Finally, Ned's first priority was not to find his sister.  It was to finish the war.  Ned even says that when he left King's Landing, his purpose was "to fight the last battles of the war alone in the South."  At that point, Dorne was still loyal to the Targaryens and Mace Tyrell was still in the field.  In the epilogue to ADWD, Kevin says that Mace supported Aerys "to the bitter end and well beyond."  That indicates that Mace was still fighting for Aerys "well beyond" the Sack of King's Landing.  Ned had to take care of Mace and lift the siege of Storm's End, and fight whatever other battles he is referring to, before he could turn his attention to finding Lyanna.    

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@The Twinslayer

We don't have good material to speculate on how long it took Robert to reach KL. I'm not agreeing with RumHam that he came mere hours later, it should have been at least a day or so. But not much more.

The idea that Tywin could keep the murder of the royal children a secret from Eddard Stark makes no sense. Ned took possession of the castle as well, remember, and there is little chance that Tywin would have been able to prevent Ned from investigating the whereabouts of Princess Elia and Rhaegar's children. For all he knew his own sister Lyanna could have been in Maegor's Holdfast, too.

Tywin could have perhaps been able to keep the exact circumstances of the deaths a secret from Ned - until he presented the bodies to Robert in the throne room - but not much else.

Not to mention that there was this tension over both the Sack and the murder of Aerys II by the hands of Jaime Lannister. Eddard Stark had the rebel troops in the city. He could very well have seized Ser Jaime in King Robert's name and executed him for his crime. I don't think Ned would have been wise enough to postpone such a confrontation with the Lannisters had he had reason to believe that Robert would not come soon.

Then there is the fact that Tywin apparently decided to send Alliser Thorne and Jaremy Rykker to the Wall. Robert most likely would have pardoned those men, suggesting that this decision was made by Tywin before Robert arrived in the city.

Robert's wound most likely looked worse than it was. Perhaps he was injured at one of his legs making it either difficult or risky for him to ride. But once it became clear that the wound wasn't that bad he just pressed on as a man like Robert always would.

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