The Walking Dead Season 7 (Comic Spoilers) What? Was the joke that bad?

[The Anti-Targ]

The thing I don't get about character motivations in TWD with the Saviours is why they cooperate. If in the normal world there is truth to the saying "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees" then when the world has gone to shit and you live in a zombie apocalypse then surely the saying applies even more. Why go to such lengths to survival merely to face the prospect of living and dying in enslavement with the threat of death at the whim of a tyrant hanging over you?

You don't even need to go to war, you just don't comply. You wanna take half? well how about half of nothing then? Until we come to a mutually beneficial arrangement of autonomous cooperation we're adopting a subsistence living model. The reason you Saviour's exist as a community is so that you don't have find your own food and luxuries. If you kill us all then you become the worker bees, and we're free. You wanna kill our kids? Go right ahead, better they die before they learn how to be slaves in this shit hole of a world. You want to beat me and torture me? Sure, I'll be no bloody use to you because I won't be able to work for you.

Once they know fear and violence won't work they have no power.

The problem with the story I suspect is that it's merely headed towards a bunch of communities finally growing spines and they attack the Savior base and massacre everyone. No scope for facing up to the bully and staring him down, because that would require people being willing to die. But on this show people are only willing to kill.

[Castel]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

The thing I don't get about character motivations in TWD with the Saviours is why they cooperate. If in the normal world there is truth to the saying "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees" then when the world has gone to shit and you live in a zombie apocalypse then surely the saying applies even more. Why go to such lengths to survival merely to face the prospect of living and dying in enslavement with the threat of death at the whim of a tyrant hanging over you?

You don't even need to go to war, you just don't comply. You wanna take half? well how about half of nothing then? Until we come to a mutually beneficial arrangement of autonomous cooperation we're adopting a subsistence living model. The reason you Saviour's exist as a community is so that you don't have find your own food and luxuries. If you kill us all then you become the worker bees, and we're free. You wanna kill our kids? Go right ahead, better they die before they learn how to be slaves in this shit hole of a world. You want to beat me and torture me? Sure, I'll be no bloody use to you because I won't be able to work for you.

Once they know fear and violence won't work they have no power.

The problem with the story I suspect is that it's merely headed towards a bunch of communities finally growing spines and they attack the Savior base and massacre everyone. No scope for facing up to the bully and staring him down, because that would require people being willing to die. But on this show people are only willing to kill.

I mean..you're asking why people get extorted or threatened. Is the answer not obvious? 

We had some shitty times in the past where being a poor person meant being a subsistence farmer or some other unappealing thing and getting taxed and fucked over and massive infant mortality and maternal deaths and people still didn't just let themselves get killed en masse. Sure, there were mass suicides like during the Jewish revolts but people also played ball. 

The idea that the Saviors are don't have any power if you don't do anything is...odd. They will kill you, they will kill your kids and they will keep fucking killing until someone in your group (or the next group) cares more about not dying a painful death for principle than they do having a shitty life. If killing you doesn't work they'll just find some more extreme form of torture till you break. This was already highlighted in Negan's first appearance.He not only continually escalates until he finds something that breaks Rick, he specifically tells Rick that he won't kill him and will torture him for years, just in case Rick got the idea to be a nihilist and just go out with his team then and there. 

The saviors may be broadly rational but that doesn't mean that punitive punishment and sheer vindictiveness has to be rational in the short-term. When Negan crucifies everyone in Hilltop or makes them eat each other he's certainly losing out in the short term. But the next community will think twice because their gamble won't work. Negan is willing to kill more of them than are willing to die. And rightly so, frankly. They'll crack before he does and if he does crack he's put himself in a more precarious position (moreso than being a piece of shit extortionist anyway). He's insane enough that the onus is on you here.

Turning the other cheek doesn't work. It didn't even work the first time.

You can bet against the survival instinct if you want, but I think it's strange to be confused that people don't want to fucking die.

[The Anti-Targ]

I'm not saying people want to die. I'm saying people should stand up for the kind of society they want in this shitty new reality they are in and be willing to die to achieve it. The TWD world is shit enough as it is that there is very little to actually live for, so you are not losing all that much.

History is as full of example of people sacrificing for freedom for their people as it is people putting up with their lot under tyranny and slavery.

One's entire world stretches only as far as one can travel on half a tank of gas, and it has to be extremely important and rare to travel that far. The number of communities Negan hasn't subjugated within that radius is likely to be minimal. Human labour is a very finite resource in this world, he actually afford to kill of a single community and keep all of his comrades fat and happy. He's already lost one community, fortunately the women didn't just have to curl up and die, they managed to find a way to hide. It will be interesting to see whether they choose death over enslavement if Negan finds them again. Though I suspect the prime Negan will probably feel compelled to slaughter them all as an example.

[Dr. Pepper]

4 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm not saying people want to die. I'm saying people should stand up for the kind of society they want in this shitty new reality they are in and be willing to die to achieve it. The TWD world is shit enough as it is that there is very little to actually live for, so you are not losing all that much.

History is as full of example of people sacrificing for freedom for their people as it is people putting up with their lot under tyranny and slavery.

One's entire world stretches only as far as one can travel on half a tank of gas, and it has to be extremely important and rare to travel that far. The number of communities Negan hasn't subjugated within that radius is likely to be minimal. Human labour is a very finite resource in this world, he actually afford to kill of a single community and keep all of his comrades fat and happy. He's already lost one community, fortunately the women didn't just have to curl up and die, they managed to find a way to hide. It will be interesting to see whether they choose death over enslavement if Negan finds them again. Though I suspect the prime Negan will probably feel compelled to slaughter them all as an example.

Except your life, which is, um, everything.  Like, it just really isn't a mystery at all why people might want to live.

The thing about people like Negan is that there are always people like Negan.  Just look at our group.  They've gone from one shit show to another.  Leaving doesn't mean being from of people like Negan.  The women's community may be hidden for now, but it's only a matter of time.  When you are not nomadic, you can be found quite easily.  Tara stumbled over them accidentally, anyone else can do the same.  

[Castel]

10 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm not saying people want to die. I'm saying people should stand up for the kind of society they want in this shitty new reality they are in and be willing to die to achieve it.

Easy to say.And they already did try this with Negan and...well, shit went down and it wasn't in their favor. So it's not that they didn't fight...they just didn't self-immolate.

 

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The TWD world is shit enough as it is that there is very little to actually live for, so you are not losing all that much.

Well, to you. The people who didn't give a fuck about life probably already killed themselves at the CDC. 

And, as I said, it's not like you or your loved ones need to die or die quick. 

And we've already seen some pretty shitty situations outside. Some people may feel, rightly imo, that home is still better, even with Negan shenanigans. Of course, if they have no choice (like Gregory) they may fight but there's some meeting point where the pain doesn't outweigh the good of having a community.

 

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History is as full of example of people sacrificing for freedom for their people as it is people putting up with their lot under tyranny and slavery.

 

 

It's also full of them trying and failing and getting beaten down anyway. Turning the other cheek , as you describe in your first post seems like an especially bad idea in these sorts of circumstances. 

 

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One's entire world stretches only as far as one can travel on half a tank of gas, and it has to be extremely important and rare to travel that far. The number of communities Negan hasn't subjugated within that radius is likely to be minimal. Human labour is a very finite resource in this world, he actually afford to kill of a single community and keep all of his comrades fat and happy. He's already lost one community, fortunately the women didn't just have to curl up and die, they managed to find a way to hide. It will be interesting to see whether they choose death over enslavement if Negan finds them again. Though I suspect the prime Negan will probably feel compelled to slaughter them all as an example.

Negan is not a bean counting AI, he's a domineering sociopath, he won't shut himself down like that thing in War Games if it gets too unprofitable. If it gets to the point that he has to kill them all...he will. But he really doesn't have to, does he?

He can certainly inflict enough pain and punishment that some segment of the group breaks down. He has, in fact, already done so. 

Human lives may be valuable but there is just no way you convince him to allow this to stand by essentially going on a strike and appealing to his rational self-interest. This isn't Gandhi's world anymore. You pull that shit and you get crucified. He will likely take the hit, spend time hurting you and find some other way to compensate his men and himself because that's how he sees things (or, arguably he wouldn't be the shitty extortionist)

Most likely outcome someone cracks and defects from your suicide pact (almost certain) . If you don't you are a threat or a teachable moment and you go back to step 1 until you aren't. 

 

[Pecan]

You know, the group could just pack up and leave. They have some vehicles and some gas. Squirrel away some supplies for the trip and just get the heck out of there. The saviors' range can't be too far, probably no more than a hundred miles. Just go. Of course, that doesn't follow anything like the broad storyline from the comics.

[dooog]

7 hours ago, Pecan said:

You know, the group could just pack up and leave. They have some vehicles and some gas. Squirrel away some supplies for the trip and just get the heck out of there. The saviors' range can't be too far, probably no more than a hundred miles. Just go. Of course, that doesn't follow anything like the broad storyline from the comics.

That would have made far too much sense. Especially while they still had enough guns and ammo to take a herd down, or to establish a new safe haven.

[Castel]

The Saviors could easily be watching them and we've seen what happened when they went on their own for  a season. It wasn't pretty. It really wasn't.

 

 

[red snow]

just binged the last 5 episodes. It works a bit better as I absolutely loathe the show's "one set of characters per week" set up. I'm pretty sure someone could edit these into 5 episodes where the locations/stories are mixed and it would be a hell of a lot more enjoyable.

Episode 2. Kind of silly but we get some world-building and Ezekiel is amazingly well cast. Oddly, it only occurred to me in watching this episode why the kingdom run around like Knights - it's the only way to have arms after Negan took any guns from themI guess they had to graft Michonne's comic story onto Carol given the divergence in comic Michonne and TV Michonne's story. But I'm going to have to wait 5 hours before the story moves any further. Will I even remember what happened by then.

Episode 3. Was fun because of the use of "easy street". It was also interesting watching the levels of torture occurring so that while Dwight is torturing Daryll, it's all part of Dwight's own personal torture. To be honest I'm not sure that Negan could survive long with this method. Most dictators of this ilk are eventually killed if there isn't anyone truly benefitting from their rule and it just seems like everyone is Negan's punch bag. I very much doubt that if anyone had the balls to attack Negan there'd be anyone seeking retribution. They need to show us some followers of his who seem to only benefit from Negan's presence. Otherwise it seems obvious that Negan will be destroyed from within.

Episode 4. Another reminder that Negan is a dick and appears to be in total control. Painful to see Rick so subservient and I still think hiding guns or at least destroying most of them so Negan doesn't get them would have been better than simply handing them all over. The episode also highlighted a flaw in the show's focus on Rick's gang. It acts as though their encounter with Negan in which two of the regular cast died was the worst thing to ever happen to Alexandria. But for the Alexandrians it's simply not the case - dozens of them died last season in the attack from the "wolves" and the attempt to divert the megaherd. Episode 1 was a walk in the park for them.

Episode 5. Pretty dull with the exception of some lols from Jesus going ninja and setting the mayor up to lose his whisky. In 4 hours time we'll find out what happens next for the hilltoppers assuming we even care or remember by then.

Episode 6. I'll give them credit for some more world-building and continuing to show how Negan is always making his presence felt (amazing it took so long to encounter him with hindsight). The major problem with the episode is that it tried to make us give a shit about a character that has very little going for them. I didn't even realise those two were on a separate story thread until they reminded me. I just don't care. At least we won't be revisiting this story in 5 hours time as they are at least back with the alexandrians. Although I'm sure we'll see that community again once Rick decides to pay tribute to Flash Gordon and unite the small tribes together against Negan.

With a few changes to some aspects (for continuity reasons) I don't see why they couldn't have had episode 3 as episode 2 (Daryll can carry an episode). Then 3-6 could have been a mixture of episodes 2, 4, 5 and 6. Seeing the effect of all the communities being the victims of Saviour visits would have hit us more strongly when intermingled. I guess it's just easier to craft an episode when you stick to one storyline but it's not like such storytelling is impossible. I really think they should either stick to one group or mix the threads together more skillfully. As it is, the show is just about bearable as a binge watch. I'll wait until the next batch are done before watching more.

I'm baffled at how this show can maintain such a large audience on a weekly schedule with this storytelling approach.

[Isis]

Ha. I just watched the last three eps this evening too. I think the dynamic on the Hilltop is interesting with Gregory being a dick and Jesus being a bit of a handy guy to have around. But, as we know that Gregory is willing to sell out basically anybody and has no loyalty to his own people...so we shouldn't be surprised if he manages to fuck everyone over while Jesus is out of the picture. Although I guess we're going to see Maggie impressing everyone with her amazing leadership skills. 

[-Ghost-]

That Tara scene where she flips the little girl off was funny. Was their plan to kill her and not actually let her and Heath join them or were they serious until Tara took off running? With the way Tara was acting in the woods and how quick they fired at her when she ran, it seemed like it, but I've seen some people say they were serious.

[HokieStone]

2 hours ago, -Ghost- said:

That Tara scene where she flips the little girl off was funny. Was their plan to kill her and not actually let her and Heath join them or were they serious until Tara took off running? With the way Tara was acting in the woods and how quick they fired at her when she ran, it seemed like it, but I've seen some people say they were serious.

The impression I got was that they were willing to let her stay in their community, but when she chose to leave, it was essentially a death sentence.

[Alia of the knife]

So, Negan is under the impression that Maggie is dead.

 

When he finds out otherwise, why does it matter? Has he a thing for the widows of the men he bludgeoned to death? Does he need to cozen them while in shock to see things his way, because if he doesn't, they become war machines when left to think on things on their own?

I know the Negan/Maggie dynamic is not in the graphic novel, so I wonder how Ricks lie will figure into this and why it matters.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Maggie and Sasha are gonna wreck shit. I imagine they'll be the ones to come across weapons and ammo and have a place outside Alexandria so Neegan doesn't know of it. 

[Castel]

On 11/29/2016 at 4:01 PM, red snow said:

I'm baffled at how this show can maintain such a large audience on a weekly schedule with this storytelling approach.

TWD really is proof of the seemingly unlimited patience of TV viewers. Which is what made it so fucking absurd when their defense of their bs cliffhanger was "instant gratification generation!". Really? You fucks have been living off of slow-as-molasses apocalypse drama for fucking years!

[red snow]

On 29/11/2016 at 10:19 PM, Isis said:

Ha. I just watched the last three eps this evening too. I think the dynamic on the Hilltop is interesting with Gregory being a dick and Jesus being a bit of a handy guy to have around. But, as we know that Gregory is willing to sell out basically anybody and has no loyalty to his own people...so we shouldn't be surprised if he manages to fuck everyone over while Jesus is out of the picture. Although I guess we're going to see Maggie impressing everyone with her amazing leadership skills. 

Pretty much. They seem to have got Jesus right in the sense he is utterly ridiculous yet works within the show. I guess similar to Michonne who was initially the samurai zombie killing machine.

Given how amazing Xander Berkely can be (The booth at the end) I'm surprised he always seems to get "weasly middle-management guy" roles. He does them well but he's capable of so much more if he gets the material.

32 minutes ago, Castel said:

TWD really is proof of the seemingly unlimited patience of TV viewers. Which is what made it so fucking absurd when their defense of their bs cliffhanger was "instant gratification generation!". Really? You fucks have been living off of slow-as-molasses apocalypse drama for fucking years!

The good news is that ratings are showing said patience is not unlimited. Hopefully the creators will course-correct but they are still the most successful show by a large margin on a Sunday. At least now it doesn't appear the viewing figures are backing their approach to storytelling. Although I'm assuming it's the continued split narrative of only seeing characters once a month in a weekly show that's the main problem. It might just be viewers not liking Negan or the fact he seems to have the protagonists utterly subjugated?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Forgive me but I'm still working my way through the end of Season 6, but I've heard the problems with Walking Dead don't look like they will be changing much in the future either. I still enjoy the show on some level, its watchable, occasionally thrilling, but mostly filled with blank space filling sections of very poor characterisation and fortune cookie level philosophising. 

I said it previously but for me the show has always been far better when its tried to ignore anything that has happened in the comics. I owned A LOT of the comics, out of habit, but I have to admit that Kirkman is a pretty bad writer. Many of the issues the show has are right there on the pages of his books. Season 6 is pretty messy, and lacks pace and direction, is full of stupid moments and a bunch of bland forgettable characters are introduced.. well its exactly the same in the books. Its the one comic I've really struggled to turn the pages. 

My favourite season, I think not many agree, was the 4th? The one where they are searching for Sanctuary, after they leave the prison. Its the best because its the one season not directly taken from the pages of Kirkmans arsehole. The writers got a level of freedom to create situations and characters in a zombie wasteland scenario and hence there were some fantastic episodes which were utterly memorable and actually felt like I was watching a show dealing with what happens at the end of the world. 

All the other seasons are just nonsense. Kirkmans inventions are a disaster and don't fit. Jesus, Negan, the Governor (though I liked the shows version) Hilltop, that guy with the tiger.. what the hell! 

My one wish is that the writers are allowed to divorce themselves from the books altogether. I'm not surprised viewing figures are going down at all, why would people feel compelled to watch this show out of choice in its current state. 

[red snow]

The best version of Walking Dead is in the Telltale games. Better plotting, characterisation and is fully immersive thanks to the fact you control a character in the story.

I think the second half of season 4 and first half of 5 was when they were on the road and was also the point where they started all the split narratives and the pacing ground to a halt though. I was chatting with friends about this and how the trick the show pulls is by having an amazing episode somewhere in a season that clouds the overall season. eg season 4 has "the grove" (probably my favoirite episode) but the rest of those "on the road" episodes were poor. Largely because of their inability to interweave the separate groups within episodes.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

20 minutes ago, red snow said:

The best version of Walking Dead is in the Telltale games. Better plotting, characterisation and is fully immersive thanks to the fact you control a character in the story.

I think the second half of season 4 and first half of 5 was when they were on the road and was also the point where they started all the split narratives and the pacing ground to a halt though. I was chatting with friends about this and how the trick the show pulls is by having an amazing episode somewhere in a season that clouds the overall season. eg season 4 has "the grove" (probably my favoirite episode) but the rest of those "on the road" episodes were poor. Largely because of their inability to interweave the separate groups within episodes.

I kind of disagree. In fact I didn't care that the storys weren't interweaving was one of the reasons they worked so well. I thought it was the one time I enjoyed each of the individual stories, because they felt more standalone. Normally the show has you sitting in frustration waiting to get back to the interesting stuff (which is rare).

[Relic]

It's time to admit that season 2 was the best season of this show.