Baratheons are quite unsympathetic really

[tugela]

4 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Lol, I'm sure the fanatical red priestess whispering in his ear wouldn't be an issues for the overwhelming number of followers of the Faith in Westeros, I'm being sarcastic. It's always easy to say the guy who lost would've been better when you have absolutely no way of proving it. 

The only reason he was paying any attention to Melisandre was because she presented the possibility of helping him get the throne. Melisandre converted Selyse (she was the fanatical believer, not Stannis). Melisandre was a means to the end for Stannis.

His relationship to R'hllor was lukewarm at best, and could be paralleled to Justinian's relationship with Christianity (the fanatical believer was his mother, not Justinian himself, who still used aspects of pagan tradition during his reign as emperor - one of the reasons that modern Christianity is so heavily influenced by Mithratic practices) 

[tugela]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

GRRM is that you?

He was born out of wedlock to the mistress of a married man. That makes him illegitimate without question, both in terms of modern understanding and in terms of the customs of Westeros.

Not sure why you insist on thinking otherwise.

 

[RenlyIsNotRight]

22 minutes ago, tugela said:

Stannis was not hotheaded. He was cool and measured. A hard man, but one who was fair and just. He would probably have been a very good king. Certainly a hell of a lot better than Robert.

Stannis is hot headed though. He may not act on it in the way Robert did its pretty obvious when his buttons get pushed.

I'm a Stannis fan btw so I don't mean that as an attack.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, tugela said:

He was born out of wedlock to the mistress of a married man. That makes him illegitimate without question, both in terms of modern understanding and in terms of the customs of Westeros.

Not sure why you insist on thinking otherwise.

Are you GRRM? Because you are awfully sure about something that you haven't known if you weren't the author.

[Valens]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

About that. To quote a perfect analysis from an older thread;

 

Lol, that Nyrex...talk about a massive case of Robert-love. I mean, to say Robert was better than AEGON THE CONQUEROR in ANY WAY, is just pure stupidity. And Aegon DID have many houses on his side, especially in the Riverlands. The Greyjoy's also supported him.

[OuttaOldtown]

3 minutes ago, tugela said:

The only reason he was paying any attention to Melisandre was because she presented the possibility of helping him get the throne. Melisandre converted Selyse (she was the fanatical believer, not Stannis). Melisandre was a means to the end for Stannis.

His relationship to R'hllor was lukewarm at best, and could be paralleled to Justinian's relationship with Christianity (the fanatical believer was his mother, not Justinian himself, who still used aspects of pagan tradition during his reign as emperor - one of the reasons that modern Christianity is so heavily influenced by Mithratic practices) 

I don't agree, you're basing it on the relationship we know him to have, not by the view of the people and I highly doubt Septons would share your view. Stannis is responsible for everything Mel does as it was he who took her into his service..

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Valens said:

Lol, that Nyrex...talk about a massive case of Robert-love. I mean, to say Robert was better than AEGON THE CONQUEROR in ANY WAY, is just pure stupidity. And Aegon DID have many houses on his side, especially in the Riverlands. The Greyjoy's also supported him.

What do we know about Aegon? That he used his dragons to kill people because he felt entitled to do it and started a war campaign to a foreign continent. Robert started a Rebellion accompanied with three more Great Lords in order to save them for am mad King. One did it for pleasure and because he felt entitled with no support and the other did it to save himself and had the support of local High Lords. Hence from that fact alone Robert is already better at. at least one thing.

[OuttaOldtown]

3 minutes ago, Valens said:

Lol, that Nyrex...talk about a massive case of Robert-love. I mean, to say Robert was better than AEGON THE CONQUEROR in ANY WAY, is just pure stupidity. And Aegon DID have many houses on his side, especially in the Riverlands. The Greyjoy's also supported him.

It's laughable! The fact that Robert wasn't even able to pass the crown to a true heir shows again how truly pathetic he was, Aegon's lineage ruled for generations.. 

[Valens]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What do we know about Aegon? That he used his dragons to kill people because he felt entitled to do it and started a war campaign to a foreign continent. Robert started a Rebellion accompanied with three more Great Lords in order to save them for am mad King. One did it for pleasure and because he felt entitled with no support and the other did it to save himself and had the support of local High Lords. Hence from that fact alone Robert is already better at. at least one thing.

 

Saving the world from a mad king was not his number one priority and you KNOW that. So please, don't sugarcoat it. It was Lyanna which was the main reason for his participation in the rebellion, everyone knows that by now. And second, Robert didn't start the rebellion, Jon Arryn did, formally, when he disobeyed Aerys' command to bring him Robert and Ned. Aegon turned Westeros into a more united and more efficient place than it was when he got there, or before he got there. That NOBODY can dispute. What happened after he died he cannot be held responsible for, naturally. But he was a superb ruler. He used dragons because it was the most efficient thing to do and it shortened all those wars/battles. Otherwise it all would have lasted much longer and cost even more lives, probably.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Valens said:

Saving the world from a mad king was not his number one priority and you KNOW that. So please, don't sugarcoat it. It was Lyanna which was the main reason for his participation in the rebellion, everyone knows that by now. And second, Robert didn't start the rebellion, Jon Arryn did, formally, when he disobeyed Aerys' command to bring him Robert and Ned. Aegon turned Westeros into a more united and more efficient place than it was when he got there, or before he got there. That NOBODY can dispute. What happened after he died he cannot be held responsible for, naturally. But he was a superb ruler. He used dragons because it was the most efficient thing to do and it shortened all those wars/battles. Otherwise it all would have lasted much longer and cost even more lives, probably.

Wait so now Lyanna is the reason and it's all Rhaegar's fault? 

Sorry I don't agree with WMD so no Aegon was an usurper. You may disagree and that is fine but you will never make me agree with you that Aegon was right.

[Nyrhex]

22 minutes ago, Valens said:

Lol, that Nyrex...talk about a massive case of Robert-love. I mean, to say Robert was better than AEGON THE CONQUEROR in ANY WAY, is just pure stupidity. And Aegon DID have many houses on his side, especially in the Riverlands. The Greyjoy's also supported him.

What the fuck in any of that gave you the impression that I like Robert?

Like really, way to ignore the actual point by throwing around "oh yer just a h8er". I don't like Robert, or Aegon. But more than that I don't like when people throw around bullshit and then call the definitions in a dictionary pure stupidity because it messe up with thier fantasy that thier favs are right and everyone else is just lame.

Aegon had fewer than 1,300 men when he launched his war of conquest. The houses that joined him from then on did so during the war that he launched, claiming crowns he had no shred of claim to. The Stormlands refused his counter-offer of a marriage, and he declares himself king of Westeros. What does it have to do with anything? 

He went to war against the Ironborn, and the Greyjoys did not support him, they were chosen by the other Ironborn after Aegon invaded the isles and had them choose from amongst themselves to rule over themselves. When Harren and his line were burned to death, the Riverlands were given to the first to bend the knee - the Tullys. They supported Aegon over thier Ironborn overlords, and they were not a kingdom at the time. The Seven Kingdoms does not include the Kingdom of Rivers and Hills in the list because it ceased to exist long before.

It's:

1. Kingdom of the North

2. Kingdom of Mountain and Vale

3. Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers

4. Kingdom of the Rock

5. Kingdom of the Reach

6. Kingdom of the Storm

Notice that it does not include the Principality of Dorne, what should have been kingdom number 7 and has a spot right there in the title of the realm, since Aegon laid claim to it and tried to invade it, but never managed to conquer it. Robert did, so get your fanboy boner under control, Robert was better than Aegon in conquering at least, and he did it without dragons. 

Now the point you are missing entirely is that Aegon fucking straight up declared war, without provocation, against 7 independent kingdoms, while he himself had fuck all claim to any of them. He managed to conquer 6 of them and usurp the titles for himself. In contrast, Robert rose in a justified rebellion, deposed the king, and laid claim by right of conquest with the popular support of the North, the Vale, the Iron Islands, the Westerlands, the Riverlands, and naturally the Stormlands. So yes, he had a hell of a lot more legal claim than Aegon ever had. You don't have to love the guy to face basic facts. You do have to be a fanboy to pretend that the Targaryens are the only ones allowed to have Right of Conquest, either because you are an Aegon fanboy or a Dany/Jon fanboy who wants them to still have claim.

 

Oh and talking shit about a poster who is not even in the thread is usually considered a dick move. 

 

[Valens]

28 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

What the fuck in any of that gave you the impression that I like Robert?

Like really, way to ignore the actual point by throwing around "oh yer just a h8er". I don't like Robert, or Aegon. But more than that I don't like when people throw around bullshit and then call the definitions in a dictionary pure stupidity because it messe up with thier fantasy that thier favs are right and everyone else is just lame.

Aegon had fewer than 1,300 men when he launched his war of conquest. The houses that joined him from then on did so during the war that he launched, claiming crowns he had no shred of claim to. The Stormlands refused his counter-offer of a marriage, and he declares himself king of Westeros. What does it have to do with anything? 

He went to war against the Ironborn, and the Greyjoys did not support him, they were chosen by the other Ironborn after Aegon invaded the isles and had them choose from amongst themselves to rule over themselves. When Harren and his line were burned to death, the Riverlands were given to the first to bend the knee - the Tullys. They supported Aegon over thier Ironborn overlords, and they were not a kingdom at the time. The Seven Kingdoms does not include the Kingdom of Rivers and Hills in the list because it ceased to exist long before.

It's:

1. Kingdom of the North

2. Kingdom of Mountain and Vale

3. Kingdom of the Isles and the Rivers

4. Kingdom of the Rock

5. Kingdom of the Reach

6. Kingdom of the Storm

Notice that it does not include the Principality of Dorne, what should have been kingdom number 7 and has a spot right there in the title of the realm, since Aegon laid claim to it and tried to invade it, but never managed to conquer it. Robert did, so get your fanboy boner under control, Robert was better than Aegon in conquering at least, and he did it without dragons. 

Now the point you are missing entirely is that Aegon fucking straight up declared war, without provocation, against 7 independent kingdoms, while he himself had fuck all claim to any of them. He managed to conquer 6 of them and usurp the titles for himself. In contrast, Robert rose in a justified rebellion, deposed the king, and laid claim by right of conquest with the popular support of the North, the Vale, the Iron Islands, the Westerlands, the Riverlands, and naturally the Stormlands. So yes, he had a hell of a lot more legal claim than Aegon ever had. You don't have to love the guy to face basic facts. You do have to be a fanboy to pretend that the Targaryens are the only ones allowed to have Right of Conquest, either because you are an Aegon fanboy or a Dany/Jon fanboy who wants them to still have claim.

 

Oh and talking shit about a poster who is not even in the thread is usually considered a dick move. 

 

You are in it NOW. And...I don't really give a damn about all that. Robert never conquered Dorne either, nobody did, at least not for good. So, you say you don't like Robert but you STILL insist he did the conquering better than Aegon-thats preposterous! I am neither an Aegon fanboy or a Dany/Jon fanboy, I just think Robert is a pig. He wasn't always a pig perhaps, but for most of his life he was.

[OuttaOldtown]

1 hour ago, Nyrhex said:

What the fuck in any of that gave you the impression that I like Robert?

Like really, way to ignore the actual point by throwing around "oh yer just a h8er". I don't like Robert, or Aegon. But more than that I don't like when people throw around bullshit and then call the definitions in a dictionary pure stupidity because it messe up with thier fantasy that thier favs are right and everyone else is just lame.

...

Robert did, so get your fanboy boner under control, Robert was better than Aegon in conquering at least, and he did it without dragons. 

 

 

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, 'my favorite conqueror is better than your favorite conqueror'. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Nyrhex said:

snip

Sorry for that Nyrhex, I didn't knew that would had ended like that. My mistake.

[El Guapo]

2 hours ago, tugela said:

Once Viserys was dead Robert was the rightful king. He was the next male in line for the throne. As things currently stand, Tommen is the legitimate king by birth, irrespective of what all else happened before.

No he wasn't.  Robert is not a Targrayen male. The next in line after Viserys was Daenerys.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

No he wasn't.  Robert is not a Targrayen male. The next in line after Viserys was Daenerys.

No she isn't the council of 101 has said so. 

[Titanius Anglesmith]

I find Tommen to be pretty sympathetic.  Good-natured kid pulled every direction like a chew toy between a few dogs.  If Grandad was around for a bit longer Tom might have learned the skills that he needs, but as it stands he's going to get screwed when life attacks.

Edit: I know that he's a bastardo abomination.  Seeing as he was raised a Baratheon under Bobby B and I don't recall him knowing his true parentage, I lump him into the family.

[Valens]

54 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, 'my favorite conqueror is better than your favorite conqueror'. 

Haha, exactly. And one more thing: Robert had three armies with him, Aegon just those 1600 men and three dragons. I rest my case.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

3 hours ago, Valens said:

Lol, that Nyrex...talk about a massive case of Robert-love. I mean, to say Robert was better than AEGON THE CONQUEROR in ANY WAY, is just pure stupidity. And Aegon DID have many houses on his side, especially in the Riverlands. The Greyjoy's also supported him.

Where on earth in that post does it say Robert was better than Aegon?  It simply states the facts around the definition of conqueror and usurper and compares their two cases.  The argument could be made that Aegon was better because he still triumphed with so little support.  And the support Aegon did have was only a few houses in the crownlands. The support in the Riverlands and from the Greyjoy's was just basically, because dragons.  I'm pretty sure I'd support somebody who had a dragon pointed at me too, though I wouldn't count that as real and true 'support' however.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

3 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

It's laughable! The fact that Robert wasn't even able to pass the crown to a true heir shows again how truly pathetic he was, Aegon's lineage ruled for generations.. 

Robert should have just married his brothers.  Then everything would be okay...