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Baratheons are quite unsympathetic really


Valens

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Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

They were also living at the streets with no one to protect them and they were not killed,also even in a palace a hired knife can kill. If anything Robert was lenient and generous. 

As I already wrote, it doesn't really matter what he did after the sack. Not actively going after Targaryen survivors doesn't earn him any redemption. A pig deserves to die like one..

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6 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

As I already wrote, it doesn't really matter what he did after the sack. Not actively going after Targaryen survivors doesn't earn him any redemption. A pig deserves to die like one..

Does Dany have to die for killing those 12 years old who wear tokars or for not punishing those who killed the 163 slaves?

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20 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Ned was a honorable idiot, he was the man who caused a war because he could't understood how politics work.

When Robert ordered the death of Aegon, Rhaenys and Viserys? If you have to blame him for ordering Dany's death after her marriage you have to blame Dany for ordering the death of those 12 years old who wear tokars, those were children too.

 

Ned is an honorable idiot but at least his children are his.

Robert didn't punished the landed knight who massacred and raped the royal family. That set a precedence because from then on kings and princesses started to die like flies. Also if Robert was bright he would have copied his bastard ancestor who gained legitimacy by marrying a Durrandon. If Robert punished Gregor for his crime (he is small fry and dispensable), then he would have had a bigger chance to negotiate the return to Viserys and Danny under his protection. Once that occur, Viserys could suffer an illness and Danny would become the perfect wife for Joffrey Baratheon, sealing legitimacy to his crown

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3 minutes ago, devilish said:

Ned is an honorable idiot but at least his children are his.

Robert didn't punished the landed knight who massacred and raped the royal family. That set a precedence because from then on kings and princesses started to die like flies. Also if Robert was bright he would have copied his bastard ancestor who gained legitimacy by marrying a Durrandon. If Robert punished Gregor for his crime (he is small fry and dispensable), then he would have had a bigger chance to negotiate the return to Viserys and Danny under his protection. Once that occur, Viserys could suffer an illness and Danny would become the perfect wife for Joffrey Baratheon, sealing legitimacy to his crown

Should Robb had punished Hoster for his crimes? Also Gregor may be just a knight but he was Tywin's man. No matter what emotions and honor say all the Targs had to die in order to secure the new dynasty.

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On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 6:50 AM, King Endymion Targaryen said:

Shireen is not the same with her family. She is kind, good-hearted and seems to care for lowborn/"simple" people (Edric, Davos,Patchface)

 

 

 

True about Shireen, but her father cared about Davos (a low born) after a fashion and in his own way, even raising him to knight and then to lord based on Davos' honesty, ability to keep faith and willingness to tell truth to power.

 

Robert seemed good hearted in his own way too. Robert is actually one of my favorite characters and I think he gets a lot of unfair shit. Keep in mind that at a young age, due to the death of his parents, he became the Lord of Storms End and Lord Paramount of the Storm Lands. That is a lot for a child. ON top of which he was a huge man and a fierce warrior and was charismatic to the point where people had no clue how to say no to him. People often look at that like it is a good thing and he was lucky, but he had a loving and caring heart and often, I believe, found it very difficult to deal with these things. It is kind of like how child celebrities become drug addicts.

 

But he never was a jerk. He may not have doted on his Bastards, but he did ensure they were taken care of and not just edric who was born of a noble mother, but also the ones born of whores. Robert was truly flawed but there is no reason to say he wasn't good hearted and cared for lowborn or simple people the way you say about Shireen.

 

Renly too. I love the character. He and Loras and that entire generation who were born too late to participate in the rebellion and prove themselves but are old enough to be lords in truth while the slightly elder siblings who fought in the wars were still ruling. Loras is constantly put down "yes he can knock people off of horses with a lance but which knights has he killed" and Renly always having to live in his elder brothers shadow. But Renly inspired the love and loyalty of people like Penrose who would rather die than give him up to Stannis. This tells me he was also someone who showed a lot of care for the people beneath him.

 

I see all three of the Baratheon brothers as being very good hearted people in their own, often flawed, ways. In a way, Shireen really mimics that with her grayscale. She is a very good person but marred in some ways just like Robert, Stannis and Renly.

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2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Let's put it like that. From everything we know Robert was hot tempered, sometimes irresponsible and liked to fight, to drink and have sex but he wasn’t cruel or sadist. There is nothing in the books to say that he has hurt someone just for pleasure and from what even people who didn't liked him say we learn that he was a good man.

Cersei on the other hand has shown some disturbing signs since she was very young. She abused her baby brother when she was 7, killed her friend when she was 10, manipulated her twin when she was a teen. She later enjoyed torturing, maiming and killing.

Their marriage was bad but at least at the beginning Robert had tried to make the marriage work, in his own way sure but at least he had tried. Cersei on the other hand had never tried to do the same and had declined Robert’s efforts. From what we know she wasn’t willing to make an effort for any marriage to work. What she wanted was just people worship her and she would had been pleased with a male copy of herself. In conclusion I believe that the marriage was destined to fail and I blame Cersei because at least Robert had tried to make the wedding to work.

I don't remember when Robert publicly humiliated Cersei. But I may had forgotten it. As I said^ I believe that the marriage was destined to fail and I blame Cersei because at least Robert had tried to make the wedding to work.

But he took pleasure, or at least satisfaction, at seeing the corpses of Rhaegar's children. His hatred is astonishing. Consuming, it consumed his soul and made all his good sides pale in comparison. THAT'S what I dislike about Robert, primarily. So the guy liked women. So he grew fat after he got the throne. Not my thing to judge that. But the fact that he called Rhaegar's DEAD CHILDREN dragonspawn is really quite astonishing. And that, my friend, makes a pretty strong case for the fact that he WAS cruel.

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1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't recall Martells saying something like that, just the GoT's Oberyn mentioning that Robert wasn't one of those who blamed. In any case, Robert wasn't formally crowned when this happen and it's not logical for someone to punish his most dangerous and powerful new ally for something he did before he had any actual power. By the same logic Robb should had punished Hoster for his crimes before he became the King. Also it wasn't Robert who rewarded Tywin, it was Jon Arryn, if you, in general, have to blame Robert for not ruling but left the ruling to his Hand and small council, you have no reason to blame him for something that he hadn't done. Should he had punished Tywin?

Aegon the Unlikely's first act as King was to condemn Bryndyn Rivers for  betraying that Blackfyre claimant. It probably would have been a bad political move to pin it on Tywin, but he could have at least demanded the heads of the men who killed Rhaegars children. The reason he didn't, wasn't because his hands were tied, it's because he viewed them as "dragon spawn."

Ned Starks reaction to the murder of Rhaegar's children was a normal one. That's how normal people react to something like that. Robert's reaction was abnormal. At least at the end of his life he had the decency to regret calling for the murder of a 14 year old girl and her infant.

People are complex, and there was good in Robert, but there were also things that were shameful.

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17 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Does Dany have to die for killing those 12 years old who wear tokars or for not punishing those who killed the 163 slaves?

Dany is a sociopath and a war criminal....no questions asked.

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10 minutes ago, Valens said:

But he took pleasure, or at least satisfaction, at seeing the corpses of Rhaegar's children. His hatred is astonishing. Consuming, it consumed his soul and made all his good sides pale in comparison. THAT'S what I dislike about Robert, primarily. So the guy liked women. So he grew fat after he got the throne. Not my thing to judge that. But the fact that he called Rhaegar's DEAD CHILDREN dragonspawn is really quite astonishing.

People tend to hate everything that has to do with the person who destroyed theil life.

8 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

LOL, I have zero sympathy for those Ghiscari scumbags, kill every last one for all I care..

You are talking about 12 years old and maybe even younger. Dany was older when she married. You do understand that what you say is hypocritical right? And you had still haven't answered if Robb should had punished Hoster.

10 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

kill every last one for all I care..

By your logic, Kill every one of those abominations born from incest!

5 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Dany is a sociopath and a war criminal....no questions asked.

True, however her crimes are a great way to prove how much of a hypocrite someone can be.Robert ordering Dany's death after she started to actively conspiring to attack Westeros is a unethical but Dany killing 12 years old and even younger than that is fair game.

8 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Aegon the Unlikely's first act as King was to condemn Bryndyn Rivers for  betraying that Blackfyre claimant. It probably would have been a bad political move to pin it on Tywin, but he could have at least demanded the heads of the men who killed Rhaegars children. The reason he didn't, wasn't because his hands were tied, it's because he viewed them as "dragon spawn.

Tywin was his most powerful, wicked and rich ally. Attacking him in any way even through his men, just like in Ilyn Payne's case, would had been stupid.
11 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Ned Starks reaction to the murder of Rhaegar's children was a normal one. That's how normal people react to something like that. Robert's reaction was abnormal.

As I said before; People tend to hate everything that has to do with the person who destroyed theil life.

12 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

At least at the end of his life he had the decency to regret calling for the murder of a 14 year old girl and her infant

He didn't just regret it he canceled the order. 

13 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

People are complex, and there was good in Robert, but there were also things that were shameful.

True.

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Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

People tend to hate everything that has to do with the person who destroyed theil life.

You are talking about 12 years old and maybe even younger. Dany was older when she married. You do understand that what you say is hypocritical right? And you had still haven't answered if Robb should had punished Hoster.

By your logic, Kill every one of those abominations born from incest!

True, however her crimes are a great way to prove how much of a hypocrite someone can be.Robert ordering Dany's death after she started to actively conspiring to attack Westeros is a unethical but Dany killing 12 years old and even younger than that is fair game.

 

No more hypocritical than you pardoning Robert because you like him, I despise the culture of Slavers Bay and have ZERO sympathy. I don't really care what it makes me. Yes, Elia and her children are different and mean more to me than every piece of shit Ghiscari in SB. Kill em all! :D

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1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

True, however her crimes are a great way to prove how much of a hypocrite someone can be.Robert ordering Dany's death after she started to actively conspiring to attack Westeros is a unethical but Dany killing 12 years old and even younger than that is fair game.

Agreed which is why, even though I dislike Dany, I think she is an absolutely brilliant character. Her cruelty and hypocrisy add such a layer to not just her story not just Roberts story but the whole history of westerosi feudal governance.

 

Also, for those who think Robert cruel to order the death of Dany. It is never outside the scope of reason for a King to order the death of a rebel who is specifically trying to invade the kingdom with an army of barbarian, savage rapists. Like him or hate him, Pycelle was right. Can you imagine a Dothraki hoard in westeros. It is far kinder to slit Dany's throat than allow your kingdom to fall prey to barbarians.

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On 25/7/2016 at 4:44 PM, devilish said:

When exactly did Robert shown to be kind and good hearted?

Throught Ned's chapters we see that Robert (despite his weaknesses) was good.

 

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't remember when Robert publicly humiliated Cersei. But I may had forgotten it. As I said^ I believe that the marriage was destined to fail and I blame Cersei because at least Robert had tried to make the wedding to work.

His whoring and infidelity were no secret. In the tourney of the Hand he was offencive to Cersei.When he hit her the bruises were visible for everyone to see.How exactly did Robert try to make the wedding work?Even on her first night he called her Lyanna. 

 

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3 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

No more hypocritical than you pardoning Robert because you like him, I despise the culture of Slavers Bay and have ZERO sympathy. I don't really care what it makes me. Yes, Elia and her children are different and mean more to me than every piece of shit Ghiscari in SB. Kill em all! :D

Indeed. Sacking Astapor was one of Dany's finest moments.

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1 minute ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

.How exactly did Robert try to make the wedding work?Even on her first night he called her Lyanna. 

This was a political marriage between the daughter of a high lord and the king. It was not incumbent on Robert to make this wedding work. It is Cersei's job to obey the king. She cuckolded him, bore children with her own brother, and in no way played the subservient role that she was expected to. If Selyse was anything like that to Stannis she probably would have lost her head.

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4 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

No more hypocritical than you pardoning Robert because you like him, I despise the culture of Slavers Bay and have ZERO sympathy. I don't really care what it makes me. Yes, Elia and her children are different and mean more to me than every piece of shit Ghiscari in SB. Kill em all! :D

You do understand that 12 years old had no power over what happened at their life just like how Dany was sold to Drogo right? Do you also blame Sansa for Lady and Ned? Heck even in Westeros 12 years old are not allowed to do what they want no matter who they are and will need a Regent. 

Brother sister incest is one of the most vile things. So every Targ should die!

3 minutes ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

How exactly did Robert try to make the wedding work?Even on her first night he called her Lyanna. 

Cersei herself has told that Robert tried to organise things to do together and she always said no.

9 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Agreed which is why, even though I dislike Dany, I think she is an absolutely brilliant character. Her cruelty and hypocrisy add such a layer to not just her story not just Roberts story but the whole history of westerosi feudal governance.

Also, for those who think Robert cruel to order the death of Dany. It is never outside the scope of reason for a King to order the death of a rebel who is specifically trying to invade the kingdom with an army of barbarian, savage rapists. Like him or hate him, Pycelle was right. Can you imagine a Dothraki hoard in westeros. It is far kinder to slit Dany's throat than allow your kingdom to fall prey to barbarians.

It's really funny when someone claim that you are biased and they prove how biased he is. The hypocrisy is just hilarious!

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38 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Should Robb had punished Hoster for his crimes? Also Gregor may be just a knight but he was Tywin's man. No matter what emotions and honor say all the Targs had to die in order to secure the new dynasty.

Gregor was expendable. If Robert executed him, no one would bat an eyelid about him as long as Robert married the blondie. If the Baratheon oaf promised Tywin to release Jamie from the KG after handling Gregor to justice than rest assured that Tywin would have executed the Mountain himself if needs be. 

If Viserys suffered an accident then Joffrey-Danny marriage would be copy and paste to that between the bastard and Argella Durrandon

What had Hoster done? 

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Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You do understand that 12 years old had no power over what happened at their life just like how Dany was sold to Drogo right? Do you also blame Sansa for Lady and Ned? Heck even in Westeros 12 years old are not allowed to do what they want no matter who they are and will need a Regent. 

 

I do and have ZERO sympathy for them or if their culture is eradicated. What part are you not understanding? 

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