Baratheons are quite unsympathetic really

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, OuttaOldtown said:

I do and have ZERO sympathy for them or if their culture is eradicated. What part are you not understanding? 

Those people you are talking about were younger than Dany when she was married. By your logic it doesn't matter what someone has done or how old they are what it matters is who were their family. So tell me again why killing the Targs were a bad thing? Let me guess because you like the Targs. Seriously you don't understand how this reeks of hypocrisy?

[YOVMO]

9 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The hypocrisy is just hilarious!

I used to find it hilarious, now it is getting annoying. The whole "I hate Robert because he is a murderer of children and Dany is so great because the children she murders belong to a culture I don't like" argument has so much cognitive dissonance and insanity in it that I honestly can't understand how anyone maintains it. I guess to each their own and all, I just don't get it.

[OuttaOldtown]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Those people you are talking about were younger than Dany when she was married. By your logic it doesn't matter what someone has done or how old they are what it matters is who were their family. So tell me again why killing the Targs were a bad thing? Let me guess because you like the Targs. Seriously you don't understand how this reeks of hypocrisy?

Tell me another way to eradicate slavery? Waiting for that generation of young slavers to decide its wrong? Keep dreaming, kill every last one of them, burn their cities to the ground. The only mistake Dany made was leaving any alive and staying there..

[OuttaOldtown]

6 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I used to find it hilarious, now it is getting annoying. The whole "I hate Robert because he is a murderer of children and Dany is so great because the children she murders belong to a culture I don't like" argument has so much cognitive dissonance and insanity in it that I honestly can't understand how anyone maintains it. I guess to each their own and all, I just don't get it.

What would you do if your doctor told you that 'they're just young cancer cells'? 

[YOVMO]

Just now, OuttaOldtown said:

What would you do if your doctor told you that 'they're just young cancer cells'? 

It is simply not an analogous situation. I can't argue it. There is plenty of material on this site and every time I get into a discussion about this I get so annoyed with the lack of sense being made that I either wind up saying something nasty or just being annoyed all day. So I am going to let this one go. I can tell by the veracity and demonstrative nature of your claims that you are not a person who is interested in trying to understand and possibly re-evaluate your thinking but rather just argue and that is not something I want. Further, that I cannot change your opinion or appeal to any sense of rationality means that it would just be banging my head against a wall. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

20 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Tell me another way to eradicate slavery? Waiting for that generation of young slavers to decide its wrong? Keep dreaming, kill every last one of them, burn their cities to the ground. The only mistake Dany made was leaving any alive and staying there..

Tell me again another way to eradicate incest or another what to eradicate the genes of Targaryen madness. By your logic whatever someone doesn't like and want to change the way to do it is to kill everyone even the childre. You know that the more you talk the more you agree with genocide right?

22 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I used to find it hilarious, now it is getting annoying. The whole "I hate Robert because he is a murderer of children and Dany is so great because the children she murders belong to a culture I don't like" argument has so much cognitive dissonance and insanity in it that I honestly can't understand how anyone maintains it. I guess to each their own and all, I just don't get it.

It's just funny how people prove to be hypocritical when they have to face the actions of the characters they like.

14 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

What would you do if your doctor told you that 'they're just young cancer cells'? 

Do you seriously compare young people with cancer cells? That went from just hypocritical to vile and vulgar in a sentence. Ingore list instantly.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

@YOVMO I reply to both your posts here.

I have said in a previous post that Stannis doesn't care about being lowborn or highborn and has many other strengths but kindness and good heart are not two of them.

It depends on the aspect of Robert you choose to follow:

• The charming,strong and funny young lord of Storms End who managed to overthrow the Targaryens and turn his friends to allies (which is a sign of good heart)?This fits to Ned's view of Robert and generally to Robert's behaviour to Ned in GOT.
• The bad husband and father we see in GOT,the man who tried to avoid conflict,the king who was bored to attend the meeteing of the small council.

My point is not that he is shitty, bad , jerk,etc but he is not sympathetic. All you say about Cersei is true but Robert didn't know any of these. He only knew that she was not obedient to him.He still considered her his wife and mother of his children. 

The same Renly who told Ned to arrest Joffrey so as to have him under control and when Ned refused he left him to die?Ok he seems good and caring but in COK he plays to role of "the good king" so I don't know how much of his behaviour is fake.

@Jon's Queen Consort Except the hunting, Cersei doesn't mention anything else. This was not much to make the wedding work if the bad behaviours were repeated (from both).

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, King Endymion Targaryen said:

@Jon's Queen Consort Except the hunting, Cersei doesn't mention anything else. This was not much to make the wedding work if the bad behaviours were repeated (from both).

And yet he did made an effort, Cersei had never done the same.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

And yet he did made an effort, Cersei had never done the same.

Going to Greenstone was. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

54 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Tywin was his most powerful, wicked and rich ally. Attacking him in any way even through his men, just like in Ilyn Payne's case, would had been stupid.

I could argue that Tywin would have handed Gregor and Lorch over to Robert as quickly as he was willing to hand them over to the Martells. And I could use Illyn Payne as my example. Tywin didn't really do anything about that.

But it wasn't politics. It was personal

[OuttaOldtown]

19 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Tell me again another way to eradicate incest or another what to eradicate the genes of Targaryen madness. By your logic whatever someone doesn't like and want to change the way to do it is to kill everyone even the childre. You know that the more you talk the more you agree with genocide right?

It's just funny how people prove to be hypocritical when they have to face the actions of the characters they like.

Do you seriously compare young people with cancer cells? That went from just hypocritical to vile and vulgar in a sentence. Ingore list instantly.

Yes, I compare a culture of slavery to cancer, absolutely! 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

Going to Greenstone was. 

Are you serious? 

5 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I could argue that Tywin would have handed Gregor and Lorch over to Robert as quickly as he was willing to hand them over to the Martells. And I could use Illyn Payne as my example. Tywin didn't really do anything about that.

But it wasn't politics. It was personal

Yet Tywin blamed Aerys for Ilyn and Robert couldn't had risked Tywin's support. 

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

@YOVMO I reply to both your posts here.

I have said in a previous post that Stannis doesn't care about being lowborn or highborn and has many other strengths but kindness and good heart are not two of them.

I see what you mean here, truly, but I feel there is a certain kindness and goodheartedness to Stannis...just, not in the way one would normally expect to see it. He doesn't have the kind of compassion for people that would put their feelings anywhere near his radar. But that said, his strict belief in Duty and Honor is something that is a kindness to the realm in a real....and often times difficult and dangerous....way

 

It is like the old story of whether it is kinder to tell a pleasant lie or a harsh truth. Stannis has chosen the former. Of course he isn't what I would call warm and cuddly, but I would argue he has a good heart as duty in the face of adversity isn't, from him, self aggrandizing but rather doing the right thing.

1 minute ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

It depends on the aspect of Robert you choose to follow:

• The charming,strong and funny young lord of Storms End who managed to overthrow the Targaryens and turn his friends to allies (which is a sign of good heart)?This fits to Ned's view of Robert and generally to Robert's behaviour to Ned in GOT.
• The bad husband and father we see in GOT,the man who tried to avoid conflict,the king who was bored to attend the meeteing of the small council.

I am not sure one aspect is possible without the other. Robert was a candle burning at both ends. He was a bright star destined to burn out. His contradictions...fierceness, arnger mixed with his carm and hilarity are part of a psychology that rarely gets credit for just how complicated it was.

1 minute ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

My point is not that he is shitty, bad , jerk,etc but he is not sympathetic. All you say about Cersei is true but Robert didn't know any of these. He only knew that she was not obedient to him.He still considered her his wife and mother of his children. 

You are right. There is no way to prove this, but I always got the sense that Robert's indifference to his children (and general loathing of Lannisters) came from the fact that while he didn't know it, he had an innate sense that Cersei's children were not his. He is said to be very loving around his bastard children, even the one with the whore. He was the kind of man who really liked children. The fact that he paid no interest to his own made me feel that somewhere deep down he knew what they were and it was a terrible shame and pain to him which, in part, contributed to his outlandish and drunken behavior to escape.

1 minute ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

The same Renly who told Ned to arrest Joffrey so as to have him under control and when Ned refused he left him to die?Ok he seems good and caring but in COK he plays to role of "the good king" so I don't know how much of his behaviour is fake.

Renly is a tricky character for sure. Remember, he didn't suggest arresting Joffrey and then placing him in a black cell. He simply said to keep him under control because whomsoever controls the king controls the kingdom. He knew exactly what would happen if Cersei had unfettered access to Joff. He tried everything to get Ned to follow some sensible course of action and when he saw that it was all for naught he left to save his own skin. He wasn't noble the way that Stannis was, but he had a certain pragmatism in his actions.

Also, playing the role of the good king required the love of the people he ruled. Even Stannis admits, in a way that almost makes me feel he was jealous, that Renly has an easy way about him and is very easy to love. Some of it is fake. Some of it is trying to prove himself because while everyone else was taking part in the rebellion he was still too young.

 

I think Catelyn had the true measure of Renly (and many of his knights); they are the knights of spring. They were young, brash and had the need to prove themselves. However, the loyalty Renly inspired was not something that would have been possible if he was bad. By all accounts, Renly treated people in his service very kindly. Even look at the way he danced with Brienne and made her feel better when she was made to be the butt of a huge joke. There is a reason that Brienne loved renly and it wasn't just because he was tall and handsome.

 

Was it fake? I don't know. I am reminded of what Dumbledore says to Harry when harry asks him if it is all in his head. "Of course it is all in your head. does that make it any less real"

1 minute ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

@Jon's Queen Consort Except the hunting, Cersei doesn't mention anything else. This was not much to make the wedding work if the bad behaviours were repeated (from both).

 

The fact that Robert was king and by marrying her made Cersei queen should have been plenty.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

38 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

It is simply not an analogous situation. I can't argue it. There is plenty of material on this site and every time I get into a discussion about this I get so annoyed with the lack of sense being made that I either wind up saying something nasty or just being annoyed all day. So I am going to let this one go. I can tell by the veracity and demonstrative nature of your claims that you are not a person who is interested in trying to understand and possibly re-evaluate your thinking but rather just argue and that is not something I want. Further, that I cannot change your opinion or appeal to any sense of rationality means that it would just be banging my head against a wall. 

I have to ask you a serious question why do you even bother to answer at someone who compares human beings and cancer cells?

[YOVMO]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I have to ask you a serious question why do you even bother to answer at someone who compares human beings and cancer cells?

It's a flaw of mine I am trying to overcome.

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I have to ask you a serious question why do you even bother to answer at someone who compares human beings and cancer cells?

if you would have said "people who compare human beings to cancer cells are like cancer cells and should not be responded to" you would finally be able to understand their position lol. That is, quite literally, exactly what they are saying only change "don't reply to" to "commit genocide upon"

 

You are right. It is funny.

[HoodedCrow]

I made a few attempts to bond with my proud wife, and after pining after my ex fiancé, (who loved me and was keen to marry me but ran off, scratch that, must have been abducted) loads of drinking, rape and beating her, taking no interest in the kids, womanizing and humiliating her in public didn't work, I gave up. Actually, apart from shagging, I don't bond with a any woman for long, unless they are already dead. But really, I tell my best bro that I tried. Trust me. Who is Gendry?

I suppose the marriage of Cersei and Robert is hell on wheels from both sides. Yikes.

As Robert was an alcoholic, and Cersei is a disaster,and for those reasons I can  can give him compassion, but he doesn't elicit much sympathy. To each his own.

He was a great warrior.

Its easier to like Renly or Stannis...for me.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

On 25/7/2016 at 10:44 AM, devilish said:

When exactly did Robert shown to be kind and good hearted?

Just some examples,

He only uses the knife Jon gave him as a young boy, not using any of the fancy ones he has as a king

 

Spent days along jons deathbed telling him stories and trying to make him feel better.

Called down the hit on daenerys while he was daying

Sent his maester to help Selmy insted of taking care of his own important wounds.

[Ruhail]

6 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

Just some examples,

He only uses the knife Jon gave him as a young boy, not using any of the fancy ones he has as a king

 

Spent days along jons deathbed telling him stories and trying to make him feel better.

Called down the hit on daenerys while he was daying

Sent his maester to help Selmy insted of taking care of his own important wounds.

He forgave the targ loyalists and let most keep their lands

He showed Balon mercy

 

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

Just some examples,

He only uses the knife Jon gave him as a young boy, not using any of the fancy ones he has as a king

 

Spent days along jons deathbed telling him stories and trying to make him feel better.

Called down the hit on daenerys while he was daying

Sent his maester to help Selmy insted of taking care of his own important wounds.

After the long trip from King's Landing (which he made in royal person) he immediately paid respects to the dead.

He was able to recognize, even if not eliminate, his own failures as a king, admit them to Ned which must have been hard for a man such as Robert to do, and recognize that Ned's leadership would be better for the realm.