A Timeframe of Ice and Fire: Two Books, Too Many Upcoming Conflicts Left To Go

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

What is this Winds of Winter of which everyone speaks? I don't think it is real. Next you'll have me believing in snarks and grumpkins!

[Whitering]

On 12/5/2016 at 11:12 AM, SuperMario said:

You way oversimplified Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's writing and over compensated for GRRM's. While LOTR is not quite as gray as ASOIAF, the story is not a black and white good versus evil story. There are several gray characters and scenes. Hell, even the heroes are tempted and commit bad acts.

And even knowing GRRM is writing a more nuanced, conflicted story, it's still his story that he knows how it ends. AfeastforDragons previous bulleted points sum up nicely the reasons the story is not being released. It doesn't have anything to do with it not being a pure good vs. evil story.

Also, a huge number of people forget that Saruman was explicitly sent to the continent to keep an eye on Sauron, he was a GOOD GUY, well, by the popular definition, who went really bad.

[Table8]

So, that's it right? There's no more hope that the books can get done.  This thread has destroyed all the bits of hope I had left.   GRRM's story is truly tragic.  Not for its content, but because some hacks are going to give the ending away.  And even if you assume D&D do a typical terrible job with plot holes galore, it seems highly unlikely that we will ever get the REAL story - whatever that even is.

 

shame.

[Farerb]

On 12/22/2016 at 0:00 AM, Table8 said:

So, that's it right? There's no more hope that the books can get done.  This thread has destroyed all the bits of hope I had left.   GRRM's story is truly tragic.  Not for its content, but because some hacks are going to give the ending away.  And even if you assume D&D do a typical terrible job with plot holes galore, it seems highly unlikely that we will ever get the REAL story - whatever that even is.

 

shame.

A shame is that people are ready to bury GRRM while he is still alive and kicking.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

2 hours ago, farerb said:

A shame is that people are ready to bury GRRM while he is still alive and kicking.

And healthy too... aaand i triggered the body shamers.

[aFeastForDragons]

On 21 December 2016 at 10:00 PM, Table8 said:

So, that's it right? There's no more hope that the books can get done.  This thread has destroyed all the bits of hope I had left.   GRRM's story is truly tragic.  Not for its content, but because some hacks are going to give the ending away.  And even if you assume D&D do a typical terrible job with plot holes galore, it seems highly unlikely that we will ever get the REAL story - whatever that even is.

 

I'm afraid so. Its Winter 2016 and still no sign of TWOW but season 7 of the show is moving rapidly along with a Summer release. If it didn't come out this year its very unlikely its coming out next year.

 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

6 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

 

I'm afraid so. Its Winter 2016 and still no sign of TWOW but season 7 of the show is moving rapidly along with a Summer release. If it didn't come out this year its very unlikely its coming out next year.

 

Who gives a rats ass if the show finishes it's a stage better than trash and they do not actually know how the books will end.

Spoiler

See the death of

Spoiler

Hodor episode.

Where D&D completely contradict themselves saying how they were "trying to get as much out of GRRM as possible and that was one thing he did share. 

 

[fabrik1980]

On 12/24/2016 at 8:06 AM, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Who gives a rats ass if the show finishes it's a stage better than trash and they do not actually know how the books will end.

  Reveal hidden contents

See the death of

  Reveal hidden contents

Hodor episode.

Where D&D completely contradict themselves saying how they were "trying to get as much out of GRRM as possible and that was one thing he did share. 

 

Last time I checked, GRRM was still getting paid for providing the source material to the show. D&D do know how the overall story will roughly end; they just don't know all the details. If the show ends with Jon and Dany dead while Tyrion survives after turning out to be a Targ, you can bet your ass the books were always intended to end the same way. Just because some subplots were discarded or changed doesn't mean they're making everything up as they go along.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

2 hours ago, fabrik1980 said:

Last time I checked, GRRM was still getting paid for providing the source material to the show. D&D do know how the overall story will roughly end; they just don't know all the details. If the show ends with Jon and Dany dead while Tyrion survives after turning out to be a Targ, you can bet your ass the books were always intended to end the same way. Just because some subplots were discarded or changed doesn't mean they're making everything up as they go along.

Well quote me when I'm wrong. 

[aFeastForDragons]

On 24 December 2016 at 7:06 AM, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Who gives a rats ass if the show finishes it's a stage better than trash and they do not actually know how the books will end

 

Well the biggest fear fans have is that when the show ends there will be an enormous backlash from fans towards George. This is the time bomb that will put him off ever finishing the story. Right now he's walking on a very thin rope.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

2 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

 

Well the biggest fear fans have is that when the show ends there will be an enormous backlash from fans towards George. This is the time bomb that will put him off ever finishing the story. Right now he's walking on a very thin rope.

I mean I understand that..... I guess... but I don't blame GRRM for the show. 

[The Egg]

Wow, I've been away for a year, and look what I find when I'm back... no more theories on how the story will end, but on IF the story will end!
And I like the fact none of you commented on the January update on Winds... Good thing, because that only confirmed our worst fears, he's not releasing the book anytime soon, no sooner than Christmas for sure. More likely, no sooner than the eight and final season.

Well, strating with the OP, I agree there's far too much to do for just two books, and if the pace is the one we've seen in AFFC and ADWD there's just no hope that that all will fit into two 1000 pages long books. But Ithink George can finish the saga in 2 books, as long as he does one of these:

1) Two MASSIVE books. I'm talking 1.5 times the size of Dance

2) Two bad books. He just makes the characters do what he needs to do to make the story go faster, or kills them never to catch up with their story ever again.

3) He makes things happen as fast as they used to in Game of Thrones.

I'm sure Martin doesn't want the second, this is his greatest opera and he wants it be GOOD. And unfortunately, the pace of the chapter he's released is no faster than any AFFC chapter, with things happening in The Forsaken chapter but Aryanne only learning things we already know and telling off her cousin not in one but in TWO whole chapters, which leaves the third option unlikely, if not impossible.
This leaves us with the first option, the massive books. We know that he has a 1500 page limit for the manuscript, which is roughly what he used for ASOS and ADWD, but I think that the publisher might change it if they don't think he'll be able to make it in 2 books. Because it's true that they'd sell more books, but they don't want to wait 20 more years for the end, and that's what happening if he indeed has to write another book.

So that's what I think it's happening: the reason why he's not publishing is not that he's not writing (although, for sure, he's writing slowly), but that he's adding things, he trying to bring the book to a conclusion, which means an awful lot of things have to happen, things have to build up yet, most of all Dany has to find a reason to leave Meereen and the the White Walker have to find a way past the Wall, things that require time. And winter, which is only just started.
I think we'll have two books, although not anytime soon. But at the same time, I'm quite sure the end of the TV show will release some stress from him, not add. After all, one of the main stress factors on him was that he needed to keep up with deadlines in order to keep up with the show. So having it get past him means he can write at his own pace, and having it finish, closing all its storylines, means the fans already have some sort of conclusion and he'll be free to forget D&D characters and focus on his own.

p.s. Oh, and by the way, Martin might have written some scenes he wants to add somewhere sooner all later (AKA Hodor, who's alive at the end, R+L=J, The Mad Queen and her valonqar) but I don't think he knows how the story ends. Maybe he thinks he knows, but eventually he's not following that route but the one his charaters want him to follow.
And if HE doesn't know it, D&D can't spoil anything - and by the way, I think they're doing a good job overall. Season 6 finale was great.

[Whitering]

There are several series I will never read again because the endings were, let's use George's word, bittersweet, so if the ending for the show is a little more bitter than sweet, why would I bother buying books that would destroy my ability to enjoy the rest of the series? I know he gave them the ending, I guess he could change it if fans actively hate it, but ehh, it's hard to predict how I will feel. I am not such a superfan I will just buy something I know I won't enjoy.

[T and A]

On 24.12.2016 at 8:06 AM, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Who gives a rats ass if the show finishes it's a stage better than trash and they do not actually know how the books will end.

  Reveal hidden contents

See the death of

  Reveal hidden contents

Hodor episode.

Where D&D completely contradict themselves saying how they were "trying to get as much out of GRRM as possible and that was one thing he did share. 

 

The stupidity of this post....it's over 9000. 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

5 hours ago, T and A said:

The stupidity of this post....it's over 9000. 

To give stupidity a number equivalent is stupidity.

What's stupid about it? Oh I know you believe that the show and the books are going to end up the same. And because you believe it it must be true. 

 

[T and A]

10 hours ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

To give stupidity a number equivalent is stupidity.

What's stupid about it? Oh I know you believe that the show and the books are going to end up the same. And because you believe it it must be true. 

 

Believing that the show and the books are gonna end the same, is indeed just believing which can't be proven until the last book comes out. 

BUT, believing that HBO has paid GRRM millions of dollars, and started a project that lasts for years, without knowing the exact outcome and without being in interaction with him all the time, is the stupidity I was talking about. He has signed a contract and is in charge for it. HBO is a proffesional big corporation that does not make such mistakes as to start a show based on the books without knowing what is going to happen. What if he (God forbidden) dies in the meantime? 

As for the number of stupidity: it was a refernece to Dragonball Z :).

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

2 hours ago, T and A said:

Believing that the show and the books are gonna end the same, is indeed just believing which can't be proven until the last book comes out. 

BUT, believing that HBO has paid GRRM millions of dollars, and started a project that lasts for years, without knowing the exact outcome and without being in interaction with him all the time, is the stupidity I was talking about. He has signed a contract and is in charge for it. HBO is a proffesional big corporation that does not make such mistakes as to start a show based on the books without knowing what is going to happen. What if he (God forbidden) dies in the meantime? 

As for the number of stupidity: it was a refernece to Dragonball Z :).

Out of all the Anime references you use the one I have not seen. Ha! on me.

Listen, this is a complicated issue where neither side is going to win the other over. Having said that, I'll only expand on my OP starting off with a point you made. Hbo typically buys two seasons at a time. They are a money making machine yes but have you worked for a money making machine? What's ironic about them is they don't care about the cogs that make up the machine. Don't believe fine, at least watch the documentary about the making of that superman movie that never came to be. (God that sounds so stupid, I just don't know the name of the movie I think death of superman. I feel like that's right as a reference to the comics) that movie shows you nearly all the things that could go wrong with an investment. And besides if they lose money they  just write it off as a loss and the tax payer picks up the check. You know these machines rule of thumb? Privatize gains socialize losses. Besides these machines arnt writers. They know what sells and they now how to sell it. Harry Potter movies anyone?

Now, D&D said for years that they know everything; even GRRM said it until the end of season 3. Then you could see the subtle changes in both parties. GRRM even goes on his blog and says both show and books are their own different monsters. If you watched the commentary of the Episode that I mentioned above David says "when we got with George" (he's talking about the hotel 4 hour meeting) "we tried" (tried is the keyword here it's a slip up because if you look at them they are tired, exhausted this was definitely a long day for them when they shot this commentary. Or they shot up a bunch of dope but I highly highly doubt that. Let's not forget GoTs has signed their tickets these men now are golden gooses in the machine's eyes, that's how it works in Hollywood) "to get him to tell us as much as possible and this was one thing he did share" (If you think about it that is an awkward wording if they already knew and the use of the word one.)

Well anyway as I said we won't win each other over so I don't want to keep going on why I feel they wont be the same and I know that this makes this one thing I pointed out arbitrary. 

[T and A]

1 hour ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Out of all the Anime references you use the one I have not seen. Ha! on me.

Listen, this is a complicated issue where neither side is going to win the other over. Having said that, I'll only expand on my OP starting off with a point you made. Hbo typically buys two seasons at a time. They are a money making machine yes but have you worked for a money making machine? What's ironic about them is they don't care about the cogs that make up the machine. Don't believe fine, at least watch the documentary about the making of that superman movie that never came to be. (God that sounds so stupid, I just don't know the name of the movie I think death of superman. I feel like that's right as a reference to the comics) that movie shows you nearly all the things that could go wrong with an investment. And besides if they lose money they  just write it off as a loss and the tax payer picks up the check. You know these machines rule of thumb? Privatize gains socialize losses. Besides these machines arnt writers. They know what sells and they now how to sell it. Harry Potter movies anyone?

Now, D&D said for years that they know everything; even GRRM said it until the end of season 3. Then you could see the subtle changes in both parties. GRRM even goes on his blog and says both show and books are their own different monsters. If you watched the commentary of the Episode that I mentioned above David says "when we got with George" (he's talking about the hotel 4 hour meeting) "we tried" (tried is the keyword here it's a slip up because if you look at them they are tired, exhausted this was definitely a long day for them when they shot this commentary. Or they shot up a bunch of dope but I highly highly doubt that. Let's not forget GoTs has signed their tickets these men now are golden gooses in the machine's eyes, that's how it works in Hollywood) "to get him to tell us as much as possible and this was one thing he did share" (If you think about it that is an awkward wording if they already knew and the use of the word one.)

Well anyway as I said we won't win each other over so I don't want to keep going on why I feel they wont be the same and I know that this makes this one thing I pointed out arbitrary. 

Dragon Ball Z is the bummer :D.

OK. I get your point. And I totally agree with you on basically everything you said. The show could of course take a totaly different aproach and even (although I don't believe it for a second) come to a total different conclusion. That being said, it still would be the decision of the showrunners. That does not mean that they don't know where the story will go. The diferentiation after season 3 from the books are rather logical and were also described by David Benioff: Book 4 and 5 are not a very good material to visualise on TV. Book 4 for example concentrates on rather minor characters, without the usual suspects. While for some (excluding me) it is fun to read, it is not fun to watch. It gets really boring on TV. The regular (non book reading) viewer does not want to watch that. Some friends of mine who have never read the books but love the show, say that they hate it when the show concentrates on Briene, the hound etc. They want Dany, Jon, and they want Tyrion, Tyrion, Tyrion :DD. So I fully understand the decisions that were made after Season 3 and 4. But that does not mean that the Showrunners are not in contact with GRRM. They still know whats about to happen. They said last year, that they could write the last episode of the story right now if the want to. 

Long story short, your and mine opinion are not that apart as you might think.  We just meant different things. 

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

FWIW (not much), I think some of the hold up may be GRRM trying to make the novels diverge even more from the show now that the show is ahead. We all know the 'plot twist to a major character that they can't do on the show' George referenced. I think he's wanting to make more extensive changes. How far will he go? Minor plots? Some characters surviving that did not? Vice-versa? Major plot changes? Who knows. Perhaps he won't change much. I do think he is coming to the realization that he is not married to his previous outline or the shows resolution of certain plotlines.

 

[The Egg]

On 2/3/2017 at 8:16 PM, T and A said:

Dragon Ball Z is the bummer :D.

OK. I get your point. And I totally agree with you on basically everything you said. The show could of course take a totaly different aproach and even (although I don't believe it for a second) come to a total different conclusion. That being said, it still would be the decision of the showrunners. That does not mean that they don't know where the story will go. The diferentiation after season 3 from the books are rather logical and were also described by David Benioff: Book 4 and 5 are not a very good material to visualise on TV. Book 4 for example concentrates on rather minor characters, without the usual suspects. While for some (excluding me) it is fun to read, it is not fun to watch. It gets really boring on TV. The regular (non book reading) viewer does not want to watch that. Some friends of mine who have never read the books but love the show, say that they hate it when the show concentrates on Briene, the hound etc. They want Dany, Jon, and they want Tyrion, Tyrion, Tyrion :DD. So I fully understand the decisions that were made after Season 3 and 4. But that does not mean that the Showrunners are not in contact with GRRM. They still know whats about to happen. They said last year, that they could write the last episode of the story right now if the want to. 

Long story short, your and mine opinion are not that apart as you might think.  We just meant different things. 

Honestly, do you really think GRRM knows how the story ends? I mean, he started writing A Game of Thrones with Jaime as The Very Bad Guy (we know this from the "plot" he gave himself, sure, but he's exactly that character at the beginning of AGOT, so he might very well have changed his mind while he was already quite far with writing) and we end up with him being the savior of King's Landing and one of the wisest people in Westeros just three or four years later. So how can you be sure that the ending he thought of in 2011 is the same he's thinking of now and the same he'll get to at the end of A Dream of Spring?
Sure, HBO has kept contact with him as far as they could and they still do, and for sure they asked as many details as possible, but... it's a TV series, and they didn't even know at the beginning if they were going to have two seasons, let alone get to the end of seven books. Actually, until the fourth season, they always renewed the series one year after the other, halfway through the previous one, so how to deal with the story was totally D&D business, so I don't think HBO really cared about the story ending. As you said, they knew they would've to make major changes to adapt the story, and that applies to the first five books already, without taking into consideration any not yet published book, so even if they end up differently (and again, when they signed the contract they didn't know if they were going to reach the end) I don't HBO could care less, especially now that the show will end years before the books, and so the comparison will only be possible half a decade later. And for sure they have no right nor possibility to force Martin to stick to the show ending if he wants to change it in the books.