Sybell Westerling – What was the “arrangement”?

[cgrav]

It sounds like Sybell found herself in a position to bargain: she could have been brought into the royal fold of the Starks, but being a Lannister banner family, she knew she could name her price from Tywin. If her sons died at the Red Wedding, that's just what she got for thinking she could force Tywin to pay for her loyalty. Plus Castamere is kind of a tainted promotion. Given how reluctant he is to give rewards even to his own children, he must have been quite begrudged to give a major lordship to a family essentially putting their loyalty up for sale.

[Seams]

I think we have to keep in mind that Sybell Westerling is the granddaughter of Maggie the Frog. People have mentioned the possible use of a  love potion already, but Maggie was also a fortune teller.

I agree that Sybell was ambitious for social standing and titles and lands, and this was her motive to work with Tywin. I think the Lannisters had worked with this Spicer family for generations, however, so Sybell probably had an eye out for ways to serve Tywin whenever the chance arose.

Tywin may be wrong about "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son". Most of the references to Robb and certainly the majority of his "on stage" scenes portray him as Catelyn's son. At the end of AGoT, Catelyn says she has to remind herself that he is Ned's son as well as hers. And the symbolism around Robb and Jeyne points to a Jenny of Oldstones role for Jeyne. (There is also a Jenny of Oldstones and Lord of Dragonflies flashback scene for Catelyn and Petyr Baelish, which is most intriguing.) We don't know much about the aftermath of Jenny and Duncan's tragic love story, but it wouldn't surprise me if Jenny went mad with grief. Or if she sought revenge against those who wronged Duncan? It would not surprise me at all if Jeyne is the "younger queen" who will take everything that matters to Cersei. Having Maggie the Frog's great-granddaughter fulfill the prophecy that Maggie made would be a perfect GRRM closing of a literary loop.

I think Tywin may have been playing fast and loose with the old "Lannisters always pay their debts" motto, too. Apparently he promised good matches for Sybell's children. When it was time to deliver, the Lannisters offer a bastard daughter of a younger son. As someone pointed out, that daughter may have already been offered as a match for the Freys. If these deals start to fall through or to conflict with other deals, some of these allies might feel justified in backing off from the Lannisters.

It still intrigues me that Tywin was the only person to object to the match between his sister, Genna, and Emmon Frey yet Lord Walder Frey never exacted revenge for the very public insult Tywin made toward the Frey family honor. If Walder finds out that Tywin was behind the plot to seduce Robb Stark, creating a further insult to the Freys and frustrating Walder's ambitions, I don't see how the Frey-Lannister alliance can remain strong. Maybe allowing Walder to exact revenge on the Starks and giving Riverrun to Emmon were big enough consolation prizes. But it seems like Walder would hold Tywin responsible for some major slights, and I doubt he would entirely forget them.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

34 minutes ago, Seams said:

It still intrigues me that Tywin was the only person to object to the match between his sister, Genna, and Emmon Frey yet Lord Walder Frey never exacted revenge for the very public insult Tywin made toward the Frey family honor. If Walder finds out that Tywin was behind the plot to seduce Robb Stark, creating a further insult to the Freys and frustrating Walder's ambitions, I don't see how the Frey-Lannister alliance can remain strong. Maybe allowing Walder to exact revenge on the Starks and giving Riverrun to Emmon were big enough consolation prizes. But it seems like Walder would hold Tywin responsible for some major slights, and I doubt he would entirely forget them.

I don't think Walder Frey is stupid enough to abandon a very profitable alliance with the Lannisters to pursue a feud with them over that. If it got to the point that the Freys would be better served by switching sides and supporting someone else, maybe. I always get the impression that the "slights" Frey bangs on about are mostly self-justification for his latest act of betrayal. Frey nurses grudges against literally every other lord, so that whichever way he zigs or zags he can justify it by dredging up some long forgotten insult.