The Tower of Joy Discussion

[RedPriest]

The Tower of Joy is one of the most interesting events to have happened in asoiaf; without Rhaegar and Lyanna, it's Robert's Rebellion would never have happened, and neither would the events in asoiaf. But there's so much mystery around it! What exactly was the ToJ? There are lots of theories and speculations about this, and it's one of the few topics raised in A Game of Thrones that hasn't been cleared up by now. Some questions are;

• Did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna or did she go of her own will?
• Did Rhaegar kidnap her at all? 
• how did she get there?
• What was the promise Lyanna made Ned?
• How did Ned know where to go?
• Why was nearly half the Kingsguard guarding it?
• What happened at the ToJ?
• Why was she there in the first place?
• What implication does this have on the story?
• What did Lyanna die of?

I think personally that the whole thing is somewhat sketchy, and the description so far hides something which'll have an effect on the series, but i'm not sure what it is. Thoughts on any of this?

[purple-eyes]

lyanna kidnaped rhaegar ( and defeated two KG) 

rhaegar was forced to leave by lyanna the mystery knight at swordpoint. 

lyanna is a good rider so she rode to TOJ. 

"ned, promise me you will never tell people i kidnapped (and raped) a married man" 

rhaegar managed to send secret message to KL so that white bull can come to rescue him. whitebull was also defeated by lyanna but rhaegar escaped. so how white-bull knew where rhaegar is, then how ned knew it. 

three KG were defeated by lyanna so they had to obey her (they spoke vow, like jaime)

lyanna forced rhaegar to have sex with her

she likes handsome man and she was never shy to claim what she wants. (like brandon)

lyanna accidentally got pregnant ( she and kg are not good at making moontea) and birthed jon snow. 

she died of childbirth (rhaegar's revenge!) 

 

[WalkinDude]

Hmm, you raise some really good questions, OP.  I never thought about any of these before.  What if the narrative that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna was all a lie!  What if Rhaegar ordered the Kingsguard to stay with her because she was carrying his child!  No one has ever mentioned this before, but what if the promise was for Ned to raise Rhaegar and Lyanna's child as his own?  

I bet Catelyn would have been pissed if Ned brought another child back to Winterfell after his bastard he had with Wylla.  The baby probably died being transported on horseback from Dorne to Winterfell, but what if Ned hid the baby somewhere?  Maybe with his friend Tywin.  Could be that Tyrion is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar!

[RedPriest]

Well, Tyrion is a far bit older than Robert's Rebellion, so he's an unlikely candidate, but it is one of the major theories surronding ned's promise to lyanna, that Jon Snow was the actual child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, so there would only be one bastard in the first place. I think that's unlikely, because Jon is in the Night's Watch, so there isn't really any point in covering Lyanna's promise up. The Lyanna kidnapped Rhaegar theory is interesting. However, it's strange that the kingsguard remained after Rhaegar left. Also there are couple of other interesting points;

In chapter 4, ned says 'they found him holding lyanna's body' yet apparently Howland Reed was the only other survivor of the Raid on the Tower of Joy

And this article of So Spake Martin:

 

January 02, 2002

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

Cheers, I really hope you will answer these questions for me, I'll not bother you again if you do, I promise hahaha.

I think this is really interesting.

 

[Dorian Martell]

On 7/26/2016 at 10:02 PM, RedPriest said:

The Tower of Joy is one of the most interesting events to have happened in asoiaf; without Rhaegar and Lyanna, it's Robert's Rebellion would never have happened, and neither would the events in asoiaf. But there's so much mystery around it! What exactly was the ToJ? There are lots of theories and speculations about this, and it's one of the few topics raised in A Game of Thrones that hasn't been cleared up by now. Some questions are;

• Did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna or did she go of her own will?
• Did Rhaegar kidnap her at all? 
• how did she get there?
• What was the promise Lyanna made Ned?
• How did Ned know where to go?
• Why was nearly half the Kingsguard guarding it?
• What happened at the ToJ?
• Why was she there in the first place?
• What implication does this have on the story?
• What did Lyanna die of?

I think personally that the whole thing is somewhat sketchy, and the description so far hides something which'll have an effect on the series, but i'm not sure what it is. Thoughts on any of this?

Well, there is always the search function in the forum to see if someone has postes somethiogn about that previously............
OK who am I kidding. Nobody searches here. Purple-Eyes sums up the salient points here.

On 7/26/2016 at 10:35 PM, purple-eyes said:

lyanna kidnaped rhaegar ( and defeated two KG) 

rhaegar was forced to leave by lyanna the mystery knight at swordpoint. 

lyanna is a good rider so she rode to TOJ. 

"ned, promise me you will never tell people i kidnapped (and raped) a married man" 

rhaegar managed to send secret message to KL so that white bull can come to rescue him. whitebull was also defeated by lyanna but rhaegar escaped. so how white-bull knew where rhaegar is, then how ned knew it. 

three KG were defeated by lyanna so they had to obey her (they spoke vow, like jaime)

lyanna forced rhaegar to have sex with her

she likes handsome man and she was never shy to claim what she wants. (like brandon)

lyanna accidentally got pregnant ( she and kg are not good at making moontea) and birthed jon snow. 

she died of childbirth (rhaegar's revenge!) 

 

well done sir. Concise and to the point 

[BricksAndSparrows]

On 7/27/2016 at 1:35 AM, purple-eyes said:

lyanna kidnaped rhaegar ( and defeated two KG) 

rhaegar was forced to leave by lyanna the mystery knight at swordpoint. 

lyanna is a good rider so she rode to TOJ. 

"ned, promise me you will never tell people i kidnapped (and raped) a married man" 

rhaegar managed to send secret message to KL so that white bull can come to rescue him. whitebull was also defeated by lyanna but rhaegar escaped. so how white-bull knew where rhaegar is, then how ned knew it. 

three KG were defeated by lyanna so they had to obey her (they spoke vow, like jaime)

lyanna forced rhaegar to have sex with her

she likes handsome man and she was never shy to claim what she wants. (like brandon)

lyanna accidentally got pregnant ( she and kg are not good at making moontea) and birthed jon snow. 

she died of childbirth (rhaegar's revenge!) 

 

Please tell me there are 6,156 MORE posts like this.

 

I gotta say, that post in red, up above... It relies on the assumption that the KG were sure Ned wouldn't hurt the child. The KG would have EVERY reason to suspect that Ned would not protect the child. And even if they trusted him, they had orders, which we can reasonably assume did NOT include handing the child over to the rebellion.

[RedPriest]

You have a point, BricksandSparrows. But i think someone else was in that tower. After all, if their job was to protect Lyanna and/or her child, they would have hardly stood around outside, or at least not all of them while she was dying inside. There are a few explanations for this (she was injured in the fight, she was dying when she came to the ToJ, etc.), but with the evidence i've already given, i think that there was somebody else helping her, and the KG knew that person is the best. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I genuinely can't decide if this entire topic is just a piss take, or if some posts are in fact serious. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I genuinely can't decide if this entire topic is just a piss take, or if some posts are in fact serious. 

The damage is done here, view it all as a piss take and let it drift downward into obscurity. 

[RedPriest]

 

19 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The damage is done here, view it all as a piss take and let it drift downward into obscurity. 

'Groan'. A couple of the earlier posts were pretty dumb, but on the whole, it hasn't been too bad.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

20 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The damage is done here, view it all as a piss take and let it drift downward into obscurity. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 27/7/2016 at 8:35 AM, purple-eyes said:

lyanna kidnaped rhaegar ( and defeated two KG) 

rhaegar was forced to leave by lyanna the mystery knight at swordpoint. 

lyanna is a good rider so she rode to TOJ. 

"ned, promise me you will never tell people i kidnapped (and raped) a married man" 

rhaegar managed to send secret message to KL so that white bull can come to rescue him. whitebull was also defeated by lyanna but rhaegar escaped. so how white-bull knew where rhaegar is, then how ned knew it. 

three KG were defeated by lyanna so they had to obey her (they spoke vow, like jaime)

lyanna forced rhaegar to have sex with her

she likes handsome man and she was never shy to claim what she wants. (like brandon)

lyanna accidentally got pregnant ( she and kg are not good at making moontea) and birthed jon snow. 

she died of childbirth (rhaegar's revenge!) 

 That is great!

[Clegane'sPup]

6 hours ago, RedPriest said:

 

'Groan'. A couple of the earlier posts were pretty dumb, but on the whole, it hasn't been too bad.

 

There’s nothing wrong with your OP. The material has been hashed and rehashed so many times. I think someone up above suggested that you use a search to find answers to your questions.

The questions you asked have not actually been answered by the author. There are many threads about it though. Maybe someone will provide you with a few links.

Assuming you are relatively new, yes the whole thing seems a bit sketchy. Hell, I don’t have a firm grasp on it either.

It’s all mixed together with Lyanna being (or not) the Knight of the Laughing Tree at a tourney held at Harrenhal. There are mixed opinions as to whether Lyanna was abducted or absconded with Rhaegar. Then there are things like how did Brandon receive word about Lyanna being missing. How did Eddard know to go to the tower of joy, etc etc.

There are usually some interesting conversations in the L+R=J penned threads. I may have transposed those letters, it may be R+L=J.

[RedPriest]

As far as the Knight of the Laughing Tree goes, one of the main theories is that it was Lyanna, yes but even though it was an eventful tourney, this particular incident doesn't really have an impact on the ToJ. 

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, RedPriest said:

As far as the Knight of the Laughing Tree goes, one of the main theories is that it was Lyanna, yes but even though it was an eventful tourney, this particular incident doesn't really have an impact on the ToJ. 

I'm trying to give you the benefit of doubt and play nice. So here goes.

Let me preface it this way. Yes, the tourney is important as to who or what and why the KG are at the ToJ. Some posters know this material forward & backward. I do not. It depends on what an individual reader thinks happened.

There is a story that has to be pieced together. In my simplistic view it goes something like this staring with Rhaegar would disappear from time to time, supposedly to his tower of joy.

There was this tourney and Rhaegar presents Lyanna with a crown of blue roses. Some posters believe there was some behind the scenes politicking going on. Others think Rhaegar was in awe of this northern girl.

Lyanna goes missing somewhere around Harrenhal. Brandon receives word. Brandon goes to KL demanding Rhaegar.  Rhaegar is not there. Is it possible Rheagar is on his way with Lyanna to his tower of joy? The Starks & companions get killed. King sends for Eddard and Robert’s heads. Rebellion breaks out.

The SoS Jaime V chapter that some interesting information.

and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid <snip> Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army.

Rhaegar has returned from the south. Does that imply Rhaegar had been in Dorne at the ToJ?

Jaime VI while dreaming, I think, gives me the names of the KG. He dreams of five KG yet there are six. Who is missing from Jaime’s dream? Selmy. Does it matter I doubt it.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

In FfC Jaime I, Jaime has a memory about Rhaegar going off to battle. Jaime had to stay with the king while the others ride off with Rhaegar to battle.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

I know Selmy was wounded at the Trident and Darry & Martell died at the Trident. So, is it possible that the day Rhaegar left KL he commanded Hightower, Dayne & Whent to go south to Rhaeger’s tower of joy to protect Lyanna until Rhaegar could return there?

The topic you picked is not an easy one. The ToJ is mixed in with the Harrenhal tourney, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robert’s Rebellion and politics.

The ToJ is not a standalone story. It is woven into the books and into many of the theory’s that have been discussed on the boards for many years.

Hence I get to Eddard’s famous dream.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

[No One of Importance]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/search/&q="tower+of+joy"&sortby=relevancy

You'll find lots and lots (70 pages of threads) of discussion about the ToJ, with proposed answers to your questions in most of them.

 

[YOVMO]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 1:35 AM, purple-eyes said:

lyanna kidnaped rhaegar ( and defeated two KG) 

rhaegar was forced to leave by lyanna the mystery knight at swordpoint. 

lyanna is a good rider so she rode to TOJ. 

"ned, promise me you will never tell people i kidnapped (and raped) a married man" 

rhaegar managed to send secret message to KL so that white bull can come to rescue him. whitebull was also defeated by lyanna but rhaegar escaped. so how white-bull knew where rhaegar is, then how ned knew it. 

three KG were defeated by lyanna so they had to obey her (they spoke vow, like jaime)

lyanna forced rhaegar to have sex with her

she likes handsome man and she was never shy to claim what she wants. (like brandon)

lyanna accidentally got pregnant ( she and kg are not good at making moontea) and birthed jon snow. 

she died of childbirth (rhaegar's revenge!) 

 

You forgot that after dying Lyanna single handedly pulled down the Tower of Joy.

[Dorian Martell]

On 7/30/2016 at 5:51 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

The damage is done here, view it all as a piss take and let it drift downward into obscurity. 

If you apply this to the whole forum then yes. Otherwise, this thread is par for the course 

[Clegane'sPup]

21 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

You forgot that after dying Lyanna single handedly pulled down the Tower of Joy.

Argh, must you feed purple eyes.

[YOVMO]

8 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Argh, must you feed purple eyes.

Purple eyes are hungry eyes.

 

"I feel the magic between you and I" Rhaegar to Lyanna (presumably)