Heresy 190

[Black Crow]

42 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Were the ancestors of all the skinchangers within the wildling people also imprinted in this way? The genetics are there, but it's a shared gene pool, unless all the wildlings are related to Starks.

Probably, but stronger in some than in others. It may depend on how frequently it has happened over the centuries.

[Yield.]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Were the ancestors of all the skinchangers within the wildling people also imprinted in this way? The genetics are there, but it's a shared gene pool, unless all the wildlings are related to Starks.

I think it more likely that all First Men had the latent ability within them. Remember when the FM first arrived they chopped down the trees because they believe the trees were watching them. Additionally, it can't be a Stark only trait because Brynden Rivers has no Stark blood at all and he's the current, and last greenseer.

We've discussed in the past that it was the introduction of the mother's genes into the Stark line that allowed the kids to hear and bond with the pups. I don't know how much significance to put on the blood in this case because the only other example of a skinchanger south of the Wall has Riverlands blood in him. As do the Stark kids.

[Melifeather]

The story of the Night's King points a finger at the lovely pale "Other" as a possibility. He gave her his seed and perhaps created the magical line. Durran too married Elenei who took mortal form in order to wed him. In both stories it's the females that are connected to magic.

[Black Crow]

33 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The story of the Night's King points a finger at the lovely pale "Other" as a possibility. He gave her his seed and perhaps created the magical line. Durran too married Elenei who took mortal form in order to wed him. In both stories it's the females that are connected to magic.

Nah, any possible offspring of the Nights King are outside the Winterfell line.

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Nah, any possible offspring of the Nights King are outside the Winterfell line.

LOL! Give us a clue then.... a Bolton? a Woodfoot? , an Umber, Flint or Norrey?

[Brad Stark]

53 minutes ago, Yield. said:

I think it more likely that all First Men had the latent ability within them. Remember when the FM first arrived they chopped down the trees because they believe the trees were watching them. Additionally, it can't be a Stark only trait because Brynden Rivers has no Stark blood at all and he's the current, and last greenseer.

We've discussed in the past that it was the introduction of the mother's genes into the Stark line that allowed the kids to hear and bond with the pups. I don't know how much significance to put on the blood in this case because the only other example of a skinchanger south of the Wall has Riverlands blood in him. As do the Stark kids.

Are you sure the Blackwoods have no Stark blood?  Even going back a thousand years?

It has been discussed before that the gift is probably inherited from the mother, and all the Starks have the same mother.  This could explain why they all have it, and Ned does not.  However Jon doesn't fit.  No one suspects Catyln is Jon's mother, there isn't enough tinfoil for that hat.

I still suspect an agreement in place, where the Children send each son of a Stark Lord a direwolf.  The question then is why did they stop.

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Are you sure the Blackwoods have no Stark blood?  Even going back a thousand years?

It has been discussed before that the gift is probably inherited from the mother, and all the Starks have the same mother.  This could explain why they all have it, and Ned does not.  However Jon doesn't fit.  No one suspects Catyln is Jon's mother, there isn't enough tinfoil for that hat.

I still suspect an agreement in place, where the Children send each son of a Stark Lord a direwolf.  The question then is why did they stop.

I imagine that the Blackwoods are the descendants of the survivors of the Warg Kings. They claim to have ruled the Wolfwood in ancient times.

So it might be a case of the Stark having inherited Blackwood blood multiple times through a maternal line. It might be the case that the warg blood was reinvigorated when Black Aly married Cregan.

Edit: Ignore the Black Aly part; the current Starks are not descended from her.

[Yield.]

2 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Are you sure the Blackwoods have no Stark blood?  Even going back a thousand years?

Well that is what I said earlier to Feather, I think all, or some, the First Men had the latent ability to skinchange. They cut down the trees because they felt the trees watching them. This is what angered the Children. How can the First Men feel the trees watching them is there was not a latent ability already present within them? Possibly they never needed it in Essos, but once confronted with the magic of the Children, they realised they had it.

6 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

However Jon doesn't fit.  No one suspects Catyln is Jon's mother, there isn't enough tinfoil for that hat.

Come now! Catelyn as Jon's mother?  

Seriously, if Jon's father had FM blood in him too, then there is no problem with him having the ability. Even if RLJ, then we also know there is some latent ability within the Targs to tame their dragons without the uses of whips or spells, unique to them. Sounds a lot like a minor form of skinchanging to me.

11 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I still suspect an agreement in place, where the Children send each son of a Stark Lord a direwolf.  The question then is why did they stop.

I've not heard that one before. Can you expand on it please.

[Yield.]

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Nah, any possible offspring of the Nights King are outside the Winterfell line.

You sure about that?

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

The Night's King may not have ruled Winterfell, but any offspring would be Starks.

[Lord Wraith]

9 hours ago, Tucu said:

All probably consequences of Queen Alyssane taking the lands of the New Gift from northern lords and giving it to the NW, gifting the new Deep Lake castle forcing the closure of the Nightfort and the abolishment of first night rights. The New Gift got depopulated, there were less bastards available to sacrifice to the Old Gods and the Black Gate was forgotten.

I have been thinking something similar to this.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Yield. said:

You sure about that?

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

The Night's King may not have ruled Winterfell, but any offspring would be Starks.

You bet your sweet bippy he was! Thanks for covering my backside!

[Dornish Neck Tie]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Sounds ...intriguing

Anything in particular upsetting people?

I think it was the idea that the Stark kids might not be so special after all. Which would not necessarily be true, of course; the gods specifically chose the Stark children to receive the gifts.

[Tatsuwa]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL! Give us a clue then.... a Bolton? a Woodfoot? , an Umber, Flint or Norrey?

Of all the notable houses of the North, the Boltons have never been mentioned
in marriages with Starks.They have been portrayed as enemy rivals to house
Stark for thousands of years.
Consider Roose Boltons description : pallid complexion, eyes which are as pale
and strange as two white moons.
Also consider his habit of leeching "the bad blood" out, that seems almost an
obsession.

[wolfmaid7]

On 8/2/2016 at 1:03 PM, Black Crow said:

I don't have a problem with that, but I do think allowance has to be made for the direwolves themselves. I don't remotely see it as a case of any of the children of Winterfell warging say mastiffs. The direwolves were sent to them, one direwolf for each of the children and it was they who initiated the warg bond, and when its done while unconscious we have to allow for the possibility that the wolf has opened the door and the wolf who is warging the child rather than the other way around - hence John's beserk rages which have nothing to do with "waking the dragon" and everything to do with him being warged by Ghost.

True,true.

On 8/2/2016 at 1:15 PM, Yield. said:

You are discounting Arya in this one. She too can enter a cat at will. Her gifts are as advanced as Bran's, the only difference is that Arya is doing all this without guidance. She is not yet aware she can reach for Nymeria while she is awake.  And Arya is not a greenseer that we know of.

 

  The direwolves are not given enough credit in all this. Ghost in particular is discounted as having any ability beyond what the other wolves have. But as you say we've got that time with Iron Emmet getting beat up while Jon is not conscious of doing it. I think it's also important to remember that this happens after the WeirBran dream where Ghost gets his forehead touched. Who knows what that touch from a weirwood did to Ghost and his abilities.

True,true.

On 8/2/2016 at 2:26 PM, Feather Crystal said:

What I wanted to discuss was Jon's sense of Ghost and why he didn't sense him sometimes. I would think that it would be really annoying to constantly sense what a direwolf is thinking and doing, so I don't think they always know what they're up to unless they're in close proximity and have a conscious thought that brings them to mind. No special effort by the direwolf required.

I think Jon would always have a sense of Ghost and vice versa...A sense behind the eyes so to speak even if its not defined.But i think on the occassion where Jon couldn't sense Ghost it had to do with Ghost interpreting what Jon said.As i mentioned before,i give the DW alot more credit than most because i think those buggers are the real masters. 

“I will meet you again at Castle Black, but you have to get there by yourself. We must each hunt alone for a time. Alone.” The direwolf twisted free of Jon’s grasp, his ears pricked up. And suddenly he was bounding away ."

I think Ghost cut himself off from Jon.....Alone meant alone.

On 8/3/2016 at 6:32 AM, Black Crow said:

This is something which we've discussed way back and also meshes in to what I suggested in the last thread about Old Nan actually being right when she speaks of cold dead things hating all life; but is actually speaking about the wights who hate the living precisely because they are the dead.

 

I don't know about this.It sounds beautiful,but i still think their was craftiness going on there.They had a purpose because they were being driven to accomplish that purpose which they did.Get Wights on the Wall.Had Jon and Ghost not intervened the entire watch might have been turned by morning.A secondary purpose i'm postulating.

On 8/3/2016 at 10:36 AM, Black Crow said:

I think the interesting [and significant] bit there is the business of the soul seeking its other half, which goes with the business of part of the warg being in the wolf and part of the wolf in the warg. The question then arises as to whether its an equal partnership and if not which one is dominant. In Rickon's case its clearly Shaggydog.

Another firm belief of mine and we don't give these creatures nearly enough credit because i guess we see them as animals.I think the pull is on the part of the Direwolves.It is also one of the big difference i've noticed with V6.He knows and identify himself apart from his wolves.The Starks are identifying themselves "AS" their wolves.The separation isn't clear cut.They have to remin themselves that they are men and not wolves.Hell even when for instance Mel sees them in her flames the deviation between man and wolf is not so defined.

They can't stop the exacting of the bond on themselves by their wolves and that's dominance.The wolves are imposing their essence not the other way around.

On 8/3/2016 at 11:03 AM, LynnS said:

If it's the direwolf that initiates the contact; why doesn't Old Nan have all kinds of stories about it? The current generation can't be the only generation with wolf blood.  How long has it been since a direwolf has been seen south of the Wall?  Perhaps the Starks and the direwolves have been kept apart for a reason?   

She wouldn't wouldn't she as this is something very intimate and likely not talked about by those who were having this experiance.Jon is a perfect example.We get the intimacy because we are in his head and see his thoughts about how he feels about Ghost.It would take alot of trust to speak this out loud to another human being.Especially if you know they won't understand.Not to mention you are opening up yourself and the familiar to being killed by closed minded,superstitous people.

7 hours ago, Yield. said:

Well that is what I said earlier to Feather, I think all, or some, the First Men had the latent ability to skinchange. They cut down the trees because they felt the trees watching them. This is what angered the Children. How can the First Men feel the trees watching them is there was not a latent ability already present within them? Possibly they never needed it in Essos, but once confronted with the magic of the Children, they realised they had it.

 

Yep this is something i mentioned a while back when discussing a 'first contact and sympathetic human situation" and i still feverently believe that the First men,some of them anyway already had this ability when they came from Essos.One only has to look at what happened to Jon on the Skirling pass and superimpose that on the pass.Could you imagine the panic? All of a sudden some of your kin start speaking about trees,wolves and crows talking to them in their sleep.I would also imagine that they would think and look at this as an attack which ended with some of their people being "compromised."

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Tatsuwa said:

Of all the notable houses of the North, the Boltons have never been mentioned
in marriages with Starks.They have been portrayed as enemy rivals to house
Stark for thousands of years.
Consider Roose Boltons description : pallid complexion, eyes which are as pale
and strange as two white moons.
Also consider his habit of leeching "the bad blood" out, that seems almost an
obsession.

I was just teasing a little.  LOL!  But that doesn't account for bastards or wards.

[LynnS]

Going back to the premise that WeirBran couldn't connect with Jon from the Crypts at Winterfell; does the following remove the ambiguities?

1) I'm not afraid anymore.

Bran was never afraid of the Crypts at Winterfell or the darkness. He may have been afraid of what was going on outside the crypts but his fear at that time was more about his dreams.

In DwD Bran I starts out with Bran telling himself that he is almost a grown man and he must be brave. This goes back to GoT Bran I when he asks his father if a aman can be brave if he is afraid and Ned tells him; it's the only time a man can be brave. It's an admission to himself that he is afraid. He goes on to say that the whole party is more afraid than they ever were on the south side of the wall. By the time they arrive at the Greenseers Cave; they are weak, starving and hypothermic. Coldhands and Summer both sense the presence of the wights under the snow and this is another time that Hodor shows fear. Coldhands asks them if they can smell the cold and if they can they see anything. Then they are attacked and losing ground when Hodor begins to whimper and suddenly Bran finds himself inside Hodor in a beserker mode. This is the point where Bran conquers his fear.

DwD Bran II

"Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted ... until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

Bran backed away bleeding, and Meera Reed was there, driving her frog spear deep into the wight's back "Hodor," Bran roared again, waving her uphill. "Hodor, hodor." Jojen was twisting feebly where she'd laid him down, Bran went to him, dropped the longsword, gathered the boy into Hodor's arm, and lurched back to his feet. "HODOR", he bellowed.

Meera led the way back up the hill, jabbing at the wights when they came near. The things could not be hurt, but they were slow and clumsy. "Hodor", Hodor said with every step. "Hodor, hodor," He wondered what Meera would think if he should suddenly tell her that he loved her.

And then Leaf comes to their aid with fire.

2) I like it here - aDwD Bran III

Bran is quite comfortable in BR's cave with food and fire; his bed of moss and furs; and that he is not the crippled boy anymore.  He can come and go in Summer as he pleases and sometime as Hodor.  He is learning to use the Ravens and sometimes he just watches from above (using the moon's eye view).  He exults in this ability and wishes that he could show Rob that he could fly and thinks that his brothers and sisters could fly as well.


'Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said.  "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven ... but in those days, the birds would speak the words.  The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too.  He wished Robb were with them now.  I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe me, so I'd have to show him.  I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow.  We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

That was just another silly dream, though.  Some days Bran wondered if all of this wasn't just some dream.  Maybe he had fallen asleep out in the snows and dreamed himself a safe place.  You have to wake, he would tell himself, you have to wake right now, or you'll go dreaming into death.   Once or twice he pinched his arm with his fingers, really hard, but the only thing that did was make his arm hurt.  In the beginning he had tried to count the days by making note of when he woke and slept, but down here sleeping and waking had a way of melting into one another.  Dreams became lessons, lessons became dreams, things happened all at once or not at all.  Had he done that or only dreamed it?

So Bran takes the notion that he can teach his brothers and sisters how to fly but I still don't think this has happened yet.  I think in order for Bran to appear as WierBran he has to assume the identity of the tree and that hasn't occurred yet. Or it may be that he has he is on the cusp of these abilities since what follows is that he takes the paste.

3)  They can't see you, but you can see them is pretty obvious I think.  Since the next thing that happens to Jon is the that he sees things from above; the wildling encampment.

4)  The smell of death:  aGoT - Jon VII

This is a sensory perception that Ghost-Jon experiences; something that they have already experienced and recognize.  The wights are still shambling about the entrance to the BR's cave and the smell of the cold, the wretched stench of the wights and the smell of death was first encountered in aGoT when Jon and Ghost fight with Othor.

Jon had no time to be afraid.  He threw himself forward, shouting, bringing down the longsword with all his weight behind it.  Steel sheared through sleeve and skin and bone, yet the sound was wrong somehow.  The smell that engulfed him was so queer and cold he almost gagged.  He saw arm and hand on the floor, black fingers wriggling in a pool of moonlight.  Ghost wrenched free of the other hand and crept away, red tongue lolling from his mouth.

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation.  The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning.  Jon knew that face.  Othor, he thought, reeling back.  Gods, he's dead, he's dead.  I saw him dead.

I think this  is enough to say that the WierBran connection didn't originate from the Crypts of Winterfell but in BR's Cave and that Bran did reach out to Jon in his past and open his third eye.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 8/3/2016 at 1:03 PM, LynnS said:

If it's the direwolf that initiates the contact; why doesn't Old Nan have all kinds of stories about it? The current generation can't be the only generation with wolf blood.  How long has it been since a direwolf has been seen south of the Wall?  Perhaps the Starks and the direwolves have been kept apart for a reason?   

I have to say... Yep. The wolves and the Starks were seperated in a similar manner that the Targaryens and the dragons were seperated. Too much power in one family.(cough, cough)  The direwolves were seen two hundred years in the past which is also near the same amount of time the dragons dissapeared. A culling of the powerful magics which lead to the next cycle in the old powers rising once again. 

And Leaf was hoofin' it all over Westeros for the past two hundred years as the magic faded to almost nothing then she returned home because she was weary. 

Did she find the answers not in favor (too hot)or did she find them not at all (too cold)? Or did she find them just right? 

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, Tatsuwa said:

Of all the notable houses of the North, the Boltons have never been mentioned
in marriages with Starks.They have been portrayed as enemy rivals to house
Stark for thousands of years.
Consider Roose Boltons description : pallid complexion, eyes which are as pale
and strange as two white moons.
Also consider his habit of leeching "the bad blood" out, that seems almost an
obsession.

Its interesting to say the least. The Stark King defeated the Warg King and took his daughters to wife. Maybe this is when they first gained the power. Bolton's then flay the Starks trying to learn the secrets of Warging mayhaps? 

Still can't deny the fact that Roose certainly looks Otherish...

Preston Jacobs once theorized that Ramsay was receiving the some of the same visions as Bran and Jojen. Which explains his bizarre behavior by masquerading as Reek. Maybe he has a form of greensight? Or Bloodraven is simply using him to get Bran North?

[wolfmaid7]

1 minute ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

I have to say... Yep. The wolves and the Starks were seperated in a similar manner that the Targaryens and the dragons were seperated. Too much power in one family.(cough, cough)  The direwolves were seen two hundred years in the past which is also near the same amount of time the dragons dissapeared.

I agree with this but i think conceptually something else is at work.The Direwolves were hunted into extinction South of the Wall right? Why?Was it because people feared them on account of them being dangerous in general,or was it precision?

The Targs and their dragons is up for debate as well.Was it friction between the Targs that led to them going bye bye or did another hand play into this i.e. Maesters.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Did she find the answers not in favor (too hot)or did she find them not at all (too cold)? Or did she find them just right?

Apparently to learn the common tongue.  How did she manage to blend in?