Heresy 190

[Melifeather]

For the Starks that haven't learned how to open their third eye and enter their wolves on purpose, they only experience skinchanging in their sleep. When they are awake during the day they are sometimes made aware of their wolf during times of great emotion. If they become upset, their wolves can sense the emotion and they growl and then the Starks can feel the wolf's growling emotion within themselves. Or, when Ghost is hunting or salivating...for a wolf this would be another strong emotion...then Jon tasted the blood or saliva. There is a connection between them, but they aren't always aware of their wolves. It seems it takes a heightened emotion.

[Tucu]

The power of the wolfpack seems to be different from skinchanging and grant some access to the wiernet on its own.

-Arya hears Sansa's screams in a middle of a crowd

-Arya hear wolves in the forest and Harrenhal when no else does, even that distant lonely wolf that is further away than Nymeria's pack.

-The call from that distant lonely wolf makes Arya dizzy

-Ned talks to Arya through a weirwood

-Rickon senses Ned's death or his spirit coming back; so do Summer and Shaggydog

-Bran dreams about Robb's death

-The direwolves know what their siblings are doing across huge distances

-Arya connects to Nymeria in dreams across the Narrow Sea.

-Bran manages to contact Jon through the wiernet before any rituals to wed him to the trees.

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, Tucu said:

And one direwolf for each WW that attacked Waymar Royce

It can't be coincidental.  Rob is gone and Samwell dispatches one of the WW.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

We're told the spirit remains in the bones until cracked open...unless you are a warg/skiinchanger. Warg/skinchanger's spirits leave the body upon death, but to enter a host there would have to be a previous connection. Ned could have been carried by the cold wind, but Varamyr's description about "melting"...well, the distance seems too far. At the end of Dance were Ned's bones home yet?

I think think there is a connection to the wights and their bones.  Othor's arm wriggling around and remaining active until it rots ways away far in the South.  Wolf crunching a wight's bone and then it stops moving around.   It's the Varamyr chapter when his body dies and his spirit is released floating over the landscape; into the tree and then into the wolf that brings Ned to mind.  The Stark connection to Winterfell; Ned to the godswood tree there;  the crypts themselves; a strong enough connection to draw his spirit perhaps.  Or specifically, drawn by that particular tree?  Don't know.  If his bones were in the crypt; he might rest there with all the other Starks.  Perhaps this is another time when the connection to the direwolf is made by the godswood tree and Ned had more of the wolf blood than we know.  Perhaps it is Ned's drive to protect his children.  When Theon first takes Winterfell; Bran recalls the duty of the Starks to protect the weak and defenseless and that he has given his word to do so.  Who is more defenseless than a 4 year old boy?  If Bran the Builder built Winterfell itself; who knows why there must always be a Stark at Winterfell. is there magic to that place that binds the Starks to it?   The Winterfell tree is over 10,000 years old. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

-Bran manages to contact Jon through the wiernet before any rituals to wed him to the trees.

I still question what happened.  I've re-read  all the Bran chapters in aCoK where the crypts are involved and can find nothing relating to the smell of death or being afraid of the dark  Jojen questions Bran about his dreams and Bran becomes defensive and angry and doesn't want to tell Jojen.  Jojen asks him if he is afraid.  Bran eventually tells him that he has 3 kinds of dreams ; 

-wolf dreams of hunting squirrels - he's not afraid of those dreams

- crow dreams of falling - he doesn't say he's afraid of those dreams but they are recurring nightmares

- tree dreams  calling his name - these dreams frighten him the most

Jojen tells him about the third eye and that he doesn't know how to open it yet.  Bran says he's been trying but doesn't know how.  Jojen pokes him in the middle of the forhead and tells his you can't do it like this, that he has to find the third eye with his heart.    he also tells him that there are things to fear in dreams: the past, the future and the truth.

So the statement by weirBran to Jon at the Skirling Pass is not about being afraid of the dark since Bran was never afraid of the crypts.  He's afraid the tree. 

We learn that Bran finally does open his eye and that he can warg Summer at will.  But we are never told how or when he overcame his fear.  How he found the eye with his heart,  I think it's curious that he appears to Jon as a tree with a face when no real tree exists. I'm not sure how this is connecting using the wiernet. Or how he can then touch ghost on the third eye.  The heart tree at the center of the godswood has a face carved on it.  What's the connection? I suspect the smell of death has more to do with Bloodraven's cave and that Bran overcomes here fear of the truth, past and future there... but I'm still reading.

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I still question what happened.  I've re-read  all the Bran chapters in aCoK where the crypts are involved and can find nothing relating to the smell of death or being afraid of the dark  Jojen questions Bran about his dreams and Bran becomes defensive and angry and doesn't want to tell Jojen.  Jojen asks him if he is afraid.  Bran eventually tells him that he has 3 kinds of dreams ; 

-wolf dreams of hunting squirrels - he's not afraid of those dreams

- crow dreams of falling - he doesn't say he's afraid of those dreams but they are recurring nightmares

- tree dreams  calling his name - these dreams frighten him the most

Jojen tells him about the third eye and that he doesn't know how to open it yet.  Bran says he's been trying but doesn't know how.  Jojen pokes him in the middle of the forhead and tells his you can't do it like this, that he has to find the third eye with his heart.    he also tells him that there are things to fear in dreams: the past, the future and the truth.

So the statement by weirBran to Jon at the Skirling Pass is not about being afraid of the dark since Bran was never afraid of the crypts.  He's afraid the tree. 

We learn that Bran finally does open his eye and that he can warg Summer at will.  But we are never told how or when he overcame his fear.  How he found the eye with his heart,  I think it's curious that he appears to Jon as a tree with a face when no real tree exists. I'm not sure how this is connecting using the wiernet. Or how he can then touch ghost on the third eye.  The heart tree at the center of the godswood has a face carved on it.  What's the connection? I suspect the smell of death has more to do with Bloodraven's cave and that Bran overcomes here fear of the truth, past and future there... but I'm still reading.

Tree-Bran never tells Jon/Ghost that he is or was afraid of the dark or a tree, he tells Jon not to be afraid of what he is smelling. The relevant quote is:

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

Later in the crypt Bran reflects:

Bran had told himself a hundred times how much he hated hiding down here in the dark, how much he wanted to see the sun again, to ride his horse through wind and rain. But now that the moment was upon him, he was afraid. He'd felt safe in the darkness; when you could not even find your own hand in front of your face, it was easy to believe that no enemies could ever find you either

So this is consistent between Bran in the crypt and Tree-Bran in the dream: he felt safe in the darkness because the enemies could not see him. The smell of earth, stone and death is probably valid for both the crypts and BR's cave.

The only part of that dream that is out of place is Bran ability to access the weirnet (or to appear as a weirwood in a dream). I am open to the possiblity of this being explained by out-of-time-Bran or latent greenseer powers or the power of the wolf pack.

[Black Crow]

I think the short answer to some of these questions is that they are communicating through the direwolves rather than through the trees.

As to Varamyr and Borroq recognising Jon as a warg, given that there is no outward mark of any kind, like say an eye tattooed on the forehead I'd suspect its not they themselves who recognise it but the beasts within recognising each other.

[LynnS]

I like it in the dark is different from saying that he feels safe in the dark.  I think there are stages to Bran's development and his fear of the tree dreams is relevant.  His deepest fear has more to do with what Jojen describes as the past, future and the truth than what he will find when he leaves the crypts.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think think there is a connection to the wights and their bones.  Othor's arm wriggling around and remaining active until it rots ways away far in the South.  Wolf crunching a wight's bone and then it stops moving around.   

This is something which we've discussed way back and also meshes in to what I suggested in the last thread about Old Nan actually being right when she speaks of cold dead things hating all life; but is actually speaking about the wights who hate the living precisely because they are the dead.

The way we had it figured was that at death the spirit remains sleeping in the bones either until it is freed by their being destroyed - say by burning, or otherwise until they rot into the ground. When raised as a wight the spirit is reawakened to hate - and kill.

The business of the cold iron swords in the crypts is clearly intended to prevent this, but I would say that those which have rusted away are not to be feared because by the same token the bones locked within will also have crumbled.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

This is something which we've discussed way back and also meshes in to what I suggested in the last thread about Old Nan actually being right when she speaks of cold dead things hating all life; but is actually speaking about the wights who hate the living precisely because they are the dead.

The way we had it figured was that at death the spirit remains sleeping in the bones either until it is freed by their being destroyed - say by burning, or otherwise until they rot into the ground. When raised as a wight the spirit is reawakened to hate - and kill.

The business of the cold iron swords in the crypts is clearly intended to prevent this, but I would say that those which have rusted away are not to be feared because by the same token the bones locked within will also have crumbled.

I don't have an argument with this explanation.  I think the Starks who are strong in the wolf blood and skinchangers are different. 

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think the short answer to some of these questions is that they are communicating through the direwolves rather than through the trees.

Except that Bran touches Ghost and enters Jon's mind.  I didn't think this was possible with the Wall in between.

[LynnS]

Rereading Bran V in aCoK is interesting.  This is where Bran learns that he is a warg, something he goes into denial about because of Old Nan's scary stories about beastlings and skinchangers.  

Old Nan told scary stories of beastlings and shapechangers sometimes.  In the stories they were always evil. "I'm not like that," Bran said.  "I'm not.  It's only dreams."  

"The wolf dreams are no true dreams.  You have your eye closed tight whenever you are awake, but as you drift off it flutters open and your soul seeks out its other half.  The power is strong in you."

"I don't want it.  I want to be a knight."

"A knight is what you want.  A warg is what you are.  You can't change that, Bran, you can't deny it or push it away.  You are the winged wolf but you will never fly."  Jojen got up and walked to the window.  "Unless you open your eye.:  He put two fingers together and poked Bran in the forehead, hard.

When he raised his hand to the spot, ran felt only the smooth unbroken skin.  There was no eye, not even a closed one "How can I open it if it's not there?"

"You will never find the eye with your fingers, Bran.  You must search with your heart."  Jojen studied bran's face with those strange green eyes.  "Or are you afraid?"

"Maester Luwin says there's nothing in dreams that a man need fear."

"There is," said Jojen

"What?"

"The past.  The future. The truth."

Jojen wasn't sent to Bran to open the third for him.  He was sent to tell Bran who he is; get past Bran's resistance.  Bran can't open his third eye before then.  It's Jojen's job to guide him in the use of the third eye.  In other words, Bran has to practice until he can do it at will.  The third eye doesn't just open one day;  it's a skill to be developed.  The same thing happens with Bloodraven.  Bran has to practice slipping his skin and entering the wiernet.  BR is there to guide him.

It's interesting that Jojen says that wolf dreams are not true dreams.  Because only one party is sleeping while experiencing the conscious experiences of the other. 

True dreams are related to the past, the future and the truth.  These are the fears that Bran has to overcome.  Notice that GRRM doesn't say: the past, the present, the future.   He says the past, the future and the truth.  So it's entirely possible that when Bran thinks he may have dreamed of Jon; it was in the future.

Bran wakes from his wolf dream and says "once, I dreamed I talked to Jon, or maybe I dreamed him."

It's not the same as saying he talked to him in that particular wolf dream. These are two separate experiences.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And now Bran is acting the part of the 3EC for Jon.  Who then finds out that he is warg from the Halfhand but has no one to guide him.  So we don't see him consciously developing that skill with Ghost. 

added:  Establishing this connection to Jon might be what is necessary for Bran to connect to Jon later if he ends up in Ghost after being stabbed.

 

On a side note:  there's a pretty good explanation in that chapter of why someone like Bloodraven can't affect the past and change outcomes.

[Black Crow]

I think the interesting [and significant] bit there is the business of the soul seeking its other half, which goes with the business of part of the warg being in the wolf and part of the wolf in the warg. The question then arises as to whether its an equal partnership and if not which one is dominant. In Rickon's case its clearly Shaggydog.

[Yield.]

14 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Interesting point about the wolves being able to sense each other, but not the humans involved. And you're right, that does take place even when on opposite sides of the wall. We don't see it going as far as communicating messages from one another. Which makes me wonder, could the wolves do it if they tried and this is an ability that the humans do not have, or is it that a stronger connection like the warg bond is required?

That reminds me of the time Jojen insisted on having Bran in Summer mark a tree or bring back a stone and the like. Bran would always forget to do those tasks once he was in Summer so I wonder if the wolf can get the message but just ignores it because there is no sense to human communications. If you look at the wolf words for things, wooden teeth, iron claws, they all relate back to concepts important to the way a wolf lives its life. This makes me wonder if the wolves sense their siblings partners riding in their consciousness whether they would find it important enough to mention, or if the Starks are savvy enough to pick up on it.  It also seems that Ghost is particularly interested in reaching out to his siblings more than the other wolves. That weirBran dream starts off with Ghost howling in loneliness and thinking about his pack. Jon's second wolf dream has much the same language in it,  Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained. as compared to There were five of them when there should have been six from that weirBran dream. I don't recall the other wolves wondering about their siblings, but that just might be because we don't get clear descriptions of Arya's dreams and Bran's actively in Summer for short periods now.

There is the one episode where Arya hears a lone wolf cry and it makes her dizzy. That quote that LynnS put up a few posts ago and the Tucu also mentioned last Heresy. Snowfyre linked that howl to Arya hearing Ghost at that same moment in time. Which if correct opens up all kinds of possibilities in terms of wolf to pack, and wolf to wolf blood communications.

 

14 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Of course this portion is ambiguous as always. Is he entering them to force them to come? Is he somehow holding them in thrall, and if so how? Or are they simply doing what they think he wants out of fear? Take your pick.

Thank you! Yes it's hard to tell because the women seem to submit without much fight. It could be cultural, since we know the wildlings need to steal a woman in order to be with her.

 

14 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Though I didn't get all of the way back through the chapter there are a couple of points that I found interesting. First, the beginning of the chapter appears to be from the POV of one of the wolves themselves, and not Varamyr per se. The wolves itself appears to refer to itself and others like him as themselves being wargs. 

Could this be a PoV example of what Rickon was going through in Thrones? Rickon is said to have become as wild as his wolf and there was no separating them. Luwin at one point is forced to keep Shaggy Dog isolated so that he would not harm anyone, but Rickon got inconsolable whenever he was not allowed access to his wolf. Was Rickon more in his wolf than any of the other Starks, the way Varamyr was in his dogs? He was in Loptail when the axe came down and Lump/V6 screamed. I think we see some of that mirroring in Shaggy and Rickon.

 

14 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

The second thing is all of the emphasis placed on the three "abominations." I understand that these might not be the best of things to do, but what is it about them that makes these actions taboo over any other. It seems that there are other things just as bad, if not worse that a warg could do. Why specifically prohibit these three? 

I think maybe some have to do with not becoming the animal too much. There is always the danger of the skinchanger remaining in the animal too long and forgetting how to be human. So the being in an animal while it's procreating would be too high an emotion for the human in the animal to separate him/herself from. The one about not inhabiting another human seems quite sensible. If you can take people over at will, then it's akin to rape. Not to mention the damage that can be done to a community if someone like Varamyr was to take over someone like Mance. And I don't remember the third abomination.

 

14 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

As for the skinchanging recognizing each other, only the old gods know how it works, but I have noticed that any time Jon seems to run into a skinchanger he doesn't know he experiences an unexplained bout of anger. Seems like the same thing happens to Ghost as it is often mentioned at that time that his hair is standing on end.

That same frisson happens to Bran in Summer when they encounter V6 in One Eye. Their hackles rise as soon as they recognise each other for what they are. That's brilliant Lady Dy, I had not noticed that before. I wonder if it's just an instinctual predator/prey reaction. There is always danger in finding a skinchanger more powerful than oneself. Just look at what V6 does when he encounters weaker skinchangers and wargs.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

On a side note:  there's a pretty good explanation in that chapter of why someone like Bloodraven can't affect the past and change outcomes.

Which comes back to arguing against a time travelling Bran. He may be able to see the past and see possible futures, but he can't alter the past to change those outcomes.

That's not to say he might not try, hence Leaf's warning about seeking to bring back the dead.

[Yield.]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Which comes back to arguing against a time travelling Bran. He may be able to see the past and see possible futures, but he can't alter the past to change those outcomes.

That's not to say he might not try, hence Leaf's warning about seeking to bring back the dead.

What is it that you think could happen if Bran tried to raise the dead?

Sorry if it was already discussed. I'm just curious because you've said the like before in the last Heresy.

[Brad Stark]

Raising the dead is different from changing the past so the person does not die

Obviously if Bran had no power to do it, BR would not warn him against trying.  I suspect BR did raise the dead - Coldhands.  I suspect he was a brother of the watch when BR disappeared.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think the interesting [and significant] bit there is the business of the soul seeking its other half, which goes with the business of part of the warg being in the wolf and part of the wolf in the warg. The question then arises as to whether its an equal partnership and if not which one is dominant. In Rickon's case its clearly Shaggydog

If it's the direwolf that initiates the contact; why doesn't Old Nan have all kinds of stories about it? The current generation can't be the only generation with wolf blood.  How long has it been since a direwolf has been seen south of the Wall?  Perhaps the Starks and the direwolves have been kept apart for a reason?   

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Which comes back to arguing against a time travelling Bran. He may be able to see the past and see possible futures, but he can't alter the past to change those outcomes.

That's not to say he might not try, hence Leaf's warning about seeking to bring back the dead.

Where do prophecies come from?  The question is it possible to influence the past through a green dream; someone in a fever perhaps?

[Tucu]

47 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Which comes back to arguing against a time travelling Bran. He may be able to see the past and see possible futures, but he can't alter the past to change those outcomes.

That's not to say he might not try, hence Leaf's warning about seeking to bring back the dead.

 

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Where do prophecies come from?  The question is it possible to influence the past through a green dream; someone in a fever perhaps?

In Norse mythology the 3 major Norns (one for past, one for present and one for destiny) decide the fate of people. Normal people can't change their fate, but minor norns (any being with magical powers) can peek into the destiny of people and change it.