Heresy 190

[Yield.]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

How long has it been since a direwolf has been seen south of the Wall?

200 years. According to Theon. Coincidence?

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Yield. said:

200 years. According to Theon. Coincidence

And Leaf says they have been waiting for Bran for 200 years.  What else happened 200 years ago?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Which comes back to arguing against a time travelling Bran. He may be able to see the past and see possible futures, but he can't alter the past to change those outcomes.

That's not to say he might not try, hence Leaf's warning about seeking to bring back the dead.

This is the point of there being a wheel of time, or ouroboros at play, because the same events keep happening generation, after generation, after generation.

The Targaryens seemed to have acknowledged that they were aware this was happening, because certain family members would "fulfill" certain roles: the reader, the warrior, the sept/septon, etc. Rhaegar thought he was the reader, then he read something that made him think he was meant to be the warrior. He also thought he was the Prince that was Promised, and then decided it must be his son, Aegon. I believe he changed his mind, because he discovered the red comet wasn't seen prior to his own birth. 

The wildlings too know that when the Thief is in the Moonmaid constellation it's a good time to steal a woman. 

If you know these same events are going to happen, you can change the outcome by changing who it happens to, basically change the present and you can change the future.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Yield. said:

What is it that you think could happen if Bran tried to raise the dead?

Sorry if it was already discussed. I'm just curious because you've said the like before in the last Heresy.

There are two issues; a straightforward one of raising the recently deceased who being dead are likely to hate the living; but also the question of reaching into the past to alter it by preventing a death in the first place, whether it might be the saving of Lord Eddard Stark or, say preventing whatever really happened at Summerhall, because if the past is changed the present will be destroyed and the future altered. The world is as it is and must remain so. The purpose of the greenseer is to guide the future by influencing the present rather than plunge past present and future into anarchy.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

There are two issues; a straightforward one of raising the recently deceased who being dead are likely to hate the living; but also the question of reaching into the past to alter it by preventing a death in the first place, whether it might be the saving of Lord Eddard Stark or, say preventing whatever really happened at Summerhall, because if the past is changed the present will be destroyed and the future altered. The world is as it is and must remain so. The purpose of the greenseer is to guide the future by influencing the present rather than plunge past present and future into anarchy.

I'm not saying that Bran will go back and save Ned or change anything in that way.  All I'm suggesting is that he was present in Lyanna and he extracted three promises from Ned and bound him to silence.

It's still an open question for me but I don't think we can answer it at this point.  I'm happy to move to a different topic.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

On 8/2/2016 at 4:03 PM, Black Crow said:

I don't have a problem with that, but I do think allowance has to be made for the direwolves themselves. I don't remotely see it as a case of any of the children of Winterfell warging say mastiffs. The direwolves were sent to them, one direwolf for each of the children and it was they who initiated the warg bond, and when its done while unconscious we have to allow for the possibility that the wolf has opened the door and the wolf who is warging the child rather than the other way around - hence John's beserk rages which have nothing to do with "waking the dragon" and everything to do with him being warged by Ghost.

Posted this on Reddit a month or two ago and the reaction was quite...negative.

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think the interesting [and significant] bit there is the business of the soul seeking its other half, which goes with the business of part of the warg being in the wolf and part of the wolf in the warg. The question then arises as to whether its an equal partnership and if not which one is dominant. In Rickon's case its clearly Shaggydog.

Rickon is what, three, four years old? Three year olds are pretty wild by nature. Sometimes they throw temper tantrums. You can't reason with them, because they're babies! If anything Shaggydog is like Rickon! I think you forgot what three year olds are like!

I'm sorry, but I think it's just silly to attribute superior cognitive or human-like attributes to the direwolves. The human brain may not be the largest in the animal kingdom, but we have the ability to reason and think on our feet beyond the capabilities of any animal. 

Jojen explained to Bran that part of him was in Summer and part of Summer was in Bran. They both take on a little bit of each other's personality, but the direwolves aren't controlling the Stark wargs. Robb may have been pretty ferocious, but Grey Wind didn't strategize.

[Lord Wraith]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

We're told the spirit remains in the bones until cracked open...unless you are a warg/skiinchanger. Warg/skinchanger's spirits leave the body upon death, but to enter a host there would have to be a previous connection. Ned could have been carried by the cold wind, but Varamyr's description about "melting"...well, the distance seems too far. At the end of Dance were Ned's bones home yet?

No the bones are still missing. Lady Dustin is still waiting for them so she can feed them to her dogs, or so she tells Theon. I would guess that Howland Reed is holding on to them.

Also I just realized that there are 19 castles on the Wall and Craster has 19 daughters. I wonder if there is a connection...

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

No the bones are still missing. Lady Dustin is still waiting for them so she can feed them to her dogs, or so she tells Theon. I would guess that Howland Reed is holding on to them.

Also I just realized that there are 19 castles on the Wall and Craster has 19 daughters. I wonder if there is a connection...

That's an interesting coincidence. If there is such a thing.  Also closing the Night Fort and moving to Castle Black 200 year previously; a direwolf last seen in the South 200 years prior; and the CotF waiting for Bran for 200 years.  The same number of WW as Stark children (but not direwolves): and the curious idea that the direwolves open the door to.....

 

 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm sorry, but I think it's just silly to attribute superior cognitive or human-like attributes to the direwolves. The human brain may not be the largest in the animal kingdom, but we have the ability to reason and think on our feet beyond the capabilities of any animal. 

Not what I'm suggesting at all: quite the reverse; the rational thinking human being is being taken over by and exhibiting the characteristics of a savage beast.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Posted this on Reddit a month or two ago and the reaction was quite...negative.

Sounds ...intriguing

Anything in particular upsetting people?

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Also I just realized that there are 19 castles on the Wall and Craster has 19 daughters. I wonder if there is a connection...

Possibly, but we don't really have anything to link them and while some of his numbering, like 13 does seem significant I can't avoid a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the correspondence in some of this stuff is subconscious or even laziness.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

That's an interesting coincidence. If there is such a thing.  Also closing the Night Fort and moving to Castle Black 200 year previously; a direwolf last seen in the South 200 years prior; and the CotF waiting for Bran for 200 years.  The same number of WW as Stark children (but not direwolves): and the curious idea that the direwolves open the door to.....

 

 

All probably consequences of Queen Alyssane taking the lands of the New Gift from northern lords and giving it to the NW, gifting the new Deep Lake castle forcing the closure of the Nightfort and the abolishment of first night rights. The New Gift got depopulated, there were less bastards available to sacrifice to the Old Gods and the Black Gate was forgotten.

[Brad Stark]

How likely is it all the Starks are naturally wargs?  I think the gift originates on the wolf side.

[LynnS]

48 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

How likely is it all the Starks are naturally wargs?

Only one in one thousand are strong enough to become skinchangers according to BR, IIRC. Fewer than that for greenseers.

[LynnS]

I feel a cracked pot coming on:

I think the great lore that raised the wall and protects from the killing cold fell when Drogon burned the blue heart at the center of the House of Undying. I think the ward stops the wights and Coldhands is still in place at the Black Gate and only appears when Coldhands is present. It's connected to the Hinge of the Wall. I think it's counterpart is located in the crypts of Winterfell and that door appears when direwolves are present. That might exlain why direwolves don't appear on the south side of the wall unless the old gods send them; why there are no Old Nan stories about direwolves; why all the kings of winter in the crypts have a direwolf by their side; and why direwolves initiate the warg bond. The ward at the wall is meant to point to the small but significant plot device: that direwolves initiate contact and open the door.

This might be the explanation for Hodor's fear when Ned comes to Bran and Rickon in the crypts.  The door or the Winterfell Gate is open and Hodor has some previous experience with it.  Possibly  he went into the crypts to see Ned's brother and father after they were killed by Aerys and something came through the gate that shouldn't be there.  This suggests something about Hodor's latent abilities before his mind was damaged.   Perhaps the future winged wolf came to open the door to recieve their spirits and Hodor came in at the wrong time.

I think both the Black gate and the Winterfell gate are tied to their respective godswood (heart) trees.  And I wonder if the Gate at Winterfell will have Bran's face.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

How likely is it all the Starks are naturally wargs?  I think the gift originates on the wolf side.

That's precisely what we've been discussing, hence the overturning of the one in a thousand.

I'll actually go a little further. Although much is made of blood I don't think the substance itself is so significant as the heredity; and in this case heredity of what?

Are we to believe that way back in the dim and distant a Stark ancestor mated with something inhuman to produce a long line of wargs, who haven't shown themselves until the present generation? Or is the answer that the Stark in question was warged, and his sons warged so that over the years the connection became imprinted in their genetic material because they had been ridden before; and thus it was all the easier for the direwolves [and not necessarily consciously and with intent] were able to fasten themselves on to the children of Winterfell?

[PrettyPig]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Possibly, but we don't really have anything to link them and while some of his numbering, like 13 does seem significant I can't avoid a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the correspondence in some of this stuff is subconscious or even laziness.

George likes his prime numbers:  3, 7, 13, 19, 79, etc.   Significance?  I have no idea.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Or is the answer that the Stark in question was warged, and his sons warged so that over the years the connection became imprinted in their genetic material because they had been ridden before; and thus it was all the easier for the direwolves [and not necessarily consciously and with intent] were able to fasten themselves on to the children of Winterfell?

I'd go with this answer.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Are we to believe that way back in the dim and distant a Stark ancestor mated with something inhuman to produce a long line of wargs, who haven't shown themselves until the present generation? Or is the answer that the Stark in question was warged, and his sons warged so that over the years the connection became imprinted in their genetic material because they had been ridden before; and thus it was all the easier for the direwolves [and not necessarily consciously and with intent] were able to fasten themselves on to the children of Winterfell?

Were the ancestors of all the skinchangers within the wildling people also imprinted in this way? The genetics are there, but it's a shared gene pool, unless all the wildlings are related to Starks.