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Jaime L

Westeros Experts League 2016

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It's no secret that I rarely,  rarely post on the board anymore and that I really only ever come back for FF. 

With that being said, having been part of Experts since it's birth, and having somehow held onto my place in this league for that long, I'd just like to throw this out there: I don't really partake in any feeder leagues anymore (barring Thunderdome and Phillip's Open invite), and I know we've said this before, but I really hate that if we're on the chopping block, the only way to save yourself is another league win. I understand it, but I hate it. Especially given that there isn't a "set" number of feeders/a lot of team overlap. 

 

Of course, I don't necessarily have a fix to this, I'm just verbalizing that I work 40+hour overnights as a nurse, have a family, and I only play in the three leagues that I play in because of the history behind them (and I genuinely love playing with y'all). I think whatever we decide on for determining entry needs to be voted on, and needs to not hinder the fact that people don't play in every league.  I almost think assigning points but allowing a 2 league maximum or something like that levels the playing field even more. 

 

Lastly...TradeRapes. We should have known then, guys. It was worse than what happened with Ser Paladin's team. 

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No system is going to be perfectly fair to everyone. At this point, I'd almost say that (effectively):

3 teams get Jaxomed (lowest power ranking)

Relegation can be saved by a win in any league (include TDome, Dynasty, and Outlaw) that season.

Open spots are filled by league winners of A, B, C or Open where a random number generator assigns open spots (e.g. 4 names (2 wins means your name goes in twice) and #s from 1-4 which determine seating to get added). That seems about as fair to everyone coming in and going out as can be. Points systems and more strict feeder setups seems like more heartache and angst than they are worth.

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I actually agree with that, Week. I was just griping my own issue, which is if I get Jaxomed, I would have a hard ass time getting back in myself. 

 

(Domination in Thunderdome 3 years running nonwithstanding.) 

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14 hours ago, Week said:

No system is going to be perfectly fair to everyone. At this point, I'd almost say that (effectively):

3 teams get Jaxomed (lowest power ranking)

Relegation can be saved by a win in any league (include TDome, Dynasty, and Outlaw) that season.

Open spots are filled by league winners of A, B, C or Open where a random number generator assigns open spots (e.g. 4 names (2 wins means your name goes in twice) and #s from 1-4 which determine seating to get added). That seems about as fair to everyone coming in and going out as can be. Points systems and more strict feeder setups seems like more heartache and angst than they are worth.

I like this also except for the inclusion of A... A is an invitation only league. I think membership for Experts should either take from the invite only leagues, or the open leagues, but not both. If it is decided to take from the invitation only leagues (Westeros A and Outlaw), then we should relegate those leagues every season also...

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I don't distinguish A as particularly different from the others.  Westeros A is a league that has been around for a couple years (and has, I believe, the most similar league setup to Experts). The same people are in it as are in B, C, D - the only difference is that the teams remain more similar year-to-year. As an "invite-only" league, it has no benefits to members of the league seeking entry to Experts over any other league. Differentiating Westeros A would make sense if it was an 8 team league or had some other change that made it demonstrably different from other leagues. Frankly, the concentration of long-time board members in Westeros A gives a better chance for new folks in B, C, and D - even without excluding A from the promotion/relegation system.

This past year, I was in A, D, and Thunderdome outside of Experts. The dissimilar league of that group is Thunderdome as A and D have the same set of players, setup, and only differ in drafting type (A was an Auction and D was a Snake draft). That is why Thunderdome is not typically considered a 'promotable' league and not for any other reason.

 

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It all depends on your priority.

If your priority is to make sure everyone has the same chance of making experts, then the more open the league the better.

If your priority is to make sure players who have demonstrated that they will attend drafts, respond to trade offers, participate in threads and stay with their lineups all season, then you need to look at the REASON people were invited to 'invite-only' leagues.  I can assure you that if I blew off a season in West-A and phoned it in, I'd not be invited back. 

Winning Westeros A is a real accomplishment.  It is an auction league (so you pretty much cannot autodraft and compete, unlike any snake draft league).  There are no teams that become 'bye weeks'.  The owners stay active to the bitter end, even when eliminated. 

And there is turnover in WA some years.  Invites go out to those people who do the things that I listed above.  Nobody gets in these invite leagues any way other than sticking it out year in and year out.  Players are known quantities. 

We've had some first-timers win leagues and become awesome new players.  We've also had 3-4 who've become real anchors, mostly because they won their way in by catching lightning, but didn't actually turn out to be serious players.

If someone wants to play in 8 leagues, and sticks with every single one of them all season long, that person seems to me to be the BEST candidate for Experts, if they manage to win 2 or 3.  That is the kind of person on whom one can rely.  A player who plays in multiple leagues but gets a reputation for folding their tent when things get tough is not the kind who generally has gotten an invitation in the past. 

If nothing else, I believe it is essential that qualification for Experts be something still subject to Commish veto, as it always was in the past.
 

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6 minutes ago, Bronn Stone said:

If nothing else, I believe it is essential that qualification for Experts be something still subject to Commish veto, as it always was in the past.
 

Fair - I do agree with the rest of what you say. Most importantly to me, a simple system along with consideration of a Commish is the best option.

I would say, with regards to A, that 'invite' is a bit of a misnomer. It is 80-90% the same individuals in the league year-to-year where those in it will typically take fewer spots in the 'open enrollment' B, C, or D.

 

It seems some of the concern of leagues starting up is knowing the timing. Would it make sense to save a distribution list of emails where a notification would go out (typically around the end of July) that league signups are beginning? This would help keep continuity for those who don't check the boards as regularly and have concern about missing it. A master list of contacts would be helpful too.

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Ok, been everyone's thoughts (and anyone who took the time to weigh in, it's appreciated). Picking who makes Experts in a given year has always been more than an art than a science. We've had 3 different commissioners of Experts and different potential feeder leagues pretty much every year. I know there was talk of implementing JJ's point system, but I'm not sure if we ever formally did. But if people want a more formalized process going forward with hard and fast rules, instead of a general sense of the criteria and who gets in, we can do that. 

So I'm going to make 2 posts on the subject. 1) discussing the criteria for getting in this year based on how this was discussed before this season (this post) and 2) another which has a proposal for how we handle Experts going forward that we can vote on. Note, that I can implement everything everyone wants but think there's an idea out there that should factor in a lot of what I see people saying regarding fairness and simplicity.  

Ok, first, 2017 Experts Entrants:

As I see it, we have 4 contenders for 3 spots:

1) Bronn - Jaxomed but won Dynasty
2) JJ - Won W-A and W-D
3) Dunknegg - Won W-B
4) Pyro - Won Open

Analysis:

1) Ok, I believe Bronn saved himself by winning Dynasty. I know this was not a primary feeder league but my memory of how a Jaxomed team can save himself is winning any league. If someone can pull from the archives an old post that shows I'm mistaken, definitely do so as I could just be misremembering. But unless that happens - Bronn's in

2) JJ's in for winning two leagues, including a primary feeder in W-D. Yes I made a post before the season listing W-B, W-C and Open as feeders but I wasn't even aware of the existence of W-D at the time (because it didn't exist last year). But the setup of the league is exactly the same as B, C and Open. There's no good rationale for not including it as a primary feeder, and winning W-A on top of it should more than cover any concern over his Experts worthiness this year. 

3) So that leaves Dunk and Pyro for the third spot. I know Dunk wants in Experts but does Pyro? 

If so, need Pyro to confirm that. I'll reach out to him and have him post here. Also, can someone in the know compile each of their results? This may be the situation where it's fairest to apply JJ's point system as a fallback.

Weigh in if you see anything that seems off in the above. 

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I don't know if this will make a difference but the drafts in B and C were different. B was the snake draft and C was auction. Everything else was the same.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Lyman said:

I don't know if this will make a difference but the drafts in B and C were different. B was the snake draft and C was auction. Everything else was the same.

Yep, but that's just to give an option to those who prefer snakes over auctions or vice versa. But when I say they're the same, I mean they're completely open, redraft leagues which was the main criteria people were looking at in terms of which leagues should be feeders. 

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1 hour ago, Bronn Stone said:

If it matters, Pyro was a runner up in Westeros-D.

I am inclined to agree. 

Pyro won Open and was 2nd in W-D. I think he may have played in a 3rd league as well but not 100% certain.

i also think(but might be wrong) that he played in B last year and got 2nd. I'm not aware of any other leagues he played in and think it was his first year to join.

i placed 1st in B and 11th in Thunderdome this year so he would have the advantage this year.  My only advantage would be history and # of championships.

My league history here is:

2016(noted above),

2015 W-A(4th), W-B(6th), W-C(3rd), Thunderdome(8th), Open(7th)

2014 W-B(10th)

2013 W-B(1st)

if Pyro wants in Experts I don't feel I outperformed him this year. As long as we can come to an equitable, long term feeder or points or combination thereof regulations we can more or less accept and not go through this uncertainty each year, I will call this season a success!

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17 hours ago, Jaime L said:

If so, need Pyro to confirm that. I'll reach out to him and have him post here. Also, can someone in the know compile each of their results? This may be the situation where it's fairest to apply JJ's point system as a fallback.

Weigh in if you see anything that seems off in the above. 

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I'd only add that I think that randomizing any tossups (or all spots really) would be easier and more fair than any litmus test. 

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Regardless, welcome back JJ and good to still have Bronn!

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On 1/4/2017 at 10:42 PM, Jaime L said:

Ok, been everyone's thoughts (and anyone who took the time to weigh in, it's appreciated). Picking who makes Experts in a given year has always been more than an art than a science. We've had 3 different commissioners of Experts and different potential feeder leagues pretty much every year. I know there was talk of implementing JJ's point system, but I'm not sure if we ever formally did. But if people want a more formalized process going forward with hard and fast rules, instead of a general sense of the criteria and who gets in, we can do that. 

So I'm going to make 2 posts on the subject. 1) discussing the criteria for getting in this year based on how this was discussed before this season (this post) and 2) another which has a proposal for how we handle Experts going forward that we can vote on. Note, that I can implement everything everyone wants but think there's an idea out there that should factor in a lot of what I see people saying regarding fairness and simplicity.  

Ok, first, 2017 Experts Entrants:

As I see it, we have 4 contenders for 3 spots:

1) Bronn - Jaxomed but won Dynasty
2) JJ - Won W-A and W-D
3) Dunknegg - Won W-B
4) Pyro - Won Open

Analysis:

1) Ok, I believe Bronn saved himself by winning Dynasty. I know this was not a primary feeder league but my memory of how a Jaxomed team can save himself is winning any league. If someone can pull from the archives an old post that shows I'm mistaken, definitely do so as I could just be misremembering. But unless that happens - Bronn's in

2) JJ's in for winning two leagues, including a primary feeder in W-D. Yes I made a post before the season listing W-B, W-C and Open as feeders but I wasn't even aware of the existence of W-D at the time (because it didn't exist last year). But the setup of the league is exactly the same as B, C and Open. There's no good rationale for not including it as a primary feeder, and winning W-A on top of it should more than cover any concern over his Experts worthiness this year. 

3) So that leaves Dunk and Pyro for the third spot. I know Dunk wants in Experts but does Pyro? 

If so, need Pyro to confirm that. I'll reach out to him and have him post here. Also, can someone in the know compile each of their results? This may be the situation where it's fairest to apply JJ's point system as a fallback.

Weigh in if you see anything that seems off in the above. 

I would gladly accept an invitation into Experts, fantasy football has sort of grown on me since I joined last year.

In regard to Dunk's posts, yes I did finish 2nd in Westeros B last year, and this year including Open and Westeros D I was part of the inaugural Defense league (5th in Reg season, 7th final standings) & finished 5th in Westeros C.

After reading everyone's posts on inclusion and relegation, I have to say I agree with a number, if not all, of the points made.

 

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It's settled then, Pyro, JJ and Bronn should get the invites to Wxperts. Congrats guys!

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If we are looking for committed players, Dynasty should probably be higher in the priority list.

I am in the same boat as Mya.  I tend to not do very many leagues so if I am ever Jaxomed it would be hard for me to get back in the league.

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On 1/7/2017 at 0:34 PM, Dunknegg said:

It's settled then, Pyro, JJ and Bronn should get the invites to Wxperts. Congrats guys!

Yeah, based on last year's results think Pyro gets the nod. That said think either of you would be a great addition to Experts. And don't lose hope - you're first on the waitlist if anyone drops out. That ain't nothing -it's how Week got in the season before. 

Ok, that's our tentative 2017 Experts field: Groz, Mya, WJ, me, Week, POTN, Mudguard, Bronn, JJ and Pyro.

Post on how we handle future Experts seasons to follow...

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