Bakker: Pounded In The Brain By The Great Ordeal Spoilers III

[sologdin]

1 hour ago, Sci-2 said:

Kellhus having intercourse with Proyas touches on something about the sexualized element of religious devotion. 

am liking the cut of this jib.  agamben, in homo sacer, works through the 'ambiguity of the sacred,' finding, inter alia, that consecration, in the hebrew scripture, is apparently always the devotion of something specifically to destruction, but marked out for the tetragrammaton; the term is herem, and it means variously 'to ban,' 'to consecrate,' 'to devote.'  safe to regard 'devotion' as an unequivocally ugly thing?

[Sci-2]

22 minutes ago, sologdin said:

am liking the cut of this jib.  agamben, in homo sacer, works through the 'ambiguity of the sacred,' finding, inter alia, that consecration, in the hebrew scripture, is apparently always the devotion of something specifically to destruction, but marked out for the tetragrammaton; the term is herem, and it means variously 'to ban,' 'to consecrate,' 'to devote.'  safe to regard 'devotion' as an unequivocally ugly thing?

"Unequivocally ugly"?

I was thinking more Rudolph Otto's ideas of the Numinous, where the Divine is both beautiful and terrifying.

Quote

" Otto was one of the most influential thinkers about religion in the first half of the twentieth century. He is best known for his analysis of the experience that, in his view, underlies all religion. He calls this experience "numinous," and says it has three components. These are often designated with a Latin phrase: mysterium tremendum et fascinans. As mysterium, the numinous is "wholly other"-- entirely different from anything we experience in ordinary life. It evokes a reaction of silence. But the numinous is also a mysterium tremendum. It provokes terror because it presents itself as overwhelming power. Finally, the numinous presents itself as fascinans, as merciful and gracious.  "

 

[sologdin]

kickass.

here's agamben (op. cit.) regarding otto & the numinous:

Quote

What is at work here is the psychologization [sic] of religious experience (the 'disgust' and 'horror' by which the cultured European bourgeoisie betrays its own unease before the religious fact), which will find its final form in Rudolph Otto's work on the sacred.  Here, in a concept of the sacred that completely coincides with the concept of the obscure and the impenetrable, a theology that had lost all experience of the revealed word, celebrated its union with a philosophy that had abandoned all sobriety in the face of feeling.  That the religious belongs entirely to the sphere of psychological emotion, that it essentially has to do with shivers and goose bumps - this is the triviality that the neologism 'numinous' had to dress up as science.

 

[Sci-2]

17 hours ago, sologdin said:

kickass.

here's agamben (op. cit.) regarding otto & the numinous:

Well it's a psychological phenomenon in the sense that it deals with an interaction between our own experience [and the context of our circumstances].

I'd say that in terms of the Bakkerverse Proyas at first feels the numinous in terms of how Otto might think of it - as something genuinely touching an aspect of the Real beyond the confines of his own mind. Over time, as Kellhus pummels his faith, he begins to feel it is simply the latter as noted in your quote - that his own ability to sense the Truth Faith is nothing but self-deception.

 However Proyas' whole life has been a seeking of this religious ecstasy, whose only comparison in mundane existence is sex. (I suppose some might suggest certain drug use, though the reliability of orgasm and religious ecstasy seems to bring those closer than psychedelics? No bad trips, cutting a baggie with garbage, etc.) 

For years, during the hardest years of his life where he oversaw the deaths of thousands, the focal point of that ecstasy was Kellhus. Tear away the religious aspect, and the only hope of reaching that comforting certainty for Proyas is the blotting out of wayward thoughts - easy to see why Proyas doesn't resist when Kellhus anally penetrates him.

That Kellhus looks like the ideal Aryan Jesus....perhaps a bit too on the nose?

[unJon]

Rereading TTT the imagery of Kelhus being the NoGod is quite striking. In talking to Moenghus he hears the NoGod voice in the NoGod font, saying What do you see? Proyas literally sees him as the whirlwind in the distance as he kills the last few Cishaurim. Then Akkahas an ahistorical dream of the Kyreaneas King being taken over by the NoGod. 

 

On Onkis: she is mentioned rarely in the text. But she is definitely portrayed as a severed head on a copper tree, which at first glance looks like a head on a pole. I think this theory of Onkis being the grounding of Kelhus in the Outside has legs. There is a head on a pole behind you  

Also Cu'jara-Cinmoi is the Copper Tree of Siol. The TTT appendix says no link between the two had been discovered, but it feels like a Bakker hint perhaps. So the most famous no man king, who is the product of incest, holding a severed woman's head. That's Onkis? Not sure where to go with this. Did Cu'jara-Cinmoi create the hundred by severing Onkis head?

We also know Onkis tried to save the life of Inrau. Whe told him to run from the Synthese. So I'm taking that to mean she's "good". 

Doesn't feel like we have enough puzzle pieces to draw a firm conclusion  anyone have ideas?

Bonus feature: Ajokli's depiction is a man whose chin is resting on his own erection  

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, unJon said:

Rereading TTT the imagery of Kelhus being the NoGod is quite striking. In talking to Moenghus he hears the NoGod voice in the NoGod font, saying What do you see? Proyas literally sees him as the whirlwind in the distance as he kills the last few Cishaurim. Then Akkahas an ahistorical dream of the Kyreaneas King being taken over by the NoGod. 

 

On Onkis: she is mentioned rarely in the text. But she is definitely portrayed as a severed head on a copper tree, which at first glance looks like a head on a pole. I think this theory of Onkis being the grounding of Kelhus in the Outside has legs. There is a head on a pole behind you  

Also Cu'jara-Cinmoi is the Copper Tree of Siol. The TTT appendix says no link between the two had been discovered, but it feels like a Bakker hint perhaps. So the most famous no man king, who is the product of incest, holding a severed woman's head. That's Onkis? Not sure where to go with this. Did Cu'jara-Cinmoi create the hundred by severing Onkis head?

We also know Onkis tried to save the life of Inrau. Whe told him to run from the Synthese. So I'm taking that to mean she's "good". 

Doesn't feel like we have enough puzzle pieces to draw a firm conclusion  anyone have ideas?

Bonus feature: Ajokli's depiction is a man whose chin is resting on his own erection  

 

Well guess you just figured out the head on a pole.

 

 

[matt b]

11 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Well guess you just figured out the head on a pole.

 

 

I know it sounds like a joke, but I seriously believe that.

[Larry of the Lawn]

4 minutes ago, matt b said:

I know it sounds like a joke, but I seriously believe that.

I meant it as a joke, but it could totally be Ajokli stalking Kellhus through the Outside.

 

Eta:. So was CJ Cinmoi's agreement to be inoculated and the Womb plague what fractured the god?  The head on a pole / onkis is the sacrifice of the Nonmen women to give immortality to their men?

[Sci-2]

2 minutes ago, matt b said:

I know it sounds like a joke, but I seriously believe that.

Well the symbolism occurs for reasons that are likely beyond the cultural in the Bakkerverse - both Onkis and Ajokli represent aspects of Consciousness that are beyond our - and perhaps the rest of the Hundred's - ability to capture.

So I do think it's a nice catch.

[Gaston de Foix]

I think the Nonmen created the head on the Pole (i.e. Onkis) a lot earlier than Cujara C'inmoi. It seems like Imimorûl came first (who created the Gods), followed by Tsonos and Olissis (founded Nonmen royal titles) and then followed by Cujara C'inmoi. 

The Gods (i.e. the Hundred) wanted the Nonmen to worship them, but the Nonmen refused, choosing oblivion instead. 

[Gaston de Foix]

So I have two crackpot questions. Various attempts at rebirthing the race of miscegenation between men and Nonmen have occured; the only real success seems to have been the rape on Omindalea a while ago. Yet Anasurimbor Serwa is a woman unlike any other to walk the earth insofar as she is Dunyain and also bears very small traces of Nonman blood herself. Isn't there a real chance she could successfully bear a nonman child to term, and possibly multiple children thereby rebirthing the Nonman race? I assume she was raped in Ishterebinth, but maybe not. 

Also, after reading the Ishterebinth storyline, I'm confused. Why would Ishterebinth falling to the Consult lead to the destruction of the Great Ordeal? It doesn't look like a handful of Intact, or even the hundreds of Erratics who still dwell there, will make a meaningful difference against the thousands of Nonmen who have joined the Consult cause. 

[jurble]

1 hour ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Isn't there a real chance she could successfully bear a nonman child to term, and possibly multiple children thereby rebirthing the Nonman race? I

The odds would've been better with an earlier Anasurimbor princess with more Nonman blood.  The question is why Nil'Giccas never (as far as we know) asked for Anasurimbor brides during Far Antiquity for himself or his sons.  Royal marriages are a thing, even among Nonmen.  It's possible he did, but that the Anasurimbor declined for religious reasons or something.

 

Also possible that he did ask for Anasurimbor concubines, not wives and the Anasurimbor wouldn't consent to anything less than marriage.

37 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Do we have any good evidence of what kind of Nonman numbers the Consult has? 

 

Oiranal says thousands.  The Yoke Legion had a dozen Quya or so attached to it, and this was after they had lost who knows how many Quya in the Thousand Thousand Halls.  The Consult don't seem stingy with throwing away Quya in the manner that humans are with their sorcerers. 

[Lies And Perfidy]

39 minutes ago, Triskan said:

One of the things I'm curious about coming out of Ishterebinth is whether the Tall can be rallied and controlled.  If it's true that their thoughts are less disordered than the typical Erratic but their humors are move violent they could be quite the weapon especially given that they are already Tall. 

My kingdom for a scene of couple dozen huge-ass Nonmen stomping their way across Agongorea. Like the Rohirrim at Pelennor Fields, crossed with Shaq running a training camp for elementary school kids.

[Gaston de Foix]

5 hours ago, Damned with the Wind said:

The odds would've been better with an earlier Anasurimbor princess with more Nonman blood.  The question is why Nil'Giccas never (as far as we know) asked for Anasurimbor brides during Far Antiquity for himself or his sons.  Royal marriages are a thing, even among Nonmen.  It's possible he did, but that the Anasurimbor declined for religious reasons or something.

 

Also possible that he did ask for Anasurimbor concubines, not wives and the Anasurimbor wouldn't consent to anything less than marriage.

I am curious whether the intellect of the woman in question plays a role in whether they can bear nonmen children, much like Kellhus' seed was too much for anyone other than Esmenet to bear. Also Serwa is descended from the Dunyain women who were bred for breeding. 

That being said, I don't think we'll end up with a reverse Aragon-Arwen. I don't even think they have much military significance to the upcoming conflict. Instead, I think the Nonmen are in someway critical to reversing or completing what they started with Onkis and the creation of the Hundred, i.e. to changing the metaphysics of Earwa. 

[karaddin]

I'm curious as to whether even Quya pose a threat to Kellhus (or even Serwa) regardless of their numbers.  I feel like the greater part of sending Serwa to Ish was to undermine the place with Dunyain skills, but I also have the impression that Kellhus was confident she could fight and do all that was needed just by herself.  She's clearly (from what we've had prior to this) by far the most powerful sorceror aside from Kellhus, and while the teleportation metagnostic cant takes it out of her, she can still do multiple per day and perhaps others come easier.  Kellhus knew that Ish had fallen, so this conflict was entirely the point of sending her there - not the stated goal of sending emissaries, so he had already countered whatever threat they would pose to the ordeal.  I guess even if they can't touch AK or AS, if they killed a large number of the rest of the schools of the Ordeal then thats likely a problem. Its not like the Anagogic schools would even put up a fight against Quya.

All I'll say about the conversation on the last few pages is that if the promised pay off to the obscenely misogynistic setting is 'uppity whore gets put in her place' I will trash this series whenever it comes up and view Bakker as having been incredibly dishonest with his fans/potential fans. The only way that thematic arc would be rewarding is if you are asserting that women are just inferior IRL as well, and you want to see them put in their place...and I assume a fair portion of his fans would actually be on board with this. Would make him a hero of a certain voting section too.

[Darth Richard II]

As much as Bakker fans can piss me off, are there really a section of his fan base that seriously believe women are inferior in real life? Cause that's fucked up if so, but I've never actually seen that, though to be fair my main interaction with the Bakkerites is on these forums, where I don;t think that would, uh, go very well.

[karaddin]

You've been on the internet in the last few years, right? Its an assumption I'm making here, but I find it very hard to believe there isn't a portion of certain groups that wouldn't be all over his novels.  Perhaps not, and they would simply approve of that shit without being fans, or hearing about it would inspire them to read the books...my point is those people are clearly there and would approve of this shit if they read it. 

[unJon]

What do the board entomologists make of the On prefix? The fact that it starts Onkis and onta may be another link in this theory about Onkis being the first or the head on the pole or something. 

[sologdin]

16 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

 However Proyas' whole life has been a seeking of this religious ecstasy, whose only comparison in mundane existence is sex. (I suppose some might suggest certain drug use, though the reliability of orgasm and religious ecstasy seems to bring those closer than psychedelics?

etymology of ekstasis is 'standing out [of self],' a displacement.  am liking the thematic consistency here with other narrative details.  we return therefore to the genealogy of morals (III.xx)--

Quote

This ancient mighty sorcerer in his struggle with displeasure, the ascetic priest--he had obviously won, his kingdom had come: one no longer protested against pain, one thirsted for pain; 'more pain! more pain!' the desire of his disciples and initiates has cried for centuries.  Every painful orgy of feeling, everything that shattered, bowled over, crushed, enraptured [!], transported [!]; the secrets of the torture chamber, the inventiveness of hell itself [!]--all were henceforth discovered, divined, and exploited, all stood in service of the sorcerer, all served henceforward to promote the victory of his ideal, the ascetic ideal.

12 hours ago, Lies And Perfidy said:

My kingdom for a scene of couple dozen huge-ass Nonmen stomping their way across Agongorea. Like the Rohirrim at Pelennor Fields, crossed with Shaq running a training camp for elementary school kids.

ride of the rohirrim except with ents.  we should expect something like this. cil-aujus was for instance a thought experiment about what if the fellowship brought its own balrog to moria, a sort of authorial metagnostic cant that exponentiates from a famous tolkienian scene.

5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

As much as Bakker fans can piss me off, are there really a section of his fan base that seriously believe women are inferior in real life? Cause that's fucked up if so, but I've never actually seen that

Mad NRx fedora hatters, yes?

[matt b]

18 hours ago, unJon said:

On Onkis: she is mentioned rarely in the text. But she is definitely portrayed as a severed head on a copper tree, which at first glance looks like a head on a pole. I think this theory of Onkis being the grounding of Kelhus in the Outside has legs. There is a head on a pole behind you 

You know, the more I think about it the more I think this is correct. I hadn't realized that Bakker literally describes Onkis' idol as looking like a head on a pole:

"At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole." http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Onkis

There's an implication there that Onkis and Ajokli might be working together to war against the rest of the Hundred. Must be rough when Hope and Deceit are on the same side.