Bakker: Pounded In The Brain By The Great Ordeal Spoilers III

[lokisnow]

5 minutes ago, unJon said:

Haven't seen Barriers discussed yet. What were people's takeaway of what they were and the metaphysics of how/why they worked. I didn't notice that sorcery didn't work in Barriers. I thought the point was that the gods couldn't see through them so you could do sorcery there. 

They couldn't be circumvented by magic Nor chorae. 

[unJon]

1 hour ago, lokisnow said:

They couldn't be circumvented by magic Nor chorae. 

Just reread every mention in TGO of the Thresholds. Don't see where you got that from. They are obsidian posts taller than a man connected with lintels. They divide the room so that every second step crosses a threshold. And somehow this setup is thought to baffle the gods so they can't see what happens in that room. 

 

 

[Latan]

I think that the Chorae neutralizes the magic of the collar, rendering it inert and allowing for her to use sorcery.

 

[jurble]

By the barrier I think @lokisnow means Emilidis' Barricades the seal the Ark, not the Nonman religious thresholds.  The Barricades couldn't be broken by Chorae and were made by Emilidis, same as the Agonic Collar.

[lokisnow]

1 hour ago, Damned with the Wind said:

By the barrier I think @lokisnow means Emilidis' Barricades the seal the Ark, not the Nonman religious thresholds.  The Barricades couldn't be broken by Chorae and were made by Emilidis, same as the Agonic Collar.

Yes.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Yea, the torturer keeps remarking about Serwa hiding a "poison pen" and that's why he gags her. I think Locke has the right of it and she'll break the collar the same way the barricades were broken. She's singing fire and ruin nonetheless. I just can't help but think we're shown the bit with the chorae and chipmunk for a reason though.

[sologdin]

right, harapior is seduced by her mundane singing, apparently in his dead wife's voice, which she knows from mandate memory.

[generic]

At least the anagogik collar didn't prevent you from casting, it just inflicted enough pain to knock you out. Even Akka managed a short spell before it got to him. Serwa probably just brute forced it.

[unJon]

14 hours ago, Damned with the Wind said:

By the barrier I think @lokisnow means Emilidis' Barricades the seal the Ark, not the Nonman religious thresholds.  The Barricades couldn't be broken by Chorae and were made by Emilidis, same as the Agonic Collar.

Oops. But still WHAT ARE THE THRESHOLDS???

[redjako]

Have ya'll discussed Achamian reconciling Kellhus "speaking" to Seswatha to gain the Gnosis? I feel its something pretty missed out as far as being cognitive dissonance for Achamian; does he think Seswatha's heart was "fooled" as any man/woman could be by a Dunyain?

Maybe it relates a bit to his dreams skewing away from Seswatha.

I've read the older threads back in the first trilogy, but maybe its just a plot thread that has been entirely ignored in the Judging Eye, WLW etc. books.

[Gaston de Foix]

4 hours ago, redjako said:

Have ya'll discussed Achamian reconciling Kellhus "speaking" to Seswatha to gain the Gnosis? I feel its something pretty missed out as far as being cognitive dissonance for Achamian; does he think Seswatha's heart was "fooled" as any man/woman could be by a Dunyain?

Maybe it relates a bit to his dreams skewing away from Seswatha.

I've read the older threads back in the first trilogy, but maybe its just a plot thread that has been entirely ignored in the Judging Eye, WLW etc. books.

I agree.

I don't think Seswatha was fooled; rather he was persuaded that Kellhus is in fact the Harbinger and needed the Gnosis to protect humanity. 

I think the fact that Eskeles for example, is dreaming of the Coffers because Achiaman is obsessing about them is likely because Kellhus "speaking" to Seswatha liberated Achiaman in some way from Seswatha's grip. In some way, Achiaman has managed to have access to the real Seswatha or become the Ur-Seswatha. 

Of course, we know so little about the nature of the Mandate ritual: I have always assumed that some portion of Seswatha's soul inhabits each of the Mandate sorcerors, but how he managed to split his soul into so many fragments, I don't know. Are his hungers being tormented on the outside? 

I am also really interested in the Celmomanian prophecy from the perspective of Celmomas. How can Gilgaol predict that Anasurimbor will come at the end of the world if the No God is the Eschaton? If only Birth and War can seize (as opposed to receive) souls, why does Gilgaol seize Celmomas and why give the prophecy? 

[jurble]

It's been pointed out that the description of Gilgaol could also be that of the Ajokli - the 4-Horned Brother, who we know is aware of the No-God.  Celmomas was dying and saw what he wanted to - Gilgaol with his crown of 4 spoils vs. Ajokli's 4 horns.

 

Wild Mass Guessing: Kellhus and Akka (after reconciliation) will enter the Ark after the No-God's summoning to destroy the Consult, because when else would the Consult be vulnerable than when the No-Gods walks and summons away all their minions?

[Gaston de Foix]

9 hours ago, Damned with the Wind said:

It's been pointed out that the description of Gilgaol could also be that of the Ajokli - the 4-Horned Brother, who we know is aware of the No-God.  Celmomas was dying and saw what he wanted to - Gilgaol with his crown of 4 spoils vs. Ajokli's 4 horns.

 

Wild Mass Guessing: Kellhus and Akka (after reconciliation) will enter the Ark after the No-God's summoning to destroy the Consult, because when else would the Consult be vulnerable than when the No-Gods walks and summons away all their minions?

“The vision’s eyes were fury, his hair the tangle of warring nations, and his teeth were as whetted blades. A crown gleamed above his brow, four golden horns, clutched in the arms of four nubile virgins—the Spoils. Bones and bodies clotted the ravines of his grim expression. And his cloak smoked with the burning of fields. Gilgaöl, the Dread Father of Death, the All-Taker.

Excerpt From: R. Scott Bakker. “The Great Ordeal.” 

I don't think that was Ajokli - the description makes it sound like the horns are being held by the virgins rather than on his head. Also, the Odinic description and the fact that we are told that only "Birth and War can seize", i.e., decide to grasp souls which have not dedicated themselves to the Gods, strongly suggests this is Gilgaol.  

[Gaston de Foix]

Has anyone come up with an explanation for the glow around Kellhus' hands? My own theory is that it is a product of worship by other souls - like Sejenus' the fact that Kellhus' soul is an object of worship, first by Serwe, and then by so many others, has made him more than just an ordinary soul. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

“The vision’s eyes were fury, his hair the tangle of warring nations, and his teeth were as whetted blades. A crown gleamed above his brow, four golden horns, clutched in the arms of four nubile virgins—the Spoils. Bones and bodies clotted the ravines of his grim expression. And his cloak smoked with the burning of fields. Gilgaöl, the Dread Father of Death, the All-Taker.

Excerpt From: R. Scott Bakker. “The Great Ordeal.” 

I don't think that was Ajokli - the description makes it sound like the horns are being held by the virgins rather than on his head. Also, the Odinic description and the fact that we are told that only "Birth and War can seize", i.e., decide to grasp souls which have not dedicated themselves to the Gods, strongly suggests this is Gilgaol.  

Couldn't agree more, I'm not buying that it's Ajokli.

[Caligula_K3]

I have a question for all you big Bakker fans about the metaphysics of his universe, which is coming up for me as I re-read the original trilogy and read about the history of Earwa (thanks Werthead!). I haven't read The Great Ordeal yet, so if this is explained in there, please feel free to tell me to just read it.

So, in Bakkeruniverse the Outside is real and a reflection of the real world. If everybody in a society condemns sorcerors, then after death sorcerers will be damned to hellfire. This then forms the motivation for the Inchoroi; they're a race of lovers, and their loving is viewed as a perversion, so they know they will be damned. And therefore they want to close off Earwa to the outside by killing enough people or whatever.

Ok, so that's fine so far. But how does this work given that the metaphysics of salvation and damnation are based on the practices of the real world? The Inchoroi presumably come from a home planet (or the Ark gave birth to them or whatever). On their homeplanet/ark, presumably their love activities are approved of by themselves. So why would they be damned based on the mores and customs of Earwa before they even arrive there?

Similarly, given that different societies on Earwa will have different religious practices and ideas about who is holy, profane, or damned, how does this filter into the absolute nature of damnation and salvation in the Outside? If society one believes sorcerors are holy and society two believes they are offensive to the gods, and both societies have around the same population level, which wins out? Or do both win out, and so sorcers from society one get saved and sorcerers from society two get damned? Similarly, if Khellus decrees that sorcerors are no longer condemned and enough people believe him, do sorcerers stop being damned?

I guess the gist of my question is to what extent the gods decide who is damned, and to what extent the people in individual societies do, and how much scope there is for conflict in ideals between different societies and planets.

 

[lokisnow]

43 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I have a question for all you big Bakker fans about the metaphysics of his universe, which is coming up for me as I re-read the original trilogy and read about the history of Earwa (thanks Werthead!). I haven't read The Great Ordeal yet, so if this is explained in there, please feel free to tell me to just read it.

So, in Bakkeruniverse the Outside is real and a reflection of the real world. If everybody in a society condemns sorcerors, then after death sorcerers will be damned to hellfire. This then forms the motivation for the Inchoroi; they're a race of lovers, and their loving is viewed as a perversion, so they know they will be damned. And therefore they want to close off Earwa to the outside by killing enough people or whatever.

Ok, so that's fine so far. But how does this work given that the metaphysics of salvation and damnation are based on the practices of the real world? The Inchoroi presumably come from a home planet (or the Ark gave birth to them or whatever). On their homeplanet/ark, presumably their love activities are approved of by themselves. So why would they be damned based on the mores and customs of Earwa before they even arrive there?

Similarly, given that different societies on Earwa will have different religious practices and ideas about who is holy, profane, or damned, how does this filter into the absolute nature of damnation and salvation in the Outside? If society one believes sorcerors are holy and society two believes they are offensive to the gods, and both societies have around the same population level, which wins out? Or do both win out, and so sorcers from society one get saved and sorcerers from society two get damned? Similarly, if Khellus decrees that sorcerors are no longer condemned and enough people believe him, do sorcerers stop being damned?

I guess the gist of my question is to what extent the gods decide who is damned, and to what extent the people in individual societies do, and how much scope there is for conflict in ideals between different societies and planets.

 

Basically most Earth real world conflict throughout history is about who's god is RIGHT, so the crusades etc.

The idea of bakker's universe is this taken to it's logical extreme. one people's faith is RIGHT and everyone else in the world is condemned to damnation as a result. but take it to the further extreme, one people's faith is RIGHT and everyone else in the UNIVERSE is condemned to damnation as a result.  

C.S. Lewis wrote his entire space trilogy of books to refute this logical extension (which is why that series asserts that God has sent Jesus to every single world and people on every planet throughout the universe) and Mark Twain offered the same refutation and assertion of Jesus being sent to every planet in "Captain Stromfield's Voyage to Heaven", and the Book of Mormon is basically Joseph Smith offering up the idea that God tried to save the native americans as well by sending Jesus to this continent, rather than God limiting himself to only saving a small religious Arabic sect.

The entire fundamental existence and spread of Pauline Christianity is to make God's offer of salvation available to the entire world and not just to the Jewish people.

So it's a common thing with religious thinking, to run afoul of the principal of a "chosen people" when that principle is taken to it's logical extreme.

Bakker, I think, believes himself to be the only person that has ever seen this 'chosen people' contradiction and then the only person ever been bold enough to rub people's faces in it to try to PROVE to them how ridiculous it is.

But it does get to the fundamental heart of the universe, as you say, and it isn't particularly addressed in The Great Ordeal.

 

 

[jurble]

1 hour ago, Caligula_K3 said:

So, in Bakkeruniverse the Outside is real and a reflection of the real world. If everybody in a society condemns sorcerors, then after death sorcerers will be damned to hellfire.

This is incorrect. It was a popular theory prior to the second trilogy, but evidence doesn't support it.  Belief doesn't alter the facts of damnation.   What humans (or Nonmen or Inchoroi) believe doesn't matter.  Sin is objective and immutable.

The inward and the Outside both do conform to desires, but not in matters of sin.  If I want a burger in the Inward, then reality will predispose itself towards approaching a future where I have a burger.  If I want a burger in the Outside, I get a burger.

[Kalbear]

And to be clearer, neither the gods nor individuals decide what is damned. The gods have no control over who is damned, just what happens to them when they are. Individuals have no say either, though in theory they can choose what actions can be taken and thus can avoid damnation. 

But what actual actions damn people are as immutable and constant as the speed of light in a vacuum.

A thought occurs to me based on lokisnow up thread-  there is no evidence that anyone on earwa can be anything other than damned either. Or any human. If Inchoroi are humans and are damned due to an accident of birth, why wouldn't humans also be damned? Why would we assume that humans on earwa are the magical belief lottery winners?

[jurble]

14 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

A thought occurs to me based on lokisnow up thread-  there is no evidence that anyone on earwa can be anything other than damned either.

Mimara has seen the righteous (including herself) as distinct from the damned - they shine rather than burn.