SER SHADRICH, HIS ALLIES AND ADVERSARIES.. (Morgarth, Byron, Creighton, Illifer)

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I similarly have a problem with the Elder Brother being Morgrath.  Why would he leave the monastery where he has been ensconced for 15 years.  To help someone he has barely heard of?  And how would he know where Sansa is?  Or did Bloodraven tell him too?  (He's the all-seeing, all-knowing mastermind of everything that has happened in Westeros since the beginning of the series! )  If he does want to help Sansa and knows where she is, why not tell Brienne?  He has no reason to doubt either her sincerity or ability.  It makes more sense than him going off under a fake name.  Also, I don't see how he could make it in time either.

Well, the last section of Brienne's meeting with EB is her confession about her life and ending how she must find Sansa Stark. Add the fact that Sandor is the gravedigger, who also has a strong connection to the Stark daughters and sees them as his chance to redemption, nd you would know why EB might have an interest in having the girl found.

At the time, with Brienne, he may not yet have gotten the crucial information that might give someone like the EB pause. But it may have come shortly after. Also, seriously, the last person you want to take to the Vale to fool Littlefinger is Brienne. It's not that Brienne can't fight. It's that she sticks out of a crowd and can't lie. Brienne and deception just doesn't go together.

We are specifically told that EB is the man who gathers the information of what happens outside of QI. And he knows quite a lot.

What is the information to give anyone pause, now that Lysa Tully is dead (the news that made Brienne decide not to go to Gulltown after all) - that LF has a young beautiful bastard daughter nobody heard of existing before. Sandor has been Joffrey's personal knight for years. Sandor knows LF. He'd be the first to suspect there's something "fishy" (Tully-trout pun) about LF having a bastard daughter all of a sudden.

Also, perhaps Morgarth may actually be EB's real name. How can we even say whether he is traveling under a fake name, when we don't know his original name. We are also told how he looks more a knight than a monk or a healer.

Meanwhile we conveniently have bones, corpses, rubies and armor washing onto the QI.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

I also see no way for Howland (or Shadrich, for that matter) to know Sansa is in the Vale.  If anything, I would expect Howland to help Robb, and if he is going to go anywhere, I would expect it to be Winterfell, where I think it is likely that there will be a future confrontation with the Others.  In fact, I think that if we have seen Howland at all, he is the Hooded Man Theon encounterd.  (No, I don't buy that one either, but it makes more sense than being Shadrich).

Why would HR be a sexist when it comes to saving Ned's children, especially after only so few are left? It was Ned's sister who stood up for him at the Tourney. It was Ned's sister he went looking for all the way into the Red Mountains of Dorne, and with Ned the sole survivor (aside from him). If he can help find a sister, why not be motivated to find a daughter? There was contact with the crannogmen by LS, but we have no idea why exactly, and it's assumed that Lady Mormont and Glover who were sent by Robb, and signed the will also reached it. There is also no reason to suppose that HR would remain at the Neck, in his castle, while he sends both his own children to WF and eventually beyond the wall with Bran. Jojen had his dreams. HR does not have the greensight, but he's a magician trained by the green men of the isle at the Gods Eye. However, by aDwD, surely HR would already know he won't find his own children at WF, and we already have a lot of people out to try and save "Ned's Little Girl" from WF. None of that positively IDs Shadrich as HR, but a lot of the arguments against him being Shadrich seem based on well arguments as unsolid as quicksand. 

As for how would Shadrich (whomever he is) discover where Sansa is? Well, it would be very easy to follow Brienne's trail to Duskendale, Maidenpool, learn who she killed at Cracklaw point, and what direction and with whom she left Maidenpool. She's quite memorable a character to have met. In order to follow her and Meribald by yourself all the way to the QI though, you'd need to be someone able to navigate reed country off the map as well as mud flats. Shadrich did come upon the information to go to the Vale, to find Sansa, and the QI is a likely place for it. If he had shown up alone you can say he made a wild guess. But now he's got 2 louts for company too. You'd need some info to convince 2 other men to go with you there. 

And Ser Byron's handkiss sounds like he's the one of the three with the role to ID Alayne as Sansa.

It is speculative, and there is not enough to make a positive confirmation, but there's lots of stuff about Brienne's voyage, people she meets and country she travels through that could be hints at Shadrich teaming up with EB and a 3rd person who can confirm Sansa is Alayne. There's that pious dwarf, who serves to help Brienne on Nimble Dick's path. That dwarf seems to end up dead afterwards, and is brought before Cersei who remarks Tyrion wouldn't have grown a bulbous (veined) nose. By the description of the dwarf what type of sellsword attack he survived, he might actually have been hidden inside that log (a tree connection) of the same sept where one of Vargo Hoat's men practiced on a septon's butt when Urswyck arrived with captured Jaime and Brienne. When Brienne sees the dwarf's tonsure she remembers a discussion with her septa, who explains monks do this "because they want to show the Father they have nothing to hide", and Brienne said, "Can't the Father see through hair?". Take those lines in the setting of LF versus Shadrich and company, and we have three figures who have something to hide from the father, and a father who can't see through "hair".

Morgarth's red bulbous veined nose is important in connection to Sansa, since both that pious dwarf and Dontos have such a nose too. So something funny is going on with that nose. "Follow the nose".

Nimble Dick is the man who "fooled the fool". But he's killed by a man who was hiding in the "red leaves" of a weirwood tree, and then Nimble Dick is buried beneath the weirwood sapling. That's strong First Men weirwood scenery. Incidentally, Shadrich has hair which the wildlings would call "kissed by fire" (like the red leaves of a weirwood tree) and albino mouse sigil. Shadrich is for sure someone more than he says he is (especially when that albino mouse) shows up in a chapter that's all about ID-ing someone with sigil symbolism.

And in the "reed country" during her travels with Meribald, Ser Hyle and most importantly Dog (who belongs to nobody but himself), there's a mention of a fox crossing their paths and making Dog bark. We are meant to see Dog = Sandor, since Brienne asks where Meribald is to the BwB and Gendry answers she "killed him" thinking she meant Rorge with the Hound's helm. Shadrich is fox-faced. How will the gravedigger (Dog) respond if Shadrich appears at the QI, also looking for Sansa? 

At Duskendale at the shop where Brienne has her Dunk sigil painted over her "flying mouse" sigil, we get a whole description of the tree and "fantasy castle" painted at the door, and the painting includes a "fox" and "sparrows" (monks, men of the Faith).

It's all hints, nothing enough to fully confirm an ID for either 3 characters, but it does indicate that something much deeper is going on than "they are just who they say they are", and those hints point to a FM weirwood connection, swamp lands in combination with men of the faith. And why is Brienne's voyage after Shadrich still important to it? Because her whole aFfC plot is full of mis-identification of people. She mistrusts those she can trust, and trusts those she shouldn't. Shagwell and his companions are Dontos the fool and 2 Stark daughters in her mind (or Sansa and the Imp). Gendry is mis-IDd with Renly. She doesn't recognize the gravedigger = Sandor. EB must tell her that Driftwood = Stranger, a warrior's horse. She never figures out that she's on the trail of Arya Stark, until again EB spells it out to her. Never does she even consider that Sansa might be disguised as someone else. She's bad with sigils and IDs and judging people's characters, because deception is alien to her. So, she ends up on a fool's errand, a fool's trail, which is why EB told her to go home = she's not cut out to find anybody who she's looking for and who doesn't want to be found. EB would realize that by only hearing less than half her tale that led her to the QI, which is exactly the reason why he tells her to go home. And EB knows something about deception, because he helps people hide. Meanwhile she comes across everybody else, but never realizes it unless they reveal themselves to her. But Shadrich for sure ain't no fool, since he ends up at the right place and seems to know exactly who Alayne is (because he stays too). Hence, Shadrich knows something of deception and disguises. HR is one of the characters who is connected to stories about disguises and deception: the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, and whatever he did to save Ned. 

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Spoiler

Though I find it very unreliable info, we do get a scene with HR who's cut to the face by Arthur Dayne, and goes down first, but isn't dead. Shadrich has a scar of a cut near his ear.

I get the "ugh, once again people not being who they say/think they are", but you can't deny that the books are full of characters like that, since aGoT, all the way to aDwD. Heck, quite a few POVs claimed to have been or are someone they're not: Arya, Sansa, Barristan was disguised, Jon Snow (he's just not aware of it), Theon (ID crisis and Theon when he's Reek, or Reek when he's Theon), Bran (when he met the Flint in the cave South of the Wall), Tyrion pretending to be a mummer's dwarf, JonCon (having been Griff). George is not going to shy away from it. It's a constant theme. That doesn't necessarily mean that everybody has a fake identity in the books. But some characters are certainly hinted at being so. Though I agree there must be some logic to it. But what Brienne's arc in aFfC certainly teaches is that nobody can find someone who's disguising themselves and using an alt-ID, without knowing something of hiding, disguising and deceiving people themselves.

You also mentioned having "timing issues", but never truly go into that. What is the timing issue?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

A couple points -

Nimble Dick is associated with First Men symbols because he is of First Men blood. The Andals never conquered Crackclaw Point. He probably worshiped the Old Gods.

Any clever (fox-like) bounty hunter who was searching for Sansa, and who did a little homework, would reach several conclusions. 1) She had help escaping KL from someone in addition to Dontos. 2) The Gold Cloaks already searched the roads around KL, so assuming she escaped by ship is your best bet. 3) Her most likely destinations by ship would be either the Vale or White Harbor. Ser Shadrich wouldn't need special intel to decide to check out the Vale first, and there's no reason to link him with EB.

Once in the Vale, it would not be hard for a clever person to pick up on the rather suspicious nature of LF's suddenly-revealed bastard daughter. Yeah, Brienne is lousy as a missing persons P.I. Shadrich isn't.

Neither Meera or Jojen are described as fox-faced, and they both have brown hair. The same is probably true of Howland. A hedge knight like Shadrich would have trouble continually dying his hair to maintain a disguise.

Just for the record, there is no confirmation that LS has ever met any crannogmen - that was speculation by one of the Darry women, IIRC.

If Ser Shadrich is really HR, why hasn't he told Bronze Yohn? What does he (or BR, for that matter) hope to accomplish? As long as she manages to keep LF out of her smallclothes, Sansa is as safe as she is likely to get right where she is. The marriage to Harry the Heir wouldn't be bad for the North. (I don't think LF is planning to allow the marriage to happen - it's a trap for Harry.) She could even openly declare herself, and accuse Olenna of Joff's murder. The Vale Lords would rally around her and never let Cersei take her.

I'm dubious of the EB-Morgarth thing because EB has a full-time day job that he likes and is good at. The Dog- fox encounter foreshadowing a meeting between Sandor and Shadrich is a good catch, but that probably won't happen at QI. Sandor seems to as restless there as Stranger.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

If we look at Shadrich and Morgarth individually, we have hints at their possible identities, but I think we do need to consider both together because GRRM places them together.  In Alayne II, AFFC, they are hired together along with Ser Byron by LF as hedgeknights looking for work as hired swords.  When we consider each one in relation to the other, we get a clear and plausible conspiracy between the three.  We can establish means, motive, and opportunity for each one that works with the others.  This is theory I've been working on over in another thread that evolved out of the original post if you want to read it  here.  I need to give so much credit to @sweetsunray and @Ashes Of Westeros for many hints and helpful leads, so thank you both.  You guys turned it from crackpot to slightly less than crackpot 

So I agree with @bemused for all the reasons laid out for Shadrich = HR and Morgarth = EB.  I think it makes the most sense out of all the speculation when you take all the hints together.  The only thing I'm changing who I believe Ser Byron is.

Ser Byron is Sandor Clegane under a glamor spell  

I apologize for the length in advance!!!

Before this gets dismissed outright, I'm going to lay it out pretty thoroughly why it's plausible.  I'm not going to keep re-hashing the identities of Shadrich and Morgarth, because it's already been done pretty well.  I'll just expand on it and tie it into Sandor as Ser Byron. 

I.  Glamor Spells:  How do they work and is it applicable here?

II.  Howland Reed and the Green Men

III.  The Gravedigger:  What about that leg wound?

IV.  Why "Elegant" Ser Byron the Beautiful Makes Sense

V.  Something similar has happened before:  The Mystery Knight

VI. Other hints from Brienne's journey and interesting side notes

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I. Glamor Spells.

We have a lot of good information from Melisandre I, ADWD, on what makes a good glamor spell.  Bones and a gemstone, particularly a ruby are used by Mel to cast a glamor spell on Mance to make him look like Rattleshirt, despite Mance being taller.

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"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

....

"The glamor, aye." In the black iron fetter about his wrist, the ruby seemed to pulse. He tapped it with the edge of his blade. The steel made a faint click against the stone. 

"The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that." 

 Glamoring is not restricted to R'hllor and appears to be something any magician can do of any discipline or religion.  The Faceless Men also teach glamoring but take it to the final level of donning a dead person's face.  The Ugly Little Girl, ADWD:

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Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with.

Indeed, magic does overlap and no one appears to have a monopoly on any form of it.  From The Mystery Knight, we have a glamor spell cast by one-eyed Bloodraven to disguise himself as Ser Maynard Plumm, only this time a moonstone is used instead of a ruby.

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Dunk whirled. Through the rain, all he could make out was a hooded shape and a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder.

The Quiet Isle most definitely possesses the raw materials for a strong glamor spell.  Elder Brother specifically says there are ("Rhaegar's") rubies that have washed up on their shores and there are thousands of bones and hair available on the isle from many anonymous dead soldiers and knights from wars past.  Not to mention we also have their possessions of clothing and armor. So that parts easy enough, but do we have the sorcerer?  

II.  Howland Reed and the Green Men

In Meera's telling of the little crannogman in Bran II, ASOS, she is definitely speaking of her father, Howland.  What follows is the story of the events of the tourney of Harrenhall, but what's most interesting is what she describes happened before that:

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He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people.

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"

"No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

...

"The lad knew the magics of the crannogs," she continued, "but he wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces.

"No one visits the Isle of Faces," objected Bran. "That's where the green men live."

"It was the green men he meant to find..."

...

All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he'd left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore.

Not only do we have traits like boldness, bravery, smarts, strength, and well-traveled, which has much in common with our Mad Mouse, we have Howland as a serious student of magic when he came to manhood.  He already knew how to weave words, talk to trees, and make castles appear and disappear.  That sounds like a type of glamor magic as no outsider can ever find Greywater Watch.  It is said to move, but may also be hidden with spells.  No man just visits the Isle of Faces.  He spent all winter there with the green men to learn from them.  The Isle of Faces in the God's Eye is one of the last known places to have weirwoods in the south of Westeros.  It's also believed to be a possible location greenseers met to bring on the "hammer of the waters" to break the arm of Dorne.  The is also where the First Men and the CotF signed their pact, ending their wars, and the order of green men was started to care of the last remaining weirwoods in the south.  He must have been a very trusted person to spend so much time with the green men learning their secrets.  The crannog are heavily linked to the CotF in the past as (it's not clear when) another hammer of the waters was attempted and resulted in the boggy Neck, where the crannog make their home in it's natural defenses.  It is strongly suggested then that Howland Reed is a very powerful magician and could definitely be capable of glamor magic.  Don't forget Howland Reed's impeccable timing for showing up precisely for the historically important events at the tourney of Harrenhal as a witness and participant.  And now we have another tourney on the horizon... 

III.  The Gravedigger:  What about that leg wound?  Is he physically capable?

There's much speculation on what physical condition Sandor is in since Brienne witnesses the gravedigger with a pronounced limp.  I think by the time we reach TWOW Alayne sample chapter, it is plausible he's completely healed or almost totally healed.  Using the ASOIAF timeline, we have a rough estimation of how much time has passed since Arya left the Hound to die to the point we know Shadrich, Morgarth, and Byron are at the Gates of the Moon.  It's just an estimation, but can give us a good idea.  Arya leaves Sandor to die at the Crossroads at around 1/30/300.  Brienne sees the gravedigger around 4/20/300.  So roughly 3 months later, Sandor who was near dead is already up and doing hard physical labor digging graves for days on end, burying the dead of the war.  That's an incredible rate of healing.  And Elder Brother is not just a good healer, he's said to be an excellent healer that has successfully treated people maesters couldn't.  There's a First Men / old gods vibe going at the Quiet Isle, particularly the Hermit's Hole where the Elder Brother resides:

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Septon Meribald smiled. "It is called the Hermit's Hole. The first holy man to find his way here lived therein, and worked such wonders that others came to join him. That was two thousand years ago, they say. The door came somewhat later."

They're whole religious order on the isle was founded by a holy man 2,000 years ago and focused on miracle work.  The cave, this holy place, pre-existed the Andal invasion that brought the Seven, so it was likely adopted by their faith much like early Christianity adopting pagan holy sites.  There's evidence of First Men culture/old gods presence all over this region and this points to magic-infused healing.  Sansa will descend from the Eyrie to the Gates of the Moon and meet the three hedge knights around 5/14/300, so roughly 2 weeks to 3 weeks after Brienne saw the gravedigger.  If Shadrich was tracing Brienne's path and it wouldn't be that difficult as she's so distinctive and terrible at hiding anything, he would have wound up at the Quiet Isle sometime after her within a week or two maybe.  The tournament is scheduled to be held in the autumn of that year, so even more time.  So it's completely possible for Sandor to be fully healed and functional.

IV.  Why "Elegant" Ser Byron the Beautiful Makes Sense

First, I'd like to point out that bemused was perfectly spot on to recognize something significant about the name Byron.  Instead of paralleling the actual guy, I'm taking it to be more of a descriptive.  "Byron-esque" heroes in literature are typified by dark romantic themes and are brooding, arrogant, and self-destructive.  That's very spot on to the Hound and I think other readers have made that comparison in their analysis.  A glamor would probably be the only way the most recognizable guy in Westeros could get around LF and Sansa without being detected.  A glamor could be anyone, there's thousands of bones to chose from, and one would assume someone more average could have been chosen to blend in.  But this is Ser Byron the Beautiful and Sansa describes him as "elegant," tall and with long blonde hair.  He definitely stands out from the other two.  Elegant seems to be more of an adjective for styling and manners rather than handsomeness of his face.  While Sansa seems to overlook details about Byron, it's very possible a gemstone like a ruby would be on an elegant person.  I do believe the kissing of her hand by Byron is a signal to the other two of a positive ID of Sansa and is also a sign of loyalty and intentions.  Sandor is in the unique position to be the one who can ID her through a disguise and as we've established has means, motivation, and opportunity to be there.  When Sandor last saw Sansa at the BotBW, he mistakenly assumed her closing her eyes was because she was still afraid to look at him.  So it makes sense that an identity of Byron would be chosen, because Sandor would assume Sansa would find someone like him approachable, trustworthy, and probably attractive enough for him to get close.  Everything about him is the exact opposite of Sandor, but we know from KL and with Arya at the Twins he is very capable of making himself unassuming.  Hell, he even fooled a knight that knew him into thinking he was a farmer and that was without a glamor.  He would be perfectly aware of courtly behavior and be able to imitate it convincingly.  This is the only scene in which Byron makes an appearance even though he's hired with the other two and that probably means he's being withheld for a later appearance.  

Spoiler

In TWOW Alayne I sample, Sansa bumps into Shadrich and he catches her.  This is some thing we've seen Sandor do many times in a protective way, which seems to be a hint at his helpful intentions.  Later at the feast, she will dance with all 3:  Byron, Shadrich and Morgarth.  If Byron can dance without any trouble and he is Sandor, that means his leg is fully healed and he's just fine.  If I had to guess, I would say aside from expected behavior at a feast, the dance is to get Sansa more familiar and comfortable with all three if they need her to comply with a plan later.  And there is that matter of who Alayne will give her favor to since it's not Harry, which should prove very interesting.   

V.  This has happened before...

Well, a very similar situation has happened in The Mystery Knight.  I'm giving credit here to @Ashes Of Westeros for pointing this out.  Ser Duncan the Tall attends a tourney at Whitewalls where the host is Lord Ambrose Butterwell, a former master of coin who is also to be married during the tourney.  Butterwell is involved in scheming here as the event is also a ruse for others who support the Second Blackfyre Rebellion to gather.  Dunk meets and befriends 3 hedge knights, one of whom was the previously mentioned Maynard Plumm, who was Bloodraven under a glamor in other to squash the Blackfyre plot.  (I do have the strong suspicion of HR being an agent of BR).  So while we don't have exactly the same situation, we have enough parallels to show the GRRM does indeed use glamors as a device to hide identities, especially easily recognizable people like Bloodraven or Mance Rayder.  We have a tourney, a betrothal of Alayne to HtH instead of a wedding, and we have a scheming host who was a former master of coin.  Events at tourneys are a treasure trove of symbolism and parallels throughout the series.  There's also some parallels here with the tourney of Harrenhal, but inverted in that we have a possible Reed in disguise helping a Stark.  Remember at the tourney of the Hand, LF bet against the Hound and lost.

VI.  Other hints from Brienne's journey and interesting side notes

Much gratitude needs to be given to @sweetsunray in this area for the leads and insights.  In Brienne's chapters in AFFC, she does make a prayer to the Crone for guidance in finding Sansa.  I do believe her prayer is answered, but unfortunately Brienne is painfully awful at detective work.  Brienne is put in the path of 4 people that could help her find Sansa.  I think those people may be symbolically represented in the mural on the doors where she had her shield painted in Duskendale.  It's a scene of an unnamed castle in autumn and forest with a sly fox, 2 sparrows, and the shadow of a boar behind the leaves.  These are symbols of characteristics and occupations, not house sigils.  We already have fox-faced, sly Shadrich and the 2 sparrows could be our humble, penitent brothers (also called Sparrows) EB and Septon Meribald, who will lead Brienne to the Quiet Isle and EB.  EB immediately knows Brienne is referring to Sansa and EB has access to information of the happenings outside the QI.  That leaves the "shadow of the boar" obscured by leaves.  A boar is a very strong animal that is known to root up and overturn earth.  We only see it's shadow, meaning it's presence is known, but we can't see it directly.  That sounds quite a bit like the gravedigger.  Sweetsunray is absolutely right about a running theme in Brienne's chapters of "fooling the fool" and in the case of our three hedge knights, "fooling the fooler."  Brienne meets the pious dwarf who will set her to finding a "fool" who she believes is Dontos at the Stinking Goose Inn.  The pious dwarf's description seems like a fusion of all 4 men, plus add to the fact that he told Brienne he had to dig graves (with help of the Smith who rules labor) for his previous companions that were killed by outlaws:

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Not until he hopped off the bench did Brienne realize that the speaker was a dwarf. The little man was not quite five feet tall. His nose was veined and bulbous, his teeth red from sourleaf, and he was dressed in the brown roughspun robes of a holy brother, with the iron hammer of the Smith dangling down about his thick neck.

Quoting sweet from our original discussion:

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 For example the pious dwarf also has a veined bulbous nose and he has part of his hair shaved off (like most men of the Faith). When she sees him she remembers how her septa told her they shaved part of their hair to show the Father they d nothing to hide. And Brienne then asked her Septa, "Can't the Father see through hair?"

He also is the person who puts her on the trail of Nimble Dick, the person "who fooled a fool."

Now of course within context, Brienne had that discussion with her Septa about a god seeing into the minds of men. But put it next to Morgarth with his bulbous veined nose and his companions, and it gets a whole different meaning. They have something to hide from the father (LF), who indeed cannot see through their hair disguise.

Another person with a red bulbous nose was Dontos, Ser Fool. LF fooled Dontos, but these three mean to fool the fooler

From Brienne's travels with Septon Meribald and Dog through the boggy, wet lands (very much like the Neck and repeated mentions of being among the "reeds") they have have crossing of paths with a fox which makes Dog bark.  This could be symbolic representation of Shadrich (the fox) meeting on the QI that makes Sandor (the dog) stir into action.

From Brienne's travels with Nimble Dick Crabb, we also get much information on the region of Crackclaw Point.  He tells us the area is First Men stock who never were conquered, they bent the knee and were loyal to the Targaryens since.  There is a weirwood at the ruins of Crabb's family seat that Brienne buries him under.  The houses were among those that fought for Rhaegar on the Trident in Robert's rebellion.  Also House Brune, as in Ser Lothor Brune (LF's hired sword), is from this area. It's possible EB was from this region in his former life as he fought for Rhaegar and may also have First Man ancestry.  HR of course was loyal to House Stark and fought for Robert at the Trident.  This doesn't put them at odds when you consider the connection of BR who is a powerful greenseer/sorcerer and staunch Targ loyalist and HR is in possession of Robb's Will naming Jon Snow as his heir.  There's also a little parallel done between Sandor and BR.  Sandor is noted to have the look of the north, despite being from the westerlands, which is said to represent his future loyalties.  Both Sandor and BR have their disfigurements on the left side of their faces, both at the hands of their brothers (Gregor and Aegor, even similar sounding names).  While Sandor's face was burned but his eye was intact, BR lost his left eye.  Both comb their long, straight hair covering their disfigurement, where one is white and the other is black.  They also favor wearing similar clothing colors of "blood and smoke" (Sandor has a red tunic in one scene and his armor is "soot grey").  Sandor's scars are blackened skin with red fissures, red on black, Targaryen colors.  What those possible parallels mean for the future is too early to guess, but it's very interesting to note.  

And one last interesting tidbit from sweetsunray on paralleling with Jon/Ygritte and the wildling "romantic" custom of bride stealing:

Quote

The Thief is a wildling name of a star constellation and Ygritte argues how the best time to "steal" a woman is when the Thief is in the Moonmaid.

  Quote

...the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. Andwhen the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."(aSoS, Jon III)

The quote from Jon's chapter is followed by the following remark of Jon.

  Quote

"I never meant to steal you," he said. "I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat."

 

Who held a knife to Sansa's throat? I only recall Sandor doing that.

 If the rough timeline is correct, the tourney at the Gates will take place almost exactly one year from when Jon met Ygritte.  Sandor is an admitted "thief" for stealing a song from Sansa, but he didn't actually steal her since the timing was all wrong, he was in a PTSD/drunken meltdown, and she wasn't consenting.  And now we're set up with auspicious timing and circumstances that would seem favored by the gods, the old and the new.    

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Nimble Dick is associated with First Men symbols because he is of First Men blood. The Andals never conquered Crackclaw Point. He probably worshiped the Old Gods.

Of course... But you don't need a whole "weirwood tree" scene and buryng the guy beneath one to make that clear - we already know this by Nimble Dick telling Brienne with his histories of Cracklaw Point. It's the weirwood scene itself that stands out to me.

Shadrich: kissed by fire + red eyed white mouse. The mouse links to HH, red eyes to greenseeing or greensight, kissed by fire is weirwood tree

What does a weirwood look like? White stem with red fiery leaves. In other passages, of weirwood trees, those red leaves are sometimes described as if on fire. Not to mention that Nimble Dick was killed by a morningstar, aka heralding dawn.

What is the main most important lesson for Brienne in that death? That Nimble Dick was someone she should have trusted. And in fact the experience makes her reconsider whether she should find the two hedge knights Creighton and Illifer and join up with them, remembering how they looked trustworthy enough.... And she's wrong again: because they ate "trout" in a chapter where almost every line is about sigils. She should have trusted Shadrich, the one she mistrusted from the beginning, just like she always mistrusted Nimble Dick (who does act very suspiciously. Who does not mistrust Nimble Dick at all, even upon re-reading?), and somehow is connected to weirwoods.

1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

If Ser Shadrich is really HR, why hasn't he told Bronze Yohn? What does he (or BR, for that matter) hope to accomplish? As long as she manages to keep LF out of her smallclothes, Sansa is as safe as she is likely to get right where she is. The marriage to Harry the Heir wouldn't be bad for the North. (I don't think LF is planning to allow the marriage to happen - it's a trap for Harry.) She could even openly declare herself, and accuse Olenna of Joff's murder. The Vale Lords would rally around her and never let Cersei take her.

Actually, if you ever read my Sansa and the Giants prediction theory, you would know why I don't think Sansa is safe at all: avalanche coming down the Giant's Lance to kill many people and destroy much of Gates of the Moon + mountain clans conquering the damaged Bloody Gate. If GoHH can see stuff in flames about Sansa, I'm pretty sure that other seers can see massacres happen in the Vale as well. I'm not going to argument that theory here, since the essay is 20k words long with all the quotes to back it up. 

And this ties in with "mouse" tie to HH. HH lies at the Gods Eye lake with the Green Men. The only character we know who ever managed to reach the isle with the weirwoods and green men was HR. He stole by the Twins, with a boat, in the darkness, traveled down the Green Fork and was taught more magic at the island. Both in aSoS and aFfC we get activity of Stark supporters and related people being sent into the Neck to reach HR (it doesn't have to be LS, but there are reports of men going into the Neck. This is mentioned at Darry's to Jaime, but was reported by Black Walder Frey who pursued outlaws into Hag's Mire, but they disappear into the Neck). There can be no doubt whatsoever that contact was made. The reason why people are guessing where he'll show up, is because it makes no sense that HR would remain inside the Neck, but he sends his own children North for magical purposes. HR is not the Lord of Saltpans or Maidenpool. I agree the High Sparrow makes no sense whatsoever. HR isn't connected with Faith, and a magician like HR busying himself with power games with Cersei just doesn't fit. And killing some of Ramsay's guys at WF is more of a revenge arc, that HR could send anyone for to do if he wished to. But someone with a HH link, weirwood link, and looking for a Stark daughter, especially with all the Robb's Will stuff sounds far closer. It is certainly logistically possible for HR to go to the Gods Eye once again to confer with the green men at the Gods Eye, and learn some stuff that he knows the Vale is no safe place whatsoever (Burned Men related fire stuff), and Brienne killing 3 mummers at Cracklaw Point in front of a weirwood sappling and looking for Sansa would most certainly be seen. So, a magician who has access to greenseers and on the look-out for Brienne is certainly a logistically workable theory. It would take a person on horse less than a fortnight to get to the road of Duskendale from HH area.

HR could have a good reason not to seek out Bronze Yohn: keep him far away from the Gates of the Moon and the Bloody Gate. Besides Shadrich and company hooked up with LF in Gulltown. That's where LF went for the wedding of Lyonel Corbray and the merchant's daughter. LF returns from that wedding having arranged the conditional betrothal to Harry, and 3 "hedge knights" he hired.

It's possibly correct that Shadrich embarked a ship at Maidenpool, but if he is HR he could have convinced them to do a stop over at Saltpans, either to try and catch up with Brienne or get to the QI, before sailing off for Gulltown. That cave of the Elder Brother is ancient, older than the Faith.

2 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Neither Meera or Jojen are described as fox-faced, and they both have brown hair. The same is probably true of Howland. A hedge knight like Shadrich would have trouble continually dying his hair to maintain a disguise.

Possibly, but HR didn't get his children on his own. It takes two to tango. We don't know who their mother is and what the mother looks like. But we do know that of Ned's five children only one looks like a Stark - Arya. All the others look like a Tully. Only in the case of Baratheons are children not looking like Robert or Renly significant.

And then there is the courser. Destriers and palfreys are the expensive rare horses. The courser is a cheaper war horse, but still an expensive one and more in the range for lords and knights. A typical hedge knight horse is an all-purpose ordinary rouncey (as Pod rides). Rounseys aren't even specificially bred. It's just a horse, but can be trained to take part in a war, but used as a pack horse just as well. Shadrich claims to be poor, but his courser says otherwise. That said. If he is HR or at least a crannogman, he probably bought it along the way.  

For @bemused, I solved the issue for chestnut course for Shadrich: we don't know the gender of Shadrich's horse. And we did have a chestnut courser mare that Sansa rode during the riots. What happened? Instead of that chestnut courser mare ending up riderless (like red stallions do, or are "false" like Dontos) she ended up carrying two people on her back: Sandor who rescued Sansa. The chestnut courser appears a few times: Sansa being saved by Sandor during the riots, Ser Shadrich, Ser Hyle rides one and Blackfish rides ones. Certainly BF is also a savior, guardian type. It's speculated that he will attempt to save Jeyne Westerling, Robb's widow. And while Ser Hyle played a game with Brienne that hurt her immensely, and it was toughtless, I don't have the impression he's a bad guy. And he shares Shadrich's scar beneath the ear.

1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

The Dog- fox encounter foreshadowing a meeting between Sandor and Shadrich is a good catch, but that probably won't happen at QI.

The dog-fox encounter is related to "reeds". That's the landscape Brienne travels through with Meribald when that fox crosses their paths. The mention of reeds occurs two sentences after. Anyway, it's "marsh" country, similar to a tamer Neck.

[sweetsunray]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf Great summary

[sweetsunray]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf

And we also have a fool connection with Sandor... He expected Sansa to sing him a song of Jonquil and her Florian.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf congratulations! Great job with your essay!

As mentioned above HR tended to appear in the right place in the right time when something gamechanging is about to happen, f.e. the HH tourney, saving Ned at the ToJ. The same do his kids while helping Bran and Rickon.

If the parallel with D&E would develop further than something important should be unveiled during or after the tourney, probably exposing the LF and his plans.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

Thank you guys.  All men are fools and all men are knights where women are concerned.  Can't wait til this unkiss comes back around 

If there's another parallel with that tourney, the Blackfyre Rebellion plot was exposed and thwarted, Butterwell was attained, and Whitewalls was destroyed.  If we are headed toward a second Long Night, we are also in store for cataclysmic events as sweet theorizes.  (I'm actually hoping a few people make it through).  I love Yohn Royce, Myranda and Mya and I've even grown to appreciate SR, though it may be House Arryn is going extinct.  I think HR's reappearance in the story would be appropriate at this time now that we're gearing up for the second Long Night and greenseers seem to have the knowledge to survive it (maybe).  This also (hopefully) places Sansa in position to learn about her own warging powers, which is very exciting.  

I did start listening to @LmL 's podcast and now I'm seeing those damn moon meteors everywhere -- even in that spoonful of porridge and chamber pot SR flings at Colemon lol.   

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@Blue-Eyed Wolf congratulations! Great job with your essay!

As mentioned above HR tended to appear in the right place in the right time when something gamechanging is about to happen, f.e. the HH tourney, saving Ned at the ToJ. The same do his kids while helping Bran and Rickon.

If the parallel with D&E would develop further than something important should be unveiled during or after the tourney, probably exposing the LF and his plans.

There is another Dunk-tourney link, the song "Off to Gulltown". We don't know the full lyrics, only 3 lines (that foxy-faced Tom O'Seven sings before coming upon Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie in aSoS)

Quote

Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho. I’ll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho.I’ll make her my love and we’ll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho.

 

Ser Arlan, the hedge knight who takes on Dunk as a squire (and dies), sings it on their way to the Ashford Tourney, but changes the lyrics into "Off to Ashford".  One of Ser Arlan's horses is called "Chestnut" (not a courser thought, but a 'stot', aka inferior horse). When Ser Arlan dies, Dunk carries on by himself pretending to a be knight and meet Egg (with shaved head). The initial trouble at the Tourney occurs when Dunk attempts to enter the lists but cannot provide evidence of his knighthood. Note how Shadrich explicitly states he's not a tourney knight. He cannot prove he's a knight. The same would be true for the other 2 if they are who we think they are. EB washed onto QI naked (so without papers), and Sandor refused to be knighted.

@Blue-Eyed Wolf There is an error in your gathered summary and essay to make your point. Byron is mentioned in the sample chapter, in passing.

Spoiler

He dances with Alayne, as does Morgarth and Shadrich:

"You're very kind," she said, as he led her to the floor.

He was her first partner of the evening, but far from the last. Just as Petyr had promised, the young knights flocked around her, vying for her favor. After Ben came Andrew Tollett, handsome Ser Byron, red-nosed Ser Morgarth, and Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse.

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@sweetsunray Yes that song is really appropriate here since "Alayne" is supposed to hail from Gulltown as well.  The Ashford tourney is also significant as the source of that theory of the order of Sansa's suitors:  Baratheon, Tyrell, Lannister, Hardyng, and Targaryen.  In all these matches, there is something false or fraudulent.  Joffrey is not the rightful king as he is a bastard.  Willas Tyrell was only passingly mentioned, nothing official and he hadn't given his consent, yet Sansa is supposed to trust the Tyrells blindly on this.  Tyrion was a forced marriage.  Hardyng betrothal is a scheme in itself and this time "Alayne" is the fraudulent one.  That leaves a Targaryen, who is probably a Blackfyre.  What happens last at the tourney is that it's ending is upset by Dunk, who wins in trial by combat.  

And thanks for that last catch, I'll amend my post  

     

[Ibbison from Ibben]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Of course... But you don't need a whole "weirwood tree" scene and buryng the guy beneath one to make that clear - we already know this by Nimble Dick telling Brienne with his histories of Cracklaw Point. It's the weirwood scene itself that stands out to me.

Shadrich: kissed by fire + red eyed white mouse. The mouse links to HH, red eyes to greenseeing or greensight, kissed by fire is weirwood tree

What does a weirwood look like? White stem with red fiery leaves. In other passages, of weirwood trees, those red leaves are sometimes described as if on fire. Not to mention that Nimble Dick was killed by a morningstar, aka heralding dawn.

....

 

Ser Shadrich isn't kissed by fire. His hair is orange, not red. Weirwoods are not linked to fire. They are sacred to the CotF, who Sing the Song of Earth. Their red leaves and red sap are linked to blood, not fire. (Trees in general hate fire.) The GoHH does not see visions in flames - she gets them from weirwoods. We saw a BwB hideout at the end of AFfC, and there was no sign of contact with crannogmen. 

Melisandre has red eyes, and she isn't a greenseer. Half of House Connington's sigil is a white griffin with a red eye, and there is no known link to BR or the Old Gods.

If you are going to convince me, this is the type of stuff you have to avoid. 

If HR went to the trouble to disguise himself so he could search for Sansa, why would he inhibit his freedom by taking up a job guarding a merchant?

Here's what I consider a better alternative.

What we see from Ser Shadrich is outright deception from the outset. He calls himself "The Mad Mouse", which implies a combination of reckless self-endangerment mixed with harmlessness. Ser Shadrich exhibits neither trait. He is a smallish man, but he seems very shrewd, very clever, and very competent. He tracks down his prey rather easily. The sigil is the deception, meant to encourage people to underestimate him. He is, as his looks imply, a fox - a smallish but highly competent hunter, noted for slyness and trickery. Brienne is quite right not to trust him.

I think you've been fooled by a fooler.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The dog-fox encounter is related to "reeds". That's the landscape Brienne travels through with Meribald when that fox crosses their paths. The mention of reeds occurs two sentences after. Anyway, it's "marsh" country, similar to a tamer Neck.

No, it is not. The reeds mentioned "two sentences after" were part of a new paragraph, indicating a new thought. People lived amongst the reeds.

The land Brienne and Co. traveled after leaving Maidenpool is described as sand dunes and salt marshes, with "no trees for leagues around, just sea and sky and sand." That doesn't sound much like the Neck to me, where ...

ASoS, Bran III

 

Quote

 

"There are trees in the Neck that stand twice as tall as this," her brother reminded her.

"Aye, but they have other trees around them just as high," said Meera. "The world presses close in the Neck, and the sky is so much smaller.

 

 

I don't want to hound you; you've done a lot of great work that I admire. But you're being quite sloppy on this one, IMO. This whole theory is full of sloppy connections.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Ser Shadrich isn't kissed by fire. His hair is orange, not red.

Copper, ginger, carrot, auburn are all referred to as "red-heads", though the color is not actually "red", but some hue of "orange", and these people are called "kissed-by-fire", which fits since fire is only actually "red" when the fire is almost out and only charcoal glows red. Flames are from blonde-yellow to bright orange. The followers of rh'llor wear robes of red, orange and yellow.

The burning gods cast a pretty light, wreathed in their robes of shifting flame, red and orange and yellow. (aCoK, Davos I)

For a moment she thought the town was full of lantern bugs.  Then she realized they were men with torches, galloping between the houses.  She saw a roof go up, flames licking at the belly of the night with hot orange tongues as the thatch caught.  Another followed, and then another, and soon there were fires blazing everywhere.   (aCoK, Arya)

The acolytes were clad in robes of pale yellow and bright orange, priests and priestesses in red. ... [snip]... He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple’s doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. “The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light’s sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple.”

Fire knights. “And how many fingers does this hand have, pray?” (aDwD, Tyrion, Benerro scene)

 

1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Weirwoods are not linked to fire.

Euhm, they are. @LmL has written several essays about it, including quotes of the red leaves being compared to flames. But BR's eye for example is compared to a glowing coal in a tangle of roots. Beric is the same thing: lightning lord (fire) seated on a weirwood root throne. Grey King stole fire from the gods, seated on a petrified weirwood throne. Fire + weirwood. Fire + First Men worshiping Old Gods is the potent combo. And no, I'm not saying "burn the trees".

Jon with Qhorin, last fire, before being caught: Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the flames. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to whirl and spin in their glowing gowns of yellow, red, and orange.

(I'm looking for the quotes where the leaves of a weirwood tree are compared to flames)

1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

The GoHH does not see visions in flames - she gets them from weirwoods.

I did not say anything about GoHH. But Bran sees stuff in the flames.

Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes.

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"  (aDwD, Bran III)

 

The visions that are explicitly described to us in Bran's last chapter of aDwD do not come to him while he's seated on a weirwood throne, but while he's seated on his bed, looking into flames. And yet check out from which angle Bran sees the vision: he's looking down upon his father's bowed head praying before the weirwood. In other words, when Bran looks into the flames, he sees events as if he is in the weirwood leaves, or is one of the weirwood leaves. Like Shagwell sticking his head out of the weirwood sappling tree and dropping a morningstar onto Nimble Dick, like little grey Giant (Bedywick), climbing the weirwood tree of Whitetree as far as the leaves and scouting the area.

 

(Little shout out to @LmL : pretty sure you'll like the above observation for your weirwood compendium essays)

The sap is the blood, the stem are the bones, the red leaves are fire. The weirwood does not need to be set on fire, since the foliage = fire/flames already. Fire magic is already part of weirwood magic.

ETA: Here is the difference between GoHH and Bran. GoHH has the greensight like Jojen has (dreams), but they are not greenseers. Bran is a greenseer. You can betcha that you'd have greenseers at the Gods Eye island too. And when they look in the flames....

 

1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Melisandre has red eyes, and she isn't a greenseer. Half of House Connington's sigil is a white griffin with a red eye, and there is no known link to BR or the Old Gods.

Mel has red eyes, but is not albino. Why are you so sure there is no link to the Old Gods for the griffins hystorically? The Stormlands were Dondarrion's Durandon's kingdom once, and wasn't Dondarrion Durandon a first man? While this doesn't say anything about the Griffins directly, their sigil colors would indeed indicate there is connection to weirwoods and First Men worshiping Old Gods for them.

The weirwood tree itself is albino: bone-white stem, red crown of flame-like fiery-hand leaves, that are a thousand "eyes" (see quoted scene of Bran), and red-blood eyes.

If you have a character that shows both ties to flames/fire combined with weirwood colors, you are looking at a potent character, rooted in weirwood magic, which includes fire magic. FM bones, FM blood, and the crown set aflame (enlightened).

[sweetsunray]

35 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

No, it is not. The reeds mentioned "two sentences after" were part of a new paragraph, indicating a new thought. People lived amongst the reeds.

The land Brienne and Co. traveled after leaving Maidenpool is described as sand dunes and salt marshes, with "no trees for leagues around, just sea and sky and sand." That doesn't sound much like the Neck to me, where ...

ASoS, Bran III

 

 

I don't want to hound you; you've done a lot of great work that I admire. But you're being quite sloppy on this one, IMO. This whole theory is full of sloppy connections.

Here's the full quote. Before the "reeds" we have "frogs", which is the insulting name people have for crannogmen.

 

Quote

 

They crossed a dozen slow-flowing streams alive with frogs and crickets, watched terns floating high above the bay, heard the sandpipers calling from amongst the dunes. Once a fox crossed their path, and set Meribald's dog to barking wildly.

And there were people too. Some lived amongst the reeds in houses built of mud and straw, whilst others fished the bay in leather coracles and built their homes on rickety wooden stilts above the dunes. (aFfC, Brienne

 

 

You are correct that parts of the Neck is forested area, like Crawklaw Point is a forested area. But let's check out what Theon rides through.

 

Quote

 

East of the road lay a bleak and barren shore and a cold salt sea, to the west the swamps and bogs of the Neck, infested with serpents, lizard lions, and bog devils with their poisoned arrows.

...[snip]...

The swampy ground beyond the causeway was impassable, an endless morass of suckholes, quicksands, and glistening green swards that looked solid to the unwary eye but turned to water the instant you trod upon them, the whole of it infested with venomous serpents and poisonous flowers and monstrous lizard lions with teeth like daggers. Just as dangerous were its people, seldom seen but always lurking, the swamp-dwellers, the frog-eaters, the mud-men. Fenn and Reed, Peat and Boggs, Cray and Quagg, Greengood and Blackmyre, those were the sorts of names they gave themselves. The ironborn called them all bog devils. (aDwD, Reek II)

 

Unfortunately for your attempt to misrepresent the full portrayal of the Neck we get no trees mentioned, but it's still Neck area. Notice how "east" are the barren shores, while west are the deeper swamps and bogs (where we would have trees eventually furhter west).

Cracklaw Point bog, swamp and forested area is west of Maidenpool. The reed-dune coastal area that leads to QI, is east of Maidenpool. Both areas that Brienne journeys through mirror both areas of the Neck.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Quote

Euhm, they are. @LmL has written several essays about it, including quotes of the red leaves being compared to flames. But BR's eye for example is compared to a glowing coal in a tangle of roots. Beric is the same thing: lightning lord (fire) seated on a weirwood root throne. Grey King stole fire from the gods, seated on a petrified weirwood throne. Fire + weirwood. Fire + First Men worshiping Old Gods is the potent combo. And no, I'm not saying "burn the trees".

I'm aware there are some threads like this, but they're crackpot, or flat out wrong. Thoros' powers are in no way linked to the Old Gods. He displayed them long before Beric ever sat on that weirwood throne. Thoros' powers don't work atop High Heart, precisely because the Old Gods are still powerful there.

ASoS, Arya VIII

Quote

"Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists."

That paragraph refutes quite a bit of bad theorizing.

Here's the bit about the Grey King from TWoIaF p.178

Quote

The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.

The demon tree Ygg is an obvious reference to a weirwood (and Yggdrasil), and the Grey King who harnessed fire was opposed to it. Likewise, the petrified weirwood pillars of the Grey King's hall are dead weirwoods.

Quote

I did not say anything about GoHH. But Bran sees stuff in the flames.

The GiHH bit must have been from somebody else's post. My appologies. But Bran most certainly does not see visions in fire. Your own quote below proves it.

Quote

 

Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes.

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"  (aDwD, Bran III)

 

The visions that are explicitly described to us in Bran's last chapter of aDwD do not come to him while he's seated on a weirwood throne, but while he's seated on his bed, looking into flames. And yet check out from which angle Bran sees the vision: he's looking down upon his father's bowed head praying before the weirwood. In other words, when Bran looks into the flames, he sees events as if he is in the weirwood leaves, or is one of the weirwood leaves. Like Shagwell sticking his head out of the weirwood sappling tree and dropping a morningstar onto Niimble Dick, like little grey Giant (Bedywick), climbing the weirwood tree of Whitetree as far as the leaves and scouting the area.

 

Bran's visions here have nothing to do with the fire. He closes his eyes (thereby ceasing to see the fire), falls asleep and unconsciously wargs the tree, just as he often wargs Summer in his sleep. Bran's visions also have nothing to do with the weirwood throne. After he eats the weirwood paste, he can warg the tree, and just like when he wargs Summer, he doesn't need to be in contact with the tree. And Bran explicitly states that he is looking through the eyes of the heart tree.

ADwD, Bran III

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I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

The Earth Singers Bran stays with often live in complete darkness. BR tells Bran

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"Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong." "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

There's no associations with fire or light here.

If you can actually find some quotes linking weirwood leaves to fire, I'll look at them. Most like they are simply coincidental.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Bran's visions here have nothing to do with the fire. He closes his eyes (thereby ceasing to see the fire) and falls asleep. Bran's visions also have nothing to do with the weirwood throne. After he eats the weirwood paste, he can warg the tree, and just like when he wargs Summer, he doesn't need to be in contact with the tree. And Bran explicitly states that he is looking through the eyes of the heart tree.

Where does it say he closes his eyes or falls asleep. It just says that he lookes into the flames and then he sees his father. It appears to be a dream behind closed eyes, but it's not stated that's what happened. That's just you thinking he closed his eyes, fell asleep and dreams.

What are the "red eyes"? They are the leaves. We get an indication of the angle Bran is looking at his father. He's describing his father's crown, the top of Ned's head. Bran says he's looking "down". The only way that fits is if he's in the foliage area of the tree. The red leaves = eyes. When Bran thinks I'm looking through the red eyes, you are thinking the carved faces with eyes. But even a weirwood tree with no facial carving has red eyes, with the leaves, and greenseers can look through them. And anytime we see a scene of a character in a weirwood tree scene, that's exactly where these character (including ravens) are: in the foliage, amongst the leaves. Greenseers don't look through the carved eyes, but the red leaves (and a weirwood is an evergreen).

Regarding GoHH's paragraph that you quoted.

16 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

"Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists."

What are the weirwoods on the hill? Stumps. There are no leaves. That's why Thoros can't see anything in the flames there. There's still power in them. But you can't see anything in the flames or the leaves from them.

And your darkness quote is beside the point. Of course roots are in darkness. Leaves are not though. Leaves are very much related to light. They catch the light and transform it chemically into matter. It's called photosynthesis. Some trees can have leaves with little light. But there are no leaves in darkness. The roots though don't need light to grow. The transformed light caught by the leaves gets sent to the roots and stored there as sugars, and so they grow. The roots suck up the water and the minerals in the soil, minerals that come from decaying organic matter.

Yes, I know the petrified weirwood are dead trees. But what happens if you put dead trees on fire? (note not saying living trees) They come back alive for a moment.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

 

Unfortunately for your attempt to misrepresent the full portrayal of the Neck we get no trees mentioned, but it's still Neck area. Notice how "east" are the barren shores, while west are the deeper swamps and bogs (where we would have trees eventually furhter west).

Cracklaw Point bog, swamp and forested area is west of Maidenpool. The reed-dune coastal area that leads to QI, is east of Maidenpool. Both areas that Brienne journeys through mirror both areas of the Neck.

 

This is a description of Moat Cailin, at the very edge of the Neck, perhaps even the gateway to the Neck. We see neither reeds or Reeds there. But let's see what the Neck is really like

AGoT, Sansa I

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They had been twelve days crossing the Neck, rumbling down a crooked causeway through an endless black bog, and she had hated every moment of it. The air had been damp and clammy, the causeway so narrow they could not even make proper camp at night, they had to stop right on the kingsroad. Dense thickets of half-drowned trees pressed close around them, branches dripping with curtains of pale fungus. Huge flowers bloomed in the mud and floated on pools of stagnant water, but if you were stupid enough to leave the causeway to pluck them, there were quicksands waiting to suck you down, and snakes watching from the trees, and lizard-lions floating half-submerged in the water, like black logs with eyes and teeth.

Here's the forested part of Craclclaw Point

AFfC, Brienne IV

 

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Lord Brune's castle dwindled at their backs, and soon was lost to sight. Sentinels and soldier pines rose all around them, towering green-clad spears thrusting toward the sky. The forest floor was a bed of fallen needles as thick as a castle wall, littered with pinecones. The hooves of their horses seemed to make no sound. It rained a bit, stopped for a time, then started once again, but amongst the pines they scarce felt a drop.

The going was much slower in the woods. Brienne prodded her mare through the green gloom, weaving in and out amongst the trees. It would be very easy to get lost here, she realized. Every way she looked appeared the same. The very air seemed grey and green and still. Pine boughs scratched against her arms and scraped noisily against her newly painted shield. The eerie stillness grated on her more with every passing hour.

 

 

and more

 

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They made camp early that night, after they came down a hill and found themselves on the edge of a glistening green bog. In the grey-green light, the ground ahead looked solid enough, but when they'd ridden out it had swallowed their horses up to their withers. They had to turn and fight their way back onto more solid footing. "It's no matter," Crabb assured them. "We'll go back up the hill and come down another way."

The next day was the same. They rode through pines and bogs, under dark skies and intermittent rain, past sinkholes and caves and the ruins of ancient strongholds whose stones were blanketed in moss. Every heap of stones had a story, and Nimble Dick told them all. To hear him tell it, the men of Crackclaw Point had watered their pine trees with blood. Brienne's patience soon began to fray. "How much longer?" she demanded finally. "We must have seen every tree in Crackclaw Point by now."

 

 

Neither the pine forest nor the sand dune/salt marsh area seem to bear any resemblance to the swamp. Perhaps we must agree to differ. But if you insist on trying to infer a connection between the salt marsh and Howland Reed, who lives in the heart of the Neck, I maintain the right to reject that connection and the parts of your theory that rely on it, and I think I've made a better case.

 

 

[Ibbison from Ibben]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Where does it say he closes his eyes or falls asleep. It just says that he lookes into the flames and then he sees his father. It appears to be a dream behind closed eyes, but it's not stated that's what happened. That's just you thinking he closed his eyes, fell asleep and dreams.

"He didn't remember closing his eyes"  naturally implies that he later woke and realized he had closed them.  Resorting to quibbles doesn't help your case.

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What are the "red eyes"? They are the leaves. We get an indication of the angle Bran is looking at his father. He's describing his father's crown, the top of Ned's head. Bran says he's looking "down". The only way that fits is if he's in the foliage area of the tree. The red leaves = eyes. When Bran thinks I'm looking through the red eyes, you are thinking the carved faces with eyes. But even a weirwood tree with no facial carving has red eyes, with the leaves, and greenseers can look through them. And anytime we see a scene of a character in a weirwood tree scene, that's exactly where these character (including ravens) are: in the foliage, amongst the leaves. Greenseers don't look through the carved eyes, but the red leaves (and a weirwood is an evergreen).

Bran says eyes. By eyes, he, a novice greenseer, obviously means the eyes carved in the trunk of the tree. Bran sees the top of Ned's head when Ned's head is bowed. Duh. [ETA - I'm fixing this line because I was working from your quote instead of the text. Bran never describes the crown of Ned's head. The only thing the text implies is that Ned's bowed head is below the eye level Bran is using.] And it is explicitly stated in the texts that the CotF carved faces in the trees so the greenseers could see through them. That what makes a weirwood into a heart tree.

ADwD, Bran III

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The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use …

Carved eyes, not leaves.

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Regarding GoHH's paragraph that you quoted.

What are the weirwoods on the hill? Stumps. There are no leaves. That's why Thoros can't see anything in the flames there. There's still power in them. But you can't see anything in the flames or the leaves from them.

 

You ignored the quote. The GoHH said nothing about missing leaves. She said that Thoros, a fire-scryer and follower of R'hllor (pink priest) cannot use his powers atop High Heart because the Old Gods are still strong there.

The theory on the link between fire and the Old Gods is clearly refuted.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well written and thought out Bemused as usual.  I really like the concept that Shadrick, Morgath, and Byron are together, and that Ilyfer and Longbough were not what they seemed.

I'm less inclined to believe in any specific identities for any of them.  Obviously the more specific you get with anything the less likely it is to be true.  I do not think we have met HR yet, and I think it is unlikely he would be acting as Shadrich is.  

If Howland knows his children are alive then he would likely know Bran and Rickon are/were alive(the potential were is only for Rickon not Bran).  In that case he is more likely to be working in/with forces in the north to unseat the Boltons.

If he thinks they are all dead, then that makes sense that he would potentially look for Sansa, but it would also seem to invalidate any connection to BR.

Howland must have been in the Neck at least until a little while after the Red Wedding as Robb had expected him to guard the Neck and then to show his forces the way through.  There's also the fact that he sent both his children out into a dangerous situation, who does he have to leave as an heir if he go's out on a similarly dangerous mission?  I also believe Howlands real purpose is for information, mainly about Jon so that kind of wastes him in the Vale with Sansa.  Last is that I just don't see what he could reasonably expect to accomplish.  What can 1 man do about it anyway, so why go out on such a seemingly useless mission?

I also can't get on board with EB=Morgath.  I just don't see the motive, the guy has been on his island all this time, if he wanted wealth he could've taken the rubies that washed up, if he's a Targ loyalist he is heading in the wrong direction, if he wants to do good he knows he was doing it on the island with his healing, and last, why wouldn't Sandor be the 1 to go, or at least be with him?( a glamour is not an acceptable answer to this question, there's no evidence that even Howland could do that)