SER SHADRICH, HIS ALLIES AND ADVERSARIES.. (Morgarth, Byron, Creighton, Illifer)

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@sweetsunray Brienne POV in AFFC is a gift that keeps on giving!  Look at this:  

Stranger (black) is renamed Driftwood.  We've already seen how driftwood washes up on the QI, but then the pieces are "polished till they shone a deep gold" and they are transformed into something new like furniture.  Like turning Stranger from black to gold or blonde Driftwood!  And Driftwood is a "handsome beast."  Underneath the blonde hair is a missing ear!  So we got a Stranger/Sandor turned into Driftwood/Byron the beautiful.  Also helps that driftwood is dead like old bones.      

Nice!

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@sweetsunray

I just stumbled upon an interesting bit that could relate to Howland Reed as fox-faced Ser Shadrich:  

During the middle ages, stories featuring Reynard the Fox were extremely popular throughout Europe.  So popular in fact, renard came to replace the old French word for fox.  Reynard is an anthropomorphic fox character and trickster figure whose stories usually involve him decieving or cunningly escaping other anthropomorphic animal characters.  His character was often used in parodies of medieval courtly love and chanson de geste, or songs of heroic deeds (think Shadrich's meeting Brienne on her hapless quest to rescue Sansa) as well as satire of political and religious institutions.  I would bet anything GRRM is familiar with this.   

One such character he tricks is Bruin the Bear (Lothor Brune?), where he steals his honey (calls back to Bear and the Maiden Fair) or butter depending on the telling.  Basically, Reynard comes to live with Bruin (at the Gates of the Moon?) and pretends to leave to attend a christening.  He's really going to sneak back into the house to eat some honey.  When Bruin asks him what the baby's christened name was, he replies "Just Begun."  A second time he says he needs to attend a christening, he does the same thing and tells Bruin the baby's name was "Half-Eaten."  This same scenario happens a third time with the baby's name being "All Gone," at which point Bruin realizes his honey (as a symbol of Sansa that he was supposed to be guarding).  This clever word play and double-meaning is a feature of the way Ser Shadrich speaks.

How Reynard can relate to Howland Reed is very interesting.  The name Reynard is theorized to have old Germanic man's name Reginhard.  The word regin meaning "divine powers of the Old Germanic religion" plus hard meaning "made hard by the Gods."  It could also mean regin + harti or "strong cousel," denoting someone wise and cleaver.

Reynard's castle home is called Maleperduis, which is described as having hidden tunnels, entrances and exits, and confusing pathways to elude his enemies from finding him.  Sound a lot like Greywater Watch, the castle no one can find if you aren't a crannog? 

I gotta get to work now and see if I can find more later, but I got a kick out of this.   

[sweetsunray]

29 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@sweetsunray

I just stumbled upon an interesting bit that could relate to Howland Reed as fox-faced Ser Shadrich:  

During the middle ages, stories featuring Reynard the Fox were extremely popular throughout Europe.  So popular in fact, renard came to replace the old French word for fox.  Reynard is an anthropomorphic fox character and trickster figure whose stories usually involve him decieving or cunningly escaping other anthropomorphic animal characters.  His character was often used in parodies of medieval courtly love and chanson de geste, or songs of heroic deeds (think Shadrich's meeting Brienne on her hapless quest to rescue Sansa) as well as satire of political and religious institutions.  I would bet anything GRRM is familiar with this.   

One such character he tricks is Bruin the Bear (Lothor Brune?), where he steals his honey (calls back to Bear and the Maiden Fair) or butter depending on the telling.  Basically, Reynard comes to live with Bruin (at the Gates of the Moon?) and pretends to leave to attend a christening.  He's really going to sneak back into the house to eat some honey.  When Bruin asks him what the baby's christened name was, he replies "Just Begun."  A second time he says he needs to attend a christening, he does the same thing and tells Bruin the baby's name was "Half-Eaten."  This same scenario happens a third time with the baby's name being "All Gone," at which point Bruin realizes his honey (as a symbol of Sansa that he was supposed to be guarding).  This clever word play and double-meaning is a feature of the way Ser Shadrich speaks.

How Reynard can relate to Howland Reed is very interesting.  The name Reynard is theorized to have old Germanic man's name Reginhard.  The word regin meaning "divine powers of the Old Germanic religion" plus hard meaning "made hard by the Gods."  It could also mean regin + harti or "strong cousel," denoting someone wise and cleaver.

Reynard's castle home is called Maleperduis, which is described as having hidden tunnels, entrances and exits, and confusing pathways to elude his enemies from finding him.  Sound a lot like Greywater Watch, the castle no one can find if you aren't a crannog? 

I gotta get to work now and see if I can find more later, but I got a kick out of this.   

Very Nice! Yes, I know him as "Van de Vos Reynaerd". The tales were very popular in Flanders as well. It was even obligated literature in HS for Dutch and I once did pen drawings about the story of Reynaerd de Vos and Bruin de Beer. It's the middle age equivalent of Chaucer and Beowulf in English. Quite a cruel trickster fox too - he eats and murders a lot of the animals in the kingdom. And the lion king and queen are proud fools and easily tricked. One issue, but possible can be ignore - his biggest enemy is the wolf Ysengrim.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

One issue, but possible can be ignore - his biggest enemy is the wolf Ysengrim.

Now that I had more time to look at Ysengrim, I would say one possibility is that Reed will have an adversarial relationship with Sandor, the renewed wolf transformed from a dog.  Remember Dog pissing on the reeds?  Or "Piss on that, Reed!"  Ysengrim is depicted as a monk who is not exactly holy.  While the original is supposed to represent hypocritical clergy, in a loose way it fits as Sandor is never going to live a true monastic life on the QI. He's likely tempered but not tamed.  I could see their main point of contention being their opinions on Sansa's path after escaping the Vale, each having their own agendas.  Sorcerer trickster types wouldn't necessarily trustworthy even if Reed could provide the means of her rescue.  Afterall, Meera and Jojen took Bran to the Three-Eyed Raven, rather than a Stark bannerman. They likely are more strange bedfellows rather than true allies.   

[Luddagain]

Someone may have already posted this, but I assume Longbough is is the same manner as Longwaters ie the descendent legitimately of someone called Bough.  I wonder whether when their were smaller kingdoms bastards took other names. I suspect that bastards called Bough might come from one of the families associated with trees. Oakheart, Fossoway, Blackwood, Greenwood etc.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Apologies if I'm rehashing anything - there's no way I'm reading all half a jillion words in this thread - but I wanted to chime in with a couple of things.

1. If Brienne's journey is full of important people met on the way, then is the merchant someone important?

"Hibald is as niggardly as he is fearful. And he is very fearful."

Why? It's dangerous abroad at the moment, sure, but is there something more?

2. I love the idea that Ser Byron's kiss is a signal that confirms she's Sansa. But that would mean Ser Byron was someone who'd know Sansa on sight. Aside from the Hound, were there any other compelling suggestions?

3. I forget who said it, but I like this:

Quote

What we see from Ser Shadrich is outright deception from the outset. He calls himself "The Mad Mouse", which implies a combination of reckless self-endangerment mixed with harmlessness. Ser Shadrich exhibits neither trait. He is a smallish man, but he seems very shrewd, very clever, and very competent. He tracks down his prey rather easily. The sigil is the deception, meant to encourage people to underestimate him. He is, as his looks imply, a fox - a smallish but highly competent hunter, noted for slyness and trickery. Brienne is quite right not to trust him.

We've seen the same technique used in The Mystery Knight. (The fella with the snail on his shield.) Note that this does not invalidate the idea that Ser Shadrich is Howland Reed, nor does it mean Brienne shouldn't trust him. But posing as something unthreatening might be a great way for him - whoever he is - to preemptively disarm his opponents in the spying game. And it's fitting, because Littlefinger does pretty much the exact same thing.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Oh, and I googled Hibald and got this. I'll quote the interesting part:

Quote

In 679, Osthryth, queen of Mercia, sought to move the remains of her uncle, St Oswald, to Bardney [where Hybald was the abbot], but the monks refused to accept the body because Oswald, as king of Northumbria, had once conquered [the kingdom of] Lindsey [where Bardney is]. The remains were locked outside the abbey but the appearance of a mysterious beam of light, that night, led the monks to reconsider.

I found that interesting given that Ned's bones are still floating around the Riverlands somewhere.

What if Hallis Mollen and the Silent Sisters transferred custody of them to Howland Reed, who arranged for them to be shipped north under the cover of commerce?

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

2. I love the idea that Ser Byron's kiss is a signal that confirms she's Sansa. But that would mean Ser Byron was someone who'd know Sansa on sight. Aside from the Hound, were there any other compelling suggestions?

Well, there's Podrick, but we know exactly where he is.  Cross him off.  I've tried to find anyone else it could plausibly be.  Someone with means, motive, and opportunity to be on Team Shadrich.  Timett of of Timett would know her and he is back with his clan in the Mountains of the Moon, but there's no plausible reason why Shadrich would even know about Timett and journey (risking getting killed by any nmumber of clans) there to find and meet him.  If Shadrich is trailing Brienne, his path takes him right to the QI to the Elder Brother and Sandor.  And Sandor sure as hell isn't going to help a bad guy out for a ransom.  

I have to be off to work now, but I'll get back to the rest later on today

 

[Isobel Harper]

Didn't someone speculate upthread that Byron might be Harry Rivers, who supposedly died during the war in the Riverlands?  Their appearances match.  Harry was described as "fair-haired and comely."  

ETA: Or he could be one of Stannis's former knights who bent the knee after the BotB.  Sansa is present in the throne room (she's mentioned going to the front of the crowd in this chapter, so quite visible to anyone approaching the throne) when honors are given and captives are made to bend the knee to Joffrey.  She doesn't take note of him, but he may remember her. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shadrich (supposedly) support Stannis at one time?  Either way, as Brienne travels through the Crownlands and into the Riverlands, it seems many or most of the knights she meets are former Stannis supporters.  It would be quite likely that Byron was also a former Stannis supporter. 

[thereticent]

Re: Byron... Tyrek, maybe? I'm unclear on Byron's age, but Tyrek would be 15 at this point. Surely not a knight, but this is all presumably a deception.

I also wanted to mention a thought on Saltpans. One meaning to the name is literally salt-bread, so I wonder if it relates symbolically to guest right or, by extension, to the Red Wedding. At both the RW and the raid on Saltpans we have blood shed by a "beast in human skin" (per Mariya Frey on Rorge misidentified as the Hound, and applies well to old Humanskin Bolton). Obviously, at the wedding Lord Frey not only allowed the atrocity but facilitated it. But Ser Cox of Saltpans did, at least in EB's eyes, have a duty to defend his smallfolk, much as Frey had a duty to protect his guests.

[deja vu]

10 minutes ago, thereticent said:

Re: Byron... Tyrek, maybe? I'm unclear on Byron's age, but Tyrek would be 15 at this point. Surely not a knight, but this is all presumably a deception.

Byron = Tyrek? I was wondering the same thing. As Joffrey's betrothed, there are many, many people who attended court in KL who would have seen Sansa often. She wouldn't know the vast majority of them.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

On 3/25/2017 at 7:08 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

1. If Brienne's journey is full of important people met on the way, then is the merchant someone important?

"Hibald is as niggardly as he is fearful. And he is very fearful."

Why? It's dangerous abroad at the moment, sure, but is there something more?

Sorry it took so long to get back to this.  I did do something thinking about Hibald.  I'm no expert on the topic of Ned's bones, so I can't really say.  There is possibly a play on the names Hibald and Meribald, but I haven't quite worked it out.  This is what we know of the merchant, Hibald:  he rides a dappled grey mare, he has 6 servants with him, 4 are pulling the wagon.  He carries a crossbow, he's fearful, suspicious, extremely cheap.  He's on his way to Duskendale, probably just to sell his goods since it still seems like a bustling town even with the war.  He'll only pay for one room at the old stone bridge inn, and only meat and ale for himself and Ser Shadrich.  His servants can sleep in the stables with only "bread and drippings."   

Meribald is a completely different man.  He walks the roads around the riverlands along side his animal companions, the donkey and Dog.  The walking is supposed to be his penance for using his position as a septon in his youth to convince young women to sleep with him.  He is very generous to the smallfolk.  He trades food and shelter for ministering to them to those that can give.  He gives away food to the hungry and the orphaned, even a highly-valued luxury like oranges.  He calls the donkey his faithful servant, but Dog is more of an equal.  He gives him two bites of food for every one for himself.  He was a soldier in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.  He's not really fearful or suspicious of strangers, but he has a healthy wariness of broken men.  I'm just wondering if these two were set up to be inversions of each other.

On 3/25/2017 at 7:08 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

We've seen the same technique used in The Mystery Knight. (The fella with the snail on his shield.) Note that this does not invalidate the idea that Ser Shadrich is Howland Reed, nor does it mean Brienne shouldn't trust him. But posing as something unthreatening might be a great way for him - whoever he is - to preemptively disarm his opponents in the spying game. And it's fitting, because Littlefinger does pretty much the exact same thing.

Exactly.  Shadrich in what little we know, has demonstrated he's very effective at tracking and getting close to his target.  He's been able to accomplish what many bounty hunters couldn't.  The fact that we find him next sitting in Petyr's solar drinking with him is proof this guy found the best lead to get to Sansa.  I still sticking by that this source of info had to be Sandor, because Sandor himself had the idea to go to the Eyrie with Arya.  On the QI, they have access to ravens where they would have heard about the marriage of Littlefinger to Lysa Arryn and her very sudden death about a month or so later.  That's very suspicious (especially since Sandor knows LF betrayed Ned and participated in his arrest), even if they have no knowledge at that point of Alayne Stone.  They could have also heard of the upcoming marriage of Lionel Corbray in Gulltown (a large enough affair that the Lord Protector and several Vale lords would be attending).  They meet up with LF there and get themselves hired.  Even if they were in this just for the ransom, that's some pretty great deception to fool LF to his face and have them invited to spend several hours in his chambers drinking.  That shows LF is very relaxed around them.  

The thing about Brienne's perception of people is that it's highly suspect because her story arc demonstrates she's not good at sussing out people's intententions.  She's such a straight-forward and honest person, she regards all dubiousness or slyness in people as automatically bad.  It's not suprising considering how she'd always been the butt of cruel jokes.  She takes Creighton's bravado as a little silly, but not dishonest because it doesn't seem like he's hiding something.  She only initially considers them suspicious based solely on their status as hedgeknights and what she's heard about hedgeknights.  She very quickly starts to think of them as "decent" even though they are shady as hell.  Maybe not outright murderous like Rorge and Biter, but Shadrich sees very quickly she's being played.  She may be the true knight on a quest, but she is absolutely wrong for the job.  It's just on more continuation of that theme of doves vs. ravens.  Ravens aren't pretty, but they're clever and get the job done.  

On 3/25/2017 at 9:34 AM, Isobel Harper said:

Didn't someone speculate upthread that Byron might be Harry Rivers, who supposedly died during the war in the Riverlands?  Their appearances match.  Harry was described as "fair-haired and comely."  

The only other thing is Byron is tall and has long hair past his shoulders.  I don't think we can just rely on the fair-haired and comely without some other clue, which I'm sure George would probably give us.  I don't think we really have a reason to doubt Harry is dead.  The BwB seem certain of it and list the Bastard of Bracken as one of the charges leveled at Sandor for the crime of being a Clegane.  They probably have first hand or very reliable knowledge of his death by Lannisters, specifically Gregor Clegane.  But even if he was miraculously alive, it seem a rather random choice by George.  The how or why he would be involved with meeting Shadrich sometime after Brienne left him and Gulltown where Shadrich meets up with LF would need a lot of sorting out to make it reasonable. 

Quote

Tom Sevenstrings took up the count. "Alyn of Winterfell, Joth Quick-bow, Little Matt and his sister Randa, Anvil Ryn. Ser Ormond. Ser Dudley. Pate of Mory, Pate of Lancewood, Old Pate, and Pate of Shermer's Grove. Blind Wyl the Whittler. Goodwife Maerie. Maerie the Whore. Becca the Baker. Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry, young Lord Darry. The Bastard of Bracken. Fletcher Will. Harsley. Goodwife Nolla—"
"Enough." The Hound's face was tight with anger. "You're making noise. These names mean nothing. Who were they?"
"People," said Lord Beric. "People great and small, young and old. Good people and bad people, who died on the points of Lannister spears or saw their bellies opened by Lannister swords.

 

On 3/25/2017 at 9:34 AM, Isobel Harper said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shadrich (supposedly) support Stannis at one time?  Either way, as Brienne travels through the Crownlands and into the Riverlands, it seems many or most of the knights she meets are former Stannis supporters.  It would be quite likely that Byron was also a former Stannis supporter. 

 He did say he was "on the losing side" of the Blackwater, which one could assume he means he supported Stannis.  I think Ser Shadrich wanted Stannis to win at Blackwater, but not necessarily because he was a supporter.  Stannis sacking the city would likely mean Sansa will be moved out of the Red Keep, freeing her up for some later opportunity to get access to her.  Stannis losing would be a major blow and months would have to go by of waiting for another opportunity.  I think the whole talk about ransoms and the love of gold is about sussing Brienne's intentions out, because Brienne attempts (badly) to do the same to Shadrich.

Quote

Ser Shadrich laughed. "Oh, I doubt that, but it may be that you and I share a quest. A little lost sister, is it? With blue eyes and auburn hair?" He laughed again. "You are not the only hunter in the woods. I seek for Sansa Stark as well."

Brienne kept her face a mask, to hide her dismay. "Who is this Sansa Stark, and why do you seek her?"
"For love, why else?"
She furrowed her brow. "Love?"

"Aye, love of gold. Unlike your good Ser Creighton, I did fight upon the Blackwater, but on the losing side. My ransom ruined me. You know who Varys is, I trust? The eunuch has offered a plump bag of gold for this girl you've never heard of. I am not a greedy man. If some oversized wench would help me find this naughty child, I would split the Spider's coin with her."

 Really, Brienne?  Tries to give Shadrich a poker face, but bluntly wants to know Shadrich's intentions to a girl she's supposedly never heard of nor should care for.  And Shadrich is trying to warn Brienne that Creighton is full of shit (a friendly act), but he's still testing her by talking of the ransom if she's interested in the gold.  She clearly isn't, but the men in her party that Brienne thinks are "decent" men would be motivated by a ransom; therefore Shadrich can't trust her even though she's a good person.  He could follow her though, because one of Hibald's servants awoke and saw her leaving alone in the middle of the night.  Because she abandoned Creighton and Illifer, Shadrich might decide Brienne might have picked up a lead and snuck out.  He would have found out in the morning and could have been trailing her within a day. 

As far as Stannis's supporters go, the ones Sansa mentions in the court can either bend the knee and swear fealty to Joffrey or face punishment/execution.

Quote

Those who had changed their allegiance during the battle needed only to swear fealty to Joffrey, but the ones who had fought for Stannis until the bitter end were compelled to speak. Their words decided their fate. If they begged forgiveness for their treasons and promised to serve loyally henceforth, Joffrey welcomed them back into the king's peace and restored them to all their lands and rights. A handful remained defiant, however. "Do not imagine this is done, boy," warned one, the bastard son of some Florent or other. "The Lord of Light protects King Stannis, now and always. All your swords and all your scheming shall not save you when his hour comes."

 Sounds like there wasn't really any ransoming going on.  All Shadrich would have had to do is beg forgiveness and swear fealty, they'd be able to keep their wealth and titles.  If he was a Stannis loyalist, he'd be executed or imprisoned.  So, Shadrich saying he was ruined by ransom has some doubt to it.  It could be an embellishment to the ransom tale to couch the deception in some amount of truth and a believable backstory.  That sounds like a believable backstory for hedgeknight on the surface.    

The thing about Byron and being any one of Stannis's loyalists that viewed her in court, would they know her through a disguise and having changed physically from puberty?  Would they know the sound of her voice?  I think that would have to be managed by someone who knows her more upclose and personally.  Who would be able to see any subtle traits that would give her away.  Also a valuable bonus, someone who Sansa would know and would trust to comply with any escape plan, which is going to be very tricky with the limited routes to get out of Vale.   

@thereticent and @deja vu The thing about Tyrek and how we can disqualify him immediately is because Littlefinger would know Tyrek Lannister, being at court for years.  Jaime says he would be 14 in AFFC, that's very young and Sansa doesn't meantion Byron being that young, which would probably stand out.  Even if it were a case of Tyrek being disguised, I don't think we are shown before that Tyrek has the skillset to take on fooling Littlefinger.  He'd literally have to be at the Gates of the Moon for months never breaking character or rousing suspicion. 

Sorry it took so long to respond!     

     

   

 

 

[M_Tootles]

Duplicate post.

[M_Tootles]

On 3/25/2017 at 6:08 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

1. If Brienne's journey is full of important people met on the way, then is the merchant someone important?

"Hibald is as niggardly as he is fearful. And he is very fearful."

Why? It's dangerous abroad at the moment, sure, but is there something more?

Of course it's you who necro'd this and asked such a marvelous question, you lovable bastard.

 

On 3/25/2017 at 6:18 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Oh, and I googled Hibald and got this. I'll quote the interesting part:

Quote

In 679, Osthryth, queen of Mercia, sought to move the remains of her uncle, St Oswald, to Bardney [where Hybald was the abbot], but the monks refused to accept the body because Oswald, as king of Northumbria, had once conquered [the kingdom of] Lindsey [where Bardney is]. The remains were locked outside the abbey but the appearance of a mysterious beam of light, that night, led the monks to reconsider.

I found that interesting given that Ned's bones are still floating around the Riverlands somewhere.

What if Hallis Mollen and the Silent Sisters transferred custody of them to Howland Reed, who arranged for them to be shipped north under the cover of commerce?

Money. Check out Osthryth's husband's name: King "Æthelred". Now keeping in mind that everybody moving Ned's bones are essentially Tullys via Cat, and that Cat is essentially Whent via Minisa, the reference to Oswald is pretty pregnant since the Kettleblacks are the Whent boys. Might Hibald BE Hallis? Doubtful. I had a discussion on reddit re: my Alesander Frey post in which it was proferred that this merchant might be Symond Frey. The cheapness certainly fits, esp. if he's also Oro/Arya's Merchant or simply paralleld to Oro/Arya's Merchant. And the name it the same vowel/consonant/letter formula, FWIW. Gets a lot closer if you go with the traditional Hybald v Symond. Hrrrmm... 

 

Just can't resist...

On 9/26/2016 at 9:00 AM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Neither Meera or Jojen are described as fox-faced, and they both have brown hair. The same is probably true of Howland. 

Simply wrong. Meera has brown hair. Jojen's hair is very pointedly not described. I get into this in my Howland = Shadrich post. And without wanting to give to much away... hmmm... well, fuck, I don't think I can add more without giving shit away, so I'll just say the Mother Of Theories will talk more about the Reed phenotype. "The same is probably true of Howland" LOL.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

2 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

Of course it's you who necro'd this and asked such a marvelous question, you lovable bastard.

Thank you. What does necro'd mean?

2 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

Check out Osthryth's husband's name: King "Æthelred". Now keeping in mind that everybody moving Ned's bones are essentially Tullys via Cat, and that Cat is essentially Whent via Minisa, the reference to Oswald is pretty pregnant since the Kettleblacks are the Whent boys. Might Hibald BE Hallis? Doubtful. I had a discussion on reddit re: my Alesander Frey post in which it was proferred that this merchant might be Symond Frey. The cheapness certainly fits, esp. if he's also Oro/Arya's Merchant or simply paralleld to Oro/Arya's Merchant. And the name it the same vowel/consonant/letter formula, FWIW. Gets a lot closer if you go with the traditional Hybald v Symond. Hrrrmm...

You'll have to explain what the significance of Aethelred is. (Fun fact: this Aethelred was king of Mercia, which is the true location of the Shire.)

I'm also at a loss at how the people moving Ned's bones are Tullys. Isn't it Hallis Mollen and some Silent Sisters?

And I completely did not twig that somebody in the story was called Oswald. Interestingly, Ostryth is trying to bury her uncle's bones... was Oswell Kettleblack her uncle? It's not stated so, but the ages kind of work, if Oswell was the much younger brother.

I'm not sure what that'll all add up to, if anything, but the idea that a dead man's bones aren't where they're supposed to be, and are even being transported in secret, kind of hints towards the idea that certain graves marked by certain cairns outside the remains of a certain tower don't actually contain the bones of a few certain persons whose bones are supposed to be contained there. P.S. certain.

Naturally, I don't think that exact story will simply pop up in ours, especially since it's on wikipedia so who the fuck knows if that's a proper telling of the story, or what version of it GRRM may have read, if any. His interest in English history tends to focus on the middle ages rather than the dark ages.

 

By the way: if it really is Tyrek Lannister in the Vale, could this shifty merchant headed for Gulltown be Varys in disguise? He's gotta be looking for something to do during AFFC and ADWD. (Matter of fact, nobody ever really has a particularly satisfying answer to that question. It's generally just assumed that Varys hung out in the secret tunnels for a few months, but that's a bit lame.)

[jthurman14]

Varys as the merchant? It would work in that Varys tried to help Ned, in so much as it furthered his blackfyre agenda, that he would help Neds allies if it served his purpose. I have to disagree, but only because it is unnecessary, not because it is impossible.  Oh wait...is it unnecessary? Getting shadritch to the right places at the right times could have been his own doing...much more plausible if he was getting help from someone who knew where to send him.

[M_Tootles]

On 3/31/2017 at 5:40 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Thank you. What does necro'd mean?

You'll have to explain what the significance of Aethelred is. (Fun fact: this Aethelred was king of Mercia, which is the true location of the Shire.)

Ae name, that's all.

 

Quote

I'm also at a loss at how the people moving Ned's bones are Tullys. Isn't it Hallis Mollen and some Silent Sisters?

Not the people physically transporting them. The remaining "Starks".

 

Quote

By the way: if it really is Tyrek Lannister in the Vale, could this shifty merchant headed for Gulltown be Varys in disguise? He's gotta be looking for something to do during AFFC and ADWD. (Matter of fact, nobody ever really has a particularly satisfying answer to that question. It's generally just assumed that Varys hung out in the secret tunnels for a few months, but that's a bit lame.)

Merchants has a crossbow. Tyrion's weapon to kill Tywin. Hmmm...

 

EDIT:

All his "serving men" have quarterstaffs. 6 men, plus him, makes 7. The only other quarterstaffs in the books belong to Septon Meribald and this lot of sparrows:

Quote

They descended from the litter under Blessed Baelor's statue. The queen was pleased to see that the bones and filth had been cleaned away. Ser Osfryd had told it true; the crowd was neither as numerous nor as unruly as the sparrows had been. They stood about in small clumps, gazing sullenly at the doors of the Great Sept, where a line of novice septons had been drawn up with quarterstaffs in their hands. No steel, Cersei noted. That was either very wise or very stupid, she was not sure which.

The quarterstaffs are specifically "ash", which correlates with House Stark per the "grey ash" standard back in AGOT that people use of link Mel's vision to House Stark/Arya. 

This is awfully polite and semi-holy sounding:

Quote

"You will forgive me if I am suspicious," called the merchant, "but the times are troubled, and I have only good Ser Shadrich to defend me. Who are you?"

"Serving men" is almost always about serving food, but there are 2 "serving men" in the House of Black and White and this quote about nearby Saltpans places "serving men" in textual proximity to something interesting:

Quote

Strongboar guffawed. "Twenty fat innkeeps, maybe. Twenty serving men pissing in their breeches. Twenty begging brothers armed with bowls. Not twenty knights. Not me." (FFC Jai IV)

Cersei's dream about Maggi the Frog, whom I think may have something to do with nearby Duskendale, includes this pregnant image:

Quote

 the knights and serving men they passed were made of mist. 

How about this?

Quote

Two serving men were carrying off the dead dog's carcass and an old woman had fetched out a mop and rake and bucket to deal with the blood-soaked rushes 

Bolded bit sounds like moving the Hound, which EB's monks certainly did. Mob and bucket sounds like the High Sparrow scrubbing the floors with a brush and pail.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT!! LOOK WHAT SERVING MEN DO IN THE (QUIET ISLE-AFFILIATED) HOUSE OF BLACK AND WHITE:

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The candle burned with a dark red flame, she knew; for those with eyes, the corpse would have seemed awash in a ruddy glow. Before summoning the servingmen to carry him away, she knelt and felt his face, tracing the line of his jaw, brushing her fingers across his cheeks and nose, touching his hair. (DWD tBG)

Quote

When the serving men arrived to bear the corpse away, the blind girl followed them. (tBG)

 

Same job in the fighting pits:

Quote

…in the hidden world below the seats, the dark domain of the pit fighters and the serving men who tended to them, quick and dead… (DWD Tyr IX)

 

How 'bout Tywin's REAL corpse?

 

 

[M_Tootles]

On 3/31/2017 at 5:40 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Thank you. What does necro'd mean?

Revived the thread from the dead.

 

On 3/31/2017 at 5:40 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

By the way: if it really is Tyrek Lannister in the Vale, could this shifty merchant headed for Gulltown be Varys in disguise?

 

Varys kills Kevan and Pycelle w/the crossbow too, obvs. Merchants rides "a dappled grey mare". Here's the requisite "cigar is just a cigar" quote from ACOK Arya II:

Quote

The next morning, a sleek merchant on a grey mare reined up by Yoren and offered to buy his wagons and everything in them for a quarter of their worth

Sounds like a cheap-ass merchant. And hey, he's looking for a wagon.

Hybald/Hibald being a saint's name is interesting since Varys's favorite disguise is begging brother. Begging brother would also tie him to Howland/Shad via the Quiet Isle and EB/Morgarth(/Lewyn)

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

6 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

Ae name, that's all.

Ah. Aegon, Aerys, etc.

6 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

All his "serving men" have quarterstaffs. 6 men, plus him, makes 7. The only other quarterstaffs in the books belong to Septon Meribald and this lot of sparrows...

And Arstan Whitebeard.

6 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

How 'bout Tywin's REAL corpse?

This just blew my mind.

[M_Tootles]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

And Arstan Whitebeard.

He's got a staff, not a quarterstaff. I get that they're conceptually the same, but I do like my strict textuality with GRRM.