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SER SHADRICH, HIS ALLIES AND ADVERSARIES.. (Morgarth, Byron, Creighton, Illifer)

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22 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Ser Byron is Sandor Clegane under a glamor spell  

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In TWOW Alayne I sample, Sansa bumps into Shadrich and he catches her.  This is some thing we've seen Sandor do many times in a protective way, which seems to be a hint at his helpful intentions.  Later at the feast, she will dance with all 3:  Byron, Shadrich and Morgarth.  If Byron can dance without any trouble and he is Sandor, that means his leg is fully healed and he's just fine.  If I had to guess, I would say aside from expected behavior at a feast, the dance is to get Sansa more familiar and comfortable with all three if they need her to comply with a plan later.  And there is that matter of who Alayne will give her favor to since it's not Harry, which should prove very interesting.   

 

I have no problems with a theory suggesting a glamour is being employed, but I think you have another problem here. Glamours change appearances, but not mannerisms. Ser Maynard Plumm from The Hedge Knight clearly acts like Bloodraven. In Dance, post-burning Rattleshirt acts like Mance. Even if Sandor managed to heal, however, I can't see him pulling off the elegant manners of Ser Byron.

On those grounds alone, I think we must reject this. Unless you can explain it, of course.

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50 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

On those grounds alone, I think we must reject this. Unless you can explain it, of course.

I can actually.  It's called acting.  Sandor is very capable of adapting his behavior and speech.  He does have his normal crudeness, but he was raised in a landed-knight household with a maester and he was a squire in the Lannister household.  As a squire, not only would he be trained to fight, but he'd also be trained in courtesy and court protocols.  Courtesy is not just for girls, it was a very important skill to know for all nobility and courtiers to navigate socially.  He has lived most of his life around the Lannister's and the royal court, he would be fully aware of "gallant" behavior even if he normally didn't care for those things.  Despite his size and gruffness, he can speak to and handle Sansa gently.  He can lie well when he needs to.  Even without a glamor and being the most recognizable guy in Westeros, he tricked a knight that knew him into believing he was just a farmer delivering salt pork to the Twins just before the RW.

Quote

"Salt pork for the wedding feast, if it please you, ser." The Hound mumbled his reply, his eyes down, his face hidden.

"Salt pork never pleases me." The pitchfork knight gave Clegane only the most cursory glance, and paid no attention at all to Arya, but he looked long and hard at Stranger. The stallion was no plow horse, that was plain at a glance. One of the squires almost wound up in the mud when the big black courser bit at his own mount. "How did you come by this beast?" the pitchfork knight demanded.

"M'lady told me to bring him, ser," Clegane said humbly. "He's a wedding gift for young Lord Tully."

"What lady? Who is it you serve?"

"Old Lady Whent, ser."

"Does she think she can buy Harrenhal back with a horse?" the knight asked. "Gods, is there any fool like an old fool?" Yet he waved them down the road. "Go on with you, then."

"Aye, m'lord." The Hound snapped his whip again, and the old drays resumed their weary trek. The wheels had settled deep into the mud during the halt, and it took several moments for the team to pull them free again. By then the outriders were riding off. Clegane gave them one last look and snorted. "Ser Donnel Haigh," he said. "I've taken more horses off him than I can count. Armor as well. Once I near killed him in a mêlée."

"How come he didn't know you, then?" Arya asked.

"Because knights are fools, and it would have been beneath him to look twice at some poxy peasant." He gave the horses a lick with the whip. "Keep your eyes down and your tone respectful and say ser a lot, and most knights will never see you. They pay more mind to horses than to smallfolk. He might have known Stranger if he'd ever seen me ride him."

 And that's the essence of glamoring and acting really and here we have another instance of "fooling the fool."  People see what they expect to see and Sandor is very good at taking advantage of that.  He changes his speech to the smallfolk manner.  To be Byron, all he has to do is mimic people like Loras Tyrell.  A layer of good acting is necessary to add to the glamor because Littlefinger (who is a pretty sharp guy) and Sandor would have been familiar with each other from court, so Byron needs to be the opposite of Sandor in all ways.  In the situations with Mance and BR, it might not have been as necessary.  Again, the acting may also been more for Sansa's benefit as well, because he would believe that's the kind of thing she would respond to or place trust in, since the last time he saw her.  Even at worst, he could have let Shadrich and Morgarth do most of the talking.

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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So for the sake of supplying possible alternative interpretations, I'll toss out a few ideas. (I'm not buying the OP's theory, but there are enough possible almost-similarities, especially with hands and noses, that they might be deliberate red herrings by GRRM.)

Ser Creighton and Ser Illifer

I don't think the names mean anything, and the sigils seem deliberately bland. The trout-cooking does indeed seem to be the key point to pick up on. Ser Illifer claims a family history that includes some rather vehement opposition to the Lothstons. That would seem to place him from somewhere in the crownlands or eastern riverlands. The pair seem to have known each other for a while.

conclusion - perhaps riverlanders that sided with the Targs in the rebellion, lost their lands, and became hedge knights as a result. Opposed the Tullys in TWo5K ( the trout thing). Creighton's belly may indicate they have mastered the fine art of hedge-knighting - figuring out how to find a meal. Maybe they helped guard the Lannister baggage train.

Ser Shadrich

The name implies a fire connection. He's not mad and not a mouse, but a fox. Ruined by fighting on Stannis' side in the war. What does that mean? In a tourney, the loser must ransom armor and horse, but in a war often you get your lands seized, if you have any. If you believe his story. Since his sigil story doesn't match his disposition, I'm sensing deception, either now or future. Why did he want Brienne to team up with him? Was it a serious offer? I say no. Brienne is easy to ID by sight. Whatever his plan is, it must require more than one person, but Brienne sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps he wanted to use her as a distraction or fall guy. Calls her  wench, woman. Don't know if he's a m'lorder or a my lorder. Dances.

Ser Morgarth

Mor- has dark implications at times. Calls LF m'lord. Hands as big as hams. Dances.

Ser Byron.

Elegant, well-spoken. Dances. Yeah, the name must mean something, but remember that Lord Byron was famously described as being "Mad, bad, and dangerous to know." Don't know if he m'lords or my lords, but I bet it's the latter.

The idea that one of LF's Triplets has the ability to ID Sansa has a whole lot of merit. Ser Byron seems the most likely to have been at court. Should we be looking for parallels between these three and the three Kettleblacks? Or the Three Stooges?

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49 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I can actually.  It's called acting. 

Sandor despises knights. He's oozing with it, barely keeping his scorn contained, in your example. And that was a very short encounter. Could he actually pull off being an elegant knight, for a long period? I'm very doubtful. 

And dancing? When would Sandor have learned to dance? And do you think GRRM would give us a scene where glam!Sandor dances with Sansa without just TONS of hints and symbolism? You know George can't resist his hound symbols.

Edited by Ibbison from Ibben

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7 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Sandor despises knights. He's oozing with it, barely keeping his scorn contained, in your example. And that was a very short encounter. Could he actually pull off being an elegant knight, for a long period? I'm very doubtful. 

And dancing? When would Sandor have learned to dance? And do you think GRRM would give us a scene where glam!Sandor dances with Sansa without just TONS of hints and symbolism? You know George can't resist his hound symbols.

I see your points. We only have short encounters with all three knights in Sansa's POV, and her mind is busy with other things not with some random dudes who seek employment by LF. We need more text! But still I don't see seroius objections to OP and @Blue-Eyed Wolf theory.

You are right, we never saw Sandor dancing (I would pay a good money to see this), but it doesn't mean he can't. Dancing used to be a part of nobility education as well. Sandor is from Westerlands, where Andal traditionsincluding knightly culture are pretty strong. So I'm pretty sure he didn't avoid dancing lessens at early stage of his life. It doesn't mean one should become an excelent dancer, but to be able to pull off some moves on the dance floor if neccessary. If you played f.e. basketball at PE lessons but played only occasionaly since then you still would be able to do some passes and dribblings, though not so good as NBA star.

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3 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Resorting to quibbles doesn't help your case.

Perhaps you should apply that to your own reasoning, when you claim someone with orange hair isn't a red-head and therefore not kissed by fire, or argue "yeah but that's just at the edge of the Neck, near Moat Cailin" and such, and leave out the other described bog areas of Cracklaw Point, or completely ignore the direction that is described by Bran. The eyes in the treetrunk can't look down, only forward. The leaves can look any direction they want.  

I'll give quotes later on that, and discuss it further, but I'm looking through the books of weirwood scenes. The first one pointing out that the leaves of the weirwood are important:

 
Quote

 

Osha studied him. "You asked them and they're answering. Open your ears, listen, you'll hear."
Bran listened. "It's only the wind," he said after a moment, uncertain. "The leaves are rustling."
"Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?" She seated herself across the pool from him, clinking faintly as she moved. Mikken had fixed iron manacles to her ankles, with a heavy chain between them; she could walk, so long as she kept her strides small, but there was no way for her to run, or climb, or mount a horse. "They see you, boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back." (aGoT, Bran VI)

 

 

Whitetree village:

 
Quote

 

And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.
It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.
 
He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire. Beneath the skull he saw another, smaller, the jaw broken off. It was half-buried in ash and bits of bone.
When he brought the skull to Mormont, the Old Bear lifted it in both hands and stared into the empty sockets. "The wildlings burn their dead. We've always known that. Now I wished I'd asked them why, when there were still a few around to ask."

"Would that bones could talk," the Old Bear grumbled. "This fellow could tell us much. How he died. Who burned him, and why. Where the wildlings have gone." He sighed. "The children of the forest could speak to the dead, it's said. But I can't." He tossed the skull back into the mouth of the tree, where it landed with a puff of fine ash. "Go through all these houses. Giant, get to the top of this tree, have a look. I'll have the hounds brought up too. Perchance this time the trail will be fresher." His tone did not suggest that he held out much hope of the last.

Chett was cursing them loudly, his voice thick with the anger he never seemed to put aside. The light filtering through the red leaves of the weirwood made the boils on his face look even more inflamed than usual.

Jon heard a rustling from the red leaves above. Two branches parted, and he glimpsed a little man moving from limb to limb as easily as a squirrel. Bedwyck stood no more than five feet tall, but the grey streaks in his hair showed his age. The other rangers called him Giant. He sat in a fork of the tree over their heads and said, "There's water to the north. A lake, might be. A few flint hills rising to the west, not very high. Nothing else to see, my lords."

 

So, we have a living weirwood tree, no harm has come to it, and yet at least the mouth of the face (a hollow) was used to cremate dead. It being blackened by soot and ashes means a little fire was started inside the tree. We have a metaphorical paragraph of the light filtered through the red leaves inflaming someone. And then we get a scene of someone compared to a squirrel and the size of a CoTF scouting from the red leaves and communicating from the leaves.

We have a scene with two reeds climbing the weirwood tree (to escape Summer's and Shaggydog's teeth when Jojen angers Bran by not quitting to ask after wolf dreams). With Arya's Weasel soup chapter, she trains in thebranches and foliage of a normal tree, then climbs down and goes to the weirwood tree there, and the red leaves are said to be 5 pointed (think of the "fiery hand"), and Timett son of Timett who's the "red hand" of the Burned Men.

Here's a fire-leaf image:

Quote

Come dawn, he dressed and went outside, to walk along the outer walls. A brisk autumn wind was swirling through the battlements. It reddened his cheeks and stung his eyes. He watched the forest go from grey to green below him as light filtered through the silent trees. On his left he could see tower tops above the inner wall, their roofs gilded by the rising sun. The red leaves of the weirwood were a blaze of flame among the green. Ned Stark's tree, he thought, and Stark's wood, Stark's castle, Stark's sword, Stark's gods. This is their place, not mine. I am a Greyjoy of Pyke, born to paint a kraken on my shield and sail the great salt sea. I should have gone with Asha. (aCoK, Theon V)

"There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire." (aCoK, Bran VII)

We have Addam Marbrand of Ashemark, with copper hair, and his blazon a tree with flames for foliage.

Quote

Ser Addam Marbrand was the first of the captains to depart, a day before the rest. He made a gallant show of it, riding a spirited red courser whose mane was the same copper color as the long hair that streamed past Ser Addam's shoulders. The horse was barded in bronze-colored trappings dyed to match the rider's cloak and emblazoned with the burning tree. (aCoK, Arya VIII)

Hands, eyes and flames that is what those weirwood leaves are constantly compared to, ' cause a weirwood tree certainly has no thousand eyes carved into its stem. Weirwoods are already metaphorically ablaze, or should I say "kissed by fire".

As for this notion that one can only see with weirwood if there's a face carved in it... You have all this third eye seeing, and George pointing out through Bran that there's no actual eye in his forehead. But oh my, there must be eyes carved in the tree, otherwise a greenseer can't see. :rolleyes: And yet a greenseer can see back in time when the weirwood was still an acorn. 

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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31 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

You are right, we never saw Sandor dancing (I would pay a good money to see this), but it doesn't mean he can't. Dancing used to be a part of nobility education as well. Sandor is from Westerlands, where Andal traditionsincluding knightly culture are pretty strong. So I'm pretty sure he didn't avoid dancing lessens at early stage of his life. It doesn't mean one should become an excelent dancer, but to be able to pull off some moves on the dance floor if neccessary. If you played f.e. basketball at PE lessons but played only occasionaly since then you still would be able to do some passes and dribblings, though not so good as NBA star

Exactly.  I would pay good money to see that too.  Dancing comes with the whole higher born Andal / southron education package.  In that whole seen, she notes people that are terrible dancers and the really good ones, so we could assume he's at an acceptable level of practice.  Not amazing or note-able, just acceptable enough not to be bad and he's been exposed to this his whole life.  He may despise knights, but that didn't stop him from becoming an accomplished fighter / jouster.  It didn't stop him from taking the white cloak.  He just doesn't want the vows, ceremony, or title of Ser.  He's is a knight in all but name.  Technically, you're not even supposed to be a kingsguard or participate in a joust without being anointed, but this just goes to show Sandor's unique position and the amount of latitude he's given with the Lannisters and the court.  Even without vows, no one questions his loyalty, word, or ability to fill roles only reserved for knights.  Considering his high level of motivation to rescue Sansa, I think he would be able to stuff down his usual disgust with courtly bullshit out of necessity.  Oh and he had no problem letting the ferrymen think he was a knight and that was just to get himself and Arya across a river.  Even if we take Morgarth and Shadrich at face value that they are only hedge knights, they are still capable of dancing to an acceptable level.  

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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3 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

You ignored the quote. The GoHH said nothing about missing leaves. She said that Thoros, a fire-scryer and follower of R'hllor (pink priest) cannot use his powers atop High Heart because the Old Gods are still strong there.


Indeed I ignored the quote. She's not a greenseer, just like Osha isn't. GoHH can only tell what she "believes" or what she's been told, just like "Osha" can only tell what she believes. But when we get weirwood scenes where people try to see or communicate something to other people, we see those characters in the foliage (good and bad characters btw). It's like people claiming there are no eyes south of the Neck, because supposedly all the weirwoods are gone. And yet they're very obviously wrong. Plenty of them were burned or destroyed, but plenty were not. HH's tree is alive, with red leaves. Robb preys in front of a slender weirwood in Riverrun's godswood in aGoT.

Indeed, GoHH says nothing about the missing leaves. It's an observation I make with regards the state of the trees. 31 stumps. No leaves. No eyes. But the roots still have power. I watch for what George shows us. 

Lots of knowledge has been forgotten and lost, even with the CoTF, since so many were slain and had to flee North, nor do they live thousands of years. CoTF may have mistaken beliefs just like humans can. 

Edited by sweetsunray

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One of the arguments against HR is that crannogmen don't ride, yes? Apparently, crannogmen do have and ride horses:

 
Quote

 

"Afoot," [Jojen] answered. "A step at a time."
"The road from Greywater to Winterfell went on forever, and we were mounted then..." (aSoS, Bran I)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Ser Shadrich

The name implies a fire connection. He's not mad and not a mouse, but a fox. Ruined by fighting on Stannis' side in the war. What does that mean? In a tourney, the loser must ransom armor and horse, but in a war often you get your lands seized, if you have any. If you believe his story. Since his sigil story doesn't match his disposition, I'm sensing deception, either now or future. Why did he want Brienne to team up with him? Was it a serious offer? I say no. Brienne is easy to ID by sight. Whatever his plan is, it must require more than one person, but Brienne sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps he wanted to use her as a distraction or fall guy. Calls her  wench, woman. Don't know if he's a m'lorder or a my lorder. Dances

Well his sigil has some glaring weirwood connection with the white mouse and red eyes.  Remember the knight of the laughing tree also had a weirwood painting on her shield and that story is a direct connection to HR.  Shadrich says he's called the Mad Mouse because he's not an average mouse that runs from danger, he runs toward it.  Not that he's literally mentally unstable, just a contradiction.  Like Meera describes her father as not being the average crannog that sticks close to home.  He's bolder and seeks out knowledge and adventure.  He is being deceptive, but for a good cause I think.  I do agree he wouldn't seriously team up with Brienne for an actual rescue.  I think his whole conversation with Brienne is meant to show her she's not fooling anyone and she's probably not cut out for this, even if she is a good person and legitimately is trying to help.  He correctly guesses Illifer and Creighton are full of shit, so maybe he is trying to give her a warning about those two.  It's like EB telling her she should go home to her father.  He can appreciate her sincerity and recognize her bravery, but she's not the right person for the job.  She's so honest there is no deception in her, which is bad if your plan is designed around subterfuge.  I mean, she's just going around asking random people if they've seen her sister who she didn't bother thinking of a name for.  However, she did leave the inn they were staying at in the middle of the night, so Shadrich may have still trailed her just to find out what she may know if she did happen to stumble on a lead.  That would eventually lead him to the Quiet Isle and bingo.             

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4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I do agree he wouldn't seriously team up with Brienne for an actual rescue.  I think his whole conversation with Brienne is meant to show her she's not fooling anyone and she's probably not cut out for this, even if she is a good person and legitimately is trying to help.  He correctly guesses Illifer and Creighton are full of shit, so maybe he is trying to give her a warning about those two.  It's like EB telling her she should go home to her father.  He can appreciate her sincerity and recognize her bravery, but she's not the right person for the job.  She's so honest there is no deception in her, which is bad if your plan is designed around subterfuge.  I mean, she's just going around asking random people if they've seen her sister who she didn't bother thinking of a name for.

Totally agree with this. He had 2 goals in mind imo: alert her to the realization she's not the sole one looking, and that many would be looking for her for mercenary reasons. But he wouldn't have wanted to actually take her to Sansa. She can't lie, can't deceive, and can't see through deception either, and she's unforgettable really. She has no eye nor ear for sarcasm or irony either. It's like she hears words, but doesn't get the concept of tone which says so much more than literal words. She takes Thoros's words to Lem about the helm serious at face value as a berating... as if Thoros never knew the BwB have been picking corpses for armor and money for ages, even in Beric's time. I think Thoros was actually yanking her chains in that scene. "Oh, Lem! You bad boy! You took the Hound's helm! What have we BwB come to." All those men she saw hanging in the forest before arriving at the inn were stripped of armor and valuables. And despite his seeming "it ain't the same anymore", he's the man who hands LS King Tommen's letter of safe passage, knowing full well what it would lead up to. I have to recheck some of the conversational descriptions we get, but it's as if Brienne does not comprehend language in that way, except the literal words. Even when she thinks someone is making fun of her, she's not sure that they are. There are a few disorders that handicap someone in understanding body language and other subliminal messages, which say more than the actual words. And by writing her POV this way, George manages to make the reader take other characters' words too literal too.

ETA: just reread Brienne's first chapter and it is indeed very factually written. We get x said or y told, but hardly ever a facial expression with it, rarely body language (a shrug once), hardly intonation (a dry chuckle once, "insisting", "urging", "stoutly" ), hardly any adjectives. The examples I gave between brackets are the sole ones I found in a conversation of 4 pages. Creighton squints at her, but this is immediately interpreted by Brienne as the squinter being near-sighted. When characters move it is purely a description of functional movement - turning fish. We do have Brienne's thoughts and opinions of her thinking this or that one looks safe (or the opposite), but we hardly get observed clues about this at all. Other POVs would have people barring teeth, smiling, crinkling noses, and loads more of information. There is even Illifer's dry chuckle moment where he says "the likes of her have no need of the likes of them". She knows he says something derisive, and the chuckle cannot be missed (unless she were actually deaf), but she feels "uncertain". Eye descriptions, movement, or expressions are absent in her POV. In most POVs you still get a sense that you can partially read the non-POV characters appearing in it. You can't at all in Brienne's POV, unless it's glaringly obvious.

Here's more on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatic_language_impairment

And I think there's something overly suggestive here by George in Bran's chapter of the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree:

Quote

Bran closed his eyes to try and see the man in his little skin boat. In his head, the crannogman looked like Jojen, only older and stronger and dressed like Meera. (aSoS, Bran II)

It's almost a natural thing to do: we have descriptions with how Jojen and Meera look and dress, and imagine their father to look just like them, just older. But having Bran do it in his mind is laying it on thick imo. I betcha he looks quite different actually.

Edited by sweetsunray

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sweetsunray-

Osha's monologue - You've supplied nothing linking weirwood leaves to eyes or fire here. I'm not sure why you included it The leaves aren't seeing, here. They are talking..

Whitetree village - OK we've got an example where some villagers cremated dead inside a weirwood. (Note- this is not a normal wilding practice. They normally just burn their dead, and that seems to do the job.) Your contention that the tree was unharmed is not precisely true; the blackened interior indicates at least minor damage. What this shows is that weirwood can resist fire to an extent. Unless the tree started the fire itself, you don't have a link between fire and the Old Gods. We just have a lone case of wildings from one village being overly cautious.

People climb trees so they can see farther. Sometimes that tree is a weirwood. So what? The tree isn't seeing. The person is. In fact, the leaves make it harder for the person to see. No link between leaves and eyes here.

Theon V - Well, you managed to find one quote that actually links red weirwood leaves to fire. It comes from someone who does not worship the Old Gods, though, and seems to be foreshadowing for the burning of Winterfell.

Bran VII - "There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire." (aCoK, Bran VII)

You're helping me make my case now. This shows the power of living wood opposing the power of flame. In context, what it means is that Winterfell's godswood, the stronghold of the Old Gods, has a power as strong as fire, and can resist it. The Old Gods in opposition to fire, not linked to it.

Addam Marbrand - The Marbrand sigil is not a weirwood, and is thus irrelevant.

Weirwood leaves - ASoS, Samwell III
The dusk was deepening, the leaves of the weirwood rustling softly, waving like a thousand blood-red hands.

The "Fiery Hand" is connected to R'hllor, not the Old Gods. And the Red Hands of the Burned Men trace their roots to Sheepstealer.

GoHH - Your quote - " Indeed I ignored the quote. She's not a greenseer,"

The text -

ASoS, Arya VIII -- The firelight made her eyes gleam as red as the eyes of Jon's wolf.

ASoS, Arya VIII -- . . . she has her own ways of knowing things, that one. The weirwoods whisper in her ear when she sleeps.

ADwD, Bran III -- but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift.

The Ghost of High Heart is indeed a greenseer.

Crannogmen riding - No, the claim that crannogmen don't ride was not part of the argument. The contention was that they don't fight as knights from horseback. That takes vastly more training.

Weirwood eyes - There is not a single bit of text anywhere in the canon that relates to the field of vision of weirwood eyes. We don't even know how high off the ground the eyes are. Your statement has no support in the text, and I will ignore it. There is also no support for the idea that a weirwood can be used to see as an acorn, at least for a greenseer unable to see beyond the trees.

another telling point - In ADwD, Jon III, when the Old Gods-following wildings that surrendered to Stannis come south of the Wall, they are forced to reject their own religion by burning weirwood branches.

In conclusion,

Your claim that -

Quote

Hands, eyes and flames that is what those weirwood leaves are constantly compared to. Weirwoods are already metaphorically ablaze.

        is incorrect.

You have supplied only one instance of weirwood leaves being compared to flames, and that was best interpreted as a foreshadowing of the burning of Winterfell. All other examples show weirwoods and the Old Gods in opposition to fire. You have not provided a single instance linking weirwood leaves to eyes. The leaves, in fact, seem to spend their time rustling, not seeing. Do eyes rustle?

TGoHH

Quote

This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists."

BR

Quote

The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use …

Meanwhile, we have definitive statements from two of our most knowledgeable figures representing the Old Gods, TGoHH and BR, informing us that the Old Gods do not "love the flames" and that weirwood sight, before the greenseer can move beyond the trees,  comes from the eyes. Important events take place right in front of the faces - Ned cleaning his sword, Jon and Sam taking their NW oaths. Perhaps rookie greenseers can only see that much. We do have the mystery of how can see beyond the trees - perhaps greenseers quickly learn to see the immediate vicinity of their home tree. Maybe the eyes are magical, and can in fact see all around. The leaves, however, are heavily associated with communication, not sight.

I respect many of your posts (In particular, the Bear stuff is simply outstanding.) But these claims don't fly. Key elements are directly refuted by the text.

 

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1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Well his sigil has some glaring weirwood connection with the white mouse and red eyes.  Remember the knight of the laughing tree also had a weirwood painting on her shield and that story is a direct connection to HR. 

...........

I think his whole conversation with Brienne is meant to show her she's not fooling anyone and she's probably not cut out for this, even if she is a good person and legitimately is trying to help.  He correctly guesses Illifer and Creighton are full of shit, so maybe he is trying to give her a warning about those two.  It's like EB telling her she should go home to her father.  He can appreciate her sincerity and recognize her bravery, but she's not the right person for the job.  She's so honest there is no deception in her, which is bad if your plan is designed around subterfuge.  I mean, she's just going around asking random people if they've seen her sister who she didn't bother thinking of a name for.  However, she did leave the inn they were staying at in the middle of the night, so Shadrich may have still trailed her just to find out what she may know if she did happen to stumble on a lead.  That would eventually lead him to the Quiet Isle and bingo.             

I still think Shadrich is a bounty hunter, but that doesn't make him evil. I can agree with your idea of Shadrich trying to warn Brienne off with good intentions.

For the record, I've always interpreted Lyanna's KotLT shield sigil as a symbol of deception. I don't see a direct link to HR The squires were abusing HR because of his crannogman race, not due to his religious affiliation.

 

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6 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

People climb trees so they can see farther. Sometimes that tree is a weirwood. So what? The tree isn't seeing. The person is. In fact, the leaves make it harder for the person to see. No link between leaves and eyes here.

 If that is your take and there is no further need to discuss anything between you and I, because obviously you throw out any metaphorical significance to scenes.I will provide further quotes for the benefit of others, but it is now very clear how differently we read the books. We'll have to agree to compeltely disagree.

8 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

The Ghost of High Heart is indeed a greenseer.

Wrong: GoHH has greensight, which means she dreams. A greenseer is someone who has greensight + skinchanges. Can you prove to me that she skinchanges? No. Jojen has the greensight, and he does not need weirwood for his dreams to be true.

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6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 If that is your take and there is no further need to discuss anything between you and I, because obviously you throw out any metaphorical significance to scenes.I will provide further quotes for the benefit of others, but it is now very clear how differently we read the books. We'll have to agree to compeltely disagree.

I would contend that I don't reject all metaphorical significance; I just try to be disciplined about it. And I'm very leery about twisting the text out of shape.

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Wrong: GoHH has greensight, which means she dreams. A greenseer is someone who has greensight + skinchanges. Can you prove to me that she skinchanges? No. Jojen has the greensight, and he does not need weirwood for his dreams to be true.


Given the power of her predictions, and the fact she is CotF vs Jojen the human, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on the warging point. She's old and tired and very depressed, a damaged CotF.

We agree to disagree, then.

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On Sandor: remember how he was caught by the BwB, set free, but his gold was taken, and as resprisal he stole Arya from the BwB. So, in aSoS we get a Stark daughter being equated with the bag of golden dragons that were taken from him.

Shadrich talks of a bag of gold to Brienne, and in the sample chapter Sansa and Shadrich bump into one another,

Spoiler

talk about whether he will participate, and he replies that a melee is all a hedge knight can hope for unless he stumbles on a bag of 1000 dragons. This is often taken as confirmation of Shadrich's mercenary intentions. However, Sansa could only have bumped into Shadrich, because he was walking behind her and following her (she bumps into him by turning around abruptly). And right before that she has a convo with Lyn Corbray where she has several jabs at him. And Myranda wonders whether she could make Lyn Corbray kill her suitors she's not fond of for her, to which Sansa replies he would for a bag of gold. Sansa manages to anger Lyn a great deal, and he's always short of money. Shadrich may actually be warning Sansa here.

But here's the thing: while Arya thought Sandor would take her to Joffrey, he never did. He wanted to join the Stark side. George certainly built up to it for several chapters, before having Sandor confirm he had no intention to deliver her to anybody but her family. And with Sansa we get the "bag of gold" equating again.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

For the record, I've always interpreted Lyanna's KotLT shield sigil as a symbol of deception. I don't see a direct link to HR The squires were abusing HR because of his crannogman race, not due to his religious affiliation.

 

Just solely as deception? I mean Starks and weirwoods go together like peanut butter and jelly.  It's not just a nod to the old gods. It's also a sign of where loyalties lie, at least for Shadrich imo. Since we're in the south, a weirwood link just stands out. Since we're approaching another tournament, we have an inverse of Harrenhal.  A Stark needs rescuing by a Reed in disguise with a weirwood/old gods sigil on the shield.  Makes perfect literary sense to have events repeat either as parallels or inverted. And that bullying at Harrenhal was about HR being a little guy, not anything to do with religion.  The sigil is not really religious in this context, it's about solidarity.

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6 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

I would contend that I don't reject all metaphorical significance; I just try to be disciplined about it. And I'm very leery about twisting the text out of shape.


Given the power of her predictions, and the fact she is CotF vs Jojen the human, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on the warging point. She's old and tired and very depressed, a damaged CotF.

We agree to disagree, then.

A scene with Giant doing it, who at Craster's btw sleeps in a hollow of a tree (which btw is also bear related stuff).

And Shagwell is hiding in weirwood tree at the Whispers as well and then uses a morningstar (dawn symbol) to kill Nimble Dick.

That's already at least twice we get such a scene, with a weirwood. I've honestly spent all day reading chapter... haven't even gotten to aFfC or aDwD, and been posting quotes, but at least I would have wanted the courtesy to try and make a case of metaphor sums. It's very obvious you do not wish me to do that. And I'm done wasting my time on this any further, when I could have spent my day writing on an essay instead.

And the last with GoHH as giving her the benefit of the doubt that she's a skinchanger is just plain wilfully absurd.

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On 9/26/2016 at 11:52 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I did start listening to @LmL 's podcast and now I'm seeing those damn moon meteors everywhere -- even in that spoonful of porridge and chamber pot SR flings at Colemon lol.   

Yep, you can never unsee them either, muah ha ha ha. "You're welcome," or "my apologies," whichever is appropriate.

P. S. I'll come back and read the OP here when I have a moment :)

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On 9/25/2016 at 11:46 PM, sweetsunray said:

Why would HR be a sexist when it comes to saving Ned's children, especially after only so few are left? It was Ned's sister who stood up for him at the Tourney. It was Ned's sister he went looking for all the way into the Red Mountains of Dorne, and with Ned the sole survivor (aside from him). If he can help find a sister, why not be motivated to find a daughter? There was contact with the crannogmen by LS, but we have no idea why exactly, and it's assumed that Lady Mormont and Glover who were sent by Robb, and signed the will also reached it. There is also no reason to suppose that HR would remain at the Neck, in his castle, while he sends both his own children to WF and eventually beyond the wall with Bran. Jojen had his dreams. HR does not have the greensight, but he's a magician trained by the green men of the isle at the Gods Eye. However, by aDwD, surely HR would already know he won't find his own children at WF, and we already have a lot of people out to try and save "Ned's Little Girl" from WF. None of that positively IDs Shadrich as HR, but a lot of the arguments against him being Shadrich seem based on well arguments as unsolid as quicksand. 

I suggested Robb because of geographic proximity, not gender.  Howland is in the neighborhood, and there are clearly ways in which he can help, and very well may have.  Until Sansa disappears from the Red Keep, there is no realistic way for Howland to help her.  He can hardly approach her at the Red Keep; there is no way she will trust him, and no reason for her to do so.  He has no way to know she is at the Vale, either.  Plus I doubt that someone who has been explicitly described as a poor horseback rider would masquerade as someone who would need to be a very good rider.  And as someone else pointed out, if he does meet her at the Vale, what is he supposed to do?  She has no reason to go with him, and he has no good way to persuade her of his good intentions.  (And yes, I am aware that Brienne would have similar problems if they ever met.)  Plus, at least for the time being, the Vale is as safe a place as she is going to find.  LF may want into her pants, but is unlikely to force the issue for now or otherwise do her harm.  At least for the time being.

My suggestion about Winterfell was based on the likelihood of conflict involving the Others, which he could become aware of through greensight.  However, you bring up an interesting point about FArya.  Given that she passed through Moat Cailin, he may have heard about her passage, and decided to try and rescue her, not knowing she is fake (or that the Northern clans are trying to rescue her as well).  Although, tbh, I think he is still in the Neck or the north Riverlands helping the BwB and helping the Northerners get back North through the Neck.

As for Morgarth, he is described as having a thick salt and pepper beard.  I doubt enough time has elapsed to grow a beard that thick.  Plus, I still have serious issues about his motivation and his ability to get the right info and travel to the Vale in the time required.  Not to mention meeting up with two guys he has never met before.  Oh, and the QI is designed to be difficult for strangers to reach, so if Shadrich is going to get there, he is going to need help.

This seems to be a case of taking a theory and forcing the story to fit into it.  There are way too many excuses being made about why things don't line up for me to be at all happy with this one.  And like @Ibbison from Ibben. I am wary of using metaphorical connections, especially when that seems to be the primary means of analysis and is inconsistent with existing text.  While I am willing to accept that there is more to Shadrich and his companions than meets the eye, and think that they may well be working together, this particular theory doesn't hold water at all.

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