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SER SHADRICH, HIS ALLIES AND ADVERSARIES.. (Morgarth, Byron, Creighton, Illifer)


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If we're making a triangle between Freya - Mad Danelle - Sansa, there's some other interesting details.  Freya has a boar that she rides (ahem) named Hildisvíni, her "battle swine."  The boar is actually a devotee of Freya's worship in disguise named Óttar.  There are a ton of people in disguises in Norse mythology.  He's very pious in his worship of the Goddess.  Freya in return takes Óttar to a giantess and seer to tell him of his ancestry.  It's theorized that Óttar's name may actually be related to Freya's husband,  Óðr, which some theorize is another version of Odin.  Óðr name has similarities in meaning to the ones listed for Odin "frantic, madness," but also has the added layer of being a noun that means "song or poetry."  So what does any of this have to do with anything?

I already made an association of the boar that Brienne sees the in the mural at Duskendale with Sandor / the Gravedigger.  This adds even more layer of meaning to the boar if you consider Sandor in his own way has been a devotee of Sansa.  In KL he was frequently near her and helping her, not to mention she rode away with him at the bread riots.  What does Sansa do for him in return?  She makes him recall his ancestry and the pride he had in the heroic act of his grandfather when she asks him why he lets people call him a dog.  In his monologue about the three dogs that died in the autumn grass, Sandor has a very poetic turn of phrase and of course he wants the song from Sansa.  In a sense, Sandor is metaphoric bard (Bael the Bard!) which parallels him with our bard in the Winterfell arc, Mance.    

Interestingly also Freya spends most of the time seperated from Óðr as they both travel to seperate lands full of strangers.  Yet Freya is always looking for Óðr.  He's not just listed as her husband in the stories, but also her lover.  Freya's sexuality is a major part of her identity as is Sansa's.  While Sansa is not literally looking for Sandor, he's frequently in her thoughts and she makes comparisons and associations with other people to him and she does wonder what became of him.  That brings us back to Óttar, the devoted worshipper of Freya, in a religious setting and Sandor as a novice in the brotherhood on the QI.  I had orignally thought the boar was related to the Gravedigger as a strong animal that is known for digging up the earth and it was also suggested the boar represents regime change/upheaval (death of Robert Baratheon).  Boar = disguised worshipper of the Goddess is just icing on the cake.  So Freya means "Lady" (obvious associations with Sansa) who is married to Óðr or Odin ....   

OMG.... The play on words!!!!   Sandor.... San + taking the "d" from the middle of Odin + Óðr .... husband/lover of Sansa, the Lady, or Freya.         

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Sansa also has an Idunn connection: Idunn means "ever young". She was the goddess who was the guardian over a chest full of apples that kept anyone who ate of them young. The other gods prevented themselves from growing old by eating her apples. But a frost giant forced Loki to abduct her for him. The giant had taken on an eagle form, and Loki had thought to catch the eagle, but found himself glued tot he eagle, while the eagle flew higher and higher. The eagle only agreed to let him go, if he could get Idunn to a certain meeting place with ther apples, outside Asgard. And so, Loki lured her away, and she was abducted by the Eagle/frost-giant, whose castle was high on a mountain. The gods started to age because of this and discovered Idunn was gone. Since she was last seen with Loki, they arrested Loki and threatened to kill him, so he owned up to what happened and begged Freyja for her falcon feather cloak to fetch Idunn again. While the giant was absent, sailing on his boat, Loki turned Idunn into a nut so he could carry her back to Asgard as falcon. The giant discovered what had happened and cahsed Loki-falcon as an eagle, but was caught in a fire trap made by the gods, and died.

And in a norse version of throwing insults at each other (called flyting, and the poem is called Lokasenna) Loki once accused Idunn of having embraced her brother's killer. The "your mother is ..." insult-match was a Viking tradition as well.

Freyja's cats and boar and Loki's accusation in the same Lokasenna of sleeping with her twin brother, is not something we can associate with Sansa, but with Cersei and Arya. While Valkyries were pledged to do Odin's bidding, Freyja is connected with them as well. How exactly is not clear, but she seems to have been compared to a Valkyrie at times. A sort of patroness of them. Arya skinchanges cats ;) So, while I agree with Freyja references with Sansa, there are also other references for Sansa to other goddesses, such as Idunn still involving Freyja's falcon cloak, and there are several other female characters who have attributes of Freyja. It's never a 1:1 match :)

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9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Blue-Eyed Wolf How I WISH I was a Norse mythology expert! :wub: I know enough off the top of my head to see some few possible connections and if they are worth delving into deeper- but then I have to get my books out. Brunhilde has been a favorite of mine for a while (and she has a comet named after her). I perused your response above quickly, but am going to back over it now.

@sweetsunray is a true, top of the head mythology expert :bowdown:

I have to re-search myself.:ph34r: There's loads of stuff I forgot faster than I can remember them.

Brunhilde, the fallen Valkyrie who becomes a shieldmaiden and is trapped in a tower/ring of fire, waiting for the one Sigurd to come and get her, the only man who can, and who glamors himself to look like his brother-in-law to help him marry Brunhilde. Tragic!

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   The spearwives kinda remindme of Valkyrie types.  The one named Willow Witch-Eye has similarities with Odin with the tree/eye thing.  Freya having parallels with Mad Danelle with her black armor (warrior) and penchant for magic.  You got me on the cat-drawn cart though :dunno::lol: 

Jon is definitely a major Odin figure and now he is allowing women into his "army" and even comments that, "women are the strong ones." Jon has his Valkyrie collection amassing now!... but that is another thread.

The cats are maybe a connection to Arya and Catelyn? Sansa is drawn by her family and her journey is not over.

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There's Odin parallels with Sandor with the death and resurrection to gain knowledge and wisdom theme and as the Gravedigger he has presided over the dead.  They both have special horses associated with the Underworld.  

Horses, it seems to me, are hugely important to this story. I can't remember a story (besides mythology) that is so descriptive and specific with horses in the same type of manner. Even "arrogant", child-pushing Jaime is careful to inspect, and respect, horses in the story. The horse-death-journey theme is consistent throughout. I think sweetsunray wrote something up about the different types of horses and what they mean??? Check with her on that.

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Odin has been known to use disguises as Sandor did at the Twins.  His wife is sometimes called Frigga, but she has so many similarities to Freya the goddesses can often be fused as one being.  

True, which could possibly be the inspiration for George putting Sansa into hiding under a different name? Dual identity, mostly through identity struggles, is also a common theme in the story. Just a thought.

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Curiously, in that story you have "Freya," who is really Thor in disguise, slaying giants...  which is a really bizarre twist if you compare it to Sansa's prophecy of a maid slaying a giant.  Or maybe it's not that crazy when you incorporate your theory about the Mountain (the Giant) coming down in an earthquake / avalanche.  Hammer of the waters = Thor's hammer!?!  Food for thought, no? 

Odin's name and all is iterations have a general meaning of "rage, madness, fury," which are very Hound-like attributes.  As I've before listed some similarities between BR and Sandor, there's also parallels between BR and Odin.  Again the death and rebirth to gain wisdom and knowledge, sacrifice of an eye, sacrifice of the self on a special tree, sorcery, shape-shifting, and being a seer.  So there's probaly a BR - Odin - Sandor triangle going on here in that Odin is also associated with accompanying wolves and ravens.  

You were right about not needing the glamor inside Winterfell as no one south of the wall would recognize Mance.  He did it before at the King's feast in Winterfell when he disguised himself a singer.  Presumably he still has a the ruby and bones, which he may need later to extract himself.  I am by no means an expert on the Pink Letter and I'm still trying to get through ADWD if Mance's fate is as it says.

I would just also add the Littlefinger hovers over both these two story arcs as he is directly responsible for the false brides in the respective situations.  He's also responsible for the deaths of the previous heads of both Houses Stark and Arryn:  Ned, Jon, and Lysa.  

Another figure in the Freya myth is a... wait for it... giant who wants to make Freya his wife- a jotunn! There are a few different kinds of elemental giants in the Norse myths, and it does depend a little on what region you are reading from (just like the spelling of names). Hmmmm, sounds kinda familiar.

(OH, and sorry if this is repeat info in this thread. I have been following a few things while also working here and may have missed some quick moving information).

Oh, and your word play on Freya/Lady/Sansa and Sandor/Odin is great!:thumbsup: I love when I find stuff like that!

16 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

 

I would just add that being considered dead is one of the safest options in the books. Almost all Stark children left are presumed dead at some point of the story: Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon. And this "dead" status kept them away from real death or much bigger troubles.

I know, right? Better dead than sorry! Their "death" is preserving their life.

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Freyja is also a war goddess, the counterfigure of Odin. Valkyries choose whether the slain go to Freyja's castle or Odin's Walhalla. And she has a cart that's pulled by 2 cats. She was accused of sleeping with her twin brother.

Could this be a connection to Sansa being accused of sleeping with her married-in Uncle Creepyfinger? This accusation did result in a death. Loki has a tendency to accuse lots of females of being promiscuous, kinda like Lysa in that sense. It seems more and more that Sansa as Freya is battling or having to outwit many figures that each have one or another aspect of Loki. Kinda like one Freya against 4 or 5 malformed Loki's.

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But yes, there's a myth where Thor borrows Freyja's falcon feathered garb and pretends to be Freyja (with a veil), after a giant asks Freyja as a price for the hammer he stole from Thor. So, dressed as Freyja he goes to the giant (with Loki, this was Loki's plan), pretending to be his bride-to-be, all in order to get his hammer back. The giant does remark that Freyja is rather big and rough in her ways, and scrunges food and drinks a lot. Loki tells the giant that Freyja was so happy when she first heard the news she hadn't eaten for 7 days and 7 nights. When the giants are drunk enough, Thor as Freyja asks for the hammer and then kills all the giants there.

Aah! This part also sounds so much like what we see Sansa doing now (loosely). She is acting as a surrogate mother to Robin (another bird type in real life) to trick Littlefinger, who is remarking at how much Sansa has learned (big and rough in her ways?), and LF is hoarding food, and the drunk part reminds me of Robin and the sweetsleep- obviously reworked a little- but basically the sweetsleep as drunk and then Freya brings the hammer down on the giant, Littlefinger. 

Sidenote: in some versions of this myth, Freya not only has a falcon cloak, she can skinchange into a falcon. Hmmmm, sounds kinda familiar.

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But yes, I thought the parallel with Mance on an Arya rescue mission and using a glamor was obvious. Though Mance is not actually using the glamor in WF. He mostly used it at CB. Mance would use the glamor to leave WF probably though.

I have asked this before in another thread, a long time ago, but do we know if Mance still has the ruby with him? I never got a real answer. I agree that he is not using it in any Theon POV chapters, but that doesn't mean much if he still has it and for some reason can take it off and on at will.

 

A few other general bits about Freya:

  1. Arryn words are "As high as honor". Freya is associated with the High, a group of three that sit on thrones and answer questions. Could also be a connection to Stone, Snow, and Sky, and/or the Lords Declarent?
  2. Freya is associated with weeping and tears= Tears of Lys, Alyssa's Tears
  3. Freya is into love songs and people pray to her concerning love.
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41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Could this be a connection to Sansa being accused of sleeping with her married-in Uncle Creepyfinger? This accusation did result in a death. Loki has a tendency to accuse lots of females of being promiscuous, kinda like Lysa in that sense. It seems more and more that Sansa as Freya is battling or having to outwit many figures that each have one or another aspect of Loki. Kinda like one Freya against 4 or 5 malformed Loki's.

I guess LF has a lot of Loki's characteristics in the books. Loki is a trickster god.  Loki sometimes helps the gods and sometimes behaves maliciously towards them - LF's behavior with basically everyone. Accusing females of being promiscuos - LF bragging about taking Cat's virginity and the role of brothel's owner.

In Völuspá poem of Great Edda Loki has been kicked out from the gods' feast and promised to return to the feast will start a quarrel among the gods, and "mix their mead with malice." LF kicked out of Riverrun by Lord Hoster does basically the same years after. Loki is responsible for death of good God Baldr.

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1 minute ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I guess LF has a lot of Loki's characteristics in the books. Loki is a trickster god.  Loki sometimes helps the gods and sometimes behaves in a malicious manner towards them - LF's behavior with basically everyone. Accusing females of being promiscuos - LF bragging about taking Cat's virginity and the role of brothel's owner.

YES! It wasn't in my mind at the time, but this would be consistent with Loki a là Littlefinger.

1 minute ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

In Völuspá poem of Great Edda Loki  had been kicked out from the gods' feast and promised to return to the feast will induce quarrelling among the gods, and "mix their mead with malice." LF kicked out of Riverrun by Lord Hoster does basically the same years after. Loki is responsible for death of good God Baldr.

Mead mixed with malice = Sweetmilk? I know it is widely speculated that Sweetrobin is purposely being poisined with Sweetsleep and if he dies, then chaos could ensue.

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

YES! It wasn't in my mind at the time, but this would be consistent with Loki a là Littlefinger.

Mead mixed with malice = Sweetmilk? I know it is widely speculated that Sweetrobin is purposely being poisined with Sweetsleep and if he dies, then chaos could ensue.

Yes, sweetmilk. Or Arbour gold and lies. Or figuratively, acting nicely and helpfully and then stabbing in the back.

There are a lot of theories about sweetmilk and SR, including the one that he got used to sweetmilk through Lysa's breastmilk. Anyway, it's a mean of controlling and manipulating SR.

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A quick note on the Hammer of the Waters and Thor's Hammer - yes. Same deal. That's one of the many things digesting that the thunderbolt of the storm god - Thor being a storm god - is the same as the Hammer of the Waters. Same event. Fire from the sky, smashing the land. Sea dragon, same thing - a dragon (meteor) that drowns whole islands. Durran Durrandon, the first Storm King, calls down a gale and tempest by stealing a heavenly maiden - same story. He stole a moon maiden which provoked a tsunami - that's the tsunami that would have raced up the newly formed Narrow Sea after the Hammer of the waters. And once again it is a storm king / storm god calling down the disaster. 

I wrote a lot about that in two of my recent podcasts, if anyone has heard those. 

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I'm also gong to try to do an exhaustive analysis on the Odin / Yggdrasil basis of the weirwoods and greenseers, which I see many have caught on to (it's obvious of you know Odin's myth of course). But I have not really seen anyone connect the dots adequately regarding the idea of a astral projection horse which is also a gallows, and that is at the heart of the horse ideas in the story. The Stallion Who Mounts the World is Odin's Horse, which is Yggdrasil. It's an astral precision horse which allows the seer to literally mount the world. It's going to be a fun one. 

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50 minutes ago, LmL said:

I'm also gong to try to do an exhaustive analysis on the Odin / Yggdrasil basis of the weirwoods and greenseers, which I see many have caught on to (it's obvious of you know Odin's myth of course). But I have not really seen anyone connect the dots adequately regarding the idea of a astral projection horse which is also a gallows, and that is at the heart of the horse ideas in the story. The Stallion Who Mounts the World is Odin's Horse, which is Yggdrasil. It's an astral precision horse which allows the seer to literally mount the world. It's going to be a fun one. 

I think there are two interpretations of the name Yggdrasil (as with most of the Norse stuff:huh:). Something like Odin's horse, and Terrible Tree because Odin hung (gallows) himself from the tree for 9(?) days seeking knowledge. The theme of slipping skin/consciousness for knowledge seems to be connected. Just a quick answer before I have to run off today. I'm sure others will have more detail to add :thumbsup:

 

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@sweetsunray Like Idunn, both Arya and Sansa are associated with apples/fruit in their arcs.  The youth of both maidens is a huge factor in their arcs of both illiciting protective responses from allies as well as temptation from those that want to covet them and use them for their own purposes.  As for Cersei and her boar.... well she ate him, which just goes to show what happens to boars that serve that goddess. :lol:

There's another goddess of youth that has similarities to Idunn, Freya, and both sisters.  The Greek Goddess Hebe was the daughter of Hera and Zeus.  She wasn't just the goddess of youth, but was also the goddess of forgiveness, pardons, and freeing prisoners.  Sansa begs for her fathers life and secures a pardon for Dontos.  Arya also frees prisoners like Ja'qen from the burning wagon and the men at Harrenhal.  She's even given Sandor a pardon of sorts by taking him off her list.  Hebe was also a cupbearer of a chalice of ambrosia, much like Idunn's apples.  Arya was a cupbearer at Harrenhal for Roose Bolton, though he liked to get his vitality and youth from regular leechings.  Hebe can also skin change into an eagle.  I mentioned the rowan tree in connection with Norse mythology of saving Thor from being swept away in the Underworld, but it's also connected to Hebe.  Some demons stole her chalice of ambrosia and the gods sent eagles to retrieve it.  In the battle with the demons, their feathers and blood fell to earth to become rowan trees as their leaves are supposed to look like feathers and their berries drops of blood.  Eagles are also associated with thunder/lightning gods Zeus.  @LmL Oh look!  A Maiden goddess, battle in heaven, eagles as storm god stand-ins, projectiles falling to earth, trees associated with the gods and blood. Rowans have red berries and white flowers.  There's also an eagle that is supposed to perch atop Yggdrasil and also a magic squirrel named Ratatoskr that runs up and down the tree delivering messages between the eagle and the wyrm (serpent/dragon) that dwells at the roots.  There is a "dragon" that dwells in the roots of a weirwood, Blood Raven.  Maybe we also have a squirrel too... squirrel = flying mouse = Mad Mouse = Mad as nickname for people associated with sorcery / fire of the gods.    

As a side note and I don't want to get too off topic, Hebe was also the wife of Heracles after his mortal body died and he was reborn/ascended to god-status after a life of labors and heroic acts in atonement for the killing of his own children after being driven mad by Hera.  While, not the same circumstances, it's Cersei's (as Hera) rage that causes the order for Sandor to kill a child, a crime which he must atone for.  There's a lot more similaries, but too many to list them all here.  

@The Fattest Leech Nice work with sweet on Brunhilde/Sigurd and the valkyries.  I would say both Arya and Sansa have some valkyrie attributes.  Arya probably most obviously with her martial training and as a Faceless Man (although they are not supposed to choose their targets) she goes rogue and uses her own judgement to determine who should die.  Sansa is more symbollic as a shieldmaiden with her skin turning from porcelain, to ivory, to steel and her lady's armor of courtesy.  She's also made decisions of life and death for other people, but more often who should live.  I also read a lot of sweet's essays on horses.  There's actually not that many horses that get to have names in the book I don't think, so Stranger is probably the best known and probably most significant.  He's a blasphemous beast from the Underworld fit for a hell-hound master.  He reminds me also of Bucephalus, the nasty stallion that was tamed by Alexander (has a similar sound to Sandor) the Great. Bucephalus was also supposed to be decended from the man-eating Mares of Thrace that Heracles had to steal as one of his labors.  Who also has special mounts associated with the dead and the Underworld?  Dany!  Her dragons are all named after dead people and they were born in Drogo's funeral pyre.      

@Ashes Of Westeros  Loki's dual nature of sometimes being helpful and but mostly causing chaos and discord would be exactly how Sansa describes Petyr's dual nature between Petyr and Littlefinger.  He is a mockingbird, an imitator, which is a type of metaphoric diguise or shapeshifting.  The "lies and Arbor Gold" is definitely mixing malice in the mead as his lies are self-serving and will most likely end up badly for those that drink it up.  I would say in regards to the sweetmilk, it's not really being used as a poison to actively try to kill SR.  It's more like reckless endangerment.  The FM do list anti-convulsant properties to sweetsleep.  It's Petyr's typical hands clean approach to dealing with SR's shaking.  SR is his puppet that secures his legitimacy as Lord Protector for the present time.  SR cannot appear to be ill in front of his subjects or they can question LF's fitness to be responsible for their lord's welfare.  It was already suggested by one lord that SR might be in better care under another, more experienced maester.  I agree, as Colemon seems like a weak-willed doormat who will protest with all the fury of a wet noodle.  Compare him to the way Maester Luwin handles paralyzed Bran who insists he should still act like a proper lord. Colemon suggests breastmilk and strapping a knocked-out SR to a mule like a sack of corn in front of his people.  <_<  SR dying too soon and unpredictably actually doesn't help LF at all.  The sweetmilk is just a means to an end to keep up appearances in the moment and he doesn't care what the long term affects are.  It would probably require a massive dose to kill SR at this point because of his tolerance level.  But Sansa, while not really comprehending what Colemon is getting at with SR's tolerance levels, acts more instinctively with preventing shaking through what I would describe as cognitive-behavioral therapy, which is a highly effective, drug-free, real world treatment for the anxiety that brings on the shaking fits.  Basically, CBT works by the premise that every behavior is preceded by a thought.  If you want to change the behavior, change the thought.  She uses the story of the Winged Knight and his bravery to change SR's thinking about himself to inspire better and more lordly behavior.  She calls him brave when he's scared.  Calls him strong when he looks frail.  She calls him her Winged Knight.  When she uses this method, he doesn't have a fit and behaves much better.  This relates Sansa back to the goddess of youth who has the magic apples or ambrosia that restores vitality.  She takes people back to their youth or origins before things went bad and infuses them with new life.  So there's the goddess working her magic as the anti-Loki and the ambrosia as the anti-sweetmilk.  Is it a kind of "lies and Arbor Gold"?  Yeah, sort of, without any ill-intent.  The story is full of themes of lies with honor and kindness to do good.  Definitely not LF's kind of lies.  Sorry I went on so long about this part.:rolleyes:         

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24 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@sweetsunray Like Idunn, both Arya and Sansa are associated with apples/fruit in their arcs.  The youth of both maidens is a huge factor in their arcs of both illiciting protective responses from allies as well as temptation from those that want to covet them and use them for their own purposes.  As for Cersei and her boar.... well she ate him, which just goes to show what happens to boars that serve that goddess. :lol:

There's another goddess of youth that has similarities to Idunn, Freya, and both sisters.  The Greek Goddess Hebe was the daughter of Hera and Zeus.  She wasn't just the goddess of youth, but was also the goddess of forgiveness, pardons, and freeing prisoners.  Sansa begs for her fathers life and secures a pardon for Dontos.  Arya also frees prisoners like Ja'qen from the burning wagon and the men at Harrenhal.  She's even given Sandor a pardon of sorts by taking him off her list.  Hebe was also a cupbearer of a chalice of ambrosia, much like Idunn's apples.  Arya was a cupbearer at Harrenhal for Roose Bolton, though he liked to get his vitality and youth from regular leechings.  Hebe can also skin change into an eagle.  I mentioned the rowan tree in connection with Norse mythology of saving Thor from being swept away in the Underworld, but it's also connected to Hebe.  Some demons stole her chalice of ambrosia and the gods sent eagles to retrieve it.  In the battle with the demons, their feathers and blood fell to earth to become rowan trees as their leaves are supposed to look like feathers and their berries drops of blood.  Eagles are also associated with thunder/lightning gods Zeus.  @LmL Oh look!  A Maiden goddess, battle in heaven, eagles as storm god stand-ins, projectiles falling to earth, trees associated with the gods and blood. Rowans have red berries and white flowers.  There's also an eagle that is supposed to perch atop Yggdrasil and also a magic squirrel named Ratatoskr that runs up and down the tree delivering messages between the eagle and the wyrm (serpent/dragon) that dwells at the roots.  There is a "dragon" that dwells in the roots of a weirwood, Blood Raven.  Maybe we also have a squirrel too... squirrel = flying mouse = Mad Mouse = Mad as nickname for people associated with sorcery / fire of the gods.    

As a side note and I don't want to get too off topic, Hebe was also the wife of Heracles after his mortal body died and he was reborn/ascended to god-status after a life of labors and heroic acts in atonement for the killing of his own children after being driven mad by Hera.  While, not the same circumstances, it's Cersei's (as Hera) rage that causes the order for Sandor to kill a child, a crime which he must atone for.  There's a lot more similaries, but too many to list them all here.  

@The Fattest Leech Nice work with sweet on Brunhilde/Sigurd and the valkyries.  I would say both Arya and Sansa have some valkyrie attributes.  Arya probably most obviously with her martial training and as a Faceless Man (although they are not supposed to choose their targets) she goes rogue and uses her own judgement to determine who should die.  Sansa is more symbollic as a shieldmaiden with her skin turning from porcelain, to ivory, to steel and her lady's armor of courtesy.  She's also made decisions of life and death for other people, but more often who should live.

@Ashes Of Westeros  Loki's dual nature of sometimes being helpful and but mostly causing chaos and discord would be exactly how Sansa describes Petyr's dual nature between Petyr and Littlefinger.  He is a mockingbird, an imitator, which is a type of metaphoric diguise or shapeshifting.  The "lies and Arbor Gold" is definitely mixing malice in the mead as his lies are self-serving and will most likely end up badly for those that drink it up.  I would say in regards to the sweetmilk, it's not really being used as a poison to actively try to kill SR.  It's more like reckless endangerment.  The FM do list anti-convulsant properties to sweetsleep.  It's Petyr's typical hands clean approach to dealing with SR's shaking.  SR is his puppet that secures his legitimacy as Lord Protector for the present time.  SR cannot appear to be ill in front of his subjects or they can question LF's fitness to be responsible for their lord's welfare.  It was already suggested by one lord that SR might be in better care under another, more experienced maester.  I agree, as Colemon seems like a weak-willed doormat who will protest with all the fury of a wet noodle.  Compare him to the way Maester Luwin handles paralyzed Bran who insists he should still act like a proper lord. Colemon suggests breastmilk and strapping a knocked-out SR to a mule like a sack of corn in front of his people.  <_<  SR dying too soon and unpredictably actually doesn't help LF at all.  The sweetmilk is just a means to an end to keep up appearances in the moment and he doesn't care what the long term affects are.  It would probably require a massive dose to kill SR at this point because of his tolerance level.  But Sansa, while not really comprehending what Colemon is getting at with SR's tolerance levels, acts more instinctively with preventing shaking through what I would describe as cognitive-behavioral therapy, which is a highly effective, drug-free, real world treatment for the anxiety that brings on the shaking fits.  Basically, CBT works by the premise that every behavior is preceded by a thought.  If you want to change the behavior, change the thought.  She uses the story of the Winged Knight and his bravery to change SR's thinking about himself to inspire better and more lordly behavior.  She calls him brave when he's scared.  Calls him strong when he looks frail.  She calls him her Winged Knight.  When she uses this method, he doesn't have a fit and behaves much better.  This relates Sansa back to the goddess of youth who has the magic apples or ambrosia that restores vitality.  She takes people back to their youth or origins before things went bad and infuses them with new life.  So there's the goddess working her magic as the anti-Loki and the ambrosia as the anti-sweetmilk.  Is it a kind of "lies and Arbor Gold"?  Yeah, sort of, without any ill-intent.  The story is full of themes of lies with honor and kindness to do good.  Definitely not LF's kind of lies.  Sorry I went on so long about this part.:rolleyes:         

Man how long did it take you to write that post. Usually i just forget what i'm saying after ice typed the entire message. Well run out of things to say.

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1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

although they are not supposed to choose their targets

That changed over time. Initially they were old hags who only chose which slain went to Freyja's palace and which to Odin's. But they grew younger, more beautiful (probably because the northmen wanted the cupbearers at Walhalla to be pretty young things rather than crones), and acquired more and more Norn powers. They got to choose who died in battle and how. That they gained power to decide the battle is evident since the battle would be dedicated to a Valkyrie believed to have been present. They were however, supposed to let the side win they knew Odin wanted to win. That was Brunhilde's error - she had vowed to a mortal man to always let him win, but the battle was supposed to go against him, and she made him win, and so Odin stripped her from being a Valkyrie and made her mortal.

There is no "right" way of interpretation, since the Northmen themselves altered the mythology. It's no more wrong to say Valkyries chose who died and who lived at battle, than saying that Persephone was Demeter's daughter, even though originally in the pre-classic tradition the daughter was the much wilder Despoina. Myths changed. And George is certainly free to pick what he wants from it.

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

she goes rogue and uses her own judgement to determine who should die.

And to this I completely disagree. She followed her intuition when she killed Dareon, but tried to rationalize it afterward with "he was a deserter". She's not punished for killing Dareon, but the kindly man strongly imprints it on her that she shouldn't make up reasons that are man's laws or other rationalisations. Her blinding was a step and speedied training. We even get earlier hints that other acolytes also goes through the blinding experience. Analysis of their teachings, suggests they're taeching her to follow her heart's intuition, because that's how she knows someone is marked by the Many Faced God (Odin) for death.

 

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

There's actually not that many horses that get to have names in the book I don't think

Aside from Stranger, there's Dancer, Smiler, Craven, Honor and Glory. But it's not just the ones that get named. Even those that aren't named then to show physical or character related attributes to their rider. He starts out in aCoK with Smiler, then he rides a stot to Moat Cailin with knock knees and his ribs sticking out (the horse version of Theon physical state) and the mare he rides to Barrowhal together with Roose is meek, and meek rymes with Reek. Arya calls her horse Craven. While she vocally blames Sandor, she considers herself a craven for not saving her mother.

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28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Aside from Stranger, there's Dancer, Smiler, Craven, Honor and Glory. But it's not just the ones that get named. Even those that aren't named then to show physical or character related attributes to their rider. He starts out in aCoK with Smiler, then he rides a stot to Moat Cailin with knock knees and his ribs sticking out (the horse version of Theon physical state) and the mare he rides to Barrowhal together with Roose is meek, and meek rymes with Reek. Arya calls her horse Craven. While she vocally blames Sandor, she considers herself a craven for not saving her mother.

And in the novella's Dunk has Chestnut, Thunder and then Maester (a mule ;)). Dunk worked hard to keep those horses in good condition, well fed and even planned to ransom them back when he lost them.

And Dunk and Rohanne Webber maybe, almost got IT on in her horse stables (where he took a long cut of her hair).

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23 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

If we're making a triangle between Freya - Mad Danelle - Sansa, there's some other interesting details.  Freya has a boar that she rides (ahem) named Hildisvíni, her "battle swine."  The boar is actually a devotee of Freya's worship in disguise named Óttar.  There are a ton of people in disguises in Norse mythology.  He's very pious in his worship of the Goddess.  Freya in return takes Óttar to a giantess and seer to tell him of his ancestry.  It's theorized that Óttar's name may actually be related to Freya's husband,  Óðr, which some theorize is another version of Odin.  Óðr name has similarities in meaning to the ones listed for Odin "frantic, madness," but also has the added layer of being a noun that means "song or poetry."  So what does any of this have to do with anything?

I already made an association of the boar that Brienne sees the in the mural at Duskendale with Sandor / the Gravedigger.  This adds even more layer of meaning to the boar if you consider Sandor in his own way has been a devotee of Sansa.  In KL he was frequently near her and helping her, not to mention she rode away with him at the bread riots.  What does Sansa do for him in return?  She makes him recall his ancestry and the pride he had in the heroic act of his grandfather when she asks him why he lets people call him a dog.  In his monologue about the three dogs that died in the autumn grass, Sandor has a very poetic turn of phrase and of course he wants the song from Sansa.  In a sense, Sandor is metaphoric bard (Bael the Bard!) which parallels him with our bard in the Winterfell arc, Mance.    

Interestingly also Freya spends most of the time seperated from Óðr as they both travel to seperate lands full of strangers.  Yet Freya is always looking for Óðr.  He's not just listed as her husband in the stories, but also her lover.  Freya's sexuality is a major part of her identity as is Sansa's.  While Sansa is not literally looking for Sandor, he's frequently in her thoughts and she makes comparisons and associations with other people to him and she does wonder what became of him.  That brings us back to Óttar, the devoted worshipper of Freya, in a religious setting and Sandor as a novice in the brotherhood on the QI.  I had orignally thought the boar was related to the Gravedigger as a strong animal that is known for digging up the earth and it was also suggested the boar represents regime change/upheaval (death of Robert Baratheon).  Boar = disguised worshipper of the Goddess is just icing on the cake.  So Freya means "Lady" (obvious associations with Sansa) who is married to Óðr or Odin ....   

OMG.... The play on words!!!!   Sandor.... San + taking the "d" from the middle of Odin + Óðr .... husband/lover of Sansa, the Lady, or Freya.         

Sansa shares aspects with both Idunn and Skadi.  Idunn was kidnapped from Asgard (King's Landing) by Thjazi, a giant (Titan of Braavos) disguised as a bird (mockingbird) and hidden in a great mountain (Eyrie/The Vale).  Skadi was Thjazi's daughter (Alayne Stone).  Skadi was granted her father's seat (Harrenhal?!) in compensation for his death. She married Njordr though she never slept with him and eventually had the marriage dissolved (Tyrion?).   Skadi later remarried... Odin.  Skadi and Idunn are sometimes interpreted to be aspects of each other in this story (source coming once I find it again) just as Idunn and Freyja are considered to  aspects of one another.  So by extension, Skadi could be interpreted as an aspect of Freyja (Skadi > Idunn > Freyja).  Technically, Skadi and Freyja married the same god, no? 

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@sweetsunray  I was referring to the FM who (I initially believed) were not supposed to choose targets on their own.  The choosing of course is the whole point of being a valkyrie.  Forgive me, I'm not an expert on the details of Arya's story.  I will have to read it again, but I thought the killing of Dareon was in a way personal to Arya because he was a NW deserter.  In a sense, by deserting the NW he is deserting or betraying her brother, Jon.  The personal nature of it seemed to me like "going rogue."  Not that I think the FM aren't without their own amount of bullshit.  I don't think anyone can truly obliterate the Self.  In hindsight, what you are saying makes sense.  Ja'qen does give Arya a choice in who should die in the three lives that he owes her.  

@The Fattest Leech and sweet, I derped again on the horse names.  To be fair, I was mainly focused on mounts associated with death, Underworld, and Odin connections, both horses and dragons as the dragons are intended to be mounts  ;) I think there may be a connection with Drogon and the stallion that mounts the world.

@Isobel Harper   Very cool. Thank you for bringing up Skadi.  I think we're probably looking at a buffet table of Norse (and probably some Greek) mythology where George is picking up many elements.  We have some common elements of maidens, giants, bride stealing, trickster characters and heroes in disguise.  I like that you made the comparison between Njordr and Tyrion.  It's very true that Sansa and Tyrion had really nothing in common.  Even in the mythology the marriage is kind of put upon Skadi without knowing her groom in advance and finding they had nothing in common.  There's definitely different aspects of Loki in different characters as well as Odin.  There's definitely different aspects of Maiden goddesses.  

@Wrl6199 I spend a shameful amount of time thinking about this stuff.

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14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The cats are maybe a connection to Arya and Catelyn?

Well for sure Arya has skin changed into cats and she became for a time Cat of the Canals.  When Sansa has to assume a bastard identity, she initially drawn to call herself Catelyn, but Petyr makes her change it to his mother, Alayne.  I would say both Arya and Cat have some feline  aspects of acting by intuition, refusal to be fully tamed, and independence to their personalities.  When Catelyn dies and becomes Lady Stoneheart, she's a revanent, or a "shadow cat."  The first time Brienne encounters LSH it's in a cave.  Shadowcats make lairs in caves and are drawn to the smell of blood.  Arya coming into a very dark period in her arc is also like a shadowcat.  Both LSH and Arya have become stalking, dangerous predators arisen from the Underworld, LSH literally dead and Arya symbollicly as she's assumed dead and "no one."        

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1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

was referring to the FM who (I initially believed) were not supposed to choose targets on their own.  The choosing of course is the whole point of being a valkyrie.  Forgive me, I'm not an expert on the details of Arya's story.  I will have to read it again, but I thought the killing of Dareon was in a way personal to Arya because he was a NW deserter.  In a sense, by deserting the NW he is deserting or betraying her brother, Jon.  The personal nature of it seemed to me like "going rogue."  Not that I think the FM aren't without their own amount of bullshit.  I don't think anyone can truly obliterate the Self.  In hindsight, what you are saying makes sense.  Ja'qen does give Arya a choice in who should die in the three lives that he owes her.

She says to the kindly man and herself afterwards it's because he's a deserter of the NW. But the scene of the night she murders him, shows a diferent tale. She is watching trying to seduce young Lanna with the typical lies he tells to women and she knows of the fight he had with Sam.

The First of the FM chose targets. Someone in the HoBaW decides what prayer will be answered. I won't go into too much of it here, but you can find a link to my essay Valkyrie of the FM theory in my sig for a deeper analysis.

I don't think Sansa has so much of the Valkyrie in her (she's never a cupbearer for example), but she has Norn features. I've proposed that Winterfell's godswood has pointers to the Urdrbrunnr (except a black colored one here), with Winterfell having much akin with Walhalla (the crypts + Theon's WF feast nightmare). If true then we need 3 Fates from WF. And I think George conflated Greek Fates with the 3 main Norns of Norse mythology in this, because of the "sowing", "needle" references. And thus a crone, a mother and a maiden. At the start of aGoT, the crone is Old Nan and Catelyn is the mother, with Arya already being the more perceptive of the two sisters and thus already taking the maiden-norn place. But Old Nan disappears (and is imo most likely dead), and Cat is resurrected as LS and thus the crone-norn. This is also the time that Sansa starts to get in touch with WF in her heart again and becomes Sweetrobin's surrogate mother.  So, the 3 fates/norns of WF are Stoneheart, Sansa and Arya, with Arya being a Valkyrie too. I'd say she features as Skuld. 

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