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Choose to forgive one


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2 hours ago, John Doe said:

How can people forgive Cersei because she is insane yet ignore that the Mountain is so super agressive because of his constant headaches. And isn't Ramsay insane too? What about Roose?

I think the headache thing with Gregor has to be taken under consideration. My hesitation with it is we don't know at this point if that's what actually causing his behavior. I mean was he having these headaches when he was barely a teenager and stuffed Sandor's head into burning coals. Yeah maybe  he's had some tumor pressing down on his hypothalamus or something since he was a child and it's gotten worse with age. Or maybe he's always been ruthless and a tumor developed later on in life that made it worse. Or maybe he's just a ruthless man who just happens to suffer from migraines. We don't know at this point. I think Qyburn will give us a clearer answer at some point but until then I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think Ramsay or Roose are operating under delusions or paranoia like Cersei. Ramsay just enjoys hurting people (call him a sadist or sociopath I don't think it matters). Roose I would put in the same box as Tywin. Questionable morals, but not killing for sport or pleasure, just doing what it takes to reach his goals.

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34 minutes ago, Danka Fan said:

Agree.  And Robb did give him cause.  As someone else said above, Walder has no "priors" like the other contenders.  This is an easy choice for me.  I forgive Walder Frey.

Sorry, but if you reply to "screw you!" by murdering an entire family (plus employees plus whoever walks by), I do not want tt to live anywhere near you :P

 

Älso... You do not know much about the history of Walder - apart form Late Lord Frey being seen as highly suspicious person.

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Roose is a guy who practices first night, he is a guy who raped a woman under her husband's corpse because she hid from him that she had married. Roose hired people to rebuild Winterfell and then killed them all off because he didn't want to pay them. Roose is a psychopath who has no emotions, no empathy. He is not killing for sport or anything but his reasons for killing are sometimes appalling. I like Roose as a character, he is an interesting guy, a smart pragmatist who I enjoy to read about but while he is similar to Tywin in that front, Tywin is not a cold-blooded psychopath, he wouldn't rape himself anyone, I doubt he would even tolerate a first night practice and he would have payed a fortune to those who had rebuilt his castle. Roose and Tywin are both cold-blooded pragmatists who have no qualms in killing and even ordering to rape to achieve their goals but Roose's pragmatism is much more scary and cruel than Tywin's and his justifications for terrible things are completely on another level of evil. Roose is a much worse person than Tywin.

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From most to least forgivable for me : Walder Frey, Cersei, Roose, Ramsay, Gregor.

Walder Frey is the only one of the bunch who I might consider forgivable, although if I had to have dinner with one of them I'd choose Cersei or Roose over him.

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Roose. His regicide is debatable as I think that he never swore fealty. Also, he did not kill his own guests like Walder.

All have committed murder, and some have also committed rape (that we know of), so I cannot really make decisions based on their worst offenses.

They are all bad news, but if I had to give a pass to one, it would be Roose.

 

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5 minutes ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Roose. His regicide is debatable as I think that he never swore fealty. Also, he did not kill his own guests like Walder.

All have committed murder, and some have also committed rape (that we know of), so I cannot really make decisions based on their worst offenses.

They are all bad news, but if I had to give a pass to one, it would be Roose.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think Roose swore fealty to Robb as king because he wasn't there to do so; however, Robb was Roose's liege lord regardless of Robb being a king so it broke an oath either way. But Roose was my second choice after Cersei.

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If I'm forced to choose one its gotta be Walder, certainly an overreaction but Robb dishonored him, his daughters and his house. Cat placed Robb in a situation which he had a choice, he chose to accept the terms to cross and then made the choice to be honorable when it came to Jeyne, it was a very poor choice..

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4 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Sorry, but if you reply to "screw you!" by murdering an entire family (plus employees plus whoever walks by), I do not want tt to live anywhere near you :P

Robb and Cat, who was supposed to be taken prisoner until she murdered his grandson.  Not an entire family, everyone else was a soldier of some description.

And many of these same people had no objections to destroying the Twins when they were trying to stay neutral in AGOT

Damn the man," Robb swore. "If the old fool does not relent and let me cross, he'll leave me no choice but to storm his walls. I'll pull the Twins down around his ears if I have to, we'll see how well he likes that!"

and some even wanted to kill them in the Westerlands after Robb had betrayed them

"You have done House Frey a grievous insult, Robb."
"I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me, and Olyvar was as loyal a squire as any king could want. He asked to stay with me, but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . ."
"Fighting your own in the midst of your enemies?" she said. "It would have been the end of you."
4 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Älso... You do not know much about the history of Walder - apart form Late Lord Frey being seen as highly suspicious person.

Right, suspicious because he turned up late. That is hardly a huge crime, especially when Hoster only fought in that war when the rebels met his price.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Cersei:

She pretty much resorts to killing  or otherwise dispose of anyone who just might be any sort of threat to her. As a young girl she killed her friend - what exactly was the victim's crime?

I really don't think she killed her friend. I think Melara fell and Cersei either failed to get anyone in time or didnt bother to get help, I really don't think that nine year old Cersei deliberately killed someone.

 

6 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Robert's death: I don't agree that she had Robert killed because Robert was raping her. She killed Robert so that Robert wouldn't have time to discover her betrayal and treason (i.e. her children)

Which would have meant the death of those children and her self. She has no one to blame but herself for getting into that position but she was killing Robert before he could do the same to her and her children.

Both cheated on the other and had bastards but it was only a death sentence for one of them (and their offspring). The deed was done 13 years ago and it was not something she could take back. I see it as justified.

I see little wrong with her murdering Robert, killing his bastards is what is fucked up.

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5 hours ago, Maxxine said:

I think the headache thing with Gregor has to be taken under consideration. My hesitation with it is we don't know at this point if that's what actually causing his behavior. I mean was he having these headaches when he was barely a teenager and stuffed Sandor's head into burning coals. Yeah maybe  he's had some tumor pressing down on his hypothalamus or something since he was a child and it's gotten worse with age. Or maybe he's always been ruthless and a tumor developed later on in life that made it worse. Or maybe he's just a ruthless man who just happens to suffer from migraines. We don't know at this point. I think Qyburn will give us a clearer answer at some point but until then I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think Ramsay or Roose are operating under delusions or paranoia like Cersei. Ramsay just enjoys hurting people (call him a sadist or sociopath I don't think it matters). Roose I would put in the same box as Tywin. Questionable morals, but not killing for sport or pleasure, just doing what it takes to reach his goals.

Roose is playing with people, Tywin is doing what he does for his legacy, I think there is a big difference between the two, even though their action seem similiar. 

 

And I think Roose and Ramsay fulfill the definition of psychopaths, so they definitely aren't mentally sane. Based on mental health, Walder would be the only one without much of an excuse imo.

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9 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

When did she sell children into slavery? I certainly don't remember that one.

I've mixed up. It was the mother who she sold to slavery and not the kids. She got the kids killed. But apparently you don't believe this story anyway :dunno:

9 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

That mightn't have been her only goal, truly, she may have been punishing them for attempting to trick her, but they were still in need of punishment.

Do you seriously believe that it was even one of her goals, or even something that had popped into her mind?

9 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

She never asked Jaime to kill or maim Arya. Jaime thinks that she may have implied that she wanted such a thing. "I want," is all she said. It probably was Jaime that she was referring to, as he first thought, but he believed it to be killing Arya only after he'd become disillusioned with her.

I am sorry but this is where I'll stop arguing with you about Cersei because your defence of her start to become plainly ridiculous. It seems to me that Cersei in your had is a Cersei that you wished existed and not what GRRM actually intended to portray and now you are desperately trying to match these two Cerseis. At this point I am genuinely surprised you do not deny the fact that she had killed Melara which lots of people do.

Jaime did not start to believe she wanted to kill Arya after he'd become disillusioned with her (how the hell would he even come to this conclusion just based on Cersei screaming "I want"?). He went to search for Arya immediately after having sex with Cersei back in GoT with the purpose of fulfilling his sister's wish:

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"It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ." 

And back then he did not come to the conclusion that Cersei wanted to kill Arya either since Jaime believed that she meant him by "I want" and not Arya. So it's rather obvious that Cersei simply flat out asked him to do it and so he went.

58 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I really don't think that nine year old Cersei deliberately killed someone.

Why? (she was ten, by the way)

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16 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Why? (she was ten, by the way)

A combination of her age, I disagree with the idea of being born evil. Cersei to me has become worse and worse as the books have progressed and the fact that Melara dying that night actually confirms Maggie's prophesies which is something that Cersei would not want to happen.

 

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1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I really don't think she killed her friend. I think Melara fell and Cersei either failed to get anyone in time or didnt bother to get help, I really don't think that nine year old Cersei deliberately killed someone.

Hm... This wasn't my impression when I last read this scene, but perhaps. She has committed more than enough crimes with or without this one anyway.

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Which would have meant the death of those children and her self. She has no one to blame but herself for getting into that position but she was killing Robert before he could do the same to her and her children.

 

Both cheated on the other and had bastards but it was only a death sentence for one of them (and their offspring). The deed was done 13 years ago and it was not something she could take back. I see it as justified.

But it wasn't just a single mistake, like Mrs Smith getting seduced once in a lifetime during an office party. As a queen, Cersei lived an extraordinarily privileged life and she had only two duties in exchange for it all: to be a queen for her king and to do her best to give the realm a rightful crown prince, which was practically the single most important responsibility of her life as a queen. She refused to do this duty over the years. It was this decision of hers that got her in a position where she "had to kill" her husband to save her children and herself. It was her choice that got them all in trouble. That her decision backfired only years later is not an excuse. Committing a crime in order to cover a previous crime is not usually a mitigating circumstance.

Besides, it is not quite true that she didn't have a choice: Ned Stark offered her one. She could have left Westeros with her children, and she could have bought herself and her children a comfortable life in Essos. Perhaps Jaime could have joined her and they could have lived as a family, even if not a royal family. (I think Jaime might have liked the idea after getting over the first shock.) It may not have seemed a great choice at the time, but it was an alternative to murder, and - who knows? - Joffrey might have lived longer, Jaime could have kept his arm, Myrcella could have kept both her ears, Tommen might have been happier, and Cersei could have kept her dignity. None of this is certain, of course, but murdering Robert created more problems than it solved, and she did have a choice and she chose murder.  

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I see little wrong with her murdering Robert, killing his bastards is what is fucked up.

We can at least agree that killing the children was even worse than killing Robert, but I think both were crimes. 

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13 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

A combination of her age, I disagree with the idea of being born evil. Cersei to me has become worse and worse as the books have progressed and the fact that Melara dying that night actually confirms Maggie's prophesies which is something that Cersei would not want to happen.

 

This reason seem to be more of a subjective personal belief than anything. A belief that GRRM may not personally share and hence write his story accordingly. The fact that Cersei has killed Melara is heavily implied and not in a subtle way either. Plus we know that a child Cersei had no qualms with lying, was constantly torturing a baby and was threatening her servants with death. It seems to me that George's message is indeed that Cersei was born evil, even if you may disagree with the idea. Though it maybe more fair to consider that Cersei was born with mental issues which is a source of her 'evilness'.

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1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Robb and Cat, who was supposed to be taken prisoner until she murdered his grandson.  Not an entire family, everyone else was a soldier of some description.

And many of these same people had no objections to destroying the Twins when they were trying to stay neutral in AGOT

Damn the man," Robb swore. "If the old fool does not relent and let me cross, he'll leave me no choice but to storm his walls. I'll pull the Twins down around his ears if I have to, we'll see how well he likes that!"

and some even wanted to kill them in the Westerlands after Robb had betrayed them

"You have done House Frey a grievous insult, Robb."
"I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me, and Olyvar was as loyal a squire as any king could want. He asked to stay with me, but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . ."
"Fighting your own in the midst of your enemies?" she said. "It would have been the end of you."

Right, suspicious because he turned up late. That is hardly a huge crime, especially when Hoster only fought in that war when the rebels met his price.

 

 

I agree with thelittledragonthatcould.  Very good responses and replies from you.  Good job. 

I would forgive Walder Frey. 

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Roose and Walder.

Roose seems an intelligent and cool headed person but also cautious about his reputation. He wanted Robb out because he was fighting a loosing war and Roose found an opportunity to grow. He wants a peaceful land with quiet people. It is not bad unless it is euphemism for something else. Only thing against him is he is letting Ramsay lose. Though he don't love him and is using him for his own ends, it is a black mark on him.

Walder retaliated for the slight he received and was always receiving from the Starks and Tullys. He didn't plan betrayal for power it was for his family honor. 

 

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