Choose to forgive one

[Bowen Marsh]

On 8/8/2016 at 5:24 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Right, suspicious because he turned up late. That is hardly a huge crime, especially when Hoster only fought in that war when the rebels met his price.

That is correct.  Walder could have simply been late.  He wasn't late for Robb.  His sons fought bravely for Robb.  The way the Freys fulfilled their part of the bargain is beyond reproach.  

[Sullen]

Walder, easily.

Unlike the others, he has genuine grievances and reasons for his crimes. He was doubly fucked over by Robb (coerced into an alliance that put his House in jeopardy, and even then, the terms of the alliance were completely spat on by Robb), his betrayal is perfectly justified, though he did take it too far.

Roose was motivated by ambition pure and simple, and the other three are arbitrarily cruel. Walder is easily the least bad of the five.

[Equilibrium]

Roose, he is awesome, the rest are just loathsome.

Maybe Cersei is OK too, but Roose still gets my vote.

I read so many Walders I can't even.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Walder. The only bad thing he did is breaking guest right. He should have taken revenge but without breaking guest right. As Old Nan said for the rat cook:

A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive.

Merret Frey thinks that Walder, despite his weaknesses, cared for every Frey.

Roose, Ramsay, Cersei and Gregor have done much worse things.

 

[Orphalesion]

Walder. While his actions were horrible it pretty much closed one theatre  of a costly, stupid and bloody war that was destabilizing most of the continent.

He was also nowhere near as sadistic as the others listed. Dacey Mormont died quickly with an axe to the stomach, Cat's throat was slit, the others would have made them suffer for their own amusement.

[Kaibaman]

I don't know if I would forgive any of them but I certainly am willing to hear them out.

Roose: "Robb was a sinking ship and was dragging me down with him"

Ramsay: "I didn't have a happy childhood so don't judge me"

Walder: "Same as Roose, plus he promised to marry a daughter of mine but didn't"

Gregor: "Was just following order"

Cersei: "I am a woman struggling in a man's world"

[BlueNightzx]

Hard call, but i go with walder, Robb stark was very injust and unfair with him, he pretty much forced Walder to ally with him, when walder wanted neutrality, and then withdrew the advantages to walder, then he wanted to go back north to reclaim his lands, and leave the riverlands and the twins to deal with tywin's revenge, walder had very little options

i agree that breaking guest right was a douche bag move, but war is war.

[Sullen]

15 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

Hard call, but i go with walder, Robb stark was very injust and unfair with him, he pretty much forced Walder to ally with him, when walder wanted neutrality, and then withdrew the advantages to walder, then he wanted to go back north to reclaim his lands, and leave the riverlands and the twins to deal with tywin's revenge, walder had very little options

i agree that breaking guest right was a douche bag move, but war is war.

He actually wanted Walder to send his men with him to retake the North, leaving the Twins mostly undefended. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

The choice is between Cersei and Walder for me. 

Cersei

Sins - Murdered her king/husband (treason).  Cuckolded her husband for years (unfaithful wife).  Co-guilty with Jaime for attempted murder of Bran Stark (attempted murder and breaking guest rights).  Killed Melara.

Excuses - Robert was a bad husband.  Women have to take a back seat to men. 

Walder

Sins - Broke guest rights. 

Excuses - Robb refused to honor his end of the pact.  Eldest son and heir got killed while serving Robb. 

I forgive Walder.  It becomes clear why he would try hard to remain neutral when you look at the history of his family.  His father got in bed with the Butterwells to marry off a soiled daughter.  They were lucky to keep their family wealth from that bad partnership.  I don't think they were conspiring to put the Blackfyre on the throne but their association with the Butterwells put them in danger.  Walder doesn't want to put his family at risk again.  It's one thing to support the Tullys if they want to go to war with the Martells, but it is another matter entirely when Hoster Tully wants you to fight your king.  Walder had the right of it.  He swore an oath to the king.  Fast forward 17 years and the Tullys are again dragging you into conflict with the king.  Ned admitted to treason and Tully's daughter kidnapped Tywin's son.  More Stark and Tully stupidity all over again.  Robb confronts him and forces a choice.  Staying neutral became impossible.  Refuse and Robb would attack his castle and slaughter his family.  May as well make the best of a bad situation and make  a deal.  He paid and Robb didn't. 

 

[The Hoare]

On 2016-8-7 at 1:08 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

If you have to forgive one of the following, who would it be and why? Consider all their "sins" in making your choice.

(1). Roose

(2) . Ramsey

(3) . Walder

(4). Gregor

(5). Cersei

Make your choice and tell me their sin(s) in your eyes.

Thanks

Roose is pretty much the most innocent of them. He's not accused of anything more than what Robb himself haven't done, except claiming his First Night "rights"

[300 H&H Magnum]

It's not an easy question with Roose.  You can argue that Robb was wrong to rebel and Roose was serving the king all this time.  Roose was the man inside Robb's camp who was sabotaging the rebellion so it can end as soon as it can.

[BalerionTheCat]

Walder.

Roose too is doing it for his house. But I don't see it as an excuse. Roose would have been a monster in any case. He is totally devoid of humanity. Walder is not so bad. I came at the wrong time and had wrong allies. Robb errors didn't leave him with much choice.

[Weirwood Ghost]

This is a great question!

Unequivocally NOT: 

Ramsey / Walder

Unsure:

Gregor - don't know enough backstory about what shaped him nor anything directly of the way he thinks. He's just maniacal dog out for the sheer joy of carrying out orders of slaughter. People like this really exist, and they have a backstory.

Cersei - one of the most complex characters, that is well aware of what living in royalty takes, to fight for family whether it's a good fight or dirty fight. Yet she thinks nothing of the small (common) people which really irks us. At least Elizabeth I fashioned herself as mother of her people and married herself to her country, hence was loved by her commoners. Cersei is running with concurrent aristocratic conditioning, and her inflated ambitious ego, both of which are running her puppet scripted belief and faith of her complete entitlement. She's a cunt but there's a reason why she is.

If I had to forgive anyone:

Roose Bolton - Strategically as a house trying to protect itself and further itself diplomatically he needs to side with a faction (the crown - puppeteered by Lannisters) in order for his house to survive. He's the embodiment of many real world medieval houses that swapped allegiances in order to remain in faith to the crown. All houses are vying for further advancement, in his case his eyes aren't set on the iron throne, but The North. I've left theories of who he could be out of this!

[Weirwood Ghost]

8 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

It's not an easy question with Roose.  You can argue that Robb was wrong to rebel and Roose was serving the king all this time.  Roose was the man inside Robb's camp who was sabotaging the rebellion so it can end as soon as it can.

So Robb's Rebellion and Robert's Rebellion...I like that name link there =)

[Shi Qiang]

Walder Frey.  I doubt he really had any good alternatives to follow.  He was squeezed between Tywin, Robb, and Edmure when all he wanted was peace and quiet.  He had to make a deal both times.  That is one thing most readers don't understand.  Walder couldn't simply ignore Robb's offer to mend their differences.  Robb and Edmure are kin.  There will be repercussions down the road if Walder had refused to make up.  Edmure Tully would make him pay back later when the war ends.  He had to pretend to go along with the second deal and take down houses Stark and Tully. 

I like Walder Frey.  He's a funny old guy.  He put an end to the Stark campaign in the Riverlands and saved a lot more lives than the red wedding took. 

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 7/1/2017 at 8:17 AM, Weirwood Ghost said:

So Robb's Rebellion and Robert's Rebellion...I like that name link there =)

Thank you

[Pontius Pilate]

On 8/7/2016 at 0:08 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

If you have to forgive one of the following, who would it be and why? Consider all their "sins" in making your choice.

(1). Roose

(2) . Ramsey

(3) . Walder

(4). Gregor

(5). Cersei

Make your choice and tell me their sin(s) in your eyes.

Thanks

Walder.  He was the only one who was wronged by the party that he killed.  I can understand why he killed Robb.

While it is true that Robert wronged Cersei it is equally true that she was having an affair behind his back.  Both parties were violating their marriage vows. 

[marsyao]

Roose of course, he did not do anything other great Lords would not do under same circumstance 

[giant snake]

Oh tough choice.  Betrayal is the worst of all and the hardest to forgive, but the ones that aren't traitors are just maniacs and forgiveness for them is like giving it to a wild beast.  Isn't that what they say about Ramsay Bolton and the Mountain anyway?

 

Anyway I forgive and set free Roose.  He is an ambitious lord as much as any of them, but unlike the Freys he didn't aquire that through crass tricks and buy his way to power.  Plutocrats have all of the bugs but none of the features of Aristocrats, and Walder's ambition is just for ambition's sake.  

Roose, it could be argued, is upholding and pressing the ancient claim of his ancestors.  He embraces that he is part of the out-group, and he does attempt to make his power into an orderly one that recovers from the long war.  There's nothing sadistic in his motives, even though he will use cruelty as a tool of achieving his goals.  In the end, he is deliberate and unsentimental, but not without a peculiar kind of honor and cause in the end...maybe he is more loyal to his traditions and ancestors than his southern allies can understand.  Considering the long Stark/Bolton rivalry and the implied subjugation of Bolton at some point in history, his ambition seems much more understandable.  Contrast with someone who is interested on pure conquest or for a grandiose claim on all of the Kingdoms.

[Tai Pan]

On 8/8/2016 at 5:24 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Robb and Cat, who was supposed to be taken prisoner until she murdered his grandson.  Not an entire family, everyone else was a soldier of some description.

And many of these same people had no objections to destroying the Twins when they were trying to stay neutral in AGOT

Damn the man," Robb swore. "If the old fool does not relent and let me cross, he'll leave me no choice but to storm his walls. I'll pull the Twins down around his ears if I have to, we'll see how well he likes that!"

and some even wanted to kill them in the Westerlands after Robb had betrayed them

"You have done House Frey a grievous insult, Robb."

"I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me, and Olyvar was as loyal a squire as any king could want. He asked to stay with me, but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . ."

"Fighting your own in the midst of your enemies?" she said. "It would have been the end of you."

Right, suspicious because he turned up late. That is hardly a huge crime, especially when Hoster only fought in that war when the rebels met his price.

 

 

Very well, yes.  Walder Frey is easy to forgive.  Robb and his bannermen would have had no qualms attacking the Freys.  Gratitude is an alien concept to the likes of Robb and the Great Jon.