Theories About the Silent Old Man Jon Refuses to Kill

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Ceebs watching. What's the connection to this?

PS Does he do theorising in those what youare missing videos? I just figured he was clueing in book readers

He does talk about who this man is and why he is there.

[M_Tootles]

2 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

oh, so that's too out there for you? lol

No, it was just full of people doing the typical nothing to see here stuff.

[M_Tootles]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Just a question OP, have you seen Preston Jacobs' latest video?

the dorne one? yeah, started tuning out, he's missing key stuff, has no idea who oberyn really is or about the PoD, etc. Why?

[M_Tootles]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

My mistake the one before that the What you are missing 3.9.

I have not, why?

[M_Tootles]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He does talk about who this man is and why he is there.

oh shit, i'll check it out. i actually had a facepalm moment and realized a few things aren't at all mutually incompatible. so, e.g. he could be the liddle, but the liddle doesn't need to just be the liddle.

[Pain killer Jane]

23 hours ago, Seams said:

Excellent topic!

At first I thought that this old man might be someone important in disguise, and that his identity would be revealed and lead to the uncovering of Jon's parenthood or some other plot twist. I'm no longer certain that he will have a specific identity - it's possible he's an important symbolic presence and/or that Jon's failure to kill him was the thing that was necessary for the plot.

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote up some thoughts I had put together on inns. I already thought that the Queenscrown has to have a hidden significance that will become clearer later. When I was working on inns, though, I realized that the old man has taken shelter in the ruined inn. Bran and his travel companions thought about trying to stay in the ruined inn, but decided to go to the Queenscrown instead. If Bran and his group had decided to overnight in the inn, the wildlings would have tried to kill them, too.

Here's a link to my post about inns. The tl;dr summary is that inns seem to be symbolic representations about the history of the Westeros monarchy. The central symbolic inn is the inn at the crossroads, but other inns contribute details to the central history. (The Peach, for instance, may represent Renly and Stannis trying to become successors to Robert; The Inn of the Kneeling Man was built at the spot where Thorrhen Stark gave up his crown to Aegon the Conqueror.)

So this ruined inn in The Gift is at a symbolic "crossroads" where Jon and Bran or Jon and Meera almost cross paths. At one point, Jon thinks one of the Thenns is telling him, "Get back where you belong," and that he wants Jon to get into the ruined inn. Instead, Jon stares at the tower called the Queenscrown and says, "I know this place."

So the old man may be a symbol of Jon's past or his heritage, which most people seem to believe is royal in some way. He refuses to kill the old man. My inn theories are new and only half-baked, but maybe this means that Jon does not feel ready to stay at the inn (= become king) but he doesn't want to entirely "kill" his heritage. The fact that Ygritte does want to kill the old man might symbolize her desire to end this whole "kneeler" culture and do away with the idea of hereditary kings.

Because he is not named, I think the old man could appear again as a symbol. We may see another old man in Jon's arc, especially one that has something to do with an inn. Hmm. I wonder whether Craster falls into the same category of symbols? The Night's Watch men do stay at his home, so there's sort of an inn quality to his compound. In the other post, I explain how the Quiet Isle also seems to have some of the qualities of an inn, so the Elder Brother might be a parallel symbol for the old man. The Elder Brother is the kind of mentor figure who passes along information to the hero (in that case, Brienne). Although the difficult path to the Quiet Isle might make it more comparable to the Queenscrown than to the ruined inn.

If the theories about Jon's Targaryen heritage are correct, the Gift is an important area for him because it's a place where Stark land was given to Queen Alysanne to present to the Night's Watch. All of Jon's heritage and his present identity combined. Another layer of crossroads.

I'll be interested to read other people's ideas about the old man because I would really like to know who he is or what he represents.

For me the Inn always represented the concept of Shekhinah especially as the Sabbath Bride concept.  

[John Doe]

That man was Old Nan in disguise.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

7 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

No, it was just full of people doing the typical nothing to see here stuff.

Oh I thought I just linked to that one comment

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

This may be nothing, but I actually just read where Jon is later recalling the old man at Castle Black and he sees black blood pouring out of him as the lightening flashed. Black blood seems to be associated with undead. Beric Dondarrion's blood was described as black by Arya after the Hound cut him down. Gregor Clegane's veins turn black after being poisoned and Bran's vision of presumably Robert Strong had black blood pouring out of his visor. This rainstorm seems to be a little on the supernatural side. The whole north and Riverlands seems to be under a downpour of severe flooding. Seems like Bran and his group were guided to the tower by the lightening.  Jon was able to get away by some perfectly timed lightening and Bran warging into Summer to help him.  It's definitely raining buckets at the Red Wedding so that seems to be happening near the same time.  Anyone else think the old man is not actually alive? 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

34 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

This may be nothing, but I actually just read where Jon is later recalling the old man at Castle Black and he sees black blood pouring out of him as the lightening flashed. Black blood seems to be associated with undead. Beric Dondarrion's blood was described as black by Arya after the Hound cut him down. Gregor Clegane's veins turn black after being poisoned and Bran's vision of presumably Robert Strong had black blood pouring out of his visor. This rainstorm seems to be a little on the supernatural side. The whole north and Riverlands seems to be under a downpour of severe flooding. Seems like Bran and his group were guided to the tower by the lightening.  Jon was able to get away by some perfectly timed lightening and Bran warging into Summer to help him.  It's definitely raining buckets at the Red Wedding so that seems to be happening near the same time.  Anyone else think the old man is not actually alive? 

Hmm... interesting. I don't think he's alive, but it's already been very well established in the story that magicians can alter the weather. I always viewed this scene as GRRM putting his thumb on the scales to save Jon (and Bran), but maybe it was one of the characters intervening

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

7 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Hmm... interesting. I don't think he's alive, but it's already been very well established in the story that magicians can alter the weather. I always viewed this scene as GRRM putting his thumb on the scales to save Jon (and Bran), but maybe it was one of the characters intervening

I just thought it was strange the blood was described as black and most people that get their throats cut are definitely described with red blood pouring out or a red ruin of a wound. Jon says 

Quote

He remembered the old man's eyes too, and the black blood that came rushing from his throat as the storm cracked overhead.

I was wondering if he's some kind of undead-ish sentient being like Coldhands  

[Seams]

6 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I just thought it was strange the blood was described as black and most people that get their throats cut are definitely described with red blood pouring out or a red ruin of a wound. Jon says 

I was wondering if he's some kind of undead-ish sentient being like Coldhands  

I've had a similar suspicion, but I hadn't remembered that quote from Jon - nice catch! I wondered whether the old man might somehow be Mormont (is he already dead at this point?) or Ned.

Jon also speaks of himself as having black blood meaning that he is loyal to the Night's Watch:

Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard's heart. He'd had Mikken make a sword for Arya once, a bravo's blade, made small to fit her hand. Needle. (ADwD, Jon VI)

There is a reference to Arya's swordfighting technique ("stick 'em with the pointy end") in the same passage with the old man / black blood quote you found. I think GRRM presents groups of symbols like this in different contexts to help readers sort out the hidden meanings. Maybe the sword Needle and black blood need to be considered together? Along with the old man? Smiths such as Donal Noye and Mikken?

[Lurid Jester]

Just some poor bastard in the wrong place at the wrong time who forced Jon to break his cover as a wildling. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

Jon also speaks of himself as having black blood meaning that he is loyal to the Night's Watch:

Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard's heart

Yes, black does take on different meanings depending on the context.  It's funny these two meanings of black are right next to each other:

One meaning loyalty and the other meaning treacherous.  Loyal blood pumped by a deceitful heart.  He's definitely in conflict with his oaths and feelings for Ygritte.  However, Jon describing himself with black blood can also be a foreshadowing of his own return (most likely) from the dead.

I don't want to go too off topic, but it just seems to me with all the suspicious supernatural shit going on at the same time this old man has to be someone significant.  It would just be way too coincidental that this one lone rider just happens to be at a convergence point for Jon, Bran, and the wildlings.  

1.  Encompassing all of them is this massive storm that covers at least the Gift all the way to the Twins where the Red Wedding is about to take place.  In Jon and Bran's chapters the lightening strikes figure prominently.  To Bran, they almost seem like a guide to pointing them to the Queenscrown tower.  The lightening strikes flash in Jon's chapter almost signaling Jon that this is the moment to make his escape.  The point is, Jon and Bran are so close to meeting, but they are separated once again to resume their respective goals.  If this was a storm at least partially under the magical control of someone or something, it definitely didn't want Jon and Bran to meet as it may alter the courses on the roads they are on.

2.  As the wildlings are definitely testing Jon's loyalty to them by demanding he kill the old man, it seems like there is a greater test going on here.  He swore to the Half-Hand he would do everything asked of him and not balk.  This is the first time he actually weighs his duty and oaths against his own conscience.  He won't sacrifice an innocent, helpless person to obey orders or even for someone he loves even if it means his own life.  Isn't that the definition of a "true knight" as it keeps being brought up by other characters?      

3.  After Ygritte slits the old man's throat, in the confusion of the storm and the sudden appearance of Summer, Jon makes his escape and is shot in the thigh with an arrow.  Miraculously, he was able to mount the old man's horse and get away.  In fact he doesn't even remember how he got on the horse.  While that may be nothing, remember in Sam's chapter, Coldhands (althought not named yet) is on a 10 foot tall elk that kneels down to allow Sam and Gilly to mount it.  Controlling animals is definitely noted as a CotF / warg ability.  So the old man's presence, while being a test IMO, also provided Jon with the means to escape.

4.  If what I'm thinking about the old man and the black blood is true, he was already dead and probably very freshly dead.  We know from Beric Dondarrion that the manner of and time since a person's death before they are brought back matters to what kind of undead being you're going to get.  Beric originally died the first time while on his mission to bring the king's justice to the Mountain and his men and he's been on his mission for justice ever since.  But every time he dies and is brought back, he's in a much sorrier state and losing more of his old self. Catelyn had been dead 3 days and her manner of death was so traumatic that the being brought back was a shell of her former self bent on nothing but vengeance.  The Mountain / Robert Strong goes without saying.  Since the old man definitely not a wight, whoever he is, I'm guessing that some magic has intervened in that process so he could serve as the sacrificial test for Jon.  I'm guessing also he must have passed that test since he was able to escape.  

5.  At the same time as the old man is being killed, Bran has warged into Summer to check out what's going on and discovers Jon. This could have also been a test of Bran's powers.  So far he's been kinda goofing off while warging, ignoring Jojen's requests to do simple tasks to improve his control over the direwolf.  When it came down to it, Bran was able to control Summer in a fight to help save Jon who almost certainly would have died without his intervention.  Summer is also wounded in the thigh by an arrow and takes some time getting back to Bran as they make their way to the Night Fort.  There's actually a few characters that have experienced thigh wounds:

a) Jaime wounds Brienne in the thigh during their duel with his sword.  This fight certainly has a sexual subtext, the blood on her thigh representing the maiden's blood.  Ygritte shoots Jon in the thigh with her arrow, so that same symbolism is inverted as Ygritte the more experienced took Jon's virginity.  They were just recently at an inn and were dueling near a river.  A river could be construed as a sort of road that people often travel, a place where streams meet and converge.  While Brienne is the one who is marked, it's Jaime that is testing Brienne in his mind and she comes out favorably.   

b ) The Hound was wounded in the thigh after a fight at the inn with the Mountain's men.  It becomes infected and as he lays dying, he makes his confessions to Arya about his sins and regrets, while goading her to give him mercy.  He too must have passed some sort of cosmic test, because he was as the Gravedigger theory suggests, spared.  Marked and changed, just as Jon and Bran seem to be.  He also had his own moment to choose mercy with Arya while this massive storm is raging over them.  When it becomes clear what's happening at the Twins, he could have chosen to abandon Arya as she's running to the castle.  With her family brought down, she's no longer worth a ransom and he chooses to save her anyway.  He also chooses to not ransom her to the Lannisters either and protects her until his "death."    

Speaking on the Hound and he's where I'm gonna go way out on a limb and make a symbolic connection to the old man.  The Hound is often associated with the Stranger.  It's his horse's name of course and he's also feared and shunned as a bringer of death.  No one directly worships the Stranger in the sept as death is often taken as evil thing, but through Arya's chapters with the Hound, death can also go hand-in-hand with the gift of mercy.  While death is a cruel, ugly thing, it can also bring peace, end pain, and bring transition into a new form (both in literal and figurative form). The old man who none of the characters knows his identity (a stranger) and asks for mercy.  Jon would spare him but Ygritte does not, and his blood spilled is colored black, not the color of something natural.  I'm not saying the old man is literally the Stranger, just maybe symbolically and this test is happening under the watchful eye or influence of the Three Eyed Raven, while the much-foreshadowed and critical events of the Red Wedding are happening, and the violent churning storm of fate is giving all the characters it encompasses a trial.                

                         

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I likey

[YOVMO]

On August 10, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Seams said:

 

Yes to this, too! I believe that Alysanne built the Queenscrown to have a private place where she could come visit her illegitimate child (conceived and born during one of the breaks from her otherwise happy marriage to Jaehaerys). 

This might be a very petty distinction and probably has little or even no bearing on your interpretation but I do not believe (though I could be wrong) that Alysanne built Queenscrown. Rather, I think it is the case that she stayed there and to honor her they painted the crown on it

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

12 hours ago, YOVMO said:

This might be a very petty distinction and probably has little or even no bearing on your interpretation but I do not believe (though I could be wrong) that Alysanne built Queenscrown. Rather, I think it is the case that she stayed there and to honor her they painted the crown on it

Thinking about it, wouldn't painting a crown on the building give away its purpose? Although I suppose they could've done that after her death.

Also, think how excited the north got to see the dragons for the first time. Would they really not notice if Alysanne popped up with a dragon every now and then? I suppose it's possible, but... eh...

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Thinking about it, wouldn't painting a crown on the building give away its purpose? Although I suppose they could've done that after her death.

Also, think how excited the north got to see the dragons for the first time. Would they really not notice if Alysanne popped up with a dragon every now and then? I suppose it's possible, but... eh...

Yes I've thought about this. Painting a crown on Queenscrown to keep it a secret hide out shows about the same level of genius that JonCon used when he came up with "Griff" to keep his identity a secret.

[Seams]

It's always helpful to go back for a re-read, isn't it? I just found a blog that excerpts some of the text around the murder of the old man. I disagree completely with the conclusion reached by the blogger in this entry, but the selected passages focused my attention on key details that tell me the old man represents the direwolf Ghost.

1) Bran sees a wolf: "At first he thought it might be Summer, but no." Bran thinks the old man is his wolf, but it's not. Recall that Bran liked the name "Ghost" that Jon had chosen for his wolf, and wishes he had thought of it first. Part of the resolution of the conflict in the scene comes from Summer saving Jon's life. We know that Ygritte and Ghost don't overlap in Jon's life, and that there is a sense that the presence of one excludes the other.

2) The silence: "Even then the captive did not speak. 'Mercy,' he might have said, or 'You have taken my horse, my coin, my food, let me keep my life,' or 'No, please, I have done you no harm.' He might have said a thousand things, or wept, or called upon his gods. No words would save him now, though. Perhaps he knew that. So he held his tongue, and looked at Jon in accusation and appeal."

3) Longclaw and Ice contrasted: "One cut would do it, quick and clean. Longclaw was forged of Valyrian steel. Like Ice. Jon remembered another killing; the deserter on his knees, his head rolling, the brightness of blood on snow... his father's sword, his father's words, his father's face..." Jon finds himself unable to do the task, apparently from a sense of honor - the reader believes that Jon is recalling his father carrying out the King's justice on the night's watch deserter and that Jon doesn't see this old man as deserving of punishment because he hasn't committed a known crime. I always thought it was significant that Mormont doesn't kill Jon Snow when he deserts the Night's Watch, and that Mormont's decision showed a better sense of honor than Ned's "by the book" execution of the deserter. Knowing that Ned killed the direwolf Lady with his sword, Ice, but Jon feels unable to kill this old man with the sword Longclaw underscores the lesson that Jon absorbed from Mormont's mercy, in spite of his devotion to Ned's memory: "Longclaw seemed heavier than lead in his hand, too heavy to lift."  

4) A wordplay breakthrough clue: Rereading this scene has just helped me to uncover yet another example of wordplay that creates a gigantic new insight for all the deserter references: through anagram wordplay, deserter is paired with red trees. Everyone acknowledges the connection between the white wolf with red eyes and the white trees with red leaves, now we can add a new layer of meaning to our understanding of what it means to cut down a weirwood tree by examining the deserter references (especially where execution of a deserter is involved). When Jon is riding south toward the end of AGoT, his NW brothers catch up with him and find his hiding place because Ghost moves (iirc) and gives it away. Jon turns to Ghost and calls him a traitor (he also calls Sam a traitor in that chapter).

5) Lannister allusions: The discussion of the sword Ice and Ned and execution raises the image of Ned's execution. Taken together with the silent white-haired man, I couldn't help thinking of Ser Ilyn Payne. Holy cow! All this time, Tywin Lannister has had a silent white "direwolf," just like Jon. As soon as Tywin dies, Jaime takes Ilyn Payne on the road and spends all his spare time with the guy, learning to become a new and better warrior. And then there's this: "Longclaw seemed heavier than lead in his hand, too heavy to lift. The man kept staring at him, with eyes as big and black as wells. I will fall into those eyes and drown." Jaime has a gold hand (to replace his naughty kingslaying hand); Jon has a lead hand, in which Longclaw has replaced the coveted sword Ice (that Jon always wanted to own, and which killed the direwolf Lady). The reference to the eyes being like wells is also a Lannister allusion because Tywin threw a three-year-old Tarbek heir down a well and (we believe) Cersei threw Melara Hetherspoon down a well. Tywin Lannister also drowned the Reyne family at Castamere.

5A) Granted, Theon also threw Septon Chayle down a well at Winterfell - I don't know yet how that relates to the well symbolism. And drowning also has the death and rebirth association with the Drowned God of the Ironborn. I would not be surprised if this symbolic sacrifice of Ghost with the death of the Old Man is an "only death can pay for life" rebirth for Jon - he can return to the Night's Watch only by sacrificing a life very precious to himself, although he doesn't fully realize that's what he's doing. (Like Dany with Drogo and Rhaego.) If I were forced to guess right now, I might say that the Lannisters represent death by water while Theon represents rebirth by water. I guess we'll have to find more evidence as the books unfold.

The man's eyes and blood are definitely black, not red, so I realize there is something different about the silent old man and Ghost. The subtle language that indicates the man is already dead is also clear, so the point @Blue-Eyed Wolf made, above, is still valid. Why would Ghost be personified as a dead guy?

The OP pointed out that the symbolism in these passages is extremely dense and meaningful. I suspect we will need to take a step back and examine more of the surrounding prose for additional insights. Bran and his companions almost stopped in the ruined inn where the old man stopped, and instead had a difficult time finding and walking the path to the Queenscrown where doorman Hodor had to get through a rusty door and then put Bran and the Reeds through a murder hole. What's up with the murder hole?

In the recent thread discussing Bran the Builder, @Macgregor of the North discovered that references to "a thousand years" are hints that GRRM is connecting the action to an ancient legend of the culture. Here Jon says that the old man "might have said a thousand things." Is this another allusion to an old myth? Maybe we are seeing the death of the "dog" of the Last Hero? Has Jon lost twelve companions in his arc at this point? If not, how many left to go? (Ned, Robb, Mormont, Ygritte, Donal Noye, ...)

I forgot to mention: If the old man does represent the direwolf Ghost, Jon is Lucy and Susan watching Aslan being killed at the Stone Table. Or maybe he is Edmund, whose life is spared by Aslan's self-sacrifice. That makes Ygritte the White Witch. Luckily, all this means there will be a resurrection for Ghost.

17 hours ago, YOVMO said:

This might be a very petty distinction and probably has little or even no bearing on your interpretation but I do not believe (though I could be wrong) that Alysanne built Queenscrown. Rather, I think it is the case that she stayed there and to honor her they painted the crown on it

True.

 

[M_Tootles]

On 8/11/2016 at 1:10 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

This may be nothing, but I actually just read where Jon is later recalling the old man at Castle Black and he sees black blood pouring out of him as the lightening flashed. Black blood seems to be associated with undead. Beric Dondarrion's blood was described as black by Arya after the Hound cut him down. Gregor Clegane's veins turn black after being poisoned and Bran's vision of presumably Robert Strong had black blood pouring out of his visor. This rainstorm seems to be a little on the supernatural side. The whole north and Riverlands seems to be under a downpour of severe flooding. Seems like Bran and his group were guided to the tower by the lightening.  Jon was able to get away by some perfectly timed lightening and Bran warging into Summer to help him.  It's definitely raining buckets at the Red Wedding so that seems to be happening near the same time.  Anyone else think the old man is not actually alive? 

Black blood and the Hoare line, too... I'll have to find this quote. EDIT: Ok, you found it and wow, bastard blood, perfect.