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Arya Stark & Good Queen Alysanne. ?


a black swan

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Unfortuntely QG Alysanne was bad news for the Starks. Sure, the NW talk highly of her because she gave them jewels to build a new castle and move away from the Nightfort, with its black gate (so that NW didn't even know anymore they have a magic gate, and thus lose touch of their purpose), and makes the Starks give up land to the NW that the NW can't keep an eye with her visit on the back of a dragon. The Starks lost land because of her, lost holds for bannermen because of her, and the Starks had to retreat anybody watching over the farmers there against raids, while the NW didn't actually do the job, but go ranging. And even if the southern direwolves were overhunted in the North, the abandoning of the Nightfort 200 years ago is not so coincidentally also the 200 years that no direwolf was seen south of the wall anymore. GQ Alysanne worked for the anti-magic agenda of the Maesters (especially what seems to be anti-Stark-warging and anti-Others-existence) and is one of the royals who handicapped and meddled with the Stark in a negative way.

So, me, personally, I'm not fond of this comparison. Because it would imply that Arya is bad news for the Starks.

Yeah but these parallels usually are more contrary in position. So if Arya does rule as Queen, she would use her intelligence to maneuver against a powerful House that is against the Starks. Alysanne is a Targ, from her viewpoint, the Starks posed a threat. From Arya's viewpoint, perhaps the Lannisters or the Arryns in the Vale or whatever major House might need similar treatment.

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5 hours ago, Poupsi said:

Well, she likes her little prayer, and she seems eager to get rid of the names.

She wants revenge for her family. Something any of the other Starks would want if they had the ability and opportunity. Why wouldn't she be able to come back from it? She can choose to make peace with her grief and make new choices and gain new purpose in life. I think that will be her next phase. With the WW threat, she will see the greater danger.

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On August 12, 2016 at 9:25 PM, Poupsi said:

Nice work.

Very interesting parallels.

But she had turned into a bloodthirsty assassin; I don't know if she could come back from that, even if I'm rooting for it.

I would go read this thread thread in its entirety for Arya's illustration of the interconnectiveness of Mercy, Vengeance and Justice.

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, me, personally, I'm not fond of this comparison. Because it would imply that Arya is bad news for the Starks.

 Alysanne is an example that The Road to Perdition is paved with good intentions. So I understand that the dislike of the comparison but wouldn't you say that the overarching theme of the book is balance in the duality as examplified by Alysanne? So Arya in comparison to Alysanne but with very different outcomes would be in line of this theme.

Here is an example:

the comparsion between Lyanna Stark and Deana Targaryen and their sons Jon and Damon. 

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6 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I would go read this thread thread in its entirety for Arya's illustration of the interconnectiveness of Mercy, Vengeance and Justice.

I understand the dislike of the comparison but wouldn't you say that the overarching theme of the book is balance in duality? So Arya's comparison to Alysanne but with very different outcomes would be in line of this theme.

Here is an example:

the comparsion between Lyanna Stark and Deana Targaryen and their sons Jon and Damon. 

Perhaps. I just have a serious dislike for GQ Alysanne. She's hailed like this "great queen", but imo she weakened the NW, magic and the North, regardless of Stark sentiment and therefore endangered the realm. I think she ought to be called "Bad Queen Alysanne". She's this propagandist hypocrite. And it's not what I associate with Arya - queen or no queen.

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Perhaps. I just have a serious dislike for GQ Alysanne. She's hailed like this "great queen", but imo she weakened the NW, magic and the North, regardless of Stark sentiment and therefore endangered the realm. I think she ought to be called "Bad Queen Alysanne". She's this propagandist hypocrite. And it's not what I associate with Arya - queen or no queen.

I understand completely. Margeary is just like that. That's why I have an appreciation for Cersei. I actually dislike Dany for similar reasons as you do for Alysanne because I can see her heading in the same way regardless of her good intentions. 

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12 hours ago, DutchArya said:

She wants revenge for her family. Something any of the other Starks would want if they had the ability and opportunity. Why wouldn't she be able to come back from it? She can choose to make peace with her grief and make new choices and gain new purpose in life. I think that will be her next phase. With the WW threat, she will see the greater danger.

So, I hope. But blood calls for blood.

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  • 5 weeks later...

@DutchArya So I just saw this thread again and I wanted to put something out there.

Alysane is an echo of the name Alyson which derives its name from the Alyssum flower. It is Greek for "not insane". 'a' is the 'not' and 'lys' comes from 'lyc' which is like "having rabies, madness' which that meaning is derived from the word Lykos "wolf'. The flower was said to cure madness. This is where Lys' name is derived from. For me their careful breeding of Valyrian traits is preserving the madness that we so often see in the Targaryens. Which this is interesting to me that Aria has the wolf blood that Ned described as akin to crazy. 

Now what is also interesting is that there is a flower called Lobularia Maritima which is closely related to the Alyssum flowers. The first part means small pod in Greek and the second one means coastal. It is commonly known as Sweet Alison. This is probably in relation to Sweetsister and Evolett's identification here

This is also where the name Alys, Alyane and all the characters with the Aly or Ali names. Also Alice in Wonderland (and we all know her history with the madness there).  

I am not there yet with this train of thought but I thought it was worth jumping into the rabbit hole. 

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37 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

@DutchArya So I just saw this thread again and I wanted to put something out there.

Alysane is an echo of the name Alyson which derives its name from the Alyssum flower. It is Greek for "not insane". 'a' is the 'not' and 'lys' comes from 'lyc' which is like "having rabies, madness' which that meaning is derived from the word Lykos "wolf'. The flower was said to cure madness. This is where Lys' name is derived from. For me their careful breeding of Valyrian traits is preserving the madness that we so often see in the Targaryens. Which this is interesting to me that Aria has the wolf blood that Ned described as akin to crazy. 

Now what is also interesting is that there is a flower called Lobularia Maritima which is closely related to the Alyssum flowers. The first part means small pod in Greek and the second one means coastal. It is commonly known as Sweet Alison. This is probably in relation to Sweetsister and Evolett's identification here

This is also where the name Alys, Alyane and all the characters with the Aly or Ali names. Also Alice in Wonderland (and we all know her history with the madness there).  

I am not there yet with this train of thought but I thought it was worth jumping into the rabbit hole. 

And...

We have Jon married off Alys, "Winter's lady" to Sigorn, a wildling, through a fire/flame ritual (via Mel).  

Alys reminds Jon a little bit of Arya at first look.

Lyanna ~ Arya ~ Alys ~ to cure madness/wildness?

Lyanna[Rhaegar]

Alys[Sigorn]

Arya[reborn/resurrected/madness/changed Jon?] :P

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On 8/14/2016 at 1:34 AM, Poupsi said:

Well, she likes her little prayer, and she seems eager to get rid of the names.

Those names pretty much deserve being killed. Arya is Nemesis, divine retribution. (And do you see how similar Nemesis and Nymeria are?)

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16 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

And...

We have Jon married off Alys, "Winter's lady" to Sigorn, a wildling, through a fire/flame ritual (via Mel).  

Alys reminds Jon a little bit of Arya at first look.

Lyanna ~ Arya ~ Alys ~ to cure madness/wildness?

Lyanna[Rhaegar]

Alys[Sigorn]

Arya[reborn/resurrected/madness/changed Jon?] :P

I was talking to LmL about the Alys and Sigorn wedding. Alys is also the daughter of a dying star. The Karstark sigil is a white sunburst on a black background and their motto is The Sun of Winter. This combined with the fact that they are called white star wolves, I took to mean that the sigil is both a supernova and a white dwarf star. The former is a violent death of a star and the latter is the gradual death of a star. 

Sigorn's father Styr fights with a weirwood spear tipped in bronze and arguably since Martin uses swords and spears as euphemism for penis, Sigorn is a part of this weirwood spear and his action of piercing Alys of the dying white star is violent because it results in blood and will result in a new star. Hence the sigil for House Thenn while described as a copper disk burning in the flames of R'hllor actually is a new sun. Now if this union actually helps the political situation even more we shall see. I believe it will but there have been other clues that the piercing of a dying star actually diseased the population.  

Not to mention that the Karstarks are headed towards death on both sides of the killing field. 

This is an echo of the origin of House Nymeros Martell. Nymeria's sun being pierced by the Martell spear. 

Per Lyanna's name not including the 'a' in front and her touch of wolf's blood I think she is the precursor of madness. Her actions and Rehaegar led to rebellion and war after all.

Arya is being trained for a higher purpose and perhaps through Jon she will stop the growing madness. 

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Alysanne was the one who managed to antagonize the Starks and weaken the Night's Watch until the problem snowballed into Southron Ambition and the Watch as it is now. Alysanne was playing at politics to decrease the influence of the Stark but her actions were unjust. The crown couldn't just take away their subject's property and give it to another like that. She was definitely smiling smugly at her own shrewdness.

She might have done a lot of good deeds, but that didn't undo her misdeeds either.

 

Maybe Arya will do something that'll piss off Daenerys in the future...

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6 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I was talking to LmL about the Alys and Sigorn wedding. Alys is also the daughter of a dying star. The Karstark sigil is a white sunburst on a black background and their motto is The Sun of Winter. This combined with the fact that they are called white star wolves, I took to mean that the sigil is both a supernova and a white dwarf star. The former is a violent death of a star and the latter is the gradual death of a star. 

Sigorn's father Styr fights with a weirwood spear tipped in bronze and arguably since Martin uses swords and spears as euphemism for penis, Sigorn is a part of this weirwood spear and his action of piercing Alys of the dying white star is violent because it results in blood and will result in a new star. Hence the sigil for House Thenn while described as a copper disk burning in the flames of R'hllor actually is a new sun. Now if this union actually helps the political situation even more we shall see. I believe it will but there have been other clues that the piercing of a dying star actually diseased the population.  

Not to mention that the Karstarks are headed towards death on both sides of the killing field. 

This is an echo of the origin of House Nymeros Martell. Nymeria's sun being pierced by the Martell spear. 

Per Lyanna's name not including the 'a' in front and her touch of wolf's blood I think she is the precursor of madness. Her actions and Rehaegar led to rebellion and war after all.

Arya is being trained for a higher purpose and perhaps through Jon she will stop the growing madness. 

Thus why GRRM gave hints of Lyanna's likeness with Arya, he is conditioning us.  However, he gave that strong foreshadowing through Jon.  That she will be sowing through winter and when spring comes, her body will be found frozen with needle locked within her grasp (hmm reminds us of a certain Lady Stark, holding on to something her lover gave to her, holding it tightly in her hands).   She then declared that she hates needlework, the same severity she declared to her Father, she doesn't want to be a lady.

Sowing with needles is not only for mending fabric/clothes, but also of opened wounds, so that the underneath of it, "life", will be able to healed properly.

So the cost for Arya to sow Jon's wound, so that he won't go beyond madness and doom...?

1 minute ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

Alysanne was the one who managed to antagonize the Starks and weaken the Night's Watch until the problem snowballed into Southron Ambition and the Watch as it is now. Alysanne was playing at politics to decrease the influence of the Stark but her actions were unjust. The crown couldn't just take away their subject's property and give it to another like that. She was definitely smiling smugly at her own shrewdness.

She might have done a lot of good deeds, but that didn't undo her misdeeds either.

 

Maybe Arya will do something that'll piss off Daenerys in the future...

If we go with Jon goes with Dany for duty and Arya for love, like his Father (Elia for duty, Lyanna for love)... maybe.

And it's not hard to conclude that with Visenya and Rhaenys, in regards to Aegon. They weren't exactly full of sunshine and rainbows as well.  

However, I'm of the opinion that Dany will give Jon an heir to continue the Targaryen line.

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On 8/14/2016 at 2:16 PM, sweetsunray said:

Perhaps. I just have a serious dislike for GQ Alysanne. She's hailed like this "great queen", but imo she weakened the NW, magic and the North, regardless of Stark sentiment and therefore endangered the realm. I think she ought to be called "Bad Queen Alysanne". She's this propagandist hypocrite. And it's not what I associate with Arya - queen or no queen.

Yes, I think it fits better if Sansa (Alyanne- name similarity) is compared to Alysanne. The parallels you point out fit Sansa better than Arya. Although I like Sansa, 

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10 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

What?

Well, I like Sansa. However, many do feel that she is bad for the Starks (her incident with Arya/Joff on the way to Kingslanding). Many people see her as not a true Stark. She also lost her Direwolf. Many would say she is the least magic of the Starks because her warg ability never developed, so I see the points made by Sweetsunray (especially the lack of Direwolves- Sansa was the first to lose hers )that Alysanne was bad for the Starks and her anti-magic/direwolf effects as being more indicative of Sansa than Arya. (I originally thought that GQ Alysanne had more in common with Sansa mainly due to the similarities with her alias. However, I have read your post and now see some parallels with Arya, but these other qualities that Sweetsunray has pointed out remind me of what many say about Sansa.) 

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4 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

Alysanne was the one who managed to antagonize the Starks and weaken the Night's Watch until the problem snowballed into Southron Ambition and the Watch as it is now. Alysanne was playing at politics to decrease the influence of the Stark but her actions were unjust. The crown couldn't just take away their subject's property and give it to another like that. She was definitely smiling smugly at her own shrewdness.

She might have done a lot of good deeds, but that didn't undo her misdeeds either.

 

Maybe Arya will do something that'll piss off Daenerys in the future...

Perhaps she will tame one of her dragons? 

Arya is warned by Yoren:

"First sight of a gold cloak, make for the Wall like a dragon’s on your tail."

Once Dany conquers and takes the IT, the Gold Cloaks will be in service to her. A dragon being sent after Arya... there must be something important to do at the Wall or just North. 

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“When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.” - said about Dany’s dragons.

~*~

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“I wish I had a flaming sword.” Arya could think of lots of people she’d like to set on fire.“ - said by Arya Stark of Winterfell. 

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“I wish I could change into a wolf and grow wings and fly away.” - Arya, ASoS 

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A girl a wished for wings as well as a flaming sword. Interesting.

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“I would like to see a dragon,” Mercy said wistfully.

^ Said while talking about the Black Pearl and the Dragon King taking a lover. 

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Arya also used the passages below the Red Keep to escape:

Only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the Dragonlords had built.

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Dany's reign will be shot and devastating. The last book was originally called A Time for Wolves suggesting a Stark resurgence.

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30 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

Well, I like Sansa. However, many do feel that she is bad for the Starks (her incident with Arya/Joff on the way to Kingslanding). Many people see her as not a true Stark. She also lost her Direwolf. Many would say she is the least magic of the Starks because her warg ability never developed, so I see the points made by Sweetsunray (especially the lack of Direwolves- Sansa was the first to lose hers )that Alysanne was bad for the Starks and her anti-magic/direwolf effects as being more indicative of Sansa than Arya. (I originally thought that GQ Alysanne had more in common with Sansa mainly due to the similarities with her alias. However, I have read your post and now see some parallels with Arya, but these other qualities that Sweetsunray has pointed out remind me of what many say about Sansa.) 

 

Yeah, I think it's more in reverse. Alysanne's perceived enemy at the time were the Starks. Arya would have her own enemy to battle with and weaken just the same - from another noble House.

Alysanne bonded with her mythical beast and was a dragonrider. Arya shares a similar bond with her mythical beast when they literally share the same mind. Arya asked her father if she could build Castles and be a King’s Councillor; two things Queen Alysanne was known for. 

I don't think a name Sansa is temporarily using holds much weight when almost nothing in Queen Alysanne’s story fits. 

 

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