Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

[JonSnow4President]

6 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Because she isn't the main focus of the story and has had very little impact on the plot that I think is most important. I'm not sure what you constitute as a major character, but, for me, this disqualifies her as one.

 

FTFY. She's "on screen" between her and Jaime's POVs an awful lot for not affecting "the plot" (despite of course having a plot of her own, which kind of means she affects the plot).  You might want to specify.

[Ruhail]

Secondary characters can end up becoming primary characters as the story goes on. Happens alot in Asoiaf:

Theon

Asha

Brienne

Jaime

Etc.

[Cridefea]

34 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Yes, they could have, but since Brienne isn't a favorite character of mine, I don't care. I know you feel strongly for her character, and I wish they had done better with her for your sake, but since her story doesn't serve the plot in any significant way, at least not yet, I didn't have a problem with them cutting it. Maybe Winds will change my mind regarding this, but until Martin releases it, my opinion stands.

"the plot". which plot?? you talk like there is a basic plot in ASoIaF, but I don't think so.

[David Selig]

Brienne's story in AFFC may be boring for most readers and irrelevant to the main plot, but at least it makes internal sense, significantly develops her characters and contributes to the worldbuilding and atmosphere. D&D replaced it with a much dumber story they invented (her going North to save Sansa) which didn't make a slightest bit of sense and didn't develop her character at all. I don't see that as an improvement. Yes, the TV version is much shorter, but it's not like they used the saved time for something good - it was wasted on stuff like the Dorne idiocy, Tyrion's mindbogglingly boring Essos "adventures", etc.

[dsug]

29 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Brienne's story in AFFC may be boring for most readers and irrelevant to the main plot, but at least it makes internal sense, significantly develops her characters and contributes to the worldbuilding and atmosphere. D&D replaced it with a much dumber story they invented (her going North to save Sansa) which didn't make a slightest bit of sense and didn't develop her character at all. I don't see that as an improvement. Yes, the TV version is much shorter, but it's not like they used the saved time for something good - it was wasted on stuff like the Dorne idiocy, Tyrion's mindbogglingly boring Essos "adventures", etc.

Did you read ADWD??? (sorry I couldn't resist)

And as for the "Dorne Idiocy", all I can say is, Dorne had ~25 minutes of screentime in season five, out of ten hours. And in season six, it literally had two scenes. So while we may not like, we can't pretend it was this giant new storyline. Dorne is and always has been a sideplot. 

[Dragon in the North]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

I disagree fundamentally with that.  Is Bran's story worthless since we don't know the exact impact?  Jon's?  Jaime's? Cersei's?  Stannis'?  For a long time, we don't get confirmation of where those storylines are going.  So much of the joy of reading a story is that unfolding, finally figuring out what is going on and how what you have read so far relates to it.  

We knew where Bran's story was going in the first three books. He was going to see the Three Eyed Raven. We knew where Jon's story was going in the first three books. To go beyond the Wall and protect Westeros from Mance and his approaching wildling army. Jaime, to escape from Stark captivity and return to his sister. Cersei, to keep Tyrion from stealing her power. Stannis, to take the Iron Throne. In Dance, they didn't give good enough explanation as to why Bran was looking into the past and haven't made it clear where his story is going. Jaime is wandering around the Riverlands, taking castles from an already defeated Riverlands, doing nothing of importance. Jon is taking stock at the Wall in preparation for a threat that seems nonexistent at this point. Stannis is marching on Winterfell and prepares for a battle that never even takes place, where his motivations aren't even clear. He knows of the White Walkers at this point, yet he doesn't even mention them as soon as he leaves the Wall.

 

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

And you haven't used facts at all.  

Yes, I have. I've given prime examples that prove that the last two books are vastly inferior to the first three, as far as plot advancement goes. The examples you gave prove my point exactly. Brienne's chapters were used as set up for events that may or may not occur. Using your own personal theories as facts doesn't help your argument.

[Dragon in the North]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

FTFY. She's "on screen" between her and Jaime's POVs an awful lot for not affecting "the plot" (despite of course having a plot of her own, which kind of means she affects the plot).  You might want to specify.

Shae was also present a lot, but I don't consider her a main character either. And being a POV doesn't automatically make one an important character. 

[Dragon in the North]

1 hour ago, Cridefea said:

"the plot". which plot?? you talk like there is a basic plot in ASoIaF, but I don't think so.

There is a basic plot to ASOIAF. Families fight over the Iron Throne while ignoring the true threat to the North. That may seem simplistic to you, but if you'll notice, each major storyline has something to do with the War fro the Iron Throne or the White Walkers. 

[JonSnow4President]

Just now, Dragon in the North said:

We knew where Bran's story was going in the first three books. He was going to see the Three Eyed Raven. We knew where Jon's story was going in the first three books. To go beyond the Wall and protect Westeros from Mance and his approaching wildling army. Jaime, to escape from Stark captivity and return to his sister. Cersei, to keep Tyrion from stealing her power. Stannis, to take the Iron Throne. In Dance, they didn't give good enough explanation as to why Bran was looking into the past and haven't made it clear where his story is going. Jaime is wandering around the Riverlands, taking castles from an already defeated Riverlands, doing nothing of importance. Jon is taking stock at the Wall in preparation for a threat that seems nonexistent at this point. Stannis is marching on Winterfell and prepares for a battle that never even takes place, where his motivations aren't even clear. He knows of the White Walkers at this point, yet he doesn't even mention them as soon as he leaves the Wall.

 

Yes, I have. I've given prime examples that prove that the last two books are vastly inferior to the first three, as far as plot advancement goes. The examples you gave prove my point exactly. Brienne's chapters were used as set up for events that may or may not occur. Using your own personal theories as facts doesn't help your argument.

Setup for things that may or may not occur is literally plot for an in-progress series.  Do want a transparently obvious story that you KNOW (not just have strong feelings it will occur) everything that will happen?  Because that's what I'm seeing you write. 

And if we're limiting it to those high level descriptions that we've known what was going on, Brienne's story was to try to find the Stark sisters and then to encounter Lady Stoneheart.  Does she work with her?  I don't know.  Does she work with Jaime to overthrow her?  I don't know.  That doesn't mean there's no plot though, or that it's a weak story by any stretch.  It's a view of storytelling I quite frankly just can't understand.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Because she isn't the main focus of the story and has had very little impact on the plot. I'm not sure what you constitute as a major character, but, for me, this disqualifies her as one.

 

Well, in a future she might have more impact. And she did have a strong one, when she defeated Stannis.-not that I like it how it was done-

Well, I bet that a major character from the show, Cersei, will disappear soon, and others like Bran will begin to be crucial. Until the story is finished we can't disqualify characters.

[Meera of Tarth]

22 minutes ago, dsug said:

Did you read ADWD??? (sorry I couldn't resist)

And as for the "Dorne Idiocy", all I can say is, Dorne had ~25 minutes of screentime in season five, out of ten hours. And in season six, it literally had two scenes. So while we may not like, we can't pretend it was this giant new storyline. Dorne is and always has been a sideplot. 

Well, the effect on the audience and critics was sooo big even with those 25 minutes+2scenes.

And I even think the showrunners were aware of that according to Siddig's interview:

http://watchersonthewall.com/alexander-siddig-exit-game-thrones/#more-72998

[Meera of Tarth]

21 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

We knew where Bran's story was going in the first three books. He was going to see the Three Eyed Raven. We knew where Jon's story was going in the first three books. To go beyond the Wall and protect Westeros from Mance and his approaching wildling army. Jaime, to escape from Stark captivity and return to his sister. Cersei, to keep Tyrion from stealing her power. Stannis, to take the Iron Throne. In Dance, they didn't give good enough explanation as to why Bran was looking into the past and haven't made it clear where his story is going. Jaime is wandering around the Riverlands, taking castles from an already defeated Riverlands, doing nothing of importance. Jon is taking stock at the Wall in preparation for a threat that seems nonexistent at this point. Stannis is marching on Winterfell and prepares for a battle that never even takes place, where his motivations aren't even clear. He knows of the White Walkers at this point, yet he doesn't even mention them as soon as he leaves the Wall.

 

Yes, I have. I've given prime examples that prove that the last two books are vastly inferior to the first three, as far as plot advancement goes. The examples you gave prove my point exactly. Brienne's chapters were used as set up for events that may or may not occur. Using your own personal theories as facts doesn't help your argument.

Bran had only 3 chapters in these two books. I don't think it should count as an example of "not enough information". In fact, a lot of things happened in those 3 chapters.

And, overall, I'd say that the story will make more sense (resolving cliffhangers and plot moving forward) with the next book. That's how book series work. 

[Dragon in the North]

16 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Setup for things that may or may not occur is literally plot for an in-progress series.  Do want a transparently obvious story that you KNOW (not just have strong feelings it will occur) everything that will happen?  Because that's what I'm seeing you write. 

Each book should stand on its own, though. Look again at the examples I provided. We didn't have to guess what impact Ned's death would have, because it happened in that very same book. The same can be said for Tyrion's trial, the Red Wedding, the Battle of the Blackwater, Theon taking Winterfell, etc.

 

19 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

And if we're limiting it to those high level descriptions that we've known what was going on, Brienne's story was to try to find the Stark sisters and then to encounter Lady Stoneheart.  Does she work with her?  I don't know.  Does she work with Jaime to overthrow her?  I don't know.  That doesn't mean there's no plot though, or that it's a weak story by any stretch.  It's a view of storytelling I quite frankly just can't understand.

Brienne never even comes close to finding the Stark girls and she only encounters Stoneheart in her final chapter. It doesn't justify all the chapters that came before.

[Dragon in the North]

13 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Well, in a future she might have more impact. And she did have a strong one, when she defeated Stannis.-not that I like it how it was done-

Well, I bet that a major character from the show, Cersei, will disappear soon, and others like Bran will began to be crucial. Until the story is finished we can't disqualify characters.

I'm not disqualifying Brienne as a major character, at least not completely. i'm just not ready to qualify her yet.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 minute ago, Dragon in the North said:

I'm not disqualifying Brienne as a major character, at least not completely. i'm just not ready to qualify her yet.

ok, I thought the contrary from your previous comment. 

[Meera of Tarth]

15 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Each book should stand on its own, though. Look again at the examples I provided. We didn't have to guess what impact Ned's death would have, because it happened in that very same book. The same can be said for Tyrion's trial, the Red Wedding, the Battle of the Blackwater, Theon taking Winterfell, etc.

 

Brienne never even comes close to finding the Stark girls and she only encounters Stoneheart in her final chapter. It doesn't justify all the chapters that came before.

Travelogue adventures happens with other characters, for instance, Tyrion. We don't know if Brienne will be as important as Tyrion, but even if it doesn't happen, she still has the right to have her adventures. Anyway, I don't think she would have become a POV character in the 4th book if she wasn't going to be more important in the general plot.

And apart from that her previous chapters also serve to let us know she is fallling in love with Jaime and parallel Jaime's ones-falling for her. (and Cersei's in a way).

[Dragon in the North]

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

ok, I thought the contrary from your previous comment. 

Sorry, I may just be getting caught up in the conversation. Right now, Brienne hasn't done anything for me that would constitute her as a main character, but my opinion can always change, depending on the next few books.

[David Selig]

1 hour ago, dsug said:

Did you read ADWD??? (sorry I couldn't resist)

And as for the "Dorne Idiocy", all I can say is, Dorne had ~25 minutes of screentime in season five, out of ten hours. And in season six, it literally had two scenes. So while we may not like, we can't pretend it was this giant new storyline. Dorne is and always has been a sideplot. 

I disliked Tyrion's plot in ADWD too. Though it was better than the screen version.

These were just examples. The point is the show wasted huge amount of time on boring stuff with little to no plot relevance in the last few seasons. Like all the speeches and talks the High Sparrow had in the last season. What the hell was the point?

[JonSnow4President]

1 hour ago, Dragon in the North said:

Sorry, I may just be getting caught up in the conversation. Right now, Brienne hasn't done anything for me that would constitute her as a main character, but my opinion can always change, depending on the next few books.

And I can respect that you think it's ancillary, not important, off track, etc.  I just have zero respect for the position that there isn't plot in AFFC, either overall or in Brienne's story.  

I don't think each book necessarily has to stand up completely on its own, as long as there a sort of natural resolution to the plot each character faced in the book (which I think Brienne's does).  That's not to say that Brienne's has to have an affect on Cersei's, or Jon's, or Dany's. If, at the end of the story, Brienne's time still feels completely ancillary, I'll probably take a position closer to yours.  But I don't think not being able to see it clearly right now means I should default to that position.  

Sorry for the delayed response.  My middle brother finally woke up (6pm), so my other brother and I went with him to get dinner. (He left work [cancer research] at a town 2 hours away from here at 6am, he's not a bum)

 

[Dragon in the North]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

I don't think each book necessarily has to stand up completely on its own, as long as there a sort of natural resolution to the plot each character faced in the book (which I think Brienne's does).  That's not to say that Brienne's has to have an affect on Cersei's, or Jon's, or Dany's. If, at the end of the story, Brienne's time still feels completely ancillary, I'll probably take a position closer to yours.  But I don't think not being able to see it clearly right now means I should default to that position.  

I would probably be more forgiving of Brienne's chapters if hers were the only ones that didn't really advance the plot. Many storylines in AFFC brought the story to a crawl, imo, so Brienne isn't my only concern.

 

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

Sorry for the delayed response.  My middle brother finally woke up (6pm), so my other brother and I went with him to get dinner. (He left work [cancer research] at a town 2 hours away from here at 6am, he's not a bum)

No problem. We all have busy schedules.