Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

[Ruhail]

22 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

I have the exact opposite view. I think the scene with Stannis and Shireen was used to show the tough decision Stannis had to face. The act of burning her doesn't mean he didn't love her, only that Stannis had a duty to the realm and its people. Stannis truly believed he was the messiah sent to save the world from the White Walkers, and that no one else would be able to stop them. His army was grounded to a halt by a blizzard, not 1 inch of snow, leaving his army vulnerable to attack, which is exactly what happened. The only chance they had at victory was to move forward, and the only way to do that was to melt the snow. His portrayl in the show didn't bother me in the least. In fact, he became one of my favorite characters, whereas I found his book counterpart rather one dimensional and boring. In the end, I don't hate Stannis for what he did, even though I find it deplorable. I merely pity him.

 

Shireen's death was foreshadowed in the earlier seasons, so her death wasn't used for shock factor. It was used to develop Stannis's character.

Yes the situation that is so bad that Ramsay 20 invisible plot holes, Davos, mel, Jon and the rest can conveniently ignore it not too long later for an explosive big battle. Face it they cherry picked the ADWD north weather to use as a one season plot device in S5 to not spend any more money and clumsily wrapup a character in the way. It disappears when they need another Michael bay fight in season 6 and is now returning in S7 since the special snowflake has had the battle.

[Dragon in the North]

6 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

 

I don't care what the showrunners said. I care about what is shown in the show, and it clearly indicates that the White Walkers are Stannis's primary motivation going forward. As for the camp, I agree they could have done a much better job showing that Stannis's army is in bad shape, but they do show the poor conditions and show that the soldiers are cold and hungry. Thanks for the link. I don't have time to read it now, but I will later tonight. However, I've read several articles about Stannis, and none have really changed my view on the book character.

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

The "them" I was referring to was the White Walkers. Stannis was the only one who could defeat them.

And he should have better saved "his daughter's sacrifice" for something bigger like this, if anything. What they did made no sense.

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This was explained in the show. Ramsay's small force is a lot more mobile than Stannis's large army.

 

Explained in the show? I don't recall it. When? More "mobile"? That justifies killing your daughter? Like you can't improve your resources doing anything better?

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It was also foreshadowed in the season 2 finale. Besides,

Some people. Not everyone.. The point is that they did the Stannis-hugs Shireen scene to make it more shocking.

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I prefer subtle foreshadowing than foreshadoing that thrown in the viewer's face. I just mean that they built up to the moment, and it didn't only happen out of the blue.

In this we agree. One of the things the show does well.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

I don't care what the showrunners said. I care about what is shown in the show, and it clearly indicates that the White Walkers are Stannis's primary motivation going forward. As for the camp, I agree they could have done a much better job showing that Stannis's army is in bad shape, but they do show the poor conditions and show that the soldiers are cold and hungry. Thanks for the link. I don't have time to read it now, but I will later tonight. However, I've read several articles about Stannis, and none have really changed my view on the book character.

Where and when did they show that? One conversation between STannis and Mel saying there is too much cold outside? I saw nothing you mention.

What it was shown well is the consequences of burning your daughter: it makes half of your men to leave you behind.

[Ruhail]

1 minute ago, Dragon in the North said:

I don't care what the showrunners said. I care about what is shown in the show, and it clearly indicates that the White Walkers are Stannis's primary motivation going forward. As for the camp, I agree they could have done a much better job showing that Stannis's army is in bad shape, but they do show the poor conditions and show that the soldiers are cold and hungry. Thanks for the link. I don't have time to read it now, but I will later tonight. However, I've read several articles about Stannis, and none have really changed my view on the book character.

That motivation is severely downplayed and not made a priority for the show character it's still the throne from him and the showrunners said as much.

 

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Explained in the show? I don't recall it. When? More "mobile"? That justifies killing your daughter? Like you can't improve your resources doing anything better?

But it's so hard for a character who starved for a year to go hungry for a days walk to WF don't you know? Jon is clearly a more strong willed commander/character lol

[Dragon in the North]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

And he should have better saved "his daughter's sacrifice" for something bigger like this, if anything. What they did made no sense.

He and his army were about to die. Saving Shireen as a trump card against the White Walkers wouldn't matter if they were all dead.

 

3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Explained in the show? I don't recall it. When? More "mobile"? That justifies killing your daughter? Like you can't improve your resources doing anything better?

If was during the scene with Ramsay and Roose. Roose explained to Ramsay that an army wouldn't be able to march outside Winterfell, which is when Ramsay said a smaller force would do the trick. And no, nothing justifies burning your daughter. I only understand Stannis's actions, I don't condone them.

 

6 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Some people. Not everyone.. The point is that they did the Stannis-hugs Shireen scene to make it more shocking.

And I disagree.

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Ruhail said:

That motivation is severely downplayed and not made a priority for the show character it's still the throne from him and the showrunners said as much.

 

But it's so hard for a character who starved for a year to go hungry for a days walk to WF don't you know? Jon is clearly a more strong willed commander/character lol

yes, after that siege when Davos became his hand, the destruction of Blackwater.....it's unbelievable. Mel manipulated him so hard. Seems like he turned him into Dr.Jekyll and Mr.Hyde regarding his daughter.........

[Dragon in the North]

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Where and when did they show that? One conversation between STannis and Mel saying there is too much cold outside? I saw nothing you mention.

What it was shown well is the consequences of burning your daughter: it makes half of your men to leave you behind.

It also showed the men shivering violently as they lined up for meager portions of food. Like I said, they could have done much better, but I could see that the state of the camp was bad.

[Meera of Tarth]

look the situation was not as bad. They could have delayed the battle. They could have actually showed A LOT of snow. And they could have also made Mel burn Shireen instead of Stannis or either have cut the scene between him and his daughter............

what we saw was ridiculous.

[Dragon in the North]

4 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

That motivation is severely downplayed and not made a priority for the show character it's still the throne from him and the showrunners said as much.

I actually think the throne is more of a motivation for the book character, while the White Walkers are the primary motivation of the show character. In the books, Stannis doesn't even mention the White Walkers after he leaves Castle Black and doesn't even state what he plans to do next once the Boltons are defeated. In the show, we have Stannis telling Sam to keep researching the White Walkers' weaknesses, Melsandre saying, "Only you can lead the living against the dead," and Stannis telling Shireen, "Once a man discovers who he is, he much fulfill his destiny."

 

7 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

But it's so hard for a character who starved for a year to go hungry for a days walk to WF don't you know? Jon is clearly a more strong willed commander/character lol

The conditions of Storm's End and the conditions of his camp in the North were completely different. At Storm's End, he had walls that acted as a natural protection against the enemy. In the North, he was out in the open in enemy territory, where he was vulnerable to attack. If he didn't move quickly, he would die.

[JonSnow4President]

6 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

I don't care what the showrunners said. I care about what is shown in the show, and it clearly indicates that the White Walkers are Stannis's primary motivation going forward. As for the camp, I agree they could have done a much better job showing that Stannis's army is in bad shape, but they do show the poor conditions and show that the soldiers are cold and hungry. Thanks for the link. I don't have time to read it now, but I will later tonight. However, I've read several articles about Stannis, and none have really changed my view on the book character.

This post is one of the funnier things I've seen this offseason. 

What is shown is Stannis burn his daughter so he can go to Winterfell to overthrow the Boltons and gain the North.  What is TOLD (in story) is that he's doing it for both pressing his claim as King, with a presumption that he is doing so at this point so he can defend the kingdom.  However, they don't talk explicitly about the second half of that very often.  Combine that with the showrunners explicitly clarifying the motivations, and I go with that. Because what is shown doesn't conflict with what they say, like some other scenes.  

What is shown is snow levels I've seen in Texas causing an army to get bogged down because of laughable circumstances. What is shown is Stannis being in walking distance from Winterfell, and being close enough to Castle Black that a lone woman can travel easily.  What is shown is a massive calvary charge obliterating Stannis with their mobility not hindered in any way.  What is shown is an angry gruff self-righteous bastard who is never anything other than an angry gruff self-righteous bastard, outside 2 scenes where he shows a moderate amount of affection for his daughter. 

The show doesn't show anything you're describing.   

 

[Dragon in the North]

1 minute ago, JonSnow4President said:

What is shown is Stannis burn his daughter so he can go to Winterfell to overthrow the Boltons and gain the North.  What is TOLD (in story) is that he's doing it for both pressing his claim as King, with a presumption that he is doing so at this point so he can defend the kingdom.  However, they don't talk explicitly about the second half of that very often.  Combine that with the showrunners explicitly clarifying the motivations, and I go with that. Because what is shown doesn't conflict with what they say, like some other scenes.  

I addressed this in a previous post, but I'll post it here to. In the show, we have Stannis telling Sam to keep researching the White Walkers' weaknesses, Melsandre saying, "Only you can lead the living against the dead," and Stannis telling Shireen, "Once a man discovers who he is, he much fulfill his destiny." All of this points to Stannis wanting to save the world from the White Walkers. That is what is shown in the story. The showrunners' comments about Stannis only caring about ambition is directly contradicted by the show.

 

4 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

What is shown is snow levels I've seen in Texas causing an army to get bogged down because of laughable circumstances. What is shown is Stannis being in walking distance from Winterfell, and being close enough to Castle Black that a lone woman can travel easily.  What is shown is a massive calvary charge obliterating Stannis with their mobility not hindered in any way.  What is shown is an angry gruff self-righteous bastard who is never anything other than an angry gruff self-righteous bastard, outside 2 scenes where he shows a moderate amount of affection for his daughter. 

The show doesn't show anything you're describing.   

 

Being within walking distance doesn't matter if you're trapped in a blizzard. Melisandre was only able to ride back to Castle Black once the snow is melted. The massive calvary charge only occurred after the snow was melted. What is shown is a man who tried to fulfill a bigger purpose than himself and failed. Stannis's story in the show is a tragic one.

[Meera of Tarth]

40 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

He and his army were about to die. Saving Shireen as a trump card against the White Walkers wouldn't matter if they were all dead.

 

If was during the scene with Ramsay and Roose. Roose explained to Ramsay that an army wouldn't be able to march outside Winterfell, which is when Ramsay said a smaller force would do the trick. And no, nothing justifies burning your daughter. I only understand Stannis's actions, I don't condone them.

 

And I disagree.

so what's the point of the Stannis/Shireen scene if not to hate him more once realising he did really care for her daughter to then brutally burn her alive?

[Meera of Tarth]

34 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

I actually think the throne is more of a motivation for the book character, while the White Walkers are the primary motivation of the show character. In the books, Stannis doesn't even mention the White Walkers after he leaves Castle Black and doesn't even state what he plans to do next once the Boltons are defeated. In the show, we have Stannis telling Sam to keep researching the White Walkers' weaknesses, Melsandre saying, "Only you can lead the living against the dead," and Stannis telling Shireen, "Once a man discovers who he is, he much fulfill his destiny."

 

The conditions of Storm's End and the conditions of his camp in the North were completely different. At Storm's End, he had walls that acted as a natural protection against the enemy. In the North, he was out in the open in enemy territory, where he was vulnerable to attack. If he didn't move quickly, he would die.

if his destiny is to defeat the WW what's the point in defeating the Boltons knowing he will lose important men necessay for the battles to come?

[JonSnow4President]

24 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

I addressed this in a previous post, but I'll post it here to. In the show, we have Stannis telling Sam to keep researching the White Walkers' weaknesses, Melsandre saying, "Only you can lead the living against the dead," and Stannis telling Shireen, "Once a man discovers who he is, he much fulfill his destiny." All of this points to Stannis wanting to save the world from the White Walkers. That is what is shown in the story. The showrunners' comments about Stannis only caring about ambition is directly contradicted by the show.

 

Being within walking distance doesn't matter if you're trapped in a blizzard. Melisandre was only able to ride back to Castle Black once the snow is melted. The massive calvary charge only occurred after the snow was melted. What is shown is a man who tried to fulfill a bigger purpose than himself and failed. Stannis's story in the show is a tragic one.

We are simply seeing very different shows.  I see a show that has a couple minor scenes over the White Walkers, compared to many more scenes about him being king, killing people for not kneeling to him, demanding he's the king, etc. The focus is on the kingship, and 3 scenes otherwise are just pebbles thrown in the Trident. 

Once again, snow not shown.  It's flurries.  The situation creating the dire starvation required laughable incompetence for it to happen. 

[Dragon in the North]

23 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

so what's the point of the Stannis/Shireen scene if not to hate him more once realising he did really care for her daughter to then brutally burn her alive?

I already answered this. It was to show how hard of a decision it was for Stannis, and that he didn't come to the decision lightly. 

 

25 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

if his destiny is to defeat the WW what's the point in defeating the Boltons knowing he will lose important men necessay for the battles to come?

As Melisandre said, "You must become king before the Long Night begins. Only you could lead the living against the dead."

[Dragon in the North]

25 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

We are simply seeing very different shows.  I see a show that has a couple minor scenes over the White Walkers, compared to many more scenes about him being king, killing people for not kneeling to him, demanding he's the king, etc. The focus is on the kingship, and 3 scenes otherwise are just pebbles thrown in the Trident. 

Once again, snow not shown.  It's flurries.  The situation creating the dire starvation required laughable incompetence for it to happen. 

The scenes you're talking about were before Stannis knew about the White Walkers. In the earlier seasons, becoming king was his goal, but once he learned  the truth, his focus shifts towards the real enemy.

[JonSnow4President]

1 minute ago, Dragon in the North said:

The scenes you're talking about were before Stannis knew about the White Walkers. In the earlier seasons, becoming king was his goal, but once he learned  the truth, his focus shifts towards the real enemy.

I will admit season 5 and 6 are where I'm weakest, because I haven't rewatched them a few times (seen season 5 2-3 times depending on if the episode was leaked, and season 6 once).  I recall a lot of season 5 Stannis making that complaint.

[StepStark]

2 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Shireen's death was foreshadowed in the earlier seasons, so her death wasn't used for shock factor.

The foreshadowing was so "successful" that literally everyone was shocked when Shireen's death scene was leaked hours before the episode originally aired. Not to mention that the leak is highly suspicious after what Alexander Siddig said in that interview. That's how good a job D&D did with foreshadowing of Shireen's fate.

2 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

It was used to develop Stannis's character.

And what a development it was: disgraced and killed at the beginning of the very next episode.

[Dragon in the North]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

The foreshadowing was so "successful" that literally everyone was shocked when Shireen's death scene was leaked hours before the episode originally aired. Not to mention that the leak is highly suspicious after what Alexander Siddig said in that interview. That's how good a job D&D did with foreshadowing of Shireen's fate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1r03wst_8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sx8Yu_n23c

These two scenes foreshadowed Shireen's fate. It's subtle, but I prefer subtle foreshadowing anyway. Just because not every viewer caught it doesn't mean the foreshadowing doesn't exist.  And I can't believe you actually believe what Alexander Siddig said. What possible reason would HBO have of leaking their own episodes? How do they benefit?

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

And what a development it was: disgraced and killed at the beginning of the very next episode.

Stannis's arc was that of a tragic figure. The fact that he died in disgrace was the whole point of his storyline.