Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

[MoreOrLess]

5 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

I don't care what the showrunners said. I care about what is shown in the show, and it clearly indicates that the White Walkers are Stannis's primary motivation going forward. As for the camp, I agree they could have done a much better job showing that Stannis's army is in bad shape, but they do show the poor conditions and show that the soldiers are cold and hungry. Thanks for the link. I don't have time to read it now, but I will later tonight. However, I've read several articles about Stannis, and none have really changed my view on the book character.

I think they were in the situation of naturally wanting to have Stannis's plot contained to season 5 but being 1-2 episodes short of what they idealy needed but as you say I think they do a decent enough job of showing that conditions in his camp are poor. I don't think a guerrilla sneak attack on a foreign invading army in terrible weather is very unrealistic, I would have liked to see a bit more of it but again I think both time and budget were an issue. I think the show rightly realised that Hardhome was more important to devote time and money to than action around Stannis as really its the character himself that's most interesting and Dilane is has such a strong screen presence he can sell it.

As you say his arc from the very start was setup as a tragic figure although I think the show did exactly the right thing in not making him a blind follower of Mel(although he does obviously believe what she tells him he doesn't lose his own moral judgement entirely) as he wife was, that would IMHO have been too easy on him devoicing him too much from responsibility for his actions. That its mixed in with doubt and ambition I think makes his plot a lot more realistic and impactful, he's basically Dany or Jon if they follow "the end justify the means".

[Cron]

12 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

I think Stannis was probably one of  the worst things done (if not the worst) from Season 5. 

Firstly, there is a beautiful scene when he reconnects with his daughter-that I loved, then he is "forced" to sacrifice her beloved daughter because 1 inch of snow and 20 Good Men are The end of World; and finally because now we have to hate him for what he did, Brienne goes there and instead of trying to save Sansa kills kim for revenge, because he deserved that.

They manipulated his story so as to make Shireen's death more shocking (he loved her!) and illogic and then his death just because the bad guy has to die after that.

Well, I hear you (and I agree that a lot of it was illogical and poorly done), but they claim the burning of Shireen is canon.

I'm not saying I like it, though, cuz I actually detest it...but they say it's canon.  (It can't happen exactly that way in the books, obviously, but apparently it is going to happen in the books)

[Meera of Tarth]

7 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, I hear you (and I agree that a lot of it was illogical and poorly done), but they claim the burning of Shireen is canon.

I'm not saying I like it, though, cuz I actually detest it...but they say it's canon.  (It can't happen exactly that way in the books, obviously, but apparently it is going to happen in the books)

the fact it is canon doesn't mean it makes sense the way they did that in the show as I mentioned

[Meera of Tarth]

13 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1r03wst_8

Stannis's arc was that of a tragic figure. The fact that he died in disgrace was the whole point of his storyline.

for some reason I can't delete the link. I don't disagree with the forrdhadowing.

BUT

STANNIS' arc was messed uo in S5. He was at least somewhat consistent until they showed he did everything to save his daughter of her disease. You don't show that to show that he is troubled when he has to make the decision of killing her daughter.....he Just tells Mel a little surprised that he doesn't want and then......uuuuu she is burnt. They did it to make the audience hate his character trying to prepare them for his final scene with Brienne. Bad guys like him must die!!!!!

 

[Meera of Tarth]

and let's not forget his purpose was the vast majoruty of time to be KING. If after that he would have to save the world ok...he would probably say yes. But why did he have to destroy the Boltons if he ONLY wanted to become tPtwP?

that sacrificr would have only made sense to save the whole world if anything.

he wanted to be king and burn his heiress. Well, Darwin theory can be applied. That doesn't meant the scened make sense anyway.

[Cron]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

the fact it is canon doesn't mean it makes sense the way they did that in the show as I mentioned

I agree with you, as I said above.

In fact, I said I found it to be "illogical," "poorly done," and that I "detest" it.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Cron said:

I agree with you, as I said above.

In fact, I said I found it to be "illogical," "poorly done," and that I "detest" it.

great

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

great

Uh oh.

Did I step on your toes?

If so, sorry., and why don't you PM me about it?  I like talking with you, and I consider you a friend.

[Meera of Tarth]

36 minutes ago, Cron said:

Uh oh.

Did I step on your toes?

If so, sorry., and why don't you PM me about it?  I like talking with you, and I consider you a friend.

No offence, I meant it's great that we agree on that it was illogical, I was just giving a short response.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

22 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Stannis's arc was that of a tragic figure. The fact that he died in disgrace was the whole point of his storyline.

He died in a battle as a commander. But he didn't end up in Ramsay's dungeons. That would the worst.

Actually I felt a deep sympathy to show!Stannis. He was determined and tragic, kind of Ned without love. And I think Stephen Dillane did a great job. But still I don't see any sense in Stannis's death from the plot's point of view. Kill Stannis or let him freeze and wait, it didn't change anything

[JonSnow4President]

9 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

He died in a battle as a commander. But he didn't end up in Ramsay's dungeons. That would the worst.

Actually I felt a deep sympathy to show!Stannis. He was determined and tragic, kind of Ned without love. And I think Stephen Dillane did a great job. But still I don't see any sense in Stannis's death from the plot's point of view. Kill Stannis or let him freeze and wait, it didn't change anything

Plot wise, he dies so Sansa and Jon can take over his retake Winterfell plot, and possibly his role in the fight against the Others/White Walkers, although we are dealing with a certain amount of speculation in that statement. (However, it is required to make Stannis burning Shireen work in books, as they are apart for the battle against the Bolton's). 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

13 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Plot wise, he dies so Sansa and Jon can take over his retake Winterfell plot, and possibly his role in the fight against the Others/White Walkers, although we are dealing with a certain amount of speculation in that statement. (However, it is required to make Stannis burning Shireen work in books, as they are apart for the battle against the Bolton's). 

You are right. And Mel ihad to stay behind to save Jon. But still I miss something in this storyline. I don't think Stannis would burn Shireen for any smaller stake than saving the Realm. I don't remember the qote exactly, but in the books he said smth like "I thought I have t become a king to save the Realm, but aparently I have to save the Real to become a king".

[JonSnow4President]

15 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

You are right. And Mel ihad to stay behind to save Jon. But still I miss something in this storyline. I don't think Stannis would burn Shireen for any smaller stake than saving the Realm. I don't remember the qote exactly, but in the books he said smth like "I thought I have t become a king to save the Realm, but aparently I have to save the Real to become a king".

Quote

 

"I am no lord, sire. You came because we sent for you, I hope. Though I could not say why you took so long about it."

Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. "You're bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight."

 

Gives it a little more sureness from him than "but apparently I have to save the realm to become a king"

[Cron]

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No offence, I meant it's great that we agree on that it was illogical, I was just giving a short response.

Ahhh, okay, cool.

Glad to hear it.

[MoreOrLess]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 0:41 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

He died in a battle as a commander. But he didn't end up in Ramsay's dungeons. That would the worst.

Actually I felt a deep sympathy to show!Stannis. He was determined and tragic, kind of Ned without love. And I think Stephen Dillane did a great job. But still I don't see any sense in Stannis's death from the plot's point of view. Kill Stannis or let him freeze and wait, it didn't change anything

If D&D had simply "hated" Stannis that's what would have happened, Ramsay mutilating him or mocking his corpse.

I actually felt that in the scene with Brienne he comes off the better of the two, basically acknowledging everything he'd done and accepting/desiring death. He could certainly have shot her position full of holes legally and morally if he'd wanted to and whilst she obviously hasn't committed the acts he has in the past I still think she comes across as a lot less self aware by that point, still rather naïve and pompous.

What I think D&D were obviously less keen on is the complex politics and tactics around Stannis, my guess is that the end result for him will be similar but a good deal more complex. I think what they wanted was a story that had more of a clean break for each season, Stannis tries and fails to defeat the Boltons and then Jon builds up a separate effort to do so and succeeds rather than the two being much more interconnected.

Stannis's position with Shireen seemed pretty clear to me, snowed in and facing the destruction of his force by the weather.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

@MoreOrLess I agree with you. Despite all Stannis's wrongdoings (including Shireen), his death scene looked like finishing off rather than a justice.

[MoreOrLess]

3 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@MoreOrLess I agree with you. Despite all Stannis's wrongdoings (including Shireen), his death scene looked like finishing off rather than a justice.

It makes sense of course, its the denouncement of Stannis's character and whilst there wasn't an redemption there was at least some acknowledgement of what he'd done and a good deal of dignity.

In Brienne's case its not the end of her story and I strongly suspect that her rather naïve world view that links honour/duty(and a good bit of revenge) to moral correctness is going to be challenged in the future, maybe caught up in plots involving Sansa and LF?

The moral wrongness in killing Renly was that it was kinslaying and that's for Stannis to judge himself on not Brienne, besides that he was not a legitmate king who refused favourable terms to support Stannis and assassinating him avoided greater bloodshed.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

41 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

In Brienne's case its not the end of her story and I strongly suspect that her rather naïve world view that links honour/duty(and a good bit of revenge) to moral correctness is going to be challenged in the future, maybe caught up in plots involving Sansa and LF?

I think Brienne's black and white world view has already been challenged by Jaime, especially when he shared his story of killing the Mad King. But this development will definitely go further.

Whether killing Renly was an appropriate way to deal with a situation is  a very speculative question. But I agree with you, it wasn't Brienne's right or duty to judge and punish Stannis, it was her personal revenge.

[dsug]

I can't wait for Stannis to burn Shireen then die in TWOW. 

[Cron]

16 hours ago, MoreOrLess said:

It makes sense of course, its the denouncement of Stannis's character and whilst there wasn't an redemption there was at least some acknowledgement of what he'd done and a good deal of dignity.

In Brienne's case its not the end of her story and I strongly suspect that her rather naïve world view that links honour/duty(and a good bit of revenge) to moral correctness is going to be challenged in the future, maybe caught up in plots involving Sansa and LF?

The moral wrongness in killing Renly was that it was kinslaying and that's for Stannis to judge himself on not Brienne, besides that he was not a legitmate king who refused favourable terms to support Stannis and assassinating him avoided greater bloodshed.

I really didn't have a problem with Stannis crossing off Renly (sounds to me like you didn't either, but maybe I'm wrong).  Renly was clearly and indisputably a usurper, he didn't even have an argument for a claim to the Throne, he just basically tried to take it by force and justify it by saying "No one wants you for their king, brother."  Also, as you say, he was offered very reasonable terms and rejected them.  He was a flat out usurper, and thousands of lives were saved by Stannis and Melisandre crossing off Renly the way they did (in my opinion, any "kinslaying" concern went out the window b/c of Renly's own actions.  Is there any doubt Renly would have killed Stannis in the battle if it came to that? Not in my mind.  Indeed, I'd say a strong "self-defense" argument can be made for Stannis in this matter.  Renly was the aggressor, and he was wrong) .

Now, the burning of Shireen...THAT was unforgivable.  Stannis did something outrageous just to roll dice that it MIGHT be the only way to save the realm, which is bad enough, but on top of that, he was wrong.  As Davos basically pointed out to Melisandre (when he confronted her at Winterfell with Jon in the room), the entire campaign was a total disaster, and they all died, except Davos and Melisandre, who were easily able to retreat to safety at Castle Black.  Davos was Stannis' moral compass, and that is why Stannis sent Davos away, cuz he knew Davos would never approve and would very, very likely talk him out of it.  I found the whole thing utterly appalling.