Jump to content

Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?


Cron

Recommended Posts

Please tell me how Stannis grow wings to fly back to Castle Black and burn Shireen because of some snow and Ramsay breaking him. It doesnt matter if grrm has Stannis burn Shireen in Twow because hes not going to character assainate  and warp it all just to have Jon fight Ramsay like the show. Plus grrm's opinion of the character is completely different anyway so, it wont be for hurrr "Renly was murdered by an evil unlawful king." bs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

The rape is bad in both mediums. But more shocking and gratuitous in the show.

Theon being obligued to prepare Jeyne is rape and trauma for both characters, but as I said: in the books we didn't see how he brutally fucks her, but the show decided to show it. The screams were horrible. Because a rapist fucking someone is brutal, painful, and can even kill her or injure her a lot. If that is not shocking and gratuitous for you, I don't know what it is.

And the consequences of the books to the character of Jeyne I highly doubt will be finished.

-We don't know how Stannis (if he does it and the author doesn't change it) will do it. It won't be as shocking as it is in the show. Or do you think that the scene before that when he changes his personality and becomes a loving father was not meant to see the burning scene as more shocking? Do you think we will have that scene with the hug in the books just before? I bet no. I don't understand why you don't understand my previous sentence.

-Yes, we know Jon is coming back, and we also know what happens to people who comes back: LSH: consequences. But hey, we don't even know for certain if Jon is dead, but if he is, I bet he'll be changed in some way.

Oh yes, she does. Did I say the contrary? Do you read the content of my posts, actually? It's not who she kills in the show or in the books but HOW she does it, and especially WHEN. Key words: silent assassin vs sadist in the finales-

As for the dark path, she is not in as darker path as other characters who are men or older. I don't particularly enjoy it, but she will develop in both mediums.

1.  They were going to show the rape.  How could they not?  

2.  The Stannis scene was meant to make the burning scene more sad and shocking.  Why is that bad?  I don't think we'll get a similar scene in the books because he is not a POV character.  

3.  Jon was suffering from severe PTSD throughout Season 6.  Episodes 3,4, and 9 do a good job setting that up but that is one of my quibbles with Season 6 is that I'd have liked more of an exploration of Jon's emotional state.  However, I don't think that Kit Harington could have pulled off something that subtle.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

1.  They were going to show the rape.  How could they not?  

2.  The Stannis scene was meant to make the burning scene more sad and shocking.  Why is that bad?  I don't think we'll get a similar scene in the books because he is not a POV character.  

 

1. How could they not? It was their decision to show it. They could have not show it. They decided to show the beginning and the screams, they could have avoided everything and end with credits. They could have avoided even raping anyone (and Sansa), but that's another issue. We were talking about it being shocking or not. It is, and disturbing. It was not needed. With the bruises and what they did after the rape people would have understood it. But they seem to like showing shocking moments, especially involving violence and death.

2. So you ackowledge it was to show the subsequent burning scene as more schoking. Fine. That was my point. :dunno:They use shocking moments with inconsistencies in character (Stannis good father, Stannis evil, Stannis has to be executed) all the time. And that is what has made the last seasons especially S5 much worse. Which was my point all the time.

Let's not address Dorne's shocking moments because I shoudl have put them as the main example.

Quote

3.  Jon was suffering from severe PTSD throughout Season 6.  Episodes 3,4, and 9 do a good job setting that up but that is one of my quibbles with Season 6 is that I'd have liked more of an exploration of Jon's emotional state.  However, I don't think that Kit Harington could have pulled off something that subtle.  

I didn't see any PTSD in the show. I saw Jon being the same and one scene being a little confused. If she had awakened saying hello it would have been comical

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are we watching a different show or something? We didn't see Ramsay rape Sansa...it was literally offscreen. We heard her yell out in pain for a second and see Theon's face, but there is no rape shown on the screen. It wasn't brutal and gratutituous, it was literally not even depicted. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, dsug said:

Are we watching a different show or something? We didn't see Ramsay rape Sansa...it was literally offscreen. We heard her yell out in pain for a second and see Theon's face, but there is no rape shown on the screen. It wasn't brutal and gratutituous, it was literally not even depicted. 

Yeah, because a beloved character having her clothes torn off and crying in the background whilst Theon cried man-tears was obviously respectful. No, Sansa wasn't even supposed to be at Winterfell. The fact that she was there to create rape drama was by itself brutal and gratuitous. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

1. How could they not? It was their decision to show it. They could have not show it. They decided to show the beginning and the screams, they could have avoided everything and end with credits. They could have avoided even raping anyone (and Sansa), but that's another issue. We were talking about it being shocking or not. It is, and disturbing. It was not needed. With the bruises and what they did after the rape people would have understood it. But they seem to like showing shocking moments, especially involving violence and death.

2. So you ackowledge it was to show the subsequent burning scene as more schoking. Fine. That was my point. :dunno:They use shocking moments with inconsistencies in character (Stannis good father, Stannis evil, Stannis has to be executed) all the time. And that is what has made the last seasons especially S5 much worse. Which was my point all the time.

Let's not address Dorne's shocking moments because I shoudl have put them as the main example.

I didn't see any PTSD in the show. I saw Jon being the same and one scene being a little confused. If she had awakened saying hello it would have been comical

Wow.  You don't think that Jon is suffering from PTSD?  You missed the part where he essentially tried to get himself killed during the BOTB.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, farerb said:

Maybe by not have Sansa marry Ramsay in the most illogical and pointless way.

Tywin gave the Boltons Jeyne Poole for the same reason.  They just had one of the main actors explore that arc rather than casting another role.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

Wow.  You don't think that Jon is suffering from PTSD?  You missed the part where he essentially tried to get himself killed during the BOTB.  

I think he was confused because of everything that had happened and he said to Melisandre that if he was killed this time would prefer to remain dead, because he felt it is what has to happen, he doesn't want to be better than others (just like her love, Ygritte, she wasn't resurrected,) it's an honour thing.

I know the show played with this a little, with the confusion and everything, and it was fine, but I didn't think it was like a PTSD.

He went into battle because he truly wanted to save his brother, but he has risked his life many times before. He didn't want to kill himself at all. He knew he could be killed, but he preferred to survive and save his brother,:dunno: it was just that

But my point was that unlike Beric, his personality didn't change. We could arguee that Beric had been killed many more times, but it had consequences. Ultimately, I think there was no point to kill and resurrect him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

Tywin gave the Boltons Jeyne Poole for the same reason.  They just had one of the main actors explore that arc rather than casting another role.

They didn't need to cast the role because there weren't any northern lords who opposed the Boltons, apparently they didn't like the Starks anyway.

Tywin didn't give them Jayne Poole for the same reason, he wanted the Boltons to control the North until Tyrion had an heir from Sansa so the Lannisters could clame Winterfell and expose Jayne as not Arya.

That is not the same thing as LF giving up his "Key to the North", who's wanted for regicide, and leaving there unprotected (seriously couldn't he leave some knights from the vale?!). Bolton had no reason to betray the Lannisters since there were no northern lords who opposed him. Sansa had no reason to marry into the family who murdered her family AND SHE ACTUALLY CHOSE THIS. why?!?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think he was confused because of everything that had happened and he said to Melisandre that if he was killed this time would prefer to remain dead, because he felt it is what has to happen, he doesn't want to be better than others (just like her love, Ygritte, she wasn't resurrected,) it's an honour thing.

I know the show played with this a little, with the confusion and everything, and it was fine, but I didn't think it was like a PTSD.

He went into battle because he truly wanted to save his brother, but he has risked his life many times before. He didn't want to kill himself at all. He knew he could be killed, but he preferred to survive and save his brother,:dunno: it was just that

But my point was that unlike Beric, his personality didn't change. We could arguee that Beric had been killed many more times, but it had consequences. Ultimately, I think there was no point to kill and resurrect him.

No.  The producers mentioned that Jon was truly screwed up and wanted to die.  Kit himself mentioned that it wasn't until he is nearly trample by his men and has to fight to the top does he truly decide that he wants to live.  The showrunners compared that scene to Dany's Mysha scene.  Boy spends much of the season as a shell desperately clinging to some lifeline.  He walks away from his command, something that pre-resurrection Jon would never do and is going to just leave everything.  Protecting Sansa and Rickon gives him something to cling to but he is still going through the motions.  I do think that the arc could have been done better; putting a scene about Jon grappling with his resurrection would have been helpful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

Un

No.  The producers mentioned that Jon was truly screwed up and wanted to die.  Kit himself mentioned that it wasn't until he is nearly trample by his men and has to fight to the top does he truly decide that he wants to live.  The showrunners compared that scene to Dany's Mysha scene.  Boy spends much of the season as a shell desperately clinging to some lifeline.  He walks away from his command, something that pre-resurrection Jon would never do and is going to just leave everything.  Protecting Sansa and Rickon gives him something to cling to but he is still going through the motions.  I do think that the arc could have been done better; putting a scene about Jon grappling with his resurrection would have been helpful.

I don't recall anything of these. I think I watched all the inside the episodes but maybe I am wrong.

what I remember from that episode is that he is not in suicidal mode at all but he wants to save his brother and die fighting with all his energies if that happens.

in fact the only emotional part that I like from that episode is when Jon gets so determined hat wants to risk himself in order to save hus brother while he is running, and also the fact that then wants to fight with anger because he has just died. His determination is not in killing himself but in killing that bastard called Ramsay whatever thePrice is.

in some way all the others, Davos, Tormund, etc wang the same and risk their lives, but they want to gain the battle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

Yeah, because a beloved character having her clothes torn off and crying in the background whilst Theon cried man-tears was obviously respectful. No, Sansa wasn't even supposed to be at Winterfell. The fact that she was there to create rape drama was by itself brutal and gratuitous. 

Oh I'm sorry you must have misread. I never said anything about the scene being "respectful." What I said was that there is no rape depicted on screen. There was implied, unambiguous rape off screen, but no such act was simulated by actors in front of a camera. We didn't actually see anything but Sophie's shoulders, which was about as gratuitous as it got. Her cries were heartbreaking to hear, but that's all we got. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't recall anything of these. I think I watched all the inside the episodes but maybe I am wrong.

what I remember from that episode is that he is not in suicidal mode at all but he wants to save his brother and die fighting with all his energies if that happens.

in fact the only emotional part that I like from that episode is when Jon gets so determined hat wants to risk himself in order to save hus brother while he is running, and also the fact that then wants to fight with anger because he has just died. His determination is not in killing himself but in killing that bastard called Ramsay whatever thePrice is.

in some way all the others, Davos, Tormund, etc wang the same and risk their lives, but they want to gain the battle.

Actually, it is implied that he is in a very bad place and that the first time he truly wishes to live is when he emerges from under that pile of men.  Kit mentions as much in the commentary and inside the episode.  And there is no way he can survive a single charge into enemy lines.  He is prepared to die and take as many Boltons with him.  

And yes, after Jon emerges from being buried alive; he very much wants to kill Ramsay.  That is a very different Jon than the one in the beginning of the battle. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

Actually, it is implied that he is in a very bad place and that the first time he truly wishes to live is when he emerges from under that pile of men.  Kit mentions as much in the commentary and inside the episode.  And there is no way he can survive a single charge into enemy lines.  He is prepared to die and take as many Boltons with him.  

And yes, after Jon emerges from being buried alive; he very much wants to kill Ramsay.  That is a very different Jon than the one in the beginning of the battle. 

Well I didn't watch it this way but I will take into account on a rewatch.

however, I Thought this was part of Ramsay's trap, that Sansa reminds him before. Ramsay wants him there and expects him to be there because he knows he will run to save Rickon. This is being in a trap IMHO not wanting to die.

anyway' I don't remember all the scenes, I could be wring and he might have "wanted to die" at some moment maybe when he sees Rickon is dead...but I didn't have that impression when watching the episode that he was wanting to die all the time at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think he was confused because of everything that had happened and he said to Melisandre that if he was killed this time would prefer to remain dead, because he felt it is what has to happen, he doesn't want to be better than others (just like her love, Ygritte, she wasn't resurrected,) it's an honour thing.

I know the show played with this a little, with the confusion and everything, and it was fine, but I didn't think it was like a PTSD.

He went into battle because he truly wanted to save his brother, but he has risked his life many times before. He didn't want to kill himself at all. He knew he could be killed, but he preferred to survive and save his brother,:dunno: it was just that

But my point was that unlike Beric, his personality didn't change. We could arguee that Beric had been killed many more times, but it had consequences. Ultimately, I think there was no point to kill and resurrect him.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here (more than I disagree, in fact), but conversationally I would note that I was not surprised Jon's personality didn't noticeably change much (if at all) after his resurrection.

First, note that I said "noticeably."  Jon is a highly introspective brooder by nature, and not much ot a talker.  Even if he HAD changed dramatically, how would anyone know?  HAR! (By the way, many people blame Kit Harrington for this, claiming Kit can't show acting range, but I don't.  It is WHO JON SNOW IS, and I believe the character and personality of show-Jon is VERY similar to book-Jon.  I have no complaints whatsoever about Kit's portrayal of Jon, and to fairly judge Kit as an actor beyond "Jon Snow" I'd have to see more of his work.)

Second:  Regarding Beric Dondarrion, yes, the difference between him and Jon is that Beric has been resurrected 6 times.  Indeed, in the show, I am positive Beric specifically says he "loses a little more" of himself each time. So, "number of resurrections" definitely matters.

Third, we also know for a fact that it matters how long a person is dead.  For example, in the books Cat lay dead in the river for weeks, as I strongly recall, and I believe it is specifically said that that had an effect on her condition upon return.  Now, I think we know Jon was dead for maybe a day or two, but how long was Beric dead each time?  Far as I recall, we don't know how long he was dead for ANY of those six times, book or show, much less what his "cumulative dead time" was.  Thus, it is possible that Beric's total time spent dead is well in excess of even Cat's.

But hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing, just making conversation.  Like I said, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, although at the same time I think I understand where the people you are discussing these matters with are coming from, too.  It's just different perspectives.

My view of Jon leading up to and during the Battle of the Bastards is very similar to yours, but I can see how others might view it a little differently, too.  Ultimately, to ME, a lot of the confusion was caused by the fact that those scenes, in my strong opinion, were NOT driven by a desire to develop Jon's character (or anyone else's), but rather, the writing and filming of those scenes were driven by a desire to have a "big scene battle royal spectacle."  

As such, I'm pretty skeptical about drawing ANY conclusions about Jon from it at all.  

Example:  Why did Jon foolishly face down a full cavalry charge on foot with only a sword instead of doing what I believe any SANE person would have done, which was to at least TRY to get back to his forces before he was pounded and slashed to PULP in about 3 seconds, which WOULD have happened to him if not for his "two feet thick plot armor"??? 

 Answer:  Cuz it made a great visual spectacle to see Jon standing there on foot with only a sword facing down a cavalry charge which surely would have meant his death in mere seconds if not for the aforementioned plot armor.  Do I believe Jon wanted to die cuz he did that?  No, I believe Jon did that cuz the showrunners wanted TO FILM IT, The End, and I infer virtually nothing about Jon's character, personality or state of mind b/c of it

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Cron said:

 

My view of Jon leading up to and during the Battle of the Bastards is very similar to yours, but I can see how others might view it a little differently, too.  Ultimately, to ME, a lot of the confusion was caused by the fact that those scenes, in my strong opinion, were NOT driven by a desire to develop Jon's character (or anyone else's), but rather, the writing and filming of those scenes were driven by a desire to have a "big scene battle royal spectacle."  

As such, I'm pretty skeptical about drawing ANY conclusions about Jon from it at all.  

Example:  Why did Jon foolishly face down a full cavalry charge on foot with only a sword instead of doing what I believe any SANE person would have done, which was to at least TRY to get back to his forces before he was pounded and slashed to PULP in about 3 seconds, which WOULD have happened to him if not for his "two feet thick plot armor"??? 

 Answer:  Cuz it made a great visual spectacle to see Jon standing there on foot with only a sword facing down a cavalry charge which surely would have meant his death in mere seconds if not for the aforementioned plot armor.  Do I believe Jon wanted to die cuz he did that?  No, I believe Jon did that cuz the showrunners wanted TO FILM IT, The End, and I infer virtually nothing about Jon's character, personality or state of mind b/c of it

 

Ye I agree. It was made this way because it was visually appealing and also i suspect because of the frustration of seeing Ramsay's trap and the death of his brother, that he could not save him. He wanted to do anything and lost control of his actions because of the feelings from that moment

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/29/2016 at 1:28 PM, farerb said:

They didn't need to cast the role because there weren't any northern lords who opposed the Boltons, apparently they didn't like the Starks anyway.

Tywin didn't give them Jayne Poole for the same reason, he wanted the Boltons to control the North until Tyrion had an heir from Sansa so the Lannisters could clame Winterfell and expose Jayne as not Arya.

That is not the same thing as LF giving up his "Key to the North", who's wanted for regicide, and leaving there unprotected (seriously couldn't he leave some knights from the vale?!). Bolton had no reason to betray the Lannisters since there were no northern lords who opposed him. Sansa had no reason to marry into the family who murdered her family AND SHE ACTUALLY CHOSE THIS. why?!?

I actually thought that the fact that many of the Northern lords were a bit hesitant and sat out the battle was a better storyline than the North Remembers.  Robb made huge mistakes as a leader and the North suffered because of these mistakes.  However, this was pretty much handwaved in the book, which didn't make sense.  The show dealt with the controversy.  

And yes, you can prefer the book set up of the storyline to the show's but it is silly to complain that the story itself, which is basically Ramsay raping and being a sadistic monster to a teenaged girl, was added to the show because of shock value.  It was in the books!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, kg1982 said:

I actually thought that the fact that many of the Northern lords were a bit hesitant and sat out the battle was a better storyline than the North Remembers.  Robb made huge mistakes as a leader and the North suffered because of these mistakes.  However, this was pretty much handwaved in the book, which didn't make sense.  The show dealt with the controversy.  

And yes, you can prefer the book set up of the storyline to the show's but it is silly to complain that the story itself, which is basically Ramsay raping and being a sadistic monster to a teenaged girl, was added to the show because of shock value.  It was in the books!

The book had more things going on other than Ramsay raping his bride, they stripped everything from that storyline and kept only the part that Ramsay rapes his bride, and I know that people can get confused from watching the show but that storyline isn't about Ramsay, but for some reason they decided that he was the main character and that Sansa needs to serve his storyline instead of actually continuing her own arc. They even said it: “You have this storyline with Ramsay".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...