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Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?


Cron

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3 hours ago, Cron said:

Here's my understanding:

There's a LOT of talk about whether Jeyne Westerling is really pregnant or not, and whether her mother was really giving her a contraceptive or not.

In fact, it relates to the question of whether Jaime Lannister actually met the REAL Jeyne Westerling (there are reasons to believe he did not, but rather, that the Jeyne Westerling that Jaime Lannister met was an imposter, set forth by the Westerlings to hide the fact that Jeyne is really pregnant with Robb Stark's heir, who would be a threat to Lannister power.  it's too much for me to recall it all or type it all, but in my strong opinion if you look into it you should be able to find very detailed discussions of these theories.  One "clue," for example, as I recall, is said to be the fact that when Cat Stark meets Jeyne we are told (in Cat's POV) that Jeyne has broad, child-bearing hips, but when Jaime meets "Jeyne" we are told, through Jaime's POV, that Jeyne has narrow hips, which is not only different from what Cat told us, but also an odd thing for a man (Jaime) to ever notice or think about in the first place.

Again, in sum, the theory is that the REAL Jeyne Westerling is in hiding, and pregnant with Robb Stark's child.

(By the way, this would also be VERY much in line with other sub-plots in ASOIAF as well, as it would NOT be the first time an imposter was passed off as someone else.  Two examples:   Varys claims to have used an imposter in place of baby Aegon to fool the Lannisters, and Jeyne Poole is used an imposter in place of Arya Stark)

Well, that's an eye-opener. 

I had no idea this idea was being expounded. 

Where do I go to learn more?

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On 6/1/2017 at 7:11 AM, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Yes, I prefer the way the characters are aged up in the show because GRRM's tendency to go into detail about a thirteen/fourteen year old's sex life makes my stomach churn and gives me bad vibes. Like why so much details, George?

I also prefer Daenerys/Khal Drogo's wedding night in the show. Why you ask, I already wrote a whole essay about it. Let me know if I should post it.

I'm not into young girl/grown man relationship so I'm glad that other than two kisses, Littlefinger's grooming of Sansa was cut out from the show. 

I like that the show replaced Dontos with Shae to be the friend that Sansa had in Kingslanding. Although both characters had their faults. Dontos was lusting after Sansa even while trying to help her. While Shae was jealous of Sansa even though she genuinely cared.

Chaos is a ladder. One of my favorite. I would like for Littlefinger to give a speech like that in the books... oh wait, all of his speeches to Sansa while in the Vale fall under the same line.

I really loved Lady Stark's Motherless Child speech. The show gave her a conscious. 

Finally, the fact that Sansa and Margaery's friendship was more genuine in the show. I really enjoyed that. 

As for the under-age sex, in our 21 century mentality, I have a problem with it, the other way round.  Not saying that I advocate for it, very far from it.  Incidentally my background is Law and I had touched on those issues and way worse... Yet, to me, a medieval fantasy involves imagining ourselves in that setting, with the ethical parameters we would have grown with (not our newer ones).

The fictional reality Martin puts in front of us is frankly brutal.  To women, to men, to all!  It is not our western middle class environment where most of us come from... marriage at 14 was the norm in European middle ages, both for nobility and commoners (not sex abuse in their book) 12 may be pushing it ... just...  Then again, they had to generate lots of babies and quickly for so many died in infancy... it is just simply not comparable morally IMHO...

A lot of us, say, disagree with capital punishment, say... yet many of us cheered when Ned had to do his duty and do it with his own sword...

Fair enough, anachronism is a bee in my bonet alright, I just keep thinking that one cannot enjoy these books thinking with a "today's" mind.

Still, I totally understand you are expressing your tastes and preferences and there is certainly nothing wrong with that :)

 

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7 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

The fictional reality Martin puts in front of us is frankly brutal.  To women, to men, to all!  It is not our western middle class environment where most of us come from... marriage at 14 was the norm in European middle ages, both for nobility and commoners (not sex abuse in their book) 12 may be pushing it ... just...  Then again, they had to generate lots of babies and quickly for so many died in infancy... it is just simply not comparable morally IMHO...

The story of an historical princess abducted by an English king when she was 12 might interest you- the story of Isabella of Angoulême

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Angoulême

My own modern mindset is shocked by the brutal treatment of animals in the saga- even our gentle Sansa uses starving dogs to murder her husband (to keep her hands clean?).

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Well, that's an eye-opener. 

I had no idea this idea was being expounded. 

Where do I go to learn more?

I'm far from a computer expert, but I think if you were to Google something like "is jeyne westerling pregnant" or something like that you will probably find threads here at Westeros.org (and/or elsewhere) that discuss it in great detail.

It's been quite a few months since I looked into it, but my recollection is that several years back it was the source of a lot of discussion here.

If Westeros.org has a "topic search engine," I don't know the details of that, but maybe they do.

I will say this, though, my personal opinion is that Jeyne Westerling is in fact pregnant with Robb Stark's child.  Either that, or GRRM just purposely manufactured some red herrings to confuse people, but I don't think so.  Jaime's observation about her hips seems to be a really compelling clue.  As a man, I can offer the opinion that that is NOT the kind of thing that would commonly cross a man's mind, yet Jaime consciously notices it and reflects upon it.

And, I guess I'm just repeating myself, but as I said, GRRM seems to really like switching one character out for another.

By the way, did you know that Jeyne Westerling's mother is descended from Maggy the Frog?  Yeah, it's true, and as a result a lot of people also believe she gave Robb Stark a love potion to make him fall in love with Jeyne in the first place.  Wheels within wheels within wheels...

If you do look into it more, though, please let me know what you find, both to refresh my memory and to let me know what your opinion is about whether she is pregnant or not, and whether she is the girl that Jaime Lannister met or not (don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings if you disagree with me)

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2 hours ago, Cron said:

I'm far from a computer expert, but I think if you were to Google something like "is jeyne westerling pregnant" or something like that you will probably find threads here at Westeros.org (and/or elsewhere) that discuss it in great detail.

It's been quite a few months since I looked into it, but my recollection is that several years back it was the source of a lot of discussion here.

If Westeros.org has a "topic search engine," I don't know the details of that, but maybe they do.

I will say this, though, my personal opinion is that Jeyne Westerling is in fact pregnant with Robb Stark's child.  Either that, or GRRM just purposely manufactured some red herrings to confuse people, but I don't think so.  Jaime's observation about her hips seems to be a really compelling clue.  As a man, I can offer the opinion that that is NOT the kind of thing that would commonly cross a man's mind, yet Jaime consciously notices it and reflects upon it.

And, I guess I'm just repeating myself, but as I said, GRRM seems to really like switching one character out for another.

By the way, did you know that Jeyne Westerling's mother is descended from Maggy the Frog?  Yeah, it's true, and as a result a lot of people also believe she gave Robb Stark a love potion to make him fall in love with Jeyne in the first place.  Wheels within wheels within wheels...

If you do look into it more, though, please let me know what you find, both to refresh my memory and to let me know what your opinion is about whether she is pregnant or not, and whether she is the girl that Jaime Lannister met or not (don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings if you disagree with me)

Hmm.

Are you asking me to do your research for you?

I asked what you had read that convinced  you of this idea.

Be that as it may, I'm sure GRRM will surprise us all with JW's activities in the upcoming books!

 

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3 hours ago, Cron said:

I will say this, though, my personal opinion is that Jeyne Westerling is in fact pregnant with Robb Stark's child.  Either that, or GRRM just purposely manufactured some red herrings to confuse people, but I don't think so.  Jaime's observation about her hips seems to be a really compelling clue.  As a man, I can offer the opinion that that is NOT the kind of thing that would commonly cross a man's mind, yet Jaime consciously notices it and reflects upon it.

I'm actually pretty skeptical about this theory.  The hips comment, I think, is either an error or a difference of opinion.  And speaking as a guy, hips can be noticed.  One big problem is that Jeyne Westerling is hardly an unknown figure.  There are plenty of former Stark allies around, as well as a lot of Freys, all of whom might recognize her quite easily (or not her, as the case might be).  Plus, since she was a marriageable maiden from the Westerlands, plenty of lords from there might recognize her as well.  And I doubt Sybell would risk Tywin's wrath by doing a substitution, and it would have had to be done before the siege.  (No way is Jeyne swimming out with the Blackfish.)  It's a cool idea, but I'm not buying it.  I do expect her to cause trouble, in some way, shape, or fashion.

22 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

As for the under-age sex, in our 21 century mentality, I have a problem with it, the other way round.  Not saying that I advocate for it, very far from it.  Incidentally my background is Law and I had touched on those issues and way worse... Yet, to me, a medieval fantasy involves imagining ourselves in that setting, with the ethical parameters we would have grown with (not our newer ones).

The fictional reality Martin puts in front of us is frankly brutal.  To women, to men, to all!  It is not our western middle class environment where most of us come from... marriage at 14 was the norm in European middle ages, both for nobility and commoners (not sex abuse in their book) 12 may be pushing it ... just...  Then again, they had to generate lots of babies and quickly for so many died in infancy... it is just simply not comparable morally IMHO...

It's nice to see someone else who isn't too fond of the aging-up of the characters, although I do think that raising everyone's age by a year does improve things.  More than that is a problem, though.  One big problem is that many of the decisions of Robb, Jon, and Dany are easier to understand if you realize that they are teenagers, and not adults.

As for the underage sex, Daenerys and Jeyne Poole are the only characters that have definitely had sex prior to turning 16, a generally acceptable age even today.  (Robb and Jon were both 16 or close to it when they bedded Jeyne and Ygritte.)

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On 5/29/2017 at 7:40 PM, Cron said:

Interesting.

Personally, I preferred Jeyne Westerling in the books, and how she survived. I prefer that Robb's line continue for future story-telling.

I agree with all the rest, though.  Bronn is MUCH better in the show (he's just kind of "there" in the books for me), and the same for Oberyn, Osha and Olenna.

Thanks for contributing!

2

hehh.......no problem :cheers:

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23 hours ago, Nevets said:

I'm actually pretty skeptical about this theory.  The hips comment, I think, is either an error or a difference of opinion.  And speaking as a guy, hips can be noticed.  One big problem is that Jeyne Westerling is hardly an unknown figure.  There are plenty of former Stark allies around, as well as a lot of Freys, all of whom might recognize her quite easily (or not her, as the case might be).  Plus, since she was a marriageable maiden from the Westerlands, plenty of lords from there might recognize her as well.  And I doubt Sybell would risk Tywin's wrath by doing a substitution, and it would have had to be done before the siege.  (No way is Jeyne swimming out with the Blackfish.)  It's a cool idea, but I'm not buying it.  I do expect her to cause trouble, in some way, shape, or fashion.

...

As for the underage sex, Daenerys and Jeyne Poole are the only characters that have definitely had sex prior to turning 16, a generally acceptable age even today.  (Robb and Jon were both 16 or close to it when they bedded Jeyne and Ygritte.)

I read on a few places that the hips discrepancy was an error by Martin, and was changed in newer versions of AFFC and that was really Jeyne Westerling who Jaime saw.

Technically Tyrion and Oberyn definitely had sex when they were around 13, before the events of the novels.

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15 minutes ago, CaptainTheo said:

I read on a few places that the hips discrepancy was an error by Martin, and was changed in newer versions of AFFC and that was really Jeyne Westerling who Jaime saw.

Technically Tyrion and Oberyn definitely had sex when they were around 13, before the events of the novels.

I have seen the change on the hips mentioned, although my copy of AFFC which I bought earlier this year still has "narrow hips".  I still think it is either a mistake or irrelevant.

On sex, I was referring to the events in the books themselves, as several characters had sex at an earlier age before the novels take place.

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On 6/4/2017 at 5:20 PM, Prof. Cecily said:

Hmm.

Are you asking me to do your research for you?

I asked what you had read that convinced  you of this idea.

Be that as it may, I'm sure GRRM will surprise us all with JW's activities in the upcoming books!

 

HARRR!!!

No, I'm not asking you to do research for me.

I once DID look into it pretty extensively, but cannot recall all the details, and was just saying if you do decide to look into it more, I'd be happy to discuss it more.

But if you're not interested in pursuing the matter further, that's fine, and I guess we'll leave it there.

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On 6/4/2017 at 6:26 PM, Nevets said:

I'm actually pretty skeptical about this theory.  The hips comment, I think, is either an error or a difference of opinion.  And speaking as a guy, hips can be noticed.  One big problem is that Jeyne Westerling is hardly an unknown figure.  There are plenty of former Stark allies around, as well as a lot of Freys, all of whom might recognize her quite easily (or not her, as the case might be).  Plus, since she was a marriageable maiden from the Westerlands, plenty of lords from there might recognize her as well.  And I doubt Sybell would risk Tywin's wrath by doing a substitution, and it would have had to be done before the siege.  (No way is Jeyne swimming out with the Blackfish.)  It's a cool idea, but I'm not buying it.  I do expect her to cause trouble, in some way, shape, or fashion.

It's nice to see someone else who isn't too fond of the aging-up of the characters, although I do think that raising everyone's age by a year does improve things.  More than that is a problem, though.  One big problem is that many of the decisions of Robb, Jon, and Dany are easier to understand if you realize that they are teenagers, and not adults.

As for the underage sex, Daenerys and Jeyne Poole are the only characters that have definitely had sex prior to turning 16, a generally acceptable age even today.  (Robb and Jon were both 16 or close to it when they bedded Jeyne and Ygritte.)

Interesting stuff about whether Jaime met the real Jeyne Westerling or not, and you could be right.

But bear in mind that such a switching out would not require an extensive, or even sustained, conspiracy.   All it would require would be a substitute being provided for the very limited scene where Jaime and "Jeyne Westerling" were in a room together.  That's it. Who else was in that room?  i don't recall, but those are the only people that would be required to be "in on it," I think. The rest of the time, the REAL (pregnant) Jeyne Westerling could be living in private seclusion.

Also, regarding Tywin, you may not think Jeyne's mother would risk his wrath, but we are talking about her DAUGHTER here (Jeyne Westerling).  In my opinion, a parent may do and risk many things for a child that they would not do or risk for anyone else, including themselves.  (Also, maybe I'm wrong about this chronology, but wasn't Tywin already DEAD by this point in time??  Pretty sure he was.  I think Tywin died at the end of ASOS, and Jaime met "Jeyne Westerling" in AFFC, if I recall correctly.)

But we'll see, though. Who knows, maybe it will never be fully resolved.  There are so many plots and sub-plots in ASOIAF that I have believed for a long time that they will NOT all be fully resolved in the end, one way or the other.

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On 6/5/2017 at 5:48 PM, Valedina said:

hehh.......no problem :cheers:

Thanks again.

By the way, did you make your location "Winerfell" on purpose, or is that a typo?

Just wondering if where you are is where the wine falls, or goes down, in great quantities.

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11 hours ago, Cron said:

HARRR!!!

No, I'm not asking you to do research for me.

Just as well. ;)

Sorry to be so prickly- I've been cozened into researching topics on boards (not ASOIAF related) by the phrase "Google this and come back and we'll discuss this at further length" only to finding my 'stuff' appear in blogs, essays, even unto theses. Without any recognition for services rendered. I didn't like that at all.

 

I once DID look into it pretty extensively, but cannot recall all the details, and was just saying if you do decide to look into it more, I'd be happy to discuss it more.

At the end of the day, we have the texts, semi-canonical sources and commentaries. I have https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ on speed dial, as it were. I don't have the app. But I do have an insatiable thirst to learn more about JW and her role in Robb's downfall.

I know what you mean about the memory- even with numerous folders of favourites, I lose track of fascinating things I've read and seen. If you could give me a heads up to where you found things on the subject that caught your interest, it would make my own search better oriented to a discussion with you

But if you're not interested in pursuing the matter further, that's fine, and I guess we'll leave it there.

HARR!!!- If I haven't read six impossible things before breakfast, I count it an ill-omened day.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Cron said:

Thanks again.

By the way, did you make your location "Winerfell" on purpose, or is that a typo?

Just wondering if where you are is where the wine falls, or goes down, in great quantities.

1

Ηahah....not at all, I live in Greece :pimp:

But I always liked more cold climates, rains etc ( you always want what you don't have):dunno:

So yeah Winterfell for me.:rofl:

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1 hour ago, Valedina said:

Ηahah....not at all, I live in Greece :pimp:

But I always liked more cold climates, rains etc ( you always want what you don't have):dunno:

So yeah Winterfell for me.:rofl:

Better change your "location," then, cuz it says "Winerfell."

Hope you don't have anything against wine, though.  I thought the Greeks loved wine.

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Cersei's characterization is much better on the show, and I like the fact that her break with Jaime is taking longer. It should take longer, as Cersei is not the one-dimensional monster she was in the books. The decision to add dimensiion to Cersei also makes it difficult to assign "good-evil" labels to the twins. 

I'll also add that I thought replacing the "fake Arya" with a real Stark was a good idea. In the books, the fake Arya reduces involvement to an extent. Jeyne is the stereotypical, helpless victim about whom the reader knows very little. Her suffering is used to elicit sympathy for THEON, not for her: She's raped and tortured to turn Theon into a hero, which I find disturbing. Jon wants to save her, thinking she's Arya, which sort of leads to a "so what," for his motivation. Meanwhile, the real Stark sisters are doing little: Sansa goes through her transformation in Storm and spends the rest of the books sitting on her ass at the Vale. Arya is giving a tour of Braavos and showing off in fighting montages. Her novel arc is better than her show arc, which was an abomination, but I can hardly call her novel arc an excellent thing. 

Placing a real Stark at Winterfell ups the stakes for what's happening there. My problem was not that the show sent Sansa North, but that the show was unwilling to hand Sophie Turner a script. Sansa's finally at WF, and she's, supposedly, the "new Sansa," but there's little evidence of that. She does little to help herself or to hurt the Boltons. She doesn't plot or plan. She's Sansa, which means that her rape and torture are horrific, because SHE is being tormented, which is better than what GRRM does with Theon and Jeyne, but I can't say much more in favor. Same, btw, is true for her bits in season 6. She's plotting against Jon...or is she? Wtf does she want? More clarity as to her motives would have been welcome; there's a limit as to how much an actress's silence and troubled looks can convey. 

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On 6/4/2017 at 8:12 AM, Prof. Cecily said:

The story of an historical princess abducted by an English king when she was 12 might interest you- the story of Isabella of Angoulême

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Angoulême

My own modern mindset is shocked by the brutal treatment of animals in the saga- even our gentle Sansa uses starving dogs to murder her husband (to keep her hands clean?).

 

 

 

Thank you; fascinating story.  As for animals, yes, mine too but okay Sansa did not starve those dogs, Ramsay did!  Whether she fed them or not afterwards (as far as I can remember) is unclear.  Ramsay treatted men and animals the same... as the animal he was himself!

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On 6/5/2017 at 10:52 PM, CaptainTheo said:

I read on a few places that the hips discrepancy was an error by Martin, and was changed in newer versions of AFFC and that was really Jeyne Westerling who Jaime saw.

Technically Tyrion and Oberyn definitely had sex when they were around 13, before the events of the novels.

Sure, as did Tysha - seems accepted in George's world, apart from the fact that Tyrion is not comfortable with it (afer having done it himself!).  I personally feel George put it there to make us readers uncomfortable but in that sort of era certainly 14 was the norm.  In the UK, where I live, it is 16.  

It is true to say that different people develop at different rates but, by and large, the woman matures physically sooner than a man her age.  Okay, stating the obvious lol yet the "protection" seems to be all for the woman.  We are normally not alarmed, within limits, at the age of the boy but at the age of the girl... Having, once upon a time, been a female teenager, I can assure you the female is more likely to initiate it and be more cunning about it lol (okay, speaking for myself lol).  Although I really campaign for female equality and, goes without saying their safety!!! I do feel that the men get the grief more often than not when discussing sex in any way.

This being said, hey, I am not in any way trying to trivialise child molestation and worse!  I have worked in the field in fact, for my local authority's legal department in the Child Protection team as a lawyer and a lot of what I saw there was truly horrific!  One case even made the national news and there were times when I went home in tears...

 

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Where do people get those weird ideas that:

1) Cersei in the books is undeveloped and one-dimensional character?

2) Cersei in the show is complex and layered character?

Since you're already on this site, you might as well visit the books section sometimes and read at least some of the threads there about Cersei in the novels. You'll see that great many other readers managed to catch things you obviously missed on your reading.

As for Cersei in the show, what layers and complexity do you actually see in her? Could it be that maybe you're confusing bad writing with complexity? Just for example, it's not even clear that she actually loved her children. As everyone around her and she herself kept repeating in the first few seasons, that was her main characteristic back then. But now, she doesn't seem to be grieving for Myrcella and Tommen. So which is it? Did she love them, or not? Is she remembering them at all? LOL!

It's not complexity, people. It's bad writing and inconsistent characterization.

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On 6/4/2017 at 3:12 AM, Prof. Cecily said:

The story of an historical princess abducted by an English king when she was 12 might interest you- the story of Isabella of Angoulême

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Angoulême

My own modern mindset is shocked by the brutal treatment of animals in the saga- even our gentle Sansa uses starving dogs to murder her husband (to keep her hands clean?).

 

 

 

I think that was more about using his own dogs against him. He was so proud of them and even threatened jon and others with them and it felt like justice. She didn't starve them though.

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