Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

[SecretWeapon]

Margaery is better in the show. That's a fact. 

[Cron]

9 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

 

I remembered it because I'm rereading AFFC and our Sansa notices Mord's golden teeth.

A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

 

We're on the same page!

 

Good stuff. Again, thanks for the reminder.

There are lots of reasons I like to hang out on these boards, and little refreshers like that on fine details by people currently re-reading or re-watching are definitely part of that.

P.S. Hey, you just got my 1,000th post!! Congratulations!!

[StepStark]

3 hours ago, Sanrast said:

It would have taken more time to shoot it probably.

Sorry, but this looks like double standards on your part. One standard is for GRRM, because he didn't get any understanding from you. While you were under the impression that the scene in the show is richer than the scene in the books, you were just disappointed, without offering any possible reason for the "omission" in the book. For example, it could've been that the publisher cut that part out because the volume of the book was bigger than what the publisher agreed with GRRM. Cuts like that happen in the book publishing business, as often as in the tv show business. But no, you didn't go there, you were simply disappointed in the book.

But now, when you know for a fact that your impression was wrong and that the opposite is actually the truth and that the book scene is richer than the show scene, you apply some other standard. Now you're actually trying to come up with some excuse for D&D. And sorry to say, but your excuse is a very weak one, because the "extra time" it would take to shoot the scene as in the book is so little it's totally insignificant for a production on a GOT scale. It's literally a few seconds more of filmed material, and if the filming of those few seconds would cause any trouble with the schedule then the entire GOT project is even worse off than I imagined.

So I'm asking you seriously, in hope that you actually might answer: why do you go to those lengths in defending D&D? What motivates you to hold one set of standards for them and another for everyone else (even the man who created the entire story in the first place)? What is the reason for you to be disappointed in the books when some scene seems not as rich as in the show, but on the other hand to find excuses for D&D when it turns out that actually their scene was not as rich as the one in the book? Is it really so hard to accept the obvious reality, that D&D simply failed to remember the scene from the book in its entirety?

[StepStark]

3 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

Margaery is better in the show. That's a fact. 

It isn't a fact and she isn't better. I can't think of any meaning of the word "better" that could apply to your statement. Is she better written? No, she isn't, in fact her scenes in the show are tragically confusing and her "character" is very inconsistent. Is she deeper or more layered? No, she isn't, because in the show her motivations and reasoning are always pretty obvious and always very banal, often verging on vulgarity. Is she more relevant for the overall story? Probably not, though it's not a fact because she's still alive in the book, but it's very unlikely that her arc in the books will be as meaningless as it appears to be in the show. So, the only thing is that she has more scenes in the show, but that doesn't mean the same as "better", especially with D&D writing those extra scenes.

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, Cron said:

Good stuff. Again, thanks for the reminder.

There are lots of reasons I like to hang out on these boards, and little refreshers like that on fine details by people currently re-reading or re-watching are definitely part of that.

P.S. Hey, you just got my 1,000th post!! Congratulations!!

I lift my frosted glass of pale Albariño wine in tribute to your 1,000th post.

And once again in anticipation of your 2,000th!

 

4 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

Margaery is better in the show. That's a fact. 

I'm with you. Natalie Dormer was splendid.

From that stroll through Renly's camp with lord Baelish to her efforts to make Joffry a king,  to her needling of Cersei, to her widened eyes as she understands what's about to happen in the Great Sept.

A class act.

Now it remains to see just how GRRM has conceived the personage- I'm pretty sure we won't be disappointed.

And what fun it is to have both versions!

[SecretWeapon]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

It isn't a fact and she isn't better. I can't think of any meaning of the word "better" that could apply to your statement. Is she better written? No, she isn't, in fact her scenes in the show are tragically confusing and her "character" is very inconsistent. Is she deeper or more layered? No, she isn't, because in the show her motivations and reasoning are always pretty obvious and always very banal, often verging on vulgarity. Is she more relevant for the overall story? Probably not, though it's not a fact because she's still alive in the book, but it's very unlikely that her arc in the books will be as meaningless as it appears to be in the show. So, the only thing is that she has more scenes in the show, but that doesn't mean the same as "better", especially with D&D writing those extra scenes.

I'm not asking you if it's a fact, i'm stating it. For begginers, what is even book Margaery? The only time we see for sure her true personality boils down to like 5 lines when Cersei visits her.

"She's inconsistent, banal and vulgar" Jesuschrist, the part of your post that doesn't consist of talking-a-lot-without-saying-much reeks of the typical book classism.

Personally I find show Margaery delightful. Being able to look firsthand to the Little Rose's thorns and confirming she isn't a pawn but the best (and unluckiest) player in the Game is awesome. Just the fact that showMarg is smart enough to NOT drop Sansa like a hot potato after the marriage scheme puts her above bookMarg for me (seriously, that's stupid and obvious, don't do it irl if you want to use someone)

[StepStark]

35 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

I'm not asking you if it's a fact, i'm stating it.

Are you angry that someone disagreed with you?

35 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

For begginers, what is even book Margaery? The only time we see for sure her true personality boils down to like 5 lines when Cersei visits her.

That is true, but it can be on purpose. I hope you realize that. Still, being a very minor character is much better than being a poorly written character.

35 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

"She's inconsistent, banal and vulgar" Jesuschrist, the part of your post that doesn't consist of talking-a-lot-without-saying-much reeks of the typical book classism.

You seem angry again. I can't even say what you meant by book classism. I don't think "classism" is even a word.

35 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

Personally I find show Margaery delightful. Being able to look firsthand to the Little Rose's thorns and confirming she isn't a pawn but the best (and unluckiest) player in the Game is awesome.

For some reason some posters seem to think that being "player in the Game" is the same as being a well written character. It looks like that's the case with you too. I find that criteria very misguided but even if we follow it, I still don't see what was Margaery's big achievement in the Game (whatever "the Game" is). Exchanging silly little insults with Cersei - is that "playing the Game"? She manipulates Tommen through sex, that's the only thing. But considering that Tommen is just another poorly written character and that Natalie Dormer had to intervene and stop D&D from writing nasty scenes, it's hardly something that proves Margaery was well written in the show.

35 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

Just the fact that showMarg is smart enough to NOT drop Sansa like a hot potato after the marriage scheme puts her above bookMarg for me (seriously, that's stupid and obvious, don't do it irl if you want to use someone)

Sorry but what are you talking about?! Sansa dropped like a hot potato? Where did you get that from?! Don't you remember how different Sansa's wedding to Tyrion went in the books? Also don't you remember how much Dontos informed and influenced Sansa in the books? How is it possible to compare the two situations in the way you just did? I can't even, I really can't... But really, what was so smart about Margaery and Sansa in the show? She tells Sansa that Tyrion is handsome - is that what you have in mind? I can't think of anything else! Is that your big evidence of showMarg's intelligence? LOL!!!

[divica]

1 minute ago, StepStark said:

Are you angry that someone disagreed with you?

That is true, but it can be on purpose. I hope you realize that. Still, being a very minor character is much better than being a poorly written character.

You seem angry again. I can't even say what you meant by book classism. I don't think "classism" is even a word.

For some reason some posters seem to think that being "player in the Game" is the same as being a well written character. It looks like that's the case with you too. I find that criteria very misguided but even if we follow it, I still don't see what was Margaery's big achievement in the Game (whatever "the Game" is). Exchanging silly little insults with Cersei - is that "playing the Game"? She manipulates Tommen through sex, that's the only thing. But considering that Tommen is just another poorly written character and that Natalie Dormer had to intervene and stop D&D from writing nasty scenes, it's hardly something that proves Margaery was well written in the show.

Sorry but what are you talking about?! Sansa dropped like a hot potato? Where did you get that from?! Don't you remember how different Sansa's wedding to Tyrion went in the books? Also don't you remember how much Dontos informed and influenced Sansa in the books? How is it possible to compare the two situations in the way you just did? I can't even, I really can't... But really, what was so smart about Margaery and Sansa in the show? She tells Sansa that Tyrion is handsome - is that what you have in mind? I can't think of anything else! Is that your big evidence of showMarg's intelligence? LOL!!!

I am sorry but show margaery is well written and so far much better than the book marg because we actually understand the character and her motivations.

In the show everything she has done is an act. Since helping people in kingslanding, to having sex with tommen or manipulating joffrei. In the book you simply don t know the character... If you want to criticize the character it must be the one in the book where we know nothing about her personality... She might even have an harém in kingslanding and we don t suspect it.

 

[StepStark]

1 minute ago, divica said:

I am sorry but show margaery is well written and so far much better than the book marg because we actually understand the character and her motivations.

In the show everything she has done is an act. Since helping people in kingslanding, to having sex with tommen or manipulating joffrei. In the book you simply don t know the character... If you want to criticize the character it must be the one in the book where we know nothing about her personality... She might even have an harém in kingslanding and we don t suspect it.

"We know nothing about her personality" is still better than listening ridiculous lines like "Cersei understands the consequences of not being here but she's still not here so we have to get out of here". And also this line: "My king is my husband and my husband is my king". Yeah, very sophisticated writing. Too bad they didn't let her repeat that Renly is both her husband and her king few more times. Oh and speaking of Renly, can please someone explain why Margaery was so cold and calm after his death, but was totally shocked and disturbed after Joff's death? And also how come that this "intelligent player" was that surprised when she heard that her granny was involved in Joff's murder - that didn't cross her mind at all, but she's like... smart?! And also, what is smart about picking childish fights with Cersei? Is ridiculing Cersei for her drinking problem the smartest thing to do? Oh and what about sabotaging your family's plan to save you by delivering the king (her husband by the way) to the very person that arrested you? Just disregard the underlying stupidity of the entire situation in which two most powerful families in the realm plot to confront High Septon while having NO IDEA THAT HE TOOK THE KING UNDER HIS WING, disregard that and just please tell me what was the goal of Margaery's "ingenious plan" that delivered Tommen to High Septon? In what reality can something like that result in anything good for Margaery? Not even in D&D's twisted fan fiction could Margaery's plan result in anything other than High Septon playing her like a violin.

But honestly, I'm thankful to GRRM for not writing characters as "smart" and "interesting" as Margaery in the show.

[divica]

5 minutes ago, StepStark said:

"We know nothing about her personality" is still better than listening ridiculous lines like "Cersei understands the consequences of not being here but she's still not here so we have to get out of here". And also this line: "My king is my husband and my husband is my king". Yeah, very sophisticated writing. Too bad they didn't let her repeat that Renly is both her husband and her king few more times. Oh and speaking of Renly, can please someone explain why Margaery was so cold and calm after his death, but was totally shocked and disturbed after Joff's death? And also how come that this "intelligent player" was that surprised when she heard that her granny was involved in Joff's murder - that didn't cross her mind at all, but she's like... smart?! And also, what is smart about picking childish fights with Cersei? Is ridiculing Cersei for her drinking problem the smartest thing to do? Oh and what about sabotaging your family's plan to save you by delivering the king (her husband by the way) to the very person that arrested you? Just disregard the underlying stupidity of the entire situation in which two most powerful families in the realm plot to confront High Septon while having NO IDEA THAT HE TOOK THE KING UNDER HIS WING, disregard that and just please tell me what was the goal of Margaery's "ingenious plan" that delivered Tommen to High Septon? In what reality can something like that result in anything good for Margaery? Not even in D&D's twisted fan fiction could Margaery's plan result in anything other than High Septon playing her like a violin.

But honestly, I'm thankful to GRRM for not writing characters as "smart" and "interesting" as Margaery in the show.

You are over reacting. And obviously if you take things out of context and use sarcasm to make your point of view the valid one it is impossible to argument. Without watching most of the scenes you are talking about I can t coment because you are making such a drama it is impossible to see what has really happened and what is you making you own drama...

In regards to the high sparrow and tommen, he was under the high sparrow wing for a lot of time... You just have to see he allowed his mother and wife to be imprisioned and the walk of shame... In order to be more acurate I would have to rewatch a lot of got, but I think marg wanted to make peace with the faith and have her and loras realeased instead of having a war...

[StepStark]

1 minute ago, divica said:

You are over reacting. And obviously if you take things out of context and use sarcasm to make your point of view the valid one it is impossible to argument. Without watching most of the scenes you are talking about I can t coment because you are making such a drama it is impossible to see what has really happened and what is you making you own drama...

In regards to the high sparrow and tommen, he was under the high sparrow wing for a lot of time... You just have to see he allowed his mother and wife to be imprisioned and the walk of shame... In order to be more acurate I would have to rewatch a lot of got, but I think marg wanted to make peace with the faith and have her and loras realeased instead of having a war...

Why am I overreacting? I'm just making points why I think that Margaery is written poorly in the show. How else could I prove my point?

And yes, I'm not giving the entire context because I'm not writing these posts for living. I'm not going to do your homework for you, just like I don't expect anyone to do it for me. If you don't remember the show too well, but you still joined this discussion and claimed that Margaery is well written and "so far much better than the book Marg", I really don't see how is that my responsibility or my problem. Feel free to prove that anything I wrote is out of context if you can.

And about Tommen and High Sparrow, no he wasn't under his wing before Margaery delivered him, because High Sparrow himself says so, while standing in his holly place. So I don't think he's lying. And if he's telling the truth, then yes, it was Margaery who delivered Tommen to him. Before that, Tommen was too weak to confront High Sparrow, as he himself even admits in a scene with Cersei. That doesn't mean that High Sparrow had him under his wing.

And okay, Margaery wanted to make peace and have her and Loras released. Fair assumption. But how is delivering Tommen to High Sparrow going to help that? If anything, that puts her and Loras in even bigger danger, because the lunatic who arrested them now controls the king too.

[The Knight of Flours]

Cup of sweetmilk anyone?

[SecretWeapon]

On 3/7/2017 at 8:16 PM, StepStark said:

Are you angry that someone disagreed with you?

That is true, but it can be on purpose. I hope you realize that. Still, being a very minor character is much better than being a poorly written character.

You seem angry again. I can't even say what you meant by book classism. I don't think "classism" is even a word.

For some reason some posters seem to think that being "player in the Game" is the same as being a well written character. It looks like that's the case with you too. I find that criteria very misguided but even if we follow it, I still don't see what was Margaery's big achievement in the Game (whatever "the Game" is). Exchanging silly little insults with Cersei - is that "playing the Game"? She manipulates Tommen through sex, that's the only thing. But considering that Tommen is just another poorly written character and that Natalie Dormer had to intervene and stop D&D from writing nasty scenes, it's hardly something that proves Margaery was well written in the show.

Sorry but what are you talking about?! Sansa dropped like a hot potato? Where did you get that from?! Don't you remember how different Sansa's wedding to Tyrion went in the books? Also don't you remember how much Dontos informed and influenced Sansa in the books? How is it possible to compare the two situations in the way you just did? I can't even, I really can't... But really, what was so smart about Margaery and Sansa in the show? She tells Sansa that Tyrion is handsome - is that what you have in mind? I can't think of anything else! Is that your big evidence of showMarg's intelligence? LOL!!!

"LOL U MAD"... is that really your argument?

You haven't even given any arguments to explain WHY you think she's bad written. Specially when she kept basically everything from book Margaery (and in the same context) until Tommen came (as showTommen is old enough) and ADDED the motivations behind her facade. On that same note, being "a player" is not what makes her a better character, explaining what she truly is behind her "beautiful and charitable queen" act in a manner that feels coherent to the character is what makes her a better character to bookMarg. Hell, GRRM himself said showMarge was " almost what my Margaery will become in ten years"

Regarding the last point, showMarge knew how to keep up the PR act. bookMarge dropped it the second it wasn't useful. The former is useful, the latter exposes you as snake.

23 hours ago, StepStark said:

"We know nothing about her personality" is still better than listening ridiculous lines like "Cersei understands the consequences of not being here but she's still not here so we have to get out of here". And also this line: "My king is my husband and my husband is my king".

"I dislike so it sucks guys"

23 hours ago, StepStark said:

Oh and speaking of Renly, can please someone explain why Margaery was so cold and calm after his death, but was totally shocked and disturbed after Joff's death?

She isn't. She's annoyed because she was on the eve of becoming queen

23 hours ago, StepStark said:

And also how come that this "intelligent player" was that surprised when she heard that her granny was involved in Joff's murder - that didn't cross her mind at all, but she's like... smart?! And also, what is smart about picking childish fights with Cersei? Is ridiculing Cersei for her drinking problem the smartest thing to do? Oh and what about sabotaging your family's plan to save you by delivering the king (her husband by the way) to the very person that arrested you?

1-We have people here still arguing the poison was in the pie and that it was meant for Tyrion or Tywin. She simply believed Tyrion poisoned him like most everyone

2-She was already the queen, Cersei was on her way out. Cersei did worse than just throwing shade too

3-She didn't know that. Her goal was to free herself and Loras. She also realized she fucked up when she saw the Tyrell army but she had not choice but to keep playing along.

23 hours ago, StepStark said:

And okay, Margaery wanted to make peace and have her and Loras released. Fair assumption. But how is delivering Tommen to High Sparrow going to help that? If anything, that puts her and Loras in even bigger danger, because the lunatic who arrested them now controls the king too.

"Assumption" do you even watch the series? I'm asking seriously. She fully "converts" after she sees Loras is a wreck. In S6 finale she basically spells out the whole faith thing was a plan to free herself and her brother.

Once Loras was free she was probably going to manipulate Tommen into disarming the Faith Militant again. We know she already was doing it to some degree by refusing to have sex with him.

[StepStark]

7 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

"Assumption" do you even watch the series? I'm asking seriously. She fully "converts" after she sees Loras is a wreck. In S6 finale she basically spells out the whole faith thing was a plan to free herself and her brother.

Once Loras was free she was probably going to manipulate Tommen into disarming the Faith Militant again. We know she already was doing it to some degree by refusing to have sex with him.

It's funny how you ask arguments from me, and yet you never give any real argument why Margaery is "better" in the show. Just to be clear, I don't expect you to, because there are no arguments of that kind, because Margaery in the show is poorly written character in every way imaginable. There are no "motives" behind her facade, other than that she wants to be The Queen. Besides that, I have no idea what motives are we talking about even? Everything she does in the show before she's arrested is about that goal of hers, except maybe her scene with Sansa when she explains to her that Tyrion is handsome - I have no idea what could possibly be her motive for that (it's definitely not Sansa's well-being, since she obviously never cared for her), but I guess it doesn't have anything to do with her becoming The Queen. In every other scene Margaery is "playing the Game" or trying to, which is somewhat tiring on its own, but becomes a lot worse when combined with ridiculous dialogue.

Now about dialogue, no, I can't "prove" that some lines are simply ridiculous. You are going to agree with me, or disagree with me, but there is no formula that can measure how well written or poorly written is the line "My husband is my king and my king is my husband". If you like that kind of lines, then I have to conclude that you didn't watch or read many works with great or even good dialogue. Or maybe you don't pay too much attention to dialogue. But I can't make you agree with me.

But also, there are lines that are so poor that it can be proven, and the other line falls into that category. Just think about it: Cersei knows the consequences of not coming here but she's still not here and so we better get out of here. Where to begin? As one video review said immediately after the episode, people risk consequences for doing or not doing something literally every day, and it still doesn't mean that anybody of us is planning to blow up holly places. How can anybody come to the conclusion that Cersei is going to kill all of them just because she didn't show up? Just imagine the paranoia in real life if someone didn't show up at work and risks getting fired: he must be planning to blow up the entire building, right? LOL!

About Margaery's motives for delivering Tommen to HS, your explanation is all the evidence I need to show how stupid is the plot in the show and how little D&D actually think about motives behind their characters' actions. I'm not talking about her pretending that she suddenly cares about faith. That'd be somewhat logical on her part. But, in reality, only an idiot would buy such performance, which again makes her attempt unrealistic, because for her plan to work HS must be an idiot and she doesn't have any reason to expect that he is. But okay, let's put that aside, because I wasn't even talking about that. I was specifically talking about delivering Tommen to HS. If anyone knows how weak and easy to manipulate Tommen is, it should be Margaery. If anyone knows how cunning and manipulative HS is, it's Margaery. But she delivers Tommen to HS anyway? Does that sound logical to you?

All in all, the show didn't add anything about Margaery from the books, because they are two very different characters. Margaery from the books is still unknown for the most part, but as I said repeatedly, that is way better than being "fleshed" in a totally wrong way, through poorl written lines and illogical plots. GRRM can flesh Margaery as much as he wants in future books, but D&D can never change what they did with their Margaery.

[Feologild]

Aging up the characters.

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

2 minutes ago, Feologild said:

Aging up the characters.

I find it very questionable that he felt the need to both make Daenerys 13 *and* include explicit sex scenes for her. And I could excuse it all for a piece of art if it wasn't for the way he describes the sweat trickling between her breasts, at which point it just passes into This Author is a Creep. 

[divica]

7 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

1-We have people here still arguing the poison was in the pie and that it was meant for Tyrion or Tywin. She simply believed Tyrion poisoned him like most everyone

There is a very cool vídeo around about why littlefinger would want to poison tyrion and how it was done. Besides, it points out that it wouldn t make much sense for olena to use littlefinger in a plot to kill jofrei where the only thing he does is provide the poison (supposely she is the one who poisons the wine) and that littlefinger could known jof is dead because of the bells ringing. In the show we don t have so much coplexity behind the scenes and it has vastly ignored that littlefinger framed tyrion for bran's attempted death and tyrion knew it, that tyrion was the new master of coin and could uncover how littlefinger arranged money for the crown and other things...

 

[Sanrast]

16 hours ago, StepStark said:

Sorry, but this looks like double standards on your part. One standard is for GRRM, because he didn't get any understanding from you. While you were under the impression that the scene in the show is richer than the scene in the books, you were just disappointed, without offering any possible reason for the "omission" in the book. For example, it could've been that the publisher cut that part out because the volume of the book was bigger than what the publisher agreed with GRRM. Cuts like that happen in the book publishing business, as often as in the tv show business. But no, you didn't go there, you were simply disappointed in the book.

But now, when you know for a fact that your impression was wrong and that the opposite is actually the truth and that the book scene is richer than the show scene, you apply some other standard. Now you're actually trying to come up with some excuse for D&D. And sorry to say, but your excuse is a very weak one, because the "extra time" it would take to shoot the scene as in the book is so little it's totally insignificant for a production on a GOT scale. It's literally a few seconds more of filmed material, and if the filming of those few seconds would cause any trouble with the schedule then the entire GOT project is even worse off than I imagined.

So I'm asking you seriously, in hope that you actually might answer: why do you go to those lengths in defending D&D? What motivates you to hold one set of standards for them and another for everyone else (even the man who created the entire story in the first place)? What is the reason for you to be disappointed in the books when some scene seems not as rich as in the show, but on the other hand to find excuses for D&D when it turns out that actually their scene was not as rich as the one in the book? Is it really so hard to accept the obvious reality, that D&D simply failed to remember the scene from the book in its entirety?

I believe you are overthinking this. I didn't know that in this forum there a rival about fans who support Martin and others who support D&D. My  answer has nothing to do with this rival.

[Denam_Pavel]

By it's very nature, the show is written by a greater collection of people then D&D. Natalie Dormer put life and personality in Margeary that some people felt was lacking in the books, despite some episode scripts not holding up under scrutiny, it is fine to think this. 

[CaptainTheo]

Unlike many characters on the show, I liked show Margaery for the most part and it felt like a real shame that she along with her brother and father got abruptly terminated when it felt like her storyline was going somewhere. I also thought she was the most attractive remaining woman in the cast. I'm going to miss her.