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Cron

Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

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14 hours ago, MrsStocksey said:

I've just jumped back in to read the last few pages of this thread and it's a shame that what I assume was supposed to be quite a positive thread about the show has once again become a lot of negativity....

Personally I think the show has done lots better than the books, particularly the last 2 books which were overlong and rather dull in places.  I've just reread them all and accidently started reading a Dance with Dragons, Part 2, first (because I'm an idiot) but actually it made no difference to the story....I just missed a lot of floundering around.

I prefer quite a few of the characters in the show.... (the first ones that come to mind)

Cersei, Jorah, Robb, Talisa, Margaery, Gendry...

I also prefer Hardhome in the shows, Sansa's storyline (although an unpopular choice), Brienne's journey (a lot less wandering around!)

I think the battles have been visually stunning, whilst I realise that isn't something the books can do other than in your own imagination, the show has done a marvellous job showing them to their full potential.

I think it's one of the best shows on telly and I think D&D should be commended for bring it to our screen, especially considering the amount of s**t they get from some corners of the internet, it's not a job I'd want to attempt.  The shows not perfect but then neither are the books.

Good stuff, I enjoyed reading it all!

I strongly believe I'm in a small minorityof people who actually enjoyed Brienne's wandering around.  I think it's b/c, to me, it was classically reminiscent of King Arthur stories, with questing knights wandering around, searching for years and years for the Holy Grail.  I do understand this kind of "wandering storytelling" could be an acquired taste, though. (The Once and Future King, by T.H. White, is a tremendous book, I thought.  Anyone who hasn't read it, but loves ASOIAF might want to give it a try.  Don't worry though, there's a lot more to the story than wandering.)

Regarding GOT being one of the best shows on televistion, I recently started a thread about GOT's very recent record setting Emmy night, you might want to check it out if you haven't seen it yet.  It's in this same "General (GOT)" section.

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1 minute ago, Cron said:

Good stuff, I enjoyed reading it all!

I strongly believe I'm in a small minorityof people who actually enjoyed Brienne's wandering around.  I think it's b/c, to me, it was classically reminiscent of King Arthur stories, with questing knights wandering around, searching for years and years for the Holy Grail.  I do understand this kind of "wandering storytelling" could be an acquired taste, though. (The Once and Future King, by T.H. White, is a tremendous book, I thought.  Anyone who hasn't read it, but loves ASOIAF might want to give it a try.  Don't worry though, there's a lot more to the story than wandering.)

Regarding GOT being one of the best shows on televistion, I recently started a thread about GOT's very recent record setting Emmy night, you might want to check it out if you haven't seen it yet.  It's in this same "General (GOT)" section.

I'm amazed at the number of people who miss what is happening in each chapter.  With the exception of one chapter, the focus is on Brienne's development and how she is responding to the challenges coming at her, either because of her decision to be a "knight" while being a woman, or because of the impossibility of trying to find Sansa (and then Arya). I think the pacing of ASOS spoiled so many people, and the decline in action while setting the board for the final conflicts gets confused for being a "wandering mess" and "filler." 

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17 minutes ago, Cron said:

I strongly believe I'm in a small minorityof people who actually enjoyed Brienne's wandering around.

I'm with you on that. :thumbsup: 

17 minutes ago, Cron said:

The Once and Future King, by T.H. White, is a tremendous book, I thought.

And this. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 

I actually just finished reading it about two weeks ago, and already want to go back for a re-read.

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2 hours ago, Cron said:

I strongly believe I'm in a small minorityof people who actually enjoyed Brienne's wandering around.  

I wasn't really a huge fan of Brienne on the first read, but compared to the show and after reading some analysis on her arc I certainly find her interesting.

I might have made that comparison already, but showBrienne feels like the character in a some generic RPG. Other characters give her an objective, she goes to the place, kills some random enemies on the way and has a few lines of dialogue to resolve her quests. And NPC-Pod tags along to provide comic relief and carry her gear.

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5 hours ago, Cron said:

I strongly believe I'm in a small minorityof people who actually enjoyed Brienne's wandering around.  I think it's b/c, to me, it was classically reminiscent of King Arthur stories, with questing knights wandering around, searching for years and years for the Holy Grail.

I enjoyed it too. And after finishing D&E recently I re-read Brienne's chapters and found them even more interesting and meaningful. 

Actually, I prefer Brienne's wandering to the whole Essos storyline in ADWD, which I would gladly cut by half.

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1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I enjoyed it too. And after finishing D&E recently I re-read Brienne's chapters and found them even more interesting and meaningful. 

Actually, I prefer Brienne's wandering to the whole Essos storyline in ADWD, which I would gladly cut by half.

I agree with and @Cron ! I love her wandering and I hope to see more Brienne/Jaime journeys. I liked Arya's wandering too. And The Hound's too. :P

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7 hours ago, Cron said:

 

I strongly believe I'm in a small minorityof people who actually enjoyed Brienne's wandering around.  I think it's b/c, to me, it was classically reminiscent of King Arthur stories, with questing knights wandering around, searching for years and years for the Holy Grail.  I do understand this kind of "wandering storytelling" could be an acquired taste, though. (The Once and Future King, by T.H. White, is a tremendous book, I thought.  Anyone who hasn't read it, but loves ASOIAF might want to give it a try.  Don't worry though, there's a lot more to the story than wandering.)

 

I also liked her adventures.

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11 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I'm amazed at the number of people who miss what is happening in each chapter.  With the exception of one chapter, the focus is on Brienne's development and how she is responding to the challenges coming at her, either because of her decision to be a "knight" while being a woman, or because of the impossibility of trying to find Sansa (and then Arya). I think the pacing of ASOS spoiled so many people, and the decline in action while setting the board for the final conflicts gets confused for being a "wandering mess" and "filler." 

Hey, don't get me wrong, I loved the "questing knight" stuff.

And yes, ASOS is a climactic book, just as Winds of Winter should be (each is the third book of a "trilogy."  It's not surprising ASOS is more action-packed and eventful than AFFC or ADWD.)

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11 hours ago, Darkstream said:

I'm with you on that. :thumbsup: 

And this. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 

I actually just finished reading it about two weeks ago, and already want to go back for a re-read.

Really?  Just finished Once and Future King, huh?  Nice.

I haven't read it in many, many years, but I should probably re-read too.  I'm a huge fan of Arthurian legends, and when it's done properly it can be right up there with GRRM or Tolkien (Best Arthurian movie ever to me is "Excalibur."  Hope you've seen it, if not you might wanna check it out.  Great, great stuff)

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9 hours ago, Rhollo said:

I wasn't really a huge fan of Brienne on the first read, but compared to the show and after reading some analysis on her arc I certainly find her interesting.

I might have made that comparison already, but showBrienne feels like the character in a some generic RPG. Other characters give her an objective, she goes to the place, kills some random enemies on the way and has a few lines of dialogue to resolve her quests. And NPC-Pod tags along to provide comic relief and carry her gear.

Well, Brienne represents, to me, one of the extreme "good people" on the spectrum of good and evil in ASOIAF/GOT.

She is a classic, chivalrous knight, with the highest code of honor (in theory and practice) in the entire series.  This, I believe, is what attracts Jaime to her in the first place, as he repeatedly recognizes and acknowledges her very high levels of honor and chivalry, recognizing as he does so, I believe, that Brienne is the knight Jaime should be BUT ISN'T (when they first meet).

Brienne personifies the codes of chivalry and honor, but at the same time that makes her one of the less "multi-faceted" characters.

I think that's good...ASOIAF/GOT needs characters all along the spectrum of good and evil, and to me Brienne represents extreme good.

(Indeed, along that spectrum of good and evil I"ve mentioned a few times here, I'm not sure who would be more "good" on that scale than Brienne, other than, possibly, young characters who are really not in a position to do anything bad, like Rickon, Myrcella, Trystane.  What about Bran?  Certainly, to me, he's WAY more good than bad (WAY more, I want to stress), but I'm not sure he's as pure as Brienne, Myrcella or Trystane), 

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6 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I enjoyed it too. And after finishing D&E recently I re-read Brienne's chapters and found them even more interesting and meaningful. 

Actually, I prefer Brienne's wandering to the whole Essos storyline in ADWD, which I would gladly cut by half.

Yeah, I agree a lot of this stuff was more interesting the second time through (although I liked it fine the first time as well)

I have a theory about this:  The first time I read the books, I was anxious for plot developments and finding out "what's gonna happen next to the major storylines," but when I re-read the books I already knew all that, and so I wasn't anxious, just enjoyed the "non-major character" stuff all the more. (Another excellent example was the books' Dornish Arianne/Hotah/Oakheart/Darkstar et cetera stuff.  First time I read it, I was fine with it, but in the back of my mind I was anxious to find out what was going on with the MAJOR characters)

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4 hours ago, Cridefea said:

I agree with and @Cron ! I love her wandering and I hope to see more Brienne/Jaime journeys. I liked Arya's wandering too. And The Hound's too. :P

Agreed.

Arya and the Hound together was some of the absolute best stuff in the books or show to me.

Their reunion should be very interesting.

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4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I also liked her adventures.

Very interesting.

I'm beginning to think maybe I'm not in such a small minority who enjoyed the questing.

Nice.

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Just now, Cron said:

Very interesting.

I'm beginning to think maybe I'm not in such a small minority who enjoyed the questing.

Nice.

Don't forget you're in the show subforum, where during the seasons there's an increased number of people who worship the show and tend to speak out about what they see as "boring" in the books. 

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I do like that show Cersei is more relatable but that doesn't mean she is more complex. In my opinion show Cersei is a simplified, subtle version of Book Cersei and it was Lena's portrayal that makes it special.

I thought the idea of Sansa going to WF in season 5 is smart because it would be more appropriate for her age than the book storyline then they botched it.

I did like Tyrion's shortened journey.  

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

Well, Brienne represents, to me, one of the extreme "good people" on the spectrum of good and evil in ASOIAF/GOT.

She is a classic, chivalrous knight, with the highest code of honor (in theory and practice) in the entire series.  This, I believe, is what attracts Jaime to her in the first place, as he repeatedly recognizes and acknowledges her very high levels of honor and chivalry, recognizing as he does so, I believe, that Brienne is the knight Jaime should be BUT ISN'T (when they first meet).

Brienne personifies the codes of chivalry and honor, but at the same time that makes her one of the less "multi-faceted" characters.

I think that's good...ASOIAF/GOT needs characters all along the spectrum of good and evil, and to me Brienne represents extreme good.

I honestly don't see much, that portrays Brienne as particularly "good" in the show.

Yes, she adheres to her code of honor in the sense that she is very determined to stick to her vows. But she is also very quick to resort to violence and even killing people. She never shows much remorse or grief over it afterwards. She was pretty selfish, when she chose revenge on Stannis over protecting Sansa. And she executed helpless Stannis without any authority to do so.

The show just avoids to paint all this in a negative way. The guys she kills are just nameless thugs, that we as the audience don't care about. She get's to save Sansa despite abandoning her, thanks to the script needing her as the magically appearing just-in-time-saviour and no one (Jon, Mel, Davos ????) ever confronts her about killing him simply for personal revenge, involuntarily aiding the Boltons.

If she would experience these repercussions, show!Brienne could actually be quite interesting.

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42 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

I honestly don't see much, that portrays Brienne as particularly "good" in the show.

Yes, she adheres to her code of honor in the sense that she is very determined to stick to her vows. But she is also very quick to resort to violence and even killing people. She never shows much remorse or grief over it afterwards. She was pretty selfish, when she chose revenge on Stannis over protecting Sansa. And she executed helpless Stannis without any authority to do so.

The show just avoids to paint all this in a negative way. The guys she kills are just nameless thugs, that we as the audience don't care about. She get's to save Sansa despite abandoning her, thanks to the script needing her as the magically appearing just-in-time-saviour and no one (Jon, Mel, Davos ????) ever confronts her about killing him simply for personal revenge, involuntarily aiding the Boltons.

If she would experience these repercussions, show!Brienne could actually be quite interesting.

Helpless Stannis? I think not. He got what he deserved especially after he burned his innocent daughter at the stake just to get out of the snow. Talk about losing all sense of your moral compass. Brienne's execution of him was far more fair and honorable than Stannis deserved. 

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10 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, Brienne represents, to me, one of the extreme "good people" on the spectrum of good and evil in ASOIAF/GOT.

She is a classic, chivalrous knight, with the highest code of honor (in theory and practice) in the entire series.  This, I believe, is what attracts Jaime to her in the first place, as he repeatedly recognizes and acknowledges her very high levels of honor and chivalry, recognizing as he does so, I believe, that Brienne is the knight Jaime should be BUT ISN'T (when they first meet).

Brienne personifies the codes of chivalry and honor, but at the same time that makes her one of the less "multi-faceted" characters.

I think that's good...ASOIAF/GOT needs characters all along the spectrum of good and evil, and to me Brienne represents extreme good.

(Indeed, along that spectrum of good and evil I"ve mentioned a few times here, I'm not sure who would be more "good" on that scale than Brienne, other than, possibly, young characters who are really not in a position to do anything bad, like Rickon, Myrcella, Trystane.  What about Bran?  Certainly, to me, he's WAY more good than bad (WAY more, I want to stress), but I'm not sure he's as pure as Brienne, Myrcella or Trystane), 

I think Sam comes close, as does Davos, although his association with Stannis troubles me.  Among the younger set, Meera and Podrick are the most likely to be pure good and be heroes.

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22 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I'm amazed at the number of people who miss what is happening in each chapter.  With the exception of one chapter, the focus is on Brienne's development and how she is responding to the challenges coming at her, either because of her decision to be a "knight" while being a woman, or because of the impossibility of trying to find Sansa (and then Arya). I think the pacing of ASOS spoiled so many people, and the decline in action while setting the board for the final conflicts gets confused for being a "wandering mess" and "filler." 

I understood what Martin was trying to do with Brienne's chapters, but I don't think he handled it very well. Her chapters are a classic example of Martin sacrificing plot advancement for character development. That is why her chapters are considered to be filler. They barely move the plot at all.

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Brienne has 8 chapters in AFFC

Brienne 1 is a setup chapter.  It set's up the appearance of the Faith in Kings Landing.  Additionally, it sets up what appears to be a key player in Sansa's story early in the Vale in Ser Shadrich.  

Brienne 2 is fairly short.  It sets her on her first step of her false trail after Sansa, as well as brings Pod onto Team Brienne.

Brienne 3 has her arrive at Maidenpool.  She brings Nimble Dick on board team Brienne, continuing the false trail.  Additionally, we get an update on how the War of the 5 Kings is progressing, with the Riverlands being brought to heel for the Lannister regime.  

Brienne 4 wraps up our false trail, with Brienne traveling through the Wispers.  She kills her first 3 men in a single fight. We also get our first real trail tip, although it's disguised as the wrong Sister.  Here, Brienne learns that a Stark sister is travelling with Sandor Clegane.

Brienne 5 Septon Meribald is brought onto team Brienne.  We get an update on how the War of the 5 Kings has progressed, this time from a commoner point of view. Overall, a fairly short chapter.  We also get the wonderful Broken Man speech.

Brienne 6 Brienne arrives at the Quiet Isle.  We get information about the raid at Saltpans, we learn Sandor is still alive.  Brienne also learns that the Stark traveling with the Hound was Arya.

Brienne 7 Brienne arrives at the Crossroads Inn.  Another update on how the commoners are affected by the war.  We get an update on Gendry's status.  Brienne heroically fights off the outlaws in order to save the Orphans, and is captured.

Brienne 8 Brienne is taken to the layer of the Brotherhood without banners.  We find out what happens to Beric, and get the big Lady Stoneheart reveal.  Brienne is forced to choose between Jaime and the innocent Pod and Ser Hyle. 

So we have setup to the Vale and Kings Landing early on.  Then we go on a brief false trail, before getting turned onto the Arya trail.  We then get a fight while she is moving on, before getting captured by the Brotherhood.  While the relation to other stories is fairly minimal, a compact arc does take place.  Add the thematic and character knobs turned up to 11, and I think it is a very successful 8 chapters. Compare that to "what happens" in Jon AGOT (he goes to the Wall and takes his vows) for 9 chapters, or 5 chapters for the Red Wedding and Qarth exclusively in ACOK.  I just don't get the hate for AFFC Brienne. 

 

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