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Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?


Cron

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9 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Sorry, I know you were talking both post-walk and walk and didn't specify which one I was commenting.

I was referring to the walk of shame, of course!

Oh that makes more sense...yes I think the Walk was written very difficult to adapt, and I think HBO knocked it out of the park. Lena managed to convey GRRM's entire monologue with uttering a single word, and that, to me, is powerful acting. 

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3 minutes ago, dsug said:

Oh that makes more sense...yes I think the Walk was written very difficult to adapt, and I think HBO knocked it out of the park. Lena managed to convey GRRM's entire monologue with uttering a single word, and that, to me, is powerful acting. 

IMO both (book chapter and show scene) were amazing. It was really well-done.

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Cersei is great in the show. Far more likable, intriguing, and driven. Book version feels more like just some unsophisticated bimbo always out to trample on Tyrion's fun. Lena Headey deserves most of the credit. She has a knack for breathing life into unpleasant characters.

Also, TV Bronn is just badass, hilarious, and always wonderful whenever he shows up.

 

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2 hours ago, Rains of Rastamere said:

Cersei is great in the show. Far more likable, intriguing, and driven. Book version feels more like just some unsophisticated bimbo always out to trample on Tyrion's fun. Lena Headey deserves most of the credit. She has a knack for breathing life into unpleasant characters.

Also, TV Bronn is just badass, hilarious, and always wonderful whenever he shows up.

 

I completely agree...Cersei is a flatter character in the books, the writers and Lena really fleshed her out in a wonderful way.

Also, WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!! Great to have you :)

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11 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Smallville? wrath? These two words together no!!!! If you want to discuss a particular aspect of it you can send me a PM essay. But better if it's something positive. If you read my profile you'll know I'm a great fan of Smallville.

I don't think she will appear because Arya's story in Braavos has come to an end and she didn't met her...as for Tysha....since the show forgot about her in S4 I don't think she will appear again, although she would probably be the best match for Tyrion.

Tysha/Tyrion:  Well, don't get me wrong, I'm not predicting Lanna and/or Tysha will necessarily appear, but...we don't know Arya didn't meet one or both of them.  Indeed, I think it would be incredibly coincidental that Arya called herself "Lanna" without ever having met Lanna, especially when they are in the same city, and when Arya is wandering the streets and local establishments.

In fact, it's quite easy to connect Arya to both Lanna and Tysha by only "two degrees of separation."  Dareon indisputably knew Tysha (he was one of her husbands/customers), and Arya knew Dareon (as I recall, Arya slit Dareon's throat right outside the Happy Port, where Tysha was working, for his act of deserting the Night's Watch)  

Now that Arya is back in Westeros, it is easy for me to imagine her mentioning The Sailor's Wife and Lanna to someone who will make the connection to Tysha, possibly even Tyrion himself.  Surely, Tyrion would immediately know that The Sailor's Wife is Tysha, and Lanna is his daughter, and go to find them both.

Hmmmm...maybe I AM predicting Tyrion and Tysha will end up together. though.  The evidence that The Sailor's Wife is Tysha and Lanna is Tyrion's daughter seems absolutely overwhelming to me, and I don't see any other match for Tyrion in sight.  (Theories that Tyrion is going to end up with Sansa or Dany seem extremely unlikely to me).   Maybe Tyrion's story will end with someone telling him about The Sailor's Wife, and Tyrion will head off to Braavos to find Tysha and Lanna.  Sounds "bittersweet" to me!

And oh, just for clarity's sake:  You must have replied to me almost instantly, cuz your quote of me doesn't have the very quick edit I did to change "The Wrath" to "The Wrath of the Mods" (for going off topic).   I made the change so you wouldn't think I meant your wrath, but you were too quick for me anyway.

Maybe I wlll send you a PM about Smallville.  I'll have to be careful, though, don't want to get in over my head too quickly (I'm sure you're an expert, while I've probably seen only 20 or 30 episodes; however, I used to be a HUGE fan of comic books, like GRRM himself, and I am still a big fan of comic book movies and some super hero t.v. shows)  I tihnk I better brush up on it first, though.  I own the first two seasons on Blu-Ray, I'll try to re-watch and let you know my progress.

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7 hours ago, Rains of Rastamere said:

Cersei is great in the show. Far more likable, intriguing, and driven. Book version feels more like just some unsophisticated bimbo always out to trample on Tyrion's fun. Lena Headey deserves most of the credit. She has a knack for breathing life into unpleasant characters.

Also, TV Bronn is just badass, hilarious, and always wonderful whenever he shows up.

 

Regarding Lena Headey:  i agree.   She's great, of course, I now could not possibly imagine Cersei any other way than how Lena Headey portrays her

Bronn: Oh yeah.  I'm hoping when a spin-off is made (after the end of the current series run in two years, I hope), Bronn will still be around. (Assuming such a spin-off takes place in continuity after the end of the current series run, which is one out of a number of possibilities)

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2 hours ago, Cron said:

Tysha/Tyrion:  Well, don't get me wrong, I'm not predicting Lanna and/or Tysha will necessarily appear, but...we don't know Arya didn't meet one or both of them.  Indeed, I think it would be incredibly coincidental that Arya called herself "Lanna" without ever having met Lanna, especially when they are in the same city, and when Arya is wandering the streets and local establishments.

In fact, it's quite easy to connect Arya to both Lanna and Tysha by only "two degrees of separation."  Dareon indisputably knew Tysha (he was one of her husbands/customers), and Arya knew Dareon (as I recall, Arya slit Dareon's throat right outside the Happy Port, where Tysha was working, for his act of deserting the Night's Watch)  

Now that Arya is back in Westeros, it is easy for me to imagine her mentioning The Sailor's Wife and Lanna to someone who will make the connection to Tysha, possibly even Tyrion himself.  Surely, Tyrion would immediately know that The Sailor's Wife is Tysha, and Lanna is his daughter, and go to find them both.

Hmmmm...maybe I AM predicting Tyrion and Tysha will end up together. though.  The evidence that The Sailor's Wife is Tysha and Lanna is Tyrion's daughter seems absolutely overwhelming to me, and I don't see any other match for Tyrion in sight.  (Theories that Tyrion is going to end up with Sansa or Dany seem extremely unlikely to me).   Maybe Tyrion's story will end with someone telling him about The Sailor's Wife, and Tyrion will head off to Braavos to find Tysha and Lanna.  Sounds "bittersweet" to me!

And oh, just for clarity's sake:  You must have replied to me almost instantly, cuz your quote of me doesn't have the very quick edit I did to change "The Wrath" to "The Wrath of the Mods" (for going off topic).   I made the change so you wouldn't think I meant your wrath, but you were too quick for me anyway.

Maybe I wlll send you a PM about Smallville.  I'll have to be careful, though, don't want to get in over my head too quickly (I'm sure you're an expert, while I've probably seen only 20 or 30 episodes; however, I used to be a HUGE fan of comic books, like GRRM himself, and I am still a big fan of comic book movies and some super hero t.v. shows)  I tihnk I better brush up on it first, though.  I own the first two seasons on Blu-Ray, I'll try to re-watch and let you know my progress.

but in the show I don't think they will focus on those tertiary characters since we have only a few episodes left.

for some reason they changed her name to Lanna and it would be interesting if there were more reasons to that than the obvious one that I think it is they don't wanted to stay true to the books even on her name.

don't sorry for the wrath. I thought you didn't like Snallville (I didn't understand that word in that context) but later I assumed you were talking about an episode called "Wrath" from Smallville from s7 iirc in which Lana is the protagonist. 20 episodes? Oh but you have to watch the ten seasons! The show makes sense when you see the characters develop through the seasons.

in fact I'm not quite a fan of s1. I would put it number 8 from the 10 seasons. Season 2 is better but ny favorite is s3.

Anyway if you want to discuss the first two seasons in Pm it's ok. I don't remember them a lot but more or less I know what happened.

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8 hours ago, Cron said:

Tysha/Tyrion:  Well, don't get me wrong, I'm not predicting Lanna and/or Tysha will necessarily appear, but...we don't know Arya didn't meet one or both of them.  Indeed, I think it would be incredibly coincidental that Arya called herself "Lanna" without ever having met Lanna, especially when they are in the same city, and when Arya is wandering the streets and local establishments.

 

Arya only chooses her name in the books, where she names herself Cat after her mother, and is yet another continuation of her refusing to let go of Arya Stark.  In the show, Jaqen merely gives her the name Lanna.  So you need to change your arguments to Jaqen knowing Lanna, not Arya. 

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3 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Arya only chooses her name in the books, where she names herself Cat after her mother, and is yet another continuation of her refusing to let go of Arya Stark.  In the show, Jaqen merely gives her the name Lanna.  So you need to change your arguments to Jaqen knowing Lanna, not Arya. 

Maybe.  You might be right that I "need to change my argument to Jaqen."

But even if the name did come from jaqen, that does not preclude the possibility that Arya knew Tysha and/or Lanna.

Bottom line is that I would have to re-read the relevant parts from the books, and re-watch the relevant parts from the show, and even then I believe neither the books nor show are going to "prove a negative" (in other words, conclusively prove that Arya DIDN'T know Tysha and/or Lanna)

But it's cool, great conversation, and if Jaqen provided the name "Lanna," then I'm honestly grateful for that information. (I certainly don't claim to be perfect, especially when the parallell universes of books and show have created such an enormous amount of information to draw from)

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10 minutes ago, Cron said:

Maybe.  You might be right that I "need to change my argument to Jaqen."

But even if the name did come from jaqen, that does not preclude the possibility that Arya knew Tysha and/or Lanna.

Bottom line is that I would have to re-read the relevant parts from the books, and re-watch the relevant parts from the show, and even then I believe neither the books nor show are going to "prove a negative" (in other words, conclusively prove that Arya DIDN'T know Tysha and/or Lanna)

But it's cool, great conversation, and if Jaqen provided the name "Lanna," then I'm honestly grateful for that information. (I certainly don't claim to be perfect, especially when the parallell universes of books and show have created such an enormous amount of information to draw from)

Honestly, I'd love to see they will be revealing things like these in the future (continuity, book references....) but I think it's almost impossible.

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1 minute ago, Cron said:

Maybe.  You might be right that I "need to change my argument to Jaqen."

But even if the name did come from jaqen, that does not preclude the possibility that Arya knew Tysha and/or Lanna.

Bottom line is that I would have to re-read the relevant parts from the books, and re-watch the relevant parts from the show, and even then I believe neither the books nor show are going to "prove a negative" (in other words, conclusively prove that Arya DIDN'T know Tysha and/or Lanna)

But it's cool, great conversation, and if Jaqen provided the name "Lanna," then I'm honestly grateful for that information. (I certainly don't claim to be perfect, especially when the parallell universes of books and show have created such an enormous amount of information to draw from)

Proving a negative is almost impossible.  Using that as evidence for the positive is logical fallacy.  With the show not giving a wet, steamy fart about Tysha since the high school slumber party scene, I will be shocked if she even exists anymore in the eyes of D&D.  

As far as the books, 

Quote

Cat was thinking about the fat boy, remembering how she had saved him from Terro and Orbelo, when the Sailor's Wife appeared beside her. "He sings a pretty song," she murmured softly, in the Common Tongue of Westeros. "The gods must have loved him to give him such a voice, and that fair face as well."

He is fair of face and foul of heart, thought Arya, but she did not say it. Dareon had once wed the Sailor's Wife, who would only bed with men who married her. The Happy Port sometimes had three or four weddings a night. Often the cheerful wine-soaked red priest Ezzelyno performed the rites. Elsewise it was Eustace, who had once been a septon at the Sept-Beyond-the-Sea. If neither priest nor septon was on hand, one of the whores would run to the Ship and fetch back a mummer. Merry always claimed the mummers made much better priests than priests, especially Myrmello.

 
Quote

 

Cat was thinking about the fat boy, remembering how she had saved him from Terro and Orbelo, when the Sailor's Wife appeared beside her. "He sings a pretty song," she murmured softly, in the Common Tongue of Westeros. "The gods must have loved him to give him such a voice, and that fair face as well."
He is fair of face and foul of heart, thought Arya, but she did not say it. Dareon had once wed the Sailor's Wife, who would only bed with men who married her. The Happy Port sometimes had three or four weddings a night. Often the cheerful wine-soaked red priest Ezzelyno performed the rites. Elsewise it was Eustace, who had once been a septon at the Sept-Beyond-the-Sea. If neither priest nor septon was on hand, one of the whores would run to the Ship and fetch back a mummer. Merry always claimed the mummers made much better priests than priests, especially Myrmello.
The weddings were loud and jolly, with a lot of drinking. Whenever Cat happened by with her barrow, the Sailor's Wife would insist that her new husband buy some oysters, to stiffen him for the consummation. She was good that way, and quick to laugh as well, but Cat thought there was something sad about her too.

 

 
Quote

 

The weddings were loud and jolly, with a lot of drinking. Whenever Cat happened by with her barrow, the Sailor's Wife would insist that her new husband buy some oysters, to stiffen him for the consummation. She was good that way, and quick to laugh as well, but Cat thought there was something sad about her too.

The other whores said that the Sailor's Wife visited the Isle of the Gods on the days when her flower was in bloom, and knew all the gods who lived there, even the ones that Braavos had forgotten. They said she went to pray for her first husband, her true husband, who had been lost at sea when she was a girl no older than Lanna. "She thinks that if she finds the right god, maybe he will send the winds and blow her old love back to her," said one-eyed Yna, who had known her longest, "but I pray it never happens. Her love is dead, I could taste that in her blood. If he ever should come back to her, it will be a corpse."

 

Another, much younger whore (teenager at oldest) in Braavos is Lanna.  While never stated, many theorize that she is the Sailor's Wife's child. That's your most likely candidate for Tysha in the books. There is NO evidence whatsoever that Arya thinks of them as anything other than whores in Braavos. (I've quoted about 80% of mentions of the Sailor's Wife in the books.  The remaining, and the Lanna references are merely by name). 

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1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

This scene

In this scene Cat seems to understand what she has done to Jon and feel bad about it. If that was in the books she may not had been my fav character but I wouldn't loathe her.

Although I think Cat treated Jon poorly, it's easy for me to feel sympathy for her about the situation..

Part of the genius of GRRM's work is the creation of conflicts of interests that tear the characters apart (so to speak) in diffferent directions. (This is really well expressed when Jaime is talking to Cat and bemoans the fact that, seemingly, no matter WHAT he does on major issues he's breaking some oath to somebody)

Regarding Ned's dilemma:  Personally if I was Ned, I think i would have told Cat the truth about Jon.  I probably would have whispered it in Cat's ear late some night when no one could possibly have heard, and asked her not to say a word about it, not even in response to what I was telling her.  In my opinion, Lyanna would have understood..indeed, I would think Lyanna would have considered it worth it to have her son, Jon, raised in a more loving home.

Lyanna was Ned's sister, but Cat was his wife, and when Lyanna made Ned make his promise she didn't know how it could or would affect Jon for the rest of his life.

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On 27.9.2016 at 8:16 PM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

And Gogol burned the second part of Dead Sould anyway.

But I feel you. I need closure at least for the biggest storylines. I can live without knowing where whores go or where the Valirian swords gone or what happened to Rickon, but pleeeeeease...

I guess I got confused because recorded fragments of the second part exist. Fragments are what we’ll get for the end of ASoIaF too, I’d wager. I’d cut Martin some slack if he goes as far as to burn all his notes because he got so infuriated at his fans for predicting his death and writing bad fan fiction.

What bothers me is that it seems like the story starts where the books end. In the first three books we got some build up, shit went down, then there was some sort of closure after which even more shit went down so there was a reason to be excited for the next book.
In the last two books however we get build-up-build-up-build-up  and just when things get interesting (Brienne meets Lady SH, Jaime follows Brienne, Jon gets stabbed,  Theon resurfaces with Jeyne, whatever Stannis does, Sam FINALLY arrives in Oldtown, Davos goes on a mission to find Rickon, Bran FINALLY meets Bloodraven, Dany FINALLY gets out of Meereen… and is lost in the Dothraki Sea AGAIN) we’re told „sorry, book’s over, have fun waiting estimated 3-30 years“.

On 27.9.2016 at 8:28 PM, JonSnow4President said:

Just remember the books aren't done.  You're going to have your closure in the end.

In envy your optimism.

On 24.9.2016 at 10:11 PM, Dragon in the North said:

I'm saying we shouldn't have to guess why a storyline is important or what impact it will have in the future. When Ned died, I didn't have to wonder why Martin was showing me this because the impact of his death was revealed in that very same book. The same can be said for Tyrion's trail, the Red Wedding, Tywin's death, Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion, etc. The very fact that we have to guess why Young Griff matters, why Myrcella's maiming is important, why we needed to see Brienne fruitlessly traveling around the Riverlands looking for Sansa is proof enough that it's bad storytelling.

I wholeheartedly agree. Even in a series a book should be a somewhat closed entity. Martin proved it's possible with the first three books. But now he's putting too much effort into details while forgetting the bigger picture. Or he just doesn't care anymore. Or both.

To me people who claim books don't need closure are like people raving about abstract art. Glad you found the meaning of life in a painting of a black square on a white black background. I'll keep enjoying mainstream paintings of kittens and flowers, thank you very much.

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14 minutes ago, Land's End said:

In envy your optimism.

Whatever helps me stay alive.

14 minutes ago, Land's End said:

I wholeheartedly agree. Even in a series a book should be a somewhat closed entity. Martin proved it's possible with the first three books. But now he's putting too much effort into details while forgetting the bigger picture. Or he just doesn't care anymore. Or both.

To me people who claim books don't need closure are like people raving about abstract art. Glad you found the meaning of life in a painting of a black square on a white black background. I'll keep enjoying mainstream paintings of kittens and flowers, thank you very much.

The thing is we do have some version of closure in the storyline for each book, at least with that vast majority of POV characters (I won't say we really get it with Stannis for example).  But Jon obviously gets stabby stabbed.  Brienne's search for the Stark girls comes to an end with Stonehart.  Jaime brings Lannister "peace" to the Riverlands,  Cersei's time ruling as Queen mother ends and she undergoes her Walk of Shame. The familial conflict in Dorne is resolved. The Ironborn are more open, but they have a political arc with setup for TWoW bolted onto the back of it. Theon de-Reekifies.  Dany comes to terms with her identity (the big struggle in her with ADWD), with a coup occurring in her absence. Sam completes his journey to Oldtown.  Tyrion fights against his depression, discovers his will to not die (not necessarily live, but definitely not die), and falls into and escapes slavery. 

That leaves Bran, Sansa, and Arya as the only ones without a loose end-point to the book's ark.  Each of the 3 is being trained by their respective "mentors," but we don't really get that ending of the training or of a particular conflict or character arc in the story, but their stories contain a very small amount of chapters while they are undergoing that training as it is. 

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18 hours ago, Cron said:

Although I think Cat treated Jon poorly, it's easy for me to feel sympathy for her about the situation..

I don't see why someone should feel sympathy for her. Egoism, egocentricity and pride aren’t a reason why someone should abuse an innocent and defenseless person. Being a decent human being isn’t an achievement, it’s the foundation of our life. Cat emotionally abused him just because she was felt bad. IMNSHO there is absolutely no reason to feel symathy  about her.

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33 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't see why someone should feel sympathy for her. Egoism, egocentricity and pride aren’t a reason why someone should abuse an innocent and defenseless person.

Well, I don't remeber any mentiones that Cat abused Jon, she neglected him the whole life. And it wasn't her evil character. In the show Jon reminded Cta about Ned's infidelity (modern version). In the books she was worried that one day Jon will rise against his half-brother and Stark's bannermen will support him because he looks more Stark than any other (feudal version). Of course, it doesn't make Jon's situation any better, but I feel sympathy to her.

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17 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Well, I don't remeber any mentiones that Cat abused Jon, she neglected him the whole life. And it wasn't her evil character. In the show Jon reminded Cta about Ned's infidelity (modern version). In the books she was worried that one day Jon will rise against his half-brother and Stark's bannermen will support him because he looks more Stark than any other (feudal version). Of course, it doesn't make Jon's situation any better, but I feel sympathy to her.

JQC and I have had this argument before in the book forum.  She is steadfastly determined to maintain her viewpoint, and not consider the reality of the world the character's live in as providing any sort of mitigating factor.  Jon is completely innocent (true), and couldn't possibly be a living avatar of all of her political and personal insecurities that make her fear for her children (of course he is).  Catelyn is so bad, she can only be the bastard unloved child of the antichrist and Cthulu. 

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11 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't see why someone should feel sympathy for her. Egoism, egocentricity and pride aren’t a reason why someone should abuse an innocent and defenseless person. Being a decent human being isn’t an achievement, it’s the foundation of our life. Cat emotionally abused him just because she was felt bad. IMNSHO there is absolutely no reason to feel symathy  about her.

 

I agree 100% with nearly everything you wrote...except your first and last sentences

Certainly, I did not mean to give the impression that I was excusing or condoning Cat's treatment of Jon.  Far from it. (Actually, if you want to know the truth, I think how Cat treated Jon was terrible, AND quite inconsistent with what we know of her character from many other different scenes.  I honestly don't believe Cat WOULD treat Jon that way, but GRRM says otherwise, so I guess that's that.)

But the sympathy I feel for Cat is b/c of what happened to her.  Something bad DID happen to Cat:   Her husband came home with an illegitimate child, LIED and claimed it was his, and kept that child in the household for well over a decade, living the lie day after day, undoubtedly subjecting Cat to untold embarrassment and humiliation on a daily basis.

Okay, freeze the picture right there.  THAT'S why I feel sympathy for her.

Okay, now roll picture forward...and then we talk about how she reacted to all of that, and how she treated Jon.  That's the part I agree with you 100% on.  The fact that something bad happened to her does not justify or excuse how she treats Jon, BUT...the fact that she treated Jon poorly doesn't change the fact that something bad happened to Cat, either.

See what I mean?

In fact, we see similar things with a lot of characters in Game of Thrones.  Cersei has done a lot of bad stuff, but she's had bad stuff happen to her, too.  The fact that she has had bad stuff happen to her does not excuse or justify the bad things she's done, BUT the bad things she's done don't change the fact that bad things DID happen to her, either.  

For example, I can feel sympathy for Cersei b/c of the bad things that happened to her without claiming the bad things that happened to her justify or excuse the bad things she did to others.

Indeed, if the fact that a character has done a bad thing in ASOIAF totally prevented us from feeling any sympathy for them in any other context, the story would be a very, very different experience (cuz so many characters have had bad things done to them, AND have done bad things to other people too...in fat, I think this describes nearly everyone.  Do you like Dany?  Well, guess what, Dany has had bad stuff done to her, AND has done some BAD STUFF in her quest for power herself.  Do you like Khal Drogo?  Feel some symathy for him b/c of how he basically became brain dead and then physically died?  Guess what, Khal Drogo and his horde did some BAD stuff.  Just ask Mirri Maz Duur).

I could go on and on, character after character.  People feel sympathy for Jaime getting his hand chopped off...even though he tried to kill Bran.  People feel a lot of sympathy for Sandor's face being burned when he was a kid...even though he grew up and butchered a LOT of people.   People feel sympathy for Theon b/c of how Ramsay tortured him...even though Theon did some really bad stuff himself.

 

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6 hours ago, Cron said:

snip

I agree with what you said. Most of ASOIAF characters are in the grey zone, they do good and bad things and bad things happen to them sometimes even if they didn't deserve them. If they do bad things mostly we see the motives behind this. Of course, it is personal choice how you deal with the situation, but still most characters have their reasons behind their bad action, not just pure evilness. There are characters who just enjoy see people suffer, f.e. Joff, Ramsay, The Mountain, but they are few.

So we sympathize characters in onesituation and hate them in another. I dislike Cat's treatment of Jon, but I sympathize to what happened to her: her husband died, one son was crippled, the other one was killed in front of her eyes and even a rest in peace was taken from her. I hate most things what Cersei did, but I feel sorry for her being married to abusive husband, seeing her son dying etc

In more superficial fiction it is much easear to like or dislike a character as a whole, because they are less complex.

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