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Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

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Jaqen Hgar saving Arya from Harrenhal:

This was done really well in the show preserving the mystique of the FM, compared to the books where Jaqen pretty much follows Arya around like an average guy and frees the prisoners.

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50 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Yes, of course the "marital" rape of Dany in the show makes me hugely uncomfortable! 

But the point is: it is meant to make the watcher uncomfortable, it is brutal, cruel and straightforward rape, not romanticized at all. A clear description of an awful situation.

While in the books Martin romanticized the abuse of a very young girl, suggesting that the frightened and shy child would be easily aroused by her abuser, rape turned into vanilla romance ideology. The situation may be glorified and on the surface easier to digest but the ideology behind it is imo gross: She doesn't really dislike it, she'll come around as soon as you do it. An abuser's wet dream.

Now I am sure that Martin really, seriously intended to romanticize the situation, it was a different time at the beginning of the nineties and the awareness for the topic of child abuse was much lower. I bet Martin would never have written it that way today and the show corrected an error from Martin's side. I love Martin's books but we can find some misogyny even in the works of the greatest writers.

If the show had given the situation the same way Martin did back then there would have been a shitstorm about rape ideology all over the web. And rightfully so. This way the show made a clear statement and preseted a disturbing and ugly act of marital rape as such.

I don't recall reading Dany's wedding night as something "romantic".

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't recall reading Dany's wedding night as something "romantic".

I did not see it as anyhow sexy or romantic in the books either, I found it hugely disturbing, but it was not meant by Martin to be so very disturbing. The way the helpless girl gets aroused by the big male beast when the author should have written about fear, pain and disgust from the abused child. This is what annoys me in Martin's writing here.

But let's leave the topic, I don't think we are so far apart from each other here.

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8 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

I did not see it as anyhow sexy or romantic in the books either, I found it hugely disturbing, but it was not meant to be so very disturbing. The way the helpless girl gets aroused by the big male beast when he should have written about fear, pain and disgust from the abused child. This is what annoys me in Martin's writing here.

well now I don't remember it exactly but I am referring to the wedding night (and the day) when she is frightened but accepts it with redignation. Later things change. I am not a fan of Dany and Drogo but I wouldn't have liked to see a brutal scene when reading. i got the feeling she didn't liked it and we don't know the details, period. just the fact that she has to accept that marriage and the marital consequences of it until things change after, like a lot fortunately

\\sorry for my spelling

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16 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Yes, your free to think what you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the quote you constantly use to back up your biased wishes, explicitly means the exact opposite of what you claim it does. 

You mean the fact according to you.

16 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Would Cat have betrayed Jon for the sake of her own children? Perhaps, I would presume the same would be true for most parents, but it doesn't change the fact that the text supports that Ned did trust her.

If he had trusted her she would had known who Jon was.

16 hours ago, Darkstream said:

So again, think what you want, but your thoughts on the matter are purely fan-fic, and are contradicted by canon.

GRRM is that you? :o :eek: Because if you aren't, your thoughts on this matter are as good as mine and not better.

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3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You mean the fact according to you.

No, I mean fact according to the the definition of a fact. My opinion on the matter is irrelevant. A fact is what it is, there is no room for subjective interpretation. The fact is, this passage written by GRRM, states the exact opposite of what you claim it does.

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If he had trusted her she would had known who Jon was.

That is incorrect, as the quote you were so kind to provide, specifically states the opposite. 

Quote

GRRM is that you? :o :eek: Because if you aren't, your thoughts on this matter are as good as mine and not better.

I'm not arguing my thoughts on the matter. GRRM's own words, that he wrote in the book, prove that you are wrong, and his canon text is better than your biased thoughts.

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1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

No, I mean fact according to the the definition of a fact. My opinion on the matter is irrelevant. A fact is what it is, there is no room for subjective interpretation. The fact is, this passage written by GRRM, states the exact opposite of what you claim it does.

The fact is that Ned didn't told Cat the truth which means that he couldn't trust her. If he did there is no reason why he wouldn't had told her.

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

That is incorrect, as the quote you were so kind to provide, specifically states the opposite. 

Point to me where it was told that he was trusting her with his biggest secret. He loved her sure but he didn't trusted her.

2 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

GRRM's own words

GRRM's words is that Ned was keeping a huge secret from Cat. A secret who would had made the lives of the whole family better and yet he didn't told her anything. 

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50 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The fact is that Ned didn't told Cat the truth which means that he couldn't trust her. If he did there is no reason why he wouldn't had told her.

Except for the fact that Ned thinks, some secrets are too dangerous to share with even the one's that you love and trust.

I guess, according to your logic, Ned didn't trust the abomination born, traitorous, oathbreaking bastard Jon Snow either. He would have told him, but I guess Jon would have betrayed him as well.

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Point to me where it was told that he was trusting her with his biggest secret. He loved her sure but he didn't trusted her.

It's not told, you're just building a straw man here. I've never stated that it was.

Quote

GRRM's words is that Ned was keeping a huge secret from Cat. A secret who would had made the lives of the whole family better and yet he didn't told her anything. 

No, his words imply that Ned is keeping a huge secret from everybody, including the people that he trusts. 

ETA: As it's clear that you don't care about what is written in the books, and just want to live in your little fantasy fan-fic, as well as this being off topic, I will refrain from replying to you any further.

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Tyrion's entrance is better in the show than it is in the books. That silly sommersault from above the doorway is extremely out of place.

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57 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Except for the fact that Ned thinks, some secrets are too dangerous to share with even the one's that you love and trust.

I guess, according to your logic, Ned didn't trust the abomination born, traitorous, oathbreaking bastard Jon Snow either. He would have told him, but I guess Jon would have betrayed him as well.

 

57 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

It's not told, you're just building a straw man here. I've never stated that it was.

So your "facts" are based on your wishful thinking turned fanfiction.

Good to know.

57 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

No, his words imply that Ned is keeping a huge secret from everybody, including the people that he trusts. 

ETA: As it's clear that you don't care about what is written in the books, and just want to live in your little fantasy fan-fic, as well as this being off topic, I will refrain from replying to you any further.

Can you prove me wrong? No because if Ned trusted Cat he would had told her the truth in order to make her life better and that is what it is the books, where it is also told that Ned was afraid of what she would had done to Jon. The same books he called her damn cruel for her behavior to Jon. You can wishful thinking all you want but you have no better clues that I have.

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Tywin

Jorah

Bronn

Removal of Tyrion's acrobatics.

The scenes that were added in Season 1 were really good (apart from the sexposition scenes). Stuff like Robert and Cersei talking about their mariage or Robert and Jaime talking about the Mad King.

I also liked Arya and Tywin at Harrenal 

More stuff about the White Walkers.

Having a Tyrell POV was also nice.

I don't like most of the other changes the show has made. 

In some ways it was good that they aged the kids up for example the Dany and Drogo scenes wouldn't have worked with 13-year old (and I don't like it in the books either). However, sometimes the children just act childish and when the children or young adults in the show do so, it often makes them look stupid, because they are several years older than their book counterparts and supposed to be more mature. 

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9 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Yes, of course the "marital" rape of Dany in the show makes me hugely uncomfortable! 

But the point is: it is meant to make the watcher uncomfortable, it is brutal, cruel and straightforward rape, not romanticized at all. A clear description of an awful situation.

While in the books Martin romanticized the abuse of a very young girl, suggesting that the frightened and shy child would be easily aroused by her abuser, rape turned into vanilla romance ideology. The situation may be glorified and on the surface easier to digest but the ideology behind it is imo gross: She doesn't really dislike it, she'll come around as soon as you do it. An abuser's wet dream.

Now I am sure that Martin really, seriously intended to romanticize the situation, it was a different time at the beginning of the nineties and the awareness for the topic of child abuse was much lower. I bet Martin would never have written it that way today and the show corrected an error from Martin's side. I love Martin's books but we can find some misogyny even in the works of the greatest writers.

If the show had given the situation the same way Martin did back then there would have been a shitstorm about rape ideology all over the web. And rightfully so. This way the show made a clear statement and preseted a disturbing and ugly act of marital rape as such.

You sir/ma'am deserve a huge round of applause!!

A 13 year old girl getting all sexy with a brute twice her age that doesn't speak her language is just terrible. Sounds like the plot summary of a weird porn. While I usually applaud GRRM's grasp of the human experience and emotions, this was a huuuuge mishandling in my opinion. Feels more like creepy fanfiction than actual literature. 

As for Tommen/Marg, I will say this in comparison to Dany/Drogo. Tommen and Marg knew each other, spoke the same language, had the same culture. Tommen was very attracted to Margaery, that has been established since day one. There is not a huge age gap, probably six or seven years. While undeniably creepy, I do not find this on the same level as Dany/Drogo, due to the presence of that funny little thing called consent. Tommen made it extremely clear he was comfortable with and eager to consummate the marriage. 

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1 hour ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

In some ways it was good that they aged the kids up for example the Dany and Drogo scenes wouldn't have worked with 13-year old (and I don't like it in the books either). However, sometimes the children just act childish and when the children or young adults in the show do so, it often makes them look stupid, because they are several years older than their book counterparts and supposed to be more mature.

Yep. F.e. Robb's behavior seemed just stupid. I assume that a 15y.o. would be totally flabbergasted by sex and make impulsive decisions. But it's hard to imagine 20-something Robb behaving so. TBH, for me characters' age as just fictional as the whole setting.

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11 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I assume there must be other people involved in the whole R+L thing. F.e. those who helped Lyanna elope, a septon who married them or witnesses of a ceremony etc. We just don#t know anything about them, but probably they will appear later.

Good points, could be true.  There could be other people to vouch for Jon's lineage.   Maybe even the wet nurse we saw at the Tower of Joy last season.  I still can't believe they left Jon Connington out of the show, he might have been able to verify some of this stuff, too.  (I was really looking forward to seeing all the other people that were supposed to be on that boat with Tyrion, but nope.)

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8 minutes ago, Cron said:

I still can't believe they left Jon Connington out of the show, he might have been able to verify some of this stuff, too.  (I was really looking forward to seeing all the other people that were supposed to be on that boat with Tyrion, but nope.)

JonCon was slayed with the whole fAegon's storyline. But taking into account the show's logic, it would be enough for HR to appear out of nowhere and/or for Bran to roll his eyes in a spectacular way in order to convince everybody;)

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12 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't recall reading Dany's wedding night as something "romantic".

Dany later looks back on that night and thinks she was afraid, but excited. GRRM talks about it here:

Quote

The original pilot followed the book much more... At the climax of that wedding, Drogo gives Dany a silver horse, which she just calls her silver, a beautiful horse... She mounts the horse and she sort of rides away. And there's a big fire in the middle of the camp here, where there's a huge fire pit. And we think for a moment that my god, is she trying to run away from her wedding? Is she fleeing?

There's some suspense. She actually rides the horse out, she proves that she can ride, and she turns the horse around, and comes galloping into the camp, faster and faster, and her horse leaps over the fire pit, leaps over the fire, and this endears her to Drogo. He admires her courage, and although she's not an experienced rider, the fact that she was willing to try this fire leap...

What happens later in the books is Drogo and Dany ride out to to consummate their marriage... You have Dany and Drogo riding out, and they find this little secluded spot, there's a stream. And Drogo doesn't speak any English, so they're talking to each other, and she says is no the only word you know. And they undress, and there's a sex scene which was pretty sexy and fairly romantic.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21681757

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1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Dany later looks back on that night and thinks she was afraid, but excited. GRRM talks about it here:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21681757

The fact that none of you see nothing wrong with this stuff in the books is so baffling to me, when you criticize the show so harshly. Thirteen year old girls do not want to have sex with strangers. It's not exciting or sexy or anything other than creepy. GRRM trying to make it seem sweet and romantic is frankly disgusting.

I know D&D have made their own mistakes in that regard, but at least they depict rape as what is: gross, brutish, and damaging. 

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11 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Tywin

Jorah

Bronn

Removal of Tyrion's acrobatics.

The scenes that were added in Season 1 were really good (apart from the sexposition scenes). Stuff like Robert and Cersei talking about their mariage or Robert and Jaime talking about the Mad King.

I also liked Arya and Tywin at Harrenal 

More stuff about the White Walkers.

Having a Tyrell POV was also nice.

I don't like most of the other changes the show has made. 

In some ways it was good that they aged the kids up for example the Dany and Drogo scenes wouldn't have worked with 13-year old (and I don't like it in the books either). However, sometimes the children just act childish and when the children or young adults in the show do so, it often makes them look stupid, because they are several years older than their book counterparts and supposed to be more mature. 

Great stuff, I enjoyed reading it all.

Yes, i really loved the scenes like the ones you describe from Season One as well (there are similar ones in other seasons, too),where scenes are added that could have happened in the books, but weren't "shown" in the books.  They do not contradict the books, they supplement the books.  You mentioned a couple great examples (Jaime, Robert and Barristan talking about the Mad King, and the Robert and Cersei scene) and there are others.  I even liked the short scene we got from Robert's boar hunt.  I liked the conversation between Renly and Robert, it told us some more about who each one is, and how interacted with each other.

In my opinion, the show would have been even better if they had done more stuff like this, AND, as a bonus, they probably could have stretched the first five books into at least 7 seasons, if not more (especially if they had also not cut so much material outright)   They coulda milked this thing for a while, but no, they raced through the material, chopping stuff out left and right...and then ran out of canon material.

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9 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

JonCon was slayed with the whole fAegon's storyline. But taking into account the show's logic, it would be enough for HR to appear out of nowhere and/or for Bran to roll his eyes in a spectacular way in order to convince everybody;)

Yeah, I wish they hadn't cut out ALL of the Griff and Young Griff storyline.  I was really looking forward to seeing all of those characters, and even now I'm not convinced Young Griff is NOT Rhaegar's son Aegon.  I know it seems hard to believe they would cut out such incredibly important stuff, but then, look at some of the other changes they have made.

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4 hours ago, Cron said:

Yeah, I wish they hadn't cut out ALL of the Griff and Young Griff storyline.  I was really looking forward to seeing all of those characters, and even now I'm not convinced Young Griff is NOT Rhaegar's son Aegon.  I know it seems hard to believe they would cut out such incredibly important stuff, but then, look at some of the other changes they have made.

Aye, it's hard to tell what role Young Griff will play in the future. I assume that he could end up a big fat red herring and just die, while we're sitting there with popcorn and waiting eagerly for a Dance of Dragons 2.0 to happen. If fAegon would be really gamechanging, the show would have introduced him at some point.

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