Jump to content

Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?


Cron

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 

 

 You can't just go by book count. You have to go by theme. The first three books are almost definitively the first act. Book 4 (which is when they were introduced, let's be clear about that) is the beginning of Act 2.

Hmmmm...  You are correct that they were introduced in AFFC, not ADWD.  My mistake there. (It's been about 6 years since I read the books.  Almost exactly 6 years, in fact)

Having said that:  Just about everything else I said is still valid.  These characters appear almost exclusively in ONE out of FIVE books, and were introduced VERY late compared to many other characters, and then, even after they were introduced, they got FAR less "stage time" (or screen time) than many other characters.

Although this is just a friendly discussion (as opposed to a formal debate, HAR!), I really don't see how you can get around these facts.  These characters are introduced LATE in the game, and given very little time after that.  I suppose my point is that, in light of all that, it's not too surprising to me that many fans don't hold them anywhere NEAR as dear as many of the other POV chapter characters.

But good conversation, though, and thanks for correcting me about when some of these characters were introduced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Cron said:

Again, I strongly agree with your final point.  Yes, Sansa's behavior is even MORE inexplicable given that she and we all know Littlefinger cannot be trusted AT ALL. In fact, at one point, Sansa flat out says it (I can't remember who she's talking to, it might have been Jon, but last season Sansa said something like "anyone who trusts Littlefinger is a fool.")  Okay, so, we are told BY SANSA that she TRUSTS Jon, and anyone who trusts Littlefinger is a fool, yet when it came to the Battle of the Bastards, she trusts Littlefinger and NOT Jon???  What?? Makes no sense to me.

Regarding Jon and Sansa growing up, though...you might be right.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but to my recollection, we just have an absence of information about Jon and Sansa's relationship growing up.  We are told (and shown) that Jon was VERY close to Robb, Arya, and Bran, but regarding Sansa...just nothing, so far as I recall, one way or the other.

Who knows, maybe I'm forgetting something, though.  Maybe she did treat him like a second class family member b/c he was a bastard.  If someone has a quote or quotes on this, I'd be interested to read it.

Regarding the incident with Joffrey, Sansa, Arya and Micah...yeah, I hear you, but to me it just showed that at the time Sansa was really immature, not necessarily "bad by nature" (my words).  But who knows, maybe we ARE going to be eventually told that she actually is bad. Dunno.

Oh I know you are agreeing with me I didn't mean for it to sound like you weren't. And yeah I don't think she was bad for saying that just selfish and stupid. Also I will say this I don't think she trusted littlefinger but knew they needed more soldiers and figured what did she have to lose. And yeah she was talking to jon about not trusting littlefinger when they watched mel leave winterfell. Also I may be thinking of how she treated jon in the books instead of the show. Although she did apoligize to him at castle black

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Oh I know you are agreeing with me I didn't mean for it to sound like you weren't. And yeah I don't think she was bad for saying that just selfish and stupid. Also I will say this I don't think she trusted littlefinger but knew they needed more soldiers and figured what did she have to lose. And yeah she was talking to jon about not trusting littlefinger when they watched mel leave winterfell. Also I may be thinking of how she treated jon in the books instead of the show. Although she did apoligize to him at castle black

Yeah, I admit I don't really recall details about whether there's information about how Sansa treated Jon growing up.

If you or anyone reading this has specific quotes (from books or show), I'd be very interested in them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Cron said:

Yeah, I admit I don't really recall details about whether there's information about how Sansa treated Jon growing up.

If you or anyone reading this has specific quotes (from books or show), I'd be very interested in them.

In the books he said  he even missed sansa who always refeered to him as her half brother since she learned what a bastard is. I don't know if those are the exact words but they are what was said. There are others I can't remember.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

In the books he said  he even missed sansa who always refeered to him as her half brother since she learned what a bastard is. I don't know if those are the exact words but they are what was said. There are others I can't remember.

Hmmm...

Perhaps others can shed more light on this then.

I think it would be worth exploring, could give us insight into Sansa's possible machinations in Season 6 and Season 7.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there anything on the show that I like better than the books? 

Not really.  The writers are not as good as George.  Which is obvious.  They have created their own characters.  Catelyn, Jon, and Arya on the show are nothing like their real parts in the books.  I still don't like them on the show because I have read the books and know what they're really like but it is too bad the show-only fans aren't getting the real characters as George created them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologies if either has been brought up I just saw the thread and wasn't about to go through 44 pages to find out that probably my two favorite quotes are show only: When Ned is talking to Varys and I'm paraphrasing but he says something along the lines of "you were raised by actors you learned their trade and you learned it well, but I was raised by soldiers I learned to die a long time ago!" And obviously my namesakes quote after Edmure tells him no laws of men can compel me to marry "The laws of my fist are about to compel your teeth"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, snow is the man said:

In the books he said  he even missed sansa who always refeered to him as her half brother since she learned what a bastard is. I don't know if those are the exact words but they are what was said. There are others I can't remember.

 

5 hours ago, Cron said:

Hmmm...

Perhaps others can shed more light on this then.

I think it would be worth exploring, could give us insight into Sansa's possible machinations in Season 6 and Season 7.

Yes, I took up the challenge, @Cron 

Here's what I found:

Quote

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

Quote

"There was a black brother," Sansa said, "begging men for the Wall, only he was kind of old and smelly." She hadn't liked that at all. She had always imagined the Night's Watch to be men like Uncle Benjen. In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall. But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this was what the Night's Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon.

A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

Quote

Sansa knew most of the hymns, and followed along on those she did not know as best she could. She sang along with grizzled old serving men and anxious young wives, with serving girls and soldiers, cooks and falconers, knights and knaves, squires and spit boys and nursing mothers. She sang with those inside the castle walls and those without, sang with all the city. She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall.

A Clash of Kings - Sansa V

Quote

 Oh, and the Night's Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's."

"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised.

"Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose."

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

As far as I can tell, that's the totality of Sansa's considerations of her bastard half-brother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

 

Yes, I took up the challenge, @Cron 

Here's what I found:

A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

A Clash of Kings - Sansa V

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

As far as I can tell, that's the totality of Sansa's considerations of her bastard half-brother.

Wow, great stuff, thanks for the effort, I read it all with interest!

My conclusion:  Far from there being any animosity between Jon and Sansa, she actually thinks fondly and warmly about him.   She feels sorry for him b/c he's at the Wall with guys like the nasty man of the Night's Watch she saw, and thinks it would be sweet to see Jon again.

Seems to me like anything else out there on this subject would very likely be similar in nature, since the quotes you produced all seem very consistent.  I doubt very much there's any support for a belief that she looked down on Jon or disliked him in any other way, since that would be heavily contrary to all the quotes you just produced.

And this makes sense.  There's really no reason for Jon and Sansa to have had any friction between them growing up, and from what we know of each of them, it seems far more likely that they had very little interaction at all.  Sansa was very feminine and ladylike, doing things indoors far more often than not, and Jon was much more an outdoor kind of guy, riding horses, training to fight, et cetera.

Plus of course Jon is a very easy-going guy, who we've seen go out of his way to NOT antagonize Cat, Ned or their family in any way (best example of this I can think of offhand:  In Season One, when Jon is about to leave Winterfell and says goodbye to Bran, who is already in bed in a coma after his fall, Cat is there and treats Jon like garbage, as usual.  After Jon leaves the room and sees Robb right before leaving Winterfell, Robb asks him something about it, and Jon lies to Robb, saying something like Cat was very gracious, when the reality was that Cat had just treated Jon poorly, as usual.  That is Jon going out of his way to keep the peace, and not make waves in the Stark family, and I've always taken that as being representative of how Jon was growing up there.  My guess is that if Sansa HAD ever been snotty to him, he would have just meekly taken it, and walked away, thus defusing the situation.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Cron said:

Wow, great stuff, thanks for the effort, I read it all with interest!

My conclusion:  Far from there being any animosity between Jon and Sansa, she actually thinks fondly and warmly about him.   She feels sorry for him b/c he's at the Wall with guys like the nasty man of the Night's Watch she saw, and thinks it would be sweet to see Jon again.

Spoiler

 

Seems to me like anything else out there on this subject would very likely be similar in nature, since the quotes you produced all seem very consistent.  I doubt very much there's any support for a belief that she looked down on Jon or disliked him in any other way, since that would be heavily contrary to all the quotes you just produced.

And this makes sense.  There's really no reason for Jon and Sansa to have had any friction between them growing up, and from what we know of each of them, it seems far more likely that they had very little interaction at all.  Sansa was very feminine and ladylike, doing things indoors far more often than not, and Jon was much more an outdoor kind of guy, riding horses, training to fight, et cetera.

Plus of course Jon is a very easy-going guy, who we've seen go out of his way to NOT antagonize Cat, Ned or their family in any way (best example of this I can think of offhand:  In Season One, when Jon is about to leave Winterfell and says goodbye to Bran, who is already in bed in a coma after his fall, Cat is there and treats Jon like garbage, as usual.  After Jon leaves the room and sees Robb right before leaving Winterfell, Robb asks him something about it, and Jon lies to Robb, saying something like Cat was very gracious, when the reality was that Cat had just treated Jon poorly, as usual.  That is Jon going out of his way to keep the peace, and not make waves in the Stark family, and I've always taken that as being representative of how Jon was growing up there.  My guess is that if Sansa HAD ever been snotty to him, he would have just meekly taken it, and walked away, thus defusing the situation.)

 

 

Fascinating, @Cron

I came away with an entirely different conclusion and at the same I perfectly understand your POV.

That's what I love about this forum- we're all of us passionate about this remarkable text and interpret it according to our own lights.

One thing I think we're completely in agreement upon- GRRM is a master of ambiguity!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I came away with a different impression, too. It's even stronger if you look at when he thinks of her, too.

She was snooty to Jon and it hurt his feelings. GRRM keeps emphasizing the half brother bastard thing with her. And Jon often doesn't include her in his fond remembrances of the others, or it's qualified, like even Sansa. I think that Sansa's snootiness toward them was something Jon and Arya bonded over (among many other things). Like the "don't tell Sansa" joke (implication, she has ratted on them before).

But I think he's telling a very different story than the show. I think Sansa will resolve this in much better ways in the books. The show left out the direwolf connections, and in the books, GRRM heavily hints that Sandor (the Hound) took Lady's place. There's a much more interesting story going on along those lines that they aren't showing, but will likely allude to the conclusion in the final season. The show is just not deep, it's faux drama.

Also here are some GRRM quotes...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Fascinating, @Cron

I came away with an entirely different conclusion and at the same I perfectly understand your POV.

That's what I love about this forum- we're all of us passionate about this remarkable text and interpret it according to our own lights.

One thing I think we're completely in agreement upon- GRRM is a master of ambiguity!

Wow, that is interesting, and I agree that our different perspectives make this an intellectually stimulating forum.

But...as I understood it, she says she feels sympathy (or sorrow) towards him, and says it would be sweet to see him again.

Whereas, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything in there that I found to be condescending, or even snooty or snotty.

Hmmm...

Maybe I'll re-read those passages and consider it some more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I came away with a different impression, too. It's even stronger if you look at when he thinks of her, too.

She was snooty to Jon and it hurt his feelings. GRRM keeps emphasizing the half brother bastard thing with her. And Jon often doesn't include her in his fond remembrances of the others, or it's qualified, like even Sansa. I think that Sansa's snootiness toward them was something Jon and Arya bonded over (among many other things). Like the "don't tell Sansa" joke (implication, she has ratted on them before).

But I think he's telling a very different story than the show. I think Sansa will resolve this in much better ways in the books. The show left out the direwolf connections, and in the books, GRRM heavily hints that Sandor (the Hound) took Lady's place. There's a much more interesting story going on along those lines that they aren't showing, but will likely allude to the conclusion in the final season. The show is just not deep, it's faux drama.

Also here are some GRRM quotes...

Hmmmm.

Maybe.  But I never got the impression that Jon had a beef with Sansa, just that they were not at all close (thus, the "even Sansa" remark(s) that you mentioned)

The person who truly treated Jon like dirt was Cat, of course (Which has always struck me as being absurd, and highly immature on Cat's part.  So, lemme get this straight: Cat is FINE with Ned, has a close, loving relationship with him, even though as far as Cat knows NED is at fault for Jon's existence, yet blames JON and treats him like dirt even though Jon was and is completely innocent in the entire matter, and had no say in it whatsoever???  In fact, I've always thought that this was not only immature of Cat, but also very inconsistent with the rest of her character, even in the books.)

In any event, given how relaxed (albeit, yes, hurt) Jon was about Cat's poor treatment of him, I find it hard to believe he harbored some grudge against Sansa for unspecified (and speculative, so far as I know) wrongs against him.

But, of course, these are all legitimates points of view.  I do believe there's enough ambiguity here to allow for multiple interpretations, so it's not like I'm claiming "I'm right, and I have proven it."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had … yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"You'll find someone," Jon promised her. "King's Landing is a true city, a thousand times the size of Winterfell. Until you find a partner, watch how they fight in the yard. Run, and ride, make yourself strong. And whatever you do …"

Arya knew what was coming next. They said it together.

"… don't … tell … Sansa!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Cron said:
Spoiler

 

Hmmmm.

Maybe.  But I never got the impression that Jon had a beef with Sansa, just that they were not at all close (thus, the "even Sansa" remark(s) that you mentioned)

The person who truly treated Jon like dirt was Cat, of course (Which has always struck me as being absurd, and highly immature on Cat's part.  So, lemme get this straight: Cat is FINE with Ned, has a close, loving relationship with him, even though as far as Cat knows NED is at fault for Jon's existence, yet blames JON and treats him like dirt even though Jon was and is completely innocent in the entire matter, and had no say in it whatsoever???  In fact, I've always thought that this was not only immature of Cat, but also very inconsistent with the rest of her character, even in the books.)

In any event, given how relaxed (albeit, yes, hurt) Jon was about Cat's poor treatment of him, I find it hard to believe he harbored some grudge against Sansa for unspecified (and speculative, so far as I know) wrongs against him.

 

But, of course, these are all legitimates points of view.  I do believe there's enough ambiguity here to allow for multiple interpretations, so it's not like I'm claiming "I'm right, and I have proven it."

The trouble with little snippets is that you don't get a feel for the context of the entire passage, and GRRM is a master of conveying context via mirrored chapters and things like that.

Good points @Le Cygne!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/25/2017 at 0:34 PM, Le Cygne said:

He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had … yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.

That's interesting, seriously, but...Jon IS her half-brother.

Jon could choose to call Sansa his half-sister, and it would be equally accurate.

It kind of reminds me of the conversations Tyrion had with Jon at Winterfell (outside during the feast) and on the way to the Wall.  Wish I had the exact quotes handy, but Tyrion basically tells Jon, repeatedly, to embrace what he is, and wear it with pride.  At one point, I think Tyrion says "Look at me, and tell me what you see."  I believe Jon says "Is this a trick question?"  and Tyrion says  "You see a dwarf."  (I believe the episode is Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things.)

And "half-brother" is not even an insult.  Like I said, he IS her half-brother, just as Sansa IS his half-sister.  I really don't view this as evidence of Sansa treating Jon poorly, whether he was hyper-sensitive about it or not (which, apparently, he was)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/25/2017 at 0:58 PM, Le Cygne said:

"You'll find someone," Jon promised her. "King's Landing is a true city, a thousand times the size of Winterfell. Until you find a partner, watch how they fight in the yard. Run, and ride, make yourself strong. And whatever you do …"

Arya knew what was coming next. They said it together.

"… don't … tell … Sansa!"

This is interesting, but not necessarily anything more than natural sibling rivalry in my opinion.

It's an interesting quote, but I think it's a huge jump from that point to a belief that Jon and Sansa are so hostile and antagonistic toward each other that Sansa would be willing to betray Jon to the point that he unnecessarily dies on the field of battle.

But hey, who knows, maybe I'm about to be REALLY surprised.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never said that. I was disagreeing that there wasn't tension between them.

There's tension there between Arya and Sansa and between Jon and Sansa. Jon and Arya are super close, because they are a lot alike. Sansa is a bit of an outsider (GRRM himself said this, see the links above).

I think GRRM is definitely playing on the lost direwolf thing, and that Sandor (the Hound) replaced Lady. And he's a way in her story for Sansa to find her true self. And that will help resolve the conflicts with her siblings, too.

It's more of a growing into a better person sort of thing.

That's my take on it. I don't think we are meant to just ignore the tensions and bonds, I think they are there for a story reason. But I don't think it's going to play out like it is in the show at all. Much better story in the books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I never said that. I was disagreeing that there wasn't tension between them.

There's tension there between Arya and Sansa and between Jon and Sansa. Jon and Arya are super close, because they are a lot alike. Sansa is a bit of an outsider (GRRM himself said this, see the links above).

I think GRRM is definitely playing on the lost direwolf thing, and that Sandor (the Hound) replaced Lady. And he's a way in her story for Sansa to find her true self. And that will help resolve the conflicts with her siblings, too.

It's more of a growing into a better person sort of thing.

That's my take on it. I don't think we are meant to just ignore the tensions and bonds, I think they are there for a story reason. But I don't think it's going to play out like it is in the show at all. Much better story in the books.

Oops, sorry if I stepped on your toes, I didn't mean to.

I strongly agree that there's tension between Arya and Sansa (I think that's very clear, from quite a bit of information we've been given), but I'm not convinced it's there between Jon and Sansa.

Also, I think at one point this discussion related to whether Sansa purposely set Jon up to fail at the Battle of the Bastards, by allowing Jon's forces and Ramsay's forces to pretty much destroy each other (putting Jon's life at great risk in the process) then having the Knights of the Vale come in to easily clean up and dominate whoever was left.

I'm not saying you are claiming that is true, but in my opinion there's not enough evidence of "bad blood" between Jon and Sansa to rationally justify that, although, of course, who knows, Sansa may be going truly bad, in which case no rational explanation may be needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...