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Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

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On ‎29‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:20 PM, StepStark said:

...

But about the show, the atmosphere is one of their weakest sides. They rely almost exclusively on music, and while the music is not bad, it grows tiring very fast precisely because of overuse. Everything else is even worse. The sets are totally underused, and prime example is the Spanish location that served as Dorne. That's one of the most beautiful sites in the entire world, but in the show you practically never see any of it's beauty. And it's not surprising really, because D&D decided at the very beginning that shock value is their prime concern. And when shocking the audience is your main goal, then the "atmosphere" in important scenes actually has to be misleading, so that the audience is more surprised when the unexpected twist comes. That's why the Red Wedding in the show had nothing of the discomfort Cat was feeling in the books throughout the entire chapter. They wanted the Red Wedding to be as big a surprise as possible, so they deliberately sacrificed the distinct atmosphere from the source material.

Or just compare the two versions of Jon's murder. In the books, the atmosphere is so rich in every single segment of the chapter, and changes gradually with Jon's inner feelings. From starting determination to do the right thing, it changes to a subtle despair when Ramsay's letter arrives, and then explodes into pure anger and rage when Jon gets his swords, but then the brief confusion in the courtyard leads the way for the final horror. While in the show, once again, all of that is sacrificed for the pure shock value.

This doesn't make sense though. If you were to conduct poll around books with the most shocking moments the ASoIaF books would probably be No1. Throwing the book across the room in disgust has become almost a pretend (or real!) memory with many people. The shock moments are what people remember from the books more than anything, especially Ned and the Red Wedding. 'Don't get attached to any characters'. Ditto the show; it's not a failing for the show to have shocking moments. It's very in keeping with the books. Did you forget Brienne has someone eating her face in the books? Or the forced bestiality? Or the nipple removal? Or Jaime's hand chopped off? Or [insert any of dozens of other moments]?

I don't think you understand what really makes the show popular - take a look at some of the hundreds of GoT reaction videos out there. People are seriously invested in the characters and intensely focused on most of the scenes. That's why people find the scenes are shocking. You don't get that kind of investment and reaction just because 'the music isn't bad'.

What the do you mean by 'pure shock value' anyway? I don't see anyone closing a bathroom mirror and a ghost of a Japanese schoolgirl appearing in the reflection. Jon didn't just wake up and have his head cut off by Freddy Kruger. No, the shocking moments in the show are totally in keeping with the shocking moments in the books, for the most part built up slowly and executed effectively - just done in a way that the medium demands (e.g. they can't overlay the internal thoughts, but they can add music).

 

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1 hour ago, Daske said:

This doesn't make sense though.

The only thing here that doesn't make sense is you posting without thinking it through first. And you do that a lot and this is not our first rodeo of that kind. You misinterpret someone else's post and make a ridiculous assumption and then you write a lengthy "reply" to that assumption which never existed in the first place.

1 hour ago, Daske said:

The shock moments are what people remember from the books more than anything, especially Ned and the Red Wedding. 'Don't get attached to any characters'. Ditto the show; it's not a failing for the show to have shocking moments.

You wrote this for what exactly? What in my post lead you to think that you need to write this? This refers to what? This corresponds to what from my post? I'm dying to find out.

In fact, it looks like you had a nervous reaction to my post without even thinking about it, or maybe even reading it through. You assumed that I have something against shocking moments. Guess what, I don't. In fact, that's one of the reasons I like ASOIAF. Nothing in my post suggests that I have problem with shocking moments in principal. I have a problem with the way shock is achieved in GOT and I elaborated on it enough so that nobody thinks that I have problem with shock in principal. And yet you managed to misunderstand everything. Congratulations.

1 hour ago, Daske said:

I don't think you understand what really makes the show popular

Are you for real? You're the one misunderstanding things left and right, but you nevertheless find it necessary to lecture other people on something that's basically a common knowledge?

You really don't think that anyone with at least half of a brain can figure out what makes the show popular? Seriously?

2 hours ago, Daske said:

What the do you mean by 'pure shock value' anyway? I don't see anyone closing a bathroom mirror and a ghost of a Japanese schoolgirl appearing in the reflection.

A ghost of a Japanese schoolgirl may make more sense than Benjen appearing literally out of nowhere to save Jon. Or Bronn appearing also out of nowhere (though unlike Benjen at least he was involved in the battle up to that point) to save Jaime from Drogon in the last possible moment. Or armies constantly surprising other armies.

Ghosts are necessary in ghost movies. But in what genre is necessary to have something as ridiculous as Benjen arriving just in time to save Jon?

2 hours ago, Daske said:

Jon didn't just wake up and have his head cut off by Freddy Kruger.

Again, a very wrong example because Freddy Kruger operates in dreams, so if he was to harm Jon then Jon actually wouldn't wake up. Do you even understand what internal logic actually means? Freddy killing someone in a dream is following internal logic. Benjen appearing out of nowhere follows no logic at all.

2 hours ago, Daske said:

No, the shocking moments in the show are totally in keeping with the shocking moments in the books, for the most part built up slowly and executed effectively - just done in a way that the medium demands (e.g. they can't overlay the internal thoughts, but they can add music).

This is so disingenuous. Shocking moments in GOT can't compare even to cheap horror flicks like Freddy Kruger. Even ghosts of Japanese schoolgirls have more logic than GOT's shocking moments. But you think that D&D are keeping it with the books? Have you even read the books, or are you just one of those people who read summary on internet and pretend they've read the novels?

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On ‎29‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 7:42 PM, jcmontea said:

:agree:

 

By the same token then you can’t argue anything is better in the books that depends on inner thoughts of the characters since the show can’t do that and on anything you can do in a novel versus a screenplay.

To be intellectually consistent you are either analyzing the books and everhthing that comes with that and the show and everything that comes with that or just the very narrow portions where there is an actual overlap between two very different story telling mediums. 

Music is actually a big part of the experience of shows and movies. Take away music and they are just not as effective storytelling mediums. 

By this logic the Game of Thrones "End Theme" should be the ultimative highlight of the tv show.

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19 hours ago, StepStark said:

The only thing here that doesn't make sense is you posting without thinking it through first. And you do that a lot and this is not our first rodeo of that kind. You misinterpret someone else's post and make a ridiculous assumption and then you write a lengthy "reply" to that assumption which never existed in the first place.

You wrote this for what exactly? What in my post lead you to think that you need to write this? This refers to what? This corresponds to what from my post? I'm dying to find out.

In fact, it looks like you had a nervous reaction to my post without even thinking about it, or maybe even reading it through. You assumed that I have something against shocking moments. Guess what, I don't. In fact, that's one of the reasons I like ASOIAF. Nothing in my post suggests that I have problem with shocking moments in principal. I have a problem with the way shock is achieved in GOT and I elaborated on it enough so that nobody thinks that I have problem with shock in principal. And yet you managed to misunderstand everything. Congratulations.

Are you for real? You're the one misunderstanding things left and right, but you nevertheless find it necessary to lecture other people on something that's basically a common knowledge?

You really don't think that anyone with at least half of a brain can figure out what makes the show popular? Seriously?

A ghost of a Japanese schoolgirl may make more sense than Benjen appearing literally out of nowhere to save Jon. Or Bronn appearing also out of nowhere (though unlike Benjen at least he was involved in the battle up to that point) to save Jaime from Drogon in the last possible moment. Or armies constantly surprising other armies.

Ghosts are necessary in ghost movies. But in what genre is necessary to have something as ridiculous as Benjen arriving just in time to save Jon?

Again, a very wrong example because Freddy Kruger operates in dreams, so if he was to harm Jon then Jon actually wouldn't wake up. Do you even understand what internal logic actually means? Freddy killing someone in a dream is following internal logic. Benjen appearing out of nowhere follows no logic at all.

This is so disingenuous. Shocking moments in GOT can't compare even to cheap horror flicks like Freddy Kruger. Even ghosts of Japanese schoolgirls have more logic than GOT's shocking moments. But you think that D&D are keeping it with the books? Have you even read the books, or are you just one of those people who read summary on internet and pretend they've read the novels?

Well, you seem to spend a hell of a lot of time relentlessly bashing a show that isn't for you, so yes I disagree a lot with what you say. But whether I misunderstood you or not in this case maybe you need to tone it down a little. 

I will say this... if you think that Benjen showing up is 'pure shock value', then I think it's no wonder people don't understand what you say. It's convenient yes, surprising even, but shocking? I don't think that is an appropriate way to describe that kind of scene. So maybe I didn't answer to exactly what you meant, but no need to go off the rails.

What is 'pure shock value' is Brienne getting her face bitten off or Ramsay's bestiality rape, both of which pretty much come out of nowhere in the books and are not in the show. But I will assume you are happy with those. I've said this before but if either of those were not in the books and the show happened to invent them then I'm sure that you and many others would be screaming that they were put in for 'pure shock value'. And I think that is an appropriate way to use the term. I'm just asking for consistency in evaluating things.

And people are writing thesis on why the show is so popular, but you have it all worked out right? Anyone with half a brain...? Chill out! I bet fans can come up with a dozen different reasons, and they might all be correct. The reason I mentioned this was because I don't think it is possible to fully understand these high drama moments on the show if you aren't invested in the show. You're all in and most of the shlocky moments work brilliantly, or you're not and they fall completely flat. And yes that's a Catch-22 to some degree but that's the way of it. You either caught the ride or you didn't.

(By the way, my original post was 14 lines, that's 'lengthy'? Your reply was double that, hardly a crime either way!).

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6 hours ago, Daske said:

Well, you seem to spend a hell of a lot of time relentlessly bashing a show that isn't for you, so yes I disagree a lot with what you say. But whether I misunderstood you or not in this case maybe you need to tone it down a little. 

LOL!!! I need to tone it down? This is hilarious, really. Do I need to remind you that you were the one who introduced the arrogance and rudeness into this conversation. "I don't think you understand what really makes the show popular" - does that sound familiar to you?

If you're so sensitive about other people's replies, then maybe you shouldn't strawman and nitpick (you're doing both!) their posts.

6 hours ago, Daske said:

I will say this... if you think that Benjen showing up is 'pure shock value', then I think it's no wonder people don't understand what you say. It's convenient yes, surprising even, but shocking? I don't think that is an appropriate way to describe that kind of scene. So maybe I didn't answer to exactly what you meant, but no need to go off the rails.

That scene is all kinds of stupid. And you think you're going to make it look better if you nitpick my complaint? LOL!!! You know what, okay, let's say it wasn't shocking. Happy now? But it was still insanely stupid. Jon's uncle appears literally out of nowhere to save Jon and then die: it doesn't even matter if they wanted it to be shocking or something else, it's monumentally stupid.

6 hours ago, Daske said:

What is 'pure shock value' is Brienne getting her face bitten off or Ramsay's bestiality rape, both of which pretty much come out of nowhere in the books and are not in the show.

LOL!!! Out of nowhere? Are you saying that Brienne's face getting bitten off was supposed to be hinted at previously? That that moment was supposed to be built-up? And same for Ramsay's bestiality? Seriously?

I see that you're obviously confused so let me try to clear some things for you. Brienne getting bitten has to be "out of nowhere" because in good storytelling and real life things like that happen really happen "out of nowhere". It comes "out of nowhere" in the same way Jorry's death comes "out of nowhere" in the first novel, or like Tyrion losing his nose comes "out of nowhere" in the second novel, or like The Hound getting "fatally" wounded at the inn in the third novel. It is the nature of physical confrontations: they are nasty and sometimes people are really hurt beyond repair.

What matters is that the confrontation itself doesn't come "out of nowhere" and that it isn't resolved by some "out of nowhere" moment. Seeing that Brienne is going through confrontations pretty much in her entire storyline it's hardly "out of nowhere" that she's hurt beyond repair in one of those. And for what it's worth, at least she's bitten by Biter, who doesn't carry that name for nothing.

As for Ramsay, I'm not really sure what is your problem with that. Given how sadistic he is, it's hardly surprising that he's willing to humiliate his wife like that, but actually his bestiality is only hinted at and it's never described, so I really don't get what you're trying to say here.

Seeing how nitpicky you were about my examples of "out of nowhere", it's funny that you came up with these two which have nothing to do with what we discussed. "Out of nowhere" would be if Brienne was miraculously saved by someone whose whereabouts were completely unknown up to that moment. "Out of nowhere" would be if Jeyne Pool was saved in the last second by someone who was secretly hiding inside Winterfell all that time.

Do you understand the difference now?

6 hours ago, Daske said:

But I will assume you are happy with those. I've said this before but if either of those were not in the books and the show happened to invent them then I'm sure that you and many others would be screaming that they were put in for 'pure shock value'. And I think that is an appropriate way to use the term. I'm just asking for consistency in evaluating things.

Another strawman argument. It's not that something was invented for the show, but that is was monumentally stupid. If your'e such a big fanboy that you can't even realize what's wrong with Benjen saving Jon that way, that's your right of course, but mental gymnastics doesn't help your case.

And please spare me the reverse scenario. If Martin wrote a stupid story, and D&D adapted it into something brilliant, then I'd be celebrating D&D and bashing Martin. But that didn't happen. It's the opposite: Martin wrote a brilliant story, and D&D adapted it into something stupid.

6 hours ago, Daske said:

And people are writing thesis on why the show is so popular, but you have it all worked out right? Anyone with half a brain...? Chill out! I bet fans can come up with a dozen different reasons, and they might all be correct. The reason I mentioned this was because I don't think it is possible to fully understand these high drama moments on the show if you aren't invested in the show. You're all in and most of the shlocky moments work brilliantly, or you're not and they fall completely flat. And yes that's a Catch-22 to some degree but that's the way of it. You either caught the ride or you didn't.

I'm pretty sure that even religions require less faith than what you're saying here. If I allow myself to be saved by D&D, I'll be able to enjoy the show, right?

It's not Catch-22, it's the biggest fanboyism I've ever seen, honestly.

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On 03.11.2017 at 6:06 PM, StepStark said:

Benjen appearing out of nowhere follows no logic at all.

He didn't appeared out of nowhere. It's obvious that he was searching where Undead Army went. After he was saved (partially) by Children of the Forest, he was intercepting wights whenever he encountered them. So probably after he saved Bran and Meera, he went after NK. Majority of wights were near Eastwatch, but NK wasn't with them, he arrived there only near next morning. So probably Benjen was tracking path of NK and White Walkers to that lake. And he arrived there some time after NK, when the battle was already over, and Jon was the only one left behind. Either Benjen was searching Undead Army, and that's how he found Jon - pure luck, or Bran used his 3ER's power and told Benjen to go and save Jon (and where he will find him).

First option - went after NK, and accidentally found Jon - is more likely, than Bran sending him to sure death.

 

On main topic - I think that Jon and Arya in GOT are better than in books, especially Jon. Show version is more pure. In book Jon made Gilly to switch her baby with Mance's son. What for? - if someone will get to that baby, and kill it, let them kill Craster's son whose life is less important than life of wildlings 'prince'. And he was going to fight agains Ramsay, and used as an excuse Ramsay's threats, but his real motive was desire to get back Winterfell. In GOT producers removed that part about babyes, and Jon didn't deserted Night's Watch, even when Stannis promised to legitimize him as Stark, and make him Lord of Winterfell. But show-Jon stayed true to his vows, and stayed at Night's Watch. 

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

He didn't appeared out of nowhere. It's obvious that he was searching where Undead Army went. After he was saved (partially) by Children of the Forest, he was intercepting wights whenever he encountered them. So probably after he saved Bran and Meera, he went after NK. Majority of wights were near Eastwatch, but NK wasn't with them, he arrived there only near next morning. So probably Benjen was tracking path of NK and White Walkers to that lake. And he arrived there some time after NK, when the battle was already over, and Jon was the only one left behind. Either Benjen was searching Undead Army, and that's how he found Jon - pure luck, or Bran used his 3ER's power and told Benjen to go and save Jon (and where he will find him).

First option - went after NK, and accidentally found Jon - is more likely, than Bran sending him to sure death.

Many fanboys are actually more talented than D&D and when they try to "explain" plot holes from the show they usually come up with better stories than what was actually shown on screen. Sorry to say but you're definitely not one of them.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

On main topic - I think that Jon and Arya in GOT are better than in books, especially Jon. Show version is more pure. In book Jon made Gilly to switch her baby with Mance's son. What for? - if someone will get to that baby, and kill it, let them kill Craster's son whose life is less important than life of wildlings 'prince'. And he was going to fight agains Ramsay, and used as an excuse Ramsay's threats, but his real motive was desire to get back Winterfell. In GOT producers removed that part about babyes, and Jon didn't deserted Night's Watch, even when Stannis promised to legitimize him as Stark, and make him Lord of Winterfell. But show-Jon stayed true to his vows, and stayed at Night's Watch. 

I remember the time when talking about certain book meant that you actually read it and really tried to understand it.

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Well, as the shadowbinder very nicely put it: "Valar kessa sagon ȳdragotan ilagon naejot ondoso StepStark!" :)

I hope I got that more or less right. My Valyrian was never good and now it's a bit rusty too, but my copy-paste is up to date.

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On ‎30‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 7:23 PM, Red Tiger said:

Yes, they mostly kept out AFFC.

And ADWD.

If they had the entire series to base upon before they even started I wonder how else they'd have cut out.  The inner workings of the Iron Born and Dorne aren't necessary in either the books or the show.

The answer to the original question is now an obvious one.  The show will have an ending to the story.  The books will never be finished.  The pacing of the show is generally better than the pacing of the books too because they can cut out the book bloat where required.  The problem is now they're on their own their pacing is too fast and is as bad as the books are slow.....

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There are certain things I think the show did better than the books.

I think there are some scenes that worked well to build up the tension, such as Oberyn coming in to offer his services to Tyrion after he has requested a trial by battle; it worked better onscreen that way than how events went down in the books would have gone. Then there are character changes, where they are merged or given to other characters. Having Shireen develop a proper bond with Davos by teaching him to read really worked considering they left out Edric and Patchface, neither of whom have contributed much to the story yet. Same with Jaime and Brienne's journey; it was the right choice to leave Cleos Frey out because he ultimately didn't contribute much. That isn't to say I liked all mergers -- but when it worked, it worked well.

On 29/10/2017 at 6:58 PM, MinscS2 said:

Or the wrong kind of music.
Nothing makes a horror/intense scene scarier/more intense than some happy music. ;)
Just imagine the Field of Fire in S7E4 or the Wightraid in S7E6 with the Benny Hill Theme in the background instead.
 

 

Season 7 was such a rushed job with the plot going at 10,000 miles an hour and with characters teleporting across the continent in no time flat that this music would be fitting for a lot of scenes.

On 04/11/2017 at 9:00 PM, Megorova said:

He didn't appeared out of nowhere. It's obvious that he was searching where Undead Army went. After he was saved (partially) by Children of the Forest, he was intercepting wights whenever he encountered them.

2

When we the fans have to come up with explanations for why or how something happened that otherwise doesn't make sense, the show has failed. Like those daft chains...

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1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

And ADWD.

If they had the entire series to base upon before they even started I wonder how else they'd have cut out.  The inner workings of the Iron Born and Dorne aren't necessary in either the books or the show.

The answer to the original question is now an obvious one.  The show will have an ending to the story.  The books will never be finished.  The pacing of the show is generally better than the pacing of the books too because they can cut out the book bloat where required.  The problem is now they're on their own their pacing is too fast and is as bad as the books are slow.....

All that too.

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On 10/29/2017 at 2:58 PM, MinscS2 said:

Or the wrong kind of music.
Nothing makes a horror/intense scene scarier/more intense than some happy music. ;)
Just imagine the Field of Fire in S7E4 or the Wightraid in S7E6 with the Benny Hill Theme in the background instead.
 

 

There’s actually a couple videos that combine Game of Thrones with Benny Hill: One for the Red Wedding, one for the Purple Wedding, and one for the fight between Jaime, Bronn and the Sand Snakes. 

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On 11/4/2017 at 10:00 PM, Megorova said:

He didn't appeared out of nowhere. It's obvious that he was searching where Undead Army went. After he was saved (partially) by Children of the Forest, he was intercepting wights whenever he encountered them. So probably after he saved Bran and Meera, he went after NK. Majority of wights were near Eastwatch, but NK wasn't with them, he arrived there only near next morning. So probably Benjen was tracking path of NK and White Walkers to that lake. And he arrived there some time after NK, when the battle was already over, and Jon was the only one left behind. Either Benjen was searching Undead Army, and that's how he found Jon - pure luck, or Bran used his 3ER's power and told Benjen to go and save Jon (and where he will find him).

First option - went after NK, and accidentally found Jon - is more likely, than Bran sending him to sure death.

He appeared out of nowhere, just to save Jon and he decided not to save himself but to fight random wights, not the NK, as we all could see.

What he did after saving JOn was even worse than his appearance. In season 6 hesaid he'd fight for the living, but it's so sad he has to sacrifice himself for a wight mission that his nephew invented, (and that he only did for his lust for Dany, since he destroyed the mission when he didn't want to tell a lie to Cersei). Everything was so pathetic and badly written.

 

Quote

On main topic - I think that Jon and Arya in GOT are better than in books, especially Jon. Show version is more pure. In book Jon made Gilly to switch her baby with Mance's son. What for? - if someone will get to that baby, and kill it, let them kill Craster's son whose life is less important than life of wildlings 'prince'. And he was going to fight agains Ramsay, and used as an excuse Ramsay's threats, but his real motive was desire to get back Winterfell. In GOT producers removed that part about babyes, and Jon didn't deserted Night's Watch, even when Stannis promised to legitimize him as Stark, and make him Lord of Winterfell. But show-Jon stayed true to his vows, and stayed at Night's Watch. 

But in season 7 he is not very smart either, with the wight hunt for Cersei and later not being able to lie in front of Dany basically destroying the core of the suicidal mission (where Thoros died and almost all of them were about to die, well Vyserion died as well...:rolleyes:)

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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18 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He appeared out of nowhere, just to save Jon and he decided not to save himself but to fight random wights, not the NK, as we all could see. What he did after saving JOn was even worse than his appearance. In season 6 hesaid he'd fight for the living

Between him and NK was a whole army, so he had zero chances to get to him. Thus he chose to at least save Jon. Because he didn't had a lot of time left. He wasn't like Jon - revived and alive again, he was a zombie. If you didn't noticed, he was already rotting and decomposing. There was no way back for him. Also Wall's magic was preventing him from going to 7K, so he was stuck beyond The Wall. And there was no more living people there, only wights and Walkers. Because all wildlings already went south. And other people that were with Jon, also left on the dragon. So basically Jon was the last living person on that side of The Wall. Thus by saving him, Benjen did exactly what he said - he fought for the living. Last living person on that side of The Wall. And he isn't invincible, so he fought, he saved, he died. Mission accomplished.

Quote

, but it's so sad he has to sacrifice himself for a wight mission that his nephew invented, (and that he only did for his lust for Dany, since he destroyed the mission when he didn't want to tell a lie to Cersei). Everything was so pathetic and badly written.

Benjen was decomposing. Can you imagine what he felt? Physically, and psychologically, that was probably a terrible experience. He was already DEAD. So to finally cease to exist, furthermore managing in the process of it, to save one more life, was liberating and gratifying. Best death possible, in his circumstances.

And about Jon, I liked that he stayed true to his convictions, and didn't lied to Cersei. Because do you really believe that Cersei would have helped them to fight against NK? I'm million percents sure, that she still would have betrayed them. This way Jon at least didn't betrayed himself and Dany.

And he didn't do it for lust. He did it because he gave his word. He already vowed to Dany. And, unlike idiot Robb, he's a man of his word.

Personally I think that Robb deserved what happened to him.

Also I think that mission beyond The Wall wasn't a total failure. There they gained a very valuable piece of information - kill a Walker, and wights created by him will perish. And that info, is a key to win the war.

Circumstances under which they discovered this information were very very very VERY LUCKY. There was White Walker, with a small group of wights, furthermore wights created by him, and out of all of them there was only one, that was created by another Walker.

This information is more valuable than life of one dragon, or a dozen of people that died during that mission. So the mission was a success. Furthermore, even though Cersei is a lying b*tch, Jon managed to convince Jaime. And probably Jaime and his support will play a major role, either in a war against the dead, or later against Cersei. Probably he will tell to Jon and Dany about Cersei's betrayal, and about Golden Company, and about Birds Network (thus they will also know that they can't trust information that they were getting thru Varys). 

Jon didn't lied to Cersei, didn't pretended that he's willing to bend the knee to her. Even though he could have lied, and his people would't have revealed to Cersei, that it's a lie. Jaime also is a man of his word. He prommised that he will help. And he kept his word, because Jon proved that he is an honest man, worthy of trust and respect. By showing to Jaime, that he isn't the same as Robb, Jon gained his support.

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Between him and NK was a whole army, so he had zero chances to get to him. Thus he chose to at least save Jon. Because he didn't had a lot of time left. He wasn't like Jon - revived and alive again, he was a zombie. If you didn't noticed, he was already rotting and decomposing. There was no way back for him. Also Wall's magic was preventing him from going to 7K, so he was stuck beyond The Wall. And there was no more living people there, only wights and Walkers. Because all wildlings already went south. And other people that were with Jon, also left on the dragon. So basically Jon was the last living person on that side of The Wall. Thus by saving him, Benjen did exactly what he said - he fought for the living. Last living person on that side of The Wall. And he isn't invincible, so he fought, he saved, he died. Mission accomplished.

Benjen was decomposing. Can you imagine what he felt? Physically, and psychologically, that was probably a terrible experience. He was already DEAD. So to finally cease to exist, furthermore managing in the process of it, to save one more life, was liberating and gratifying. Best death possible, in his circumstances.

Benjen decomposing? I must have missed that.....: :o
 

Benjen was not a zombie, he was half alive, half-ww. The zombie is Jon, btw.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

And about Jon, I liked that he stayed true to his convictions, and didn't lied to Cersei. Because do you really believe that Cersei would have helped them to fight against NK? I'm million percents sure, that she still would have betrayed them. This way Jon at least didn't betrayed himself and Dany.

 

True to his convictions and destroying the mission because he is not capable of lying is a success?

WHo cares about what Cersei would have done, the whole point of the mission was that they were doing that to convince her, so they basically went on a suidical mission to convince her, and not being able to tell a little le in the last moment is DESTROYING THE AIM OF THE MISSION.

Of course that Cersei would not have believed him anyway, but that only points out how the plot of the wight mission was bad storytelling, and that Jon and Tyrion  had a bad idea with that mission. And JOn, is even dumber destroying it in the last moment. He is an awful leader.

 

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Benjen decomposing?

At least it looked like that. Just look at his face and hands, after he saved Bran and Meera, and a season later, when he saved Jon. He has rotten more in that time span.

Quote

Benjen was not a zombie, he was half alive, half-ww. The zombie is Jon, btw.

Not sure whether Benjen was even a bit alive, maybe he was, but Jon is definitely not a zombie, and is alive. His heart is beating, he's bleeding, eating, drinking, sleeping, f***ing, his breath is hot, he feels pain and cold. Thus not a zombie.

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

WHo cares about what Cersei would have done, the whole point of the mission was that they were doing that to convince her, so they basically went on a suidical mission to convince her, and not being able to tell a little le in the last moment is DESTROYING THE AIM OF THE MISSION.

Who cares about the aim of the mission, if Cersei eitherway wasn't going to help them, whether Jon has bended the knee or not. The point of a mission was to 1. bring evidence to Cersei, that will prove to her existence of Night's King, and 2. convince her to join forces. They succeeded with accomplishing first part. And second part was hopeless eitherway. It was Tyrion's suggestion that if they will bring evidence to Cersei, then she will help them. So the failure of second part is Tyrion's fault. Jon did what he was supposed to do - he went beyond The Wall, and brought a wight from there. The rest was Tyrion's job. Tyrion's failure.

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

Who cares about the aim of the mission, if Cersei eitherway wasn't going to help them, whether Jon has bended the knee or not. The point of a mission was to 1. bring evidence to Cersei, that will prove to her existence of Night's King, and 2. convince her to join forces. They succeeded with accomplishing first part. And second part was hopeless eitherway. It was Tyrion's suggestion that if they will bring evidence to Cersei, then she will help them. So the failure of second part is Tyrion's fault. Jon did what he was supposed to do - he went beyond The Wall, and brought a wight from there. The rest was Tyrion's job. Tyrion's failure.

do you realise that if they KNEW that the seoncd part was hopeless anyway, then it means that they are even more dumb?

Why would get on a suicidal mission if they KNEW that she'd not be convinced? JUst for the love of being circus performers?

Please....

THEY wanted to convince her. SO failing to convince her is a total failure. Jon was responsible of destroying the mission because in their magical world, they knew that she'd be convinced, but the diplomacy skills were responsible of failing at that, and we know that since we see the reactions of Tyrion and Dany, they are furious.

SO Tyrion is dumb for creating the plot, and Jon is even more dumb for destroying it while believeing in it.

Quote

At least it looked like that. Just look at his face and hands, after he saved Bran and Meera, and a season later, when he saved Jon. He has rotten more in that time span.

Not sure whether Benjen was even a bit alive, maybe he was, but Jon is definitely not a zombie, and is alive. His heart is beating, he's bleeding, eating, drinking, sleeping, f***ing, his breath is hot, he feels pain and cold. Thus not a zombie.

He is a fire wight, according to theauthor.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

do you realise that if they KNEW that the seoncd part was hopeless anyway, then it means that they are even more dumb?

Why would get on a suicidal mission if they KNEW that she'd not be convinced? JUst for the love of being circus performers?

Please....

THEY wanted to convince her. SO failing to convince her is a total failure. Jon was responsible of destroying the mission because in their magical world, they knew that she'd be convinced, but the diplomacy skills were responsible of failing at that, and we know that since we see the reactions of Tyrion and Dany, they are furious.

SO Tyrion is dumb for creating the plot, and Jon is even more dumb for destroying it while believeing in it.

He is a fire wight, according to theauthor.

Did he say that? He said that about Beric. Did he say that specifically about Jon? I suppose its possible he comes back in a different way

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Am I the only one who thinks that show Euron is way better than book Euron? An idiot like that is exactly the ally Cersei deserves. They are perfect for each other. The look on her face when he 'proposes' is priceless. You can see her backstabbing him already. 

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