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Is There Anything On The Show That You Think Is Better Than The Books?

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19 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Robb's story is continued through Lady Stoneheart. Besides that the whole Riverland's line is strongly connected to Robb and is still not over.

Well, that's one way of looking at it, I suppose, but I think a continuation of Robb's story through his wife and child would be a lot stronger than a continuation through his half-zombie mother who really hasn't done much and has been omitted from the show altogether, and the Riverlands sub-plot, which I think is not really specific to Robb nearly at all.

But hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming those things have nothing to do with Robb, just that I think both are a lot less than what we'd be getting as a continuation of his legacy if his wife and child continued to play a role.  At this point, not only are Talisa and the unborn child dead in the show, but I'm assuming Jeyne and the child won't have much, if anything, of a role to play in the books, either.

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6 hours ago, Cron said:

 At this point, not only are Talisa and the unborn child dead in the show, but I'm assuming Jeyne and the child won't have much, if anything, of a role to play in the books, either.

I guess so. Anyway it would take years for Robb's child to come of age and to act solo.

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On 8/23/2016 at 3:33 PM, Cron said:

Regarding the Quentyn sub-plot being something of a red herring in terms of importance, well, I certainly hear you, but I guess if GRRM is going to write stuff where it's believable that anyone can die, this is part of the price we pay.  Sometimes GRRM is going to devote a lot of pages  to someone who just fizzles out.

I don't have a problem with Quentyn failing per se, and I enjoyed his arc on its face (would have enjoyed it more if it had just been from Dany's PoV like Robb's was from Cat's).  My main issue is the total hash it made of the Dorne plot and in particular, the character of Doran Martell.  I think that this is the main reason as well, why ADWD was delayed so long.  The core of the Mereeneese knot.  GRRM has said in interviews that one of the big sticking points was who would arrive in Mereen when and under what circumstances.  I think in some versions, he probably wrote Quentyn as having much stronger footing - like, perhaps he has enough ships to move her army and Dragons...  or he arrives before Xaro makes his offer about the ships, and before she's engaged to Hizdar.  Or even that he's a better negotiator, and he works with her to come up with a plan.

 Because he would like us to think Dany is a (at least somewhat) reasonable person - and a heroic figure, generally speaking, he discarded these ideas.  Dany had to be engaged to / married to Hizdar first, so that she had a 100% solid reason to say no to Quentyn's proposal (though honestly she should probably say no anyway).  Dany had to have no reasonable way to get the majority of her troops or her dragons out of Mereen.  And ultimately Quentyn had to completely fail to bring her anything useful enough to make him a reasonable ally.  So, Quentyn therefore had to come entirely unprepared.  This makes Doran look foolish, IMO.  Especially because Quentyn/Daenerys was supposedly his trump card, holding together the crumbling foundations of Dornish politics.  

Then again failing to properly prepare his children is a big part of Arianne's AFFC story as well.  This again, IMO, was a narrative "trick" played by GRRM.  He wanted a "big shocker" at the end of the book (Quentyn reveal), thus Arianne couldn't know anything about "The Plan".  But of course, this means that Doran (the master planner) is the kind of father that does not trust his heir, nor does he train her, but instead leaves her with the impression she's going to be passed over.  Doran Martell is basically a cardboard, plot device-y kind of character.  His actions don't make much sense other than so we can be surprised by the plot developments.  

I think the show runners realized this, and that is why Doran Martell in the show is a much simpler character.  He is a good man who genuinely desires peace.  He doesn't want to be the kind of man he hates, who would kill children.  And, unfortunately, such a man - no matter how clever - can often be a victim of stronger political winds.  Dorne in general was not willing to accept a peace under these circumstances, and in particular his nieces and his brother's lover believed themselves to be superior and more "worthy" of Nymeria's legacy.  

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Consider Robb Stark.  We spent a lot of pages following his story from Ned's and Cat's POVs, but in the end...dead end.  Despite the many, many pages where he appeared "on stage," and despite the fact that he rose so high that he was at one point one of only about 5 people in main contention for power, his story fizzled out, and basically went nowhere.  In fact, for a while I thought Robb's "story" would be continued through his child, but NOPE.  In the books, Jeyne and the child have been non-factors for a LONG time, and in the show it's even worse, Talisa and the child are both dead.

Well, Robb was never a PoV character - Robb's story, ultimately, is Catelyn's story.  Catelyn's story (along with Ned's) was about the fall of House Stark, which is a necessary piece to get to the end game.  But again I don't mind a character failing - it's people acting stupidly (especially when we are supposed to think they are brilliant schemers) that gets to me. 

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3 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I always hoped to see Darkstar in the show, the book readers in this board like him a lot, the most humorous threads are about him :D

After seeing the new Star Wars I think of Dorkstar as very similar to Kylo Ren.  I could see Ren saying he is "of the night" lol.  

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3 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

After seeing the new Star Wars I think of Dorkstar as very similar to Kylo Ren.  I could see Ren saying he is "of the night" lol.  

Yes, "of the night", I forgot this :D, Dorkstar : "the most dangerous man in Westeros"

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4 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I guess so. Anyway it would take years for Robb's child to come of age and to act solo.

Great point, you're right about Robb's child, of course.

I guess for me, it's maybe just a sentimental thing, knowing that Robb's line lived on, and possibly setting up a character for way down the road, maybe even in a sequel or spin-off.

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On 8/25/2016 at 0:01 AM, Cron said:

Well, that's one way of looking at it, I suppose, but I think a continuation of Robb's story through his wife and child would be a lot stronger than a continuation through his half-zombie mother who really hasn't done much and has been omitted from the show altogether, and the Riverlands sub-plot, which I think is not really specific to Robb nearly at all.

But hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming those things have nothing to do with Robb, just that I think both are a lot less than what we'd be getting as a continuation of his legacy if his wife and child continued to play a role.  At this point, not only are Talisa and the unborn child dead in the show, but I'm assuming Jeyne and the child won't have much, if anything, of a role to play in the books, either.

Robb's child doesn't exist in the books either.

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4 hours ago, illinifan said:

Robb's child doesn't exist in the books either.

Well, it's been about 5 years since I last read the books, but I thought the last time we saw Jeyne Westerling in the books she was still alive and still pregnant.

Did I get confused?

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Yes, you did.

Jeyne has so far not turned out pregnant since her mother secretly fed her moon tea.

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The scene between Robert and Cersei was tremendous in the character development of both. I think some individual characters like Bronn, Osha, Grey Worm, etc were done better. I'm fine with a lot of what they cut. As of now Aegon and LSH seem to be very bump in the road characters that probably should have stayed dead. I could see one, but not both, being more significant later on, but for now I'm fine streamlining it. They did a much better job of showing the threat of the Others/WW. And they did a better job of not neglecting major characters for long periods of time, than Martin did in the last two books. A season without Jon, Dany, and Tyrion would have killed the show. I also think they found much simpler solutions than GRRM to get out of the mess that was Mereen. Dorne still sucked in both mediums. But Jamie trying to rescue his daughter atleast was more focused on the main plot than whatever the fuck Arianne was hoping to accomplish with her queenmaker plot. Better ways to do both, but I'll take the simple direct way over the convoluted way if they are both going to be subpar.

The books are better in their intricacies . Lots of little notes that build up to the bigger ones and play off of other parallels in the narrative. When it works it's far more rewarding. R+L=J is better because of how well set up it is and how pivotal it is to Ned. Something you can't execute in the show because you can't have internal monologues and people referencing Rheagar, Lyanna, or the Rebellion every scene. The books feel more like a history of an event in history that shows the various players. While the show feels more like character plot maps like most shows.

Also the biggest issue is that it's harder in the show to  maintain a characters momentum when the plot is doormant. Jamie and Tyrion for example. You can get away with it in the books when you can show what they are thinking and how current actions build on their character. Jamie needed a jarring course correction this season.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, it's been about 5 years since I last read the books, but I thought the last time we saw Jeyne Westerling in the books she was still alive and still pregnant.

Did I get confused?

There is a theory out there that Jeyne secretly left the Riverrun with Blackfish because she was pregnant and the Westerlings were passing off the younger sister as Jeyne.  It is based on difference between Catelyn's and Jaime's observations about Jeyne's hips.  However, this was apparently just a typo - not a clue.  

I certainly hope that we are done with that milquetoast character.  There are so many more interesting characters to spend time with than a Robb's personality free, cardboard cutout wife.

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4 hours ago, illinifan said:

There is a theory out there that Jeyne secretly left the Riverrun with Blackfish because she was pregnant and the Westerlings were passing off the younger sister as Jeyne.  It is based on difference between Catelyn's and Jaime's observations about Jeyne's hips.  However, this was apparently just a typo - not a clue.  

I certainly hope that we are done with that milquetoast character.  There are so many more interesting characters to spend time with than a Robb's personality free, cardboard cutout wife.

Hmmmm...interesing food for thought, but I"m not sure the existence of such a "theory" means Robb's child no longer exists in the books.

Maybe, though, I suppose.  Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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6 hours ago, She-Wolf of Winterfell said:

I like Jorah and Tywin more in the show. Charles Dance is amazing( those Harrenhal scenes were gold) and Iain gave a more sentimental side to Jorah which I prefer. Actually, most of the actors in this show are what still keeps me interested in this show.

It was a good idea to cut a bit of the Brienne story in AFFC but I didn't like that they also cut the parts which I liked the most in that story.( Quiet Isle and LS)

For the rest I don't really like any of these changes made in the show.

 

I agree on that. I much more prefer Jorah's version in the show.

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6 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I agree on that. I much more prefer Jorah's version in the show.

Yeah, Jorah has his strong points as a character, but i've always thought it's kind of pathetic how he moons over and chases after Dany.

Does he honestly believe he has any chance with her???   She knows about his "feelings" towards her, she has known it for a while, and he knows that she knows, it's now very open between them, and yet I don't know how it could be any more crystal clear that she has no romantic interest in him.

I mean, my goodness, how long is he going to follow her around like a lost puppy when it seems clear as a bell to me that nothing is ever going to happen between them?  When does the whole thing just become totally sad and pathetic?  It's fine that he's a loyal knight of hers, but if I were Jorah's friend I'd tell him bluntly "Look, buddy, find another girl, okay?  Don't waste your life yearning over someone you are never going to have, cuz that ain't happening between you and Dany, ever."

Indeed, I actually think Daario tried to give Jorah some "brutal, friendly honesty" when they were travelling together in Season 6 to rescue Dany from the Dothraki, and Daario was making cracks about it.  Did any of that penetrate Jorah's brain? Doubt it.

 

 

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For me though I'm not sure we need such directly continuations of Cat and Robb's stories, on the "villians" side we obviously get more of Tywin, the Boltons and the Freys but perhaps more importantly there is obviously a dramatic follow up with John, Sansa and Ayra. I would say as well that Cat's story is an obvious parallel to Cersei's.

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Tywin, while reeding the book i didn't really think that much of him. On the show, i admired him.

And numerous others, but Tywin was just my favorite. Seriously the only thing i actually dislike about the tv show is the portrayal of the sand snaked and anything dorne related, and some over the top sam scenes.

Other then that the tv show is spot on, and in some cases like mentioned in this thread did better then its book counterpart.

 

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12 hours ago, Cron said:

Yeah, Jorah has his strong points as a character, but i've always thought it's kind of pathetic how he moons over and chases after Dany.

Does he honestly believe he has any chance with her???   She knows about his "feelings" towards her, she has known it for a while, and he knows that she knows, it's now very open between them, and yet I don't know how it could be any more crystal clear that she has no romantic interest in him.

I mean, my goodness, how long is he going to follow her around like a lost puppy when it seems clear as a bell to me that nothing is ever going to happen between them?  When does the whole thing just become totally sad and pathetic?  It's fine that he's a loyal knight of hers, but if I were Jorah's friend I'd tell him bluntly "Look, buddy, find another girl, okay?  Don't waste your life yearning over someone you are never going to have, cuz that ain't happening between you and Dany, ever."

Indeed, I actually think Daario tried to give Jorah some "brutal, friendly honesty" when they were travelling together in Season 6 to rescue Dany from the Dothraki, and Daario was making cracks about it.  Did any of that penetrate Jorah's brain? Doubt it.

 

 

Well, after what she said to Daario, anything vould happen. I thought she really loved him, and then nothing. Whereas she commands Jorah to find a cure and return to her. Who knows.

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22 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Well, after what she said to Daario, anything vould happen. I thought she really loved him, and then nothing. Whereas she commands Jorah to find a cure and return to her. Who knows.

I believe Dany does love Daario.  They are soul mates, it's just that she mistakenly allows her warped sense of duty to interrupt their love.

But I'm not worried, I believe there's NO WAY Daario is staying in Essos.  He's going to follow Dany to Westeros whether she likes it or not, and help her solidify her claim to the throne, and I think eventually she'll realize she really can't do any better than him.

I think she commands Jorah to return to her just cuz she feels sorry for him.  It's really kind of sad and pathetic.  I believe there is zero chance Jorah is going to end up with Dany, and everyone seems to know it except him.

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