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Lost Melnibonean

Daenerys's Fate and the Fire She Must Light to Love

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31 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

We learned many things what had no impact on the plot. Not every single word has to mean something. We had Chett's backstory, tyroshi mercenaries who betrayed tywin in first novel, pointless brienne journey to whispers and some more.

Chett was a POV, he got to have some back story, George actually admitted he forgot about the Tyroshi sellsword, and Brienne traveling to the Whispers put an end to the story of the Brave Companions (whether that was important is up to debate) and also established the fierce loyalty of the Cracklaw Point people to House Targaryen (which is likely to pay off when Aegon or Dany take KL).

31 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Does this proof anything? If Shireen was infectious, Selyse would contract greyscale simply by being near her.

I did not say she was infectious right now. I said that her sickness can return and that she would then be able to infect people, especially if being infectious again is the first her of her new symptoms.

31 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Val knows nothing about medicine. She isn't omniscient. Wildlings are backward and superstitious. And Shireen lived in damp place for ten years - Dragonstone. Wildlings kill every child who contracted greyscale, there were no children who survived greyscale beyond the wall. There is no proof that greyscale can reappear.

Shireen (and the Balon's brother, who also caught greyscale) both lived at damp places, explaining how they caught the disease. The maesters can handle it, apparently, but it is no complete healing.

And while I agree that the wildlings are superstitious and not exactly very reliable it is not just Val on that matter. ADwD spends a lot of time on introducing the various types of greyscale. George doesn't dwell on the bloody flux in the same manner. This is an important plot point and I'm pretty sure Shireen is as much important in that field as Jon Connington.

George told us in a pre-Dance interview that disease would play a huge role in the story to come yet neither the Pale Mare nor greyscale did as of yet deliver. The Pale Mare might yet kill somebody important in Slaver's Bay (or really greatly decimate the population there) while greyscale (or rather the grey plague) has yet to show its ugly face in the story. We can be pretty sure that this is going to happen and it would be more fun if there would be an epidemic all over the place instead of just down in the South.

Things are going to get much worse in this story. We are not reading some children's book or fairy-tale. Right now Stannis is burning people who turned cannibal. Soon enough Stannis and the other people in the North will feed on the flesh of the slain. Mark my words. The coming winter will be horrible.

16 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Perhaps the intention was not to lay the groundwork for how the Free Folk might react to greyscale in general, but rather to lay the groundwork for how they will act towards Shirreen in future. Meaning establish a motivation for them to go along with her burning.

Stannis is not going to ask the opinion of the free folk when he is burning his daughter. And neither would Mel, or anybody, really. But then, if Mel actually intended to sacrifice people she would turn to the wildlings first. Gerrick Kingsblood, his three daughters, Mance's fake son, Jon Snow, Ser Axell, Selyse - all those people are likelier candidates than Stannis' only child if we go with Melisandre sacrificing people.

You don't jump to the most controversial potential sacrifice at once. Back on Dragonstone Mel and Selyse pushed for the sacrifice of Edric Storm, not Shireen Baratheon. And the situation back then was pretty much as hopeless as it might be now. The stakes have to be raised considerably before anybody would consider sacrificing the only child of the king.

I don't think Shireen will die from her greyscale - in fact, if the sickness should return in the very near future both Selyse and Mel should do everything in their power to hush it up while Stannis is not back from his war because she is his only heir. And we should keep in mind that fire magic can heal (or rather magically burn away) sicknesses. Mel could do with Shireen what Moqorro did with Victarion.

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I have a recollection - no more than that so can't quote chapter and verse - that GRRM said something about disease playing a big part in the books to come, but there was nothing specific as to whether it was the inevitable pestilence that rhymes with war or whether it was referencing greyscale.

Yeah, that was before ADwD came out (see above).

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12 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Why pray tell is Stannis' daughter gonna be at Shadow Tower?

She probably won't. But it is the closest Tower to her current location that I can think of. Anyway, the Great Stone Beast taking wing from a smoking tower, breathing Shadow Fire is the one part of the prophecy that remains tantalizingly obscure. So any guess is worth a shot at this point. It has for some time been associated with the Grey Plague as a possible theory, and usually with Jon Connington spreading it in some way.

The above merely tries to supplant Shireen into that theory. But as I said, it is spitballing. As good a guess as any other at this point.

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The bloody flux could, much more prosaically, be the reasons why Victarion's ironborn ships cannot stay at Meereen to wait in hope of Dany's return if she is not there when they arrive. They will come - fight against the Yunkish / Ghiscari besiegers, who will be caught between two foes - Victarion will have the horn blown - *one* dragon will answer it, probably Rhaegal (stated as flying over near the fleets, in the reading of the Tyrion preview chapter) - but the ironborn and the Meereeneese defenders will not be friends with each other, especially if Victarion comes face to face with Barristan, who knows him for what he is, namely a pirate. And especially not if the dragon horn is blown.

I think Barristan will be killed by the stolen dragon - we don't as yet know whether it obeys Euron ultimately, or Victarion, although Victarion may *believe* for now that it is him (and, I think, be mistaken). But Victarion and his men are not cut out for taking a walled city whose defenders retreat inside, nor do they know how to use or build the siege towers that Barristan and his men have been forced out of the walls to destroy - not because they were throwing rocks or offering any damage to the walls (the defenders could safely sit tight against that), but because they were hurling corpses over the walls to spread plague inside the city.

Thus... Barristan probably dead, sellsword companies scattered or in confusion, Victarion has *one* dragon, and the dragon might be his only way to breach the walls of the city, BUT, there is plague in the city, he will not want to remain and his own men will rebel if he tries, thus Victarion and his ships leave without Daenerys. On the way out, they run into the Volantis armada. Floating hulks of wood and cloth sails... easy prey for a dragon: Volantis's armada never reaches Meereen at all. Tyrion manages to survive everything and meets the now-injured dragon Viserion and nurses him back to health (in the preview Tyrion chapter it was noted that Viserion had quit the battle: and Tyrion, in an Obviously Foreshadowing Moment, was seen to clean up a blood-spattered white dragon cyvasse piece. At some point Tyrion's knack for looking after injured beasts is going to come very much in handy, as is his ability to improvise a saddle suitable for himself.

Daenerys, returning with a Dothraki horde... has brought them to a city with no exit (except back the way they came), no working ships (but a whole load of sunken, smashed-up hulks) and no knowledge of how to repair or rebuild them, nor the time or materials to do so, its surrounding farming hinterland devastated by war and a full-scale epidemic of the bloody flux breaking out inside the walls. No food, no way out, starvation and plague, and the Dothraki having to loot whatever's left (including nearby Yunkai, since Astapor is already effectively destroyed) in the futile hope of finding enough food to track back to the Dothraki plains along a road they will have already looted everything from - Daenerys will indeed lead the greatest Dothraki horde of all, to the ends of the world - the ends of *their* world, to destruction and death, and bring destruction to all she touches.

Such is the way of the dragon.

And with nothing left in Meereen, no ships to carry troops, and learning from Tyrion that a dragon has been stolen... she'll be off after her "child", ALONE on Drogon's back, one woman and one dragon versus one continent, on a foolhardy race to Westeros, not even necessarily to claim the crown but to "save" Rhaegal from his ironborn master, or "save" Westeros from Rhaegal... Leaving Tyrion behind with the still-injured Viserion, and Archmaester Marwyn (currently heading eastwards by ship having just left Oldtown) arriving too late to meet anybody but Tyrion... although he may be able to carry Viserion and Tyrion part-way back until Viserion is fit to fly again.

In the meantime I think the false dragon (Aegon, who is no true Targaryen though he may be a Blackfyre) will have been killed by whichever ironborn lord has gained control of Rhaegal, most likely Euron. (Again, Cyvasse Game foreshadowing: "You should have moved your dragon to the centre of the action, she was too far away to save you" - Daenerys has no good reason to fight Aegon even if he disputes her claim to the throne, since she could have had the option of marrying him: but Aegon has come without her, on a bluff, he has NO dragon at all, and will be killed before "his" true dragon arrives.) I believe Aegon's main function in the story - plus the death of Quentyn Martell, killed by a dragon (also serving as the person who freed two dragons to serve a master other than Dany) - will mainly serve to turn Dorne *against* Daenerys, especially if Aegon marries Arianne and both are killed by a dragon.

Edited by JLE

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3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Perhaps the intention was not to lay the groundwork for how the Free Folk might react to greyscale in general, but rather to lay the groundwork for how they will act towards Shirreen in future. Meaning establish a motivation for them to go along with her burning.

That's what I am thinking. 

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10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's what I am thinking. 

But why not just going with the ridiculous idea of a girl queen? The wildlings only follow strength. The wildlings are not likely to play any role in the death of Shireen if she is going to be a sacrifice. That would be done by Stannis' people and they still are more than enough to control the King's Tower.

Val established that the wildlings might actually kill Shireen themselves because they see her as an unclean abomination. This is far worse than they just doing nothing when she is going to be kill. It means actively want her dead.

One could even wonder whether they would consider an unclean child a proper blood sacrifice in some spell.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But why not just going with the ridiculous idea of a girl queen? The wildlings only follow strength. The wildlings are not likely to play any role in the death of Shireen if she is going to be a sacrifice. That would be done by Stannis' people and they still are more than enough to control the King's Tower.

Val established that the wildlings might actually kill Shireen themselves because they see her as an unclean abomination. This is far worse than they just doing nothing when she is going to be kill. It means actively want her dead.

One could even wonder whether they would consider an unclean child a proper blood sacrifice in some spell.

No strong predictions for this arc from me, I'm afraid. I'm just suggesting some options. The whole Shireen burning thing is a bit weird in the context of the books in any case. The strongest motivation by far is for Melisandre to burn her just like she wanted  to burn Edrick, Mance and Mance's child.

Given the situation at the Wall, where the wildlings may now be in total control, outnumbering the King's Men by ten to one, Martin may just want to lay the foundation for them not interfering when Melisandre decides to burn Shireen. Something they may have done if it was another random child being given to the flame, just out of hate of the Red Woman's religion.

Anyway, or maybe it is nothing related to the burning plot whatsoever. Who knows at this point.

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2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

No strong predictions for this arc from me, I'm afraid. I'm just suggesting some options. The whole Shireen burning thing is a bit weird in the context of the books in any case. The strongest motivation by far is for Melisandre to burn her just like she wanted  to burn Edrick, Mance and Mance's child.

Given the situation at the Wall, where the wildlings may now be in total control, outnumbering the King's Men by ten to one, Martin may just want to lay the foundation for them not interfering when Melisandre decides to burn Shireen. Something they may have done if it was another random child being given to the flame, just out of hate of the Red Woman's religion.

Anyway, or maybe it is nothing related to the burning plot whatsoever. Who knows at this point.

I think George already confirmed on his NAB that Melisandre is not going to burn Shireen in the future. He said he has yet to write the scene of Shireen's death.

And actually, Jon being paranoid that Mel wants to burn Aemon or Mance's child doesn't make it true. Mel didn't give any impression that she planned to burn another person in the near future, not to mention Mance's son. She even didn't seem to be the person behind Rattleshirt's burning considering she actually liked Jon ending his torture due to the magical connection they had. Could very well be Stannis insisted on the execution method.

The important point about this thing still is that it is greyscale and its properties being discussed. Val insists that Shireen is not healthy. If it was just superstition they could have introduced that the wildlings simply despise cripples or disfigured as weaklings/not deserving of life. Instead Val indicates that Shireen might still be still dangerous and Jon later realizing that Selyse is not kissing Shireen's disfigured cheek figures into that as well. This is actually a plot point in itself.

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I feel Val will play an important role in killing Shireen. Otherwise why bother to let her say things about grey scale? 

and Val is likely going to die at some point (after having sex with Jon). She needs to be gone to make Jon completely available for Dany. maybe her death is related to her action on Shireen. 

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On 12.12.2016 at 11:43 AM, Lord Varys said:

I think George already confirmed on his NAB that Melisandre is not going to burn Shireen in the future. [snip]

On the contrary. 1:35: It was GRRM who told Benioff & Weiss about this planned scene.

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2 minutes ago, Amris said:

On the contrary. 1:35: It was GRRM who told Benioff & Weiss about this planned scene.

I know that video. But I wasn't referring to that.

Spoiler

 

It also confirms that Stannis will be the one to make the decision to burn Shireen, not Melisandre. That was my point. I was arguing against the idea that Melisandre would make the decision on her own with Stannis believed to be dead as many people suggest. George's idea is that a father sacrifices his only child and heir for some higher purpose. This only works if it is Stannis, not Melisandre (and certainly not Selyse whose sole redeeming quality in the books is that she loves her only child).

George actually commented on his NAB on that scene after the episode aired, stating that he has yet to write that scene meaning that we'll get a version of the travesty the show gave us but set in a much more believable context. It will take place much later in the story when the situation is much more dire.

In what sane world does a father kill his only child to change the weather in some mundane battle against a mortal enemy? It doesn't make any sense at all. Compare the whole thing to Theon 1. Stannis is almost happily looking forward to the fight against the Boltons. He didn't even sacrifice those cannibals because he believed it would make a difference. It was a way to reinforce discipline and to punish people who deserved to die.

This kind of thing doesn't make him desperate. He still wants Shireen to succeed him on the Iron Throne should he die in battle.

But in a setting involving the Others and true winter where the survival of all mankind is at stake killing your only child no longer looks as ridiculous as it does in the show. It might be actually a mercy killing, at least in part. Keep in mind that that's what the First Men also routinely did during the Long Night when they felt there was no hope left. Stannis will be in a situation where he will have to choose between the hope that Shireen's sacrifice will help with the fight against the Others and certain defeat. 

And since we get talk about Stannis breaking before he is going to bend I'm pretty sure this whole thing will break him, just as it did in the show. He was just a dead man walking thereafter.

 

 

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Um, getting back to Daenerys...

Daenerys fans take heart! Not only is Dragonstone, where the wee dragonlet was born, the place of smoke and salt, but so was Braavos, where the young princess was raised...

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That night she left the House of Black and White. A long iron knife rode on her right hip, hidden by her cloak, a patched and faded thing of the sort an orphan might wear. Her shoes pinched her toes and her tunic was so threadbare that the wind cut right through it. But Braavos lay before her. The night air smelled of smoke and salt and fish. The canals were crooked, the alleys crookeder. Men gave her curious looks as she went past, and beggar children called out words she could not understand. Before long she was completely lost.

Arya II, Feast 22

Of course, we have to hope that fish smell wasn't herring...

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On December 10, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That would had been great!

 

 

There is still time for it to happen, JQC... Jon Connington will give it to her, and thereby secure (f/r)Aegon's claim. 

You heard it here first. :commie:

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Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. There would have been a sixth, but the Usurper’s dogs had murdered her brother’s son when he was still a babe at the breast. If he had lived, I might have married him.

Daenerys I, Dance 2 (emphasis in the original)

Perhaps she will wed "Aegon" after all. 

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As to the three mounts she must ride, "one to bed and one dread and one to love," most of us suspect the first is her silver with Drogo to the grassy place beside a small stream, and that the second is Drogo’s namesake Drogon. Well, you know what? The third one just might be the smoky stallion Daenerys will ride to join her sun-and-stars in the Night Lands. 

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Daenerys will wed Aegon...

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Drogo's braid was black as midnight and heavy with scented oil, hung with tiny bells that rang softly as he moved. It swung well past his belt, below even his buttocks, the end of it brushing against the back of his thighs.

"You see how long it is?" Viserys said. "When Dothraki are defeated in combat, they cut off their braids in disgrace, so the world will know their shame. Khal Drogo has never lost a fight. He is Aegon the Dragonlord come again, and you will be his queen."

Daenerys I, Game 3

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5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Daenerys will wed Aegon...

Daenerys I, Game 3

I was never sure who Dany would marry, but I can see this now because it seems to be a way to bring the Targaryens and Blackfyre wound to heal. 

Possibly, because who knows how long Aegon will last? 

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I've just thought a little bit about Dany's future husbands:

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Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

The first is clearly a vision of her first night with Drogo. The second one is rather obscure (possibly a Greyjoy - Euron or Victarion - or perhaps Tyrion, if you see it in a very rather far-fetched metaphorical way) but the third one is clearly Jon Snow. And he seems the one she is going to like a lot, considering how well he smells.

Aegon is the cloth dragon in the preceding vision, and thus a lie she has to slay. She is not going to marry a lie. And she will make the mummer's dragon connection long before she reaches Westeros. Tyrion will tell her about Aegon and Varys and Illyrio, and that a hidden dragon prince originally intended to go to her, accompanied by the griffin lord Jon Connington.

Now, there is a chance that she has even more husbands, considering that Hizdahr doesn't show up in the bride of fire section of the visions, but if so then I don't think that guy will be Aegon.

Care to comment?

By the way, inclined to do some in-depth controversial layout of the future of the series some time before TWoW comes out? Then we have a great resource to tell each other 'I told you so back then' when we know what actually happens. Could also be entertaining.

By the way: Dany is Aegon the Conqueror come again. Visenya was his champion, just as Jon Snow might become hers.

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20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I've just thought a little bit about Dany's future husbands:

The first is clearly a vision of her first night with Drogo. The second one is rather obscure (possibly a Greyjoy - Euron or Victarion - or perhaps Tyrion, if you see it in a very rather far-fetched metaphorical way) but the third one is clearly Jon Snow. And he seems the one she is going to like a lot, considering how well he smells.

Well, she may dig the way Jon smells, but Jon digs the way Satin smells. :P

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon is the cloth dragon in the preceding vision, and thus a lie she has to slay. She is not going to marry a lie. And she will make the mummer's dragon connection long before she reaches Westeros. Tyrion will tell her about Aegon and Varys and Illyrio, and that a hidden dragon prince originally intended to go to her, accompanied by the griffin lord Jon Connington.

I think Tyrion hedges his bets between Daenerys and Aegon...

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Haldon Halfmaester had spoken of using the red priest to Young Griff's advantage, Tyrion recalled. Now that he had seen and heard the man himself, that struck him as a very bad idea. He hoped that Griff had better sense. Some allies are more dangerous than enemies. But Lord Connington will need to puzzle that one out for himself. I am like to be a head on a spike. The priest was pointing at the Black Wall behind the temple, gesturing up at its parapets, where a handful of armored guardsmen stood gazing down.

"What is he saying?" Tyrion asked the knight.

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"

The hairs on the back of Tyrion's neck began to prickle. Prince Aegon will find no friend here. The red priest spoke of ancient prophecy, a prophecy that foretold the coming of a hero to deliver the world from darkness. One hero. Not two. Daenerys has dragons, Aegon does not. The dwarf did not need to be a prophet himself to foresee how Benerro and his followers might react to a second Targaryen. Griff will see that too, surely, he thought, surprised to find how much he cared.

Tyrion VII, Dance 27

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On the river Tyrion had to endure Griff, but there had at least been the mystery of the captain's true identity to divert him and the more congenial companionship of the rest of the poleboat's little company.

Tyrion VIII, Dance 33

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An empire built on blood and fire. The Valyrians reaped the seed they had sown. "Does our captain mean to test the curse?"

"Our captain would prefer to be fifty leagues farther out to sea, well away from that accursed shore, but I have commanded him to steer the shortest course. Others seek Daenerys too."

Griff, with his young prince. Could all that talk of the Golden Company sailing west have been a feint? Tyrion considered saying something, then thought better. It seemed to him that the prophecy that drove the red priests had room for just one hero. A second Targaryen would only serve to confuse them.

Tyrion VIII, Dance 33

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The deck was moving under him, and for half a heartbeat he was so confused he thought he was back on the Shy Maid. A whiff of pigshit brought him to his senses. The Sorrows were behind him, half a world away, and the joys of that time as well. He remembered how sweet Le-more had looked after her morning swims, with beads of water glistening on her naked skin, but the only maiden here was his poor Penny, the stunted little dwarf girl.

Tyrion IX, Dance 40

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Every time they shuffled forward another place, the bells on their collars tinkled brightly. Such a happy sound, it makes me want to scoop out someone' s eyeballs with a spoon. By now Griff and Duck and Haldon Half-maester should be in Westeros with their young prince. I should be with them … but no, I had to have a whore. Kinslaying was not enough, I needed cunt and wine to seal my ruin, and here I am on the wrong side of the world, wearing a slave collar with little golden bells to announce my coming. If I dance just right, maybe I can ring "The Rains of Castamere."

Tyrion XI, Dance 57

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Now, there is a chance that she has even more husbands, considering that Hizdahr doesn't show up in the bride of fire section of the visions, but if so then I don't think that guy will be Aegon.

Maybe, but I wouldn't bet a goat on anyone else but Aegon. 

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Care to comment?

Yes.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way, inclined to do some in-depth controversial layout of the future of the series some time before TWoW comes out? Then we have a great resource to tell each other 'I told you so back then' when we know what actually happens. Could also be entertaining.

You are more than welcome to tell me you told me so if that will make you feel good. Whether you are right or wrong, about things we see differently, I often value your insight and knowledge. 

I have been wrong before, and I am sure I will be wrong, or at least off on many things. And of course, the George might change his mind as he writes the story. 

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way: Dany is Aegon the Conqueror come again. Visenya was his champion, just as Jon Snow might become hers.

That's not the way I see it. 

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17 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Well, she may dig the way Jon smells, but Jon digs the way Satin smells. :P

Satin can use his tongue on both of them. He should know how to do that.

Dany clearly is going to pluck that blue flower, regardless whether Jon Snow wants that or not. But you don't reject the fairest woman in the world.

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I think Tyrion hedges his bets between Daenerys and Aegon...

I don't think that he does, actually. He put a bad idea into Aegon's head when there was no reason to do so as I've told your recently. He had no idea yet that Dany wasn't coming and unless the placement of the talk on the ship rather than the camp of the Golden Company wasn't properly rewritten (on the ship Tyrion should have messed with Aegon's mind playing on his vanity and ambition - that he doesn't use dragons or a woman at all, just as Daeron I did not need a wife to conquer Dorne, that his claim - as he does mention - is better than hers, etc. - instead of suggesting a journey east nobody has planned or any reason even to entertain would be a bad idea) then Tyrion actually wanted to destroy Aegon there.

Going west without the dragons and Dany is a wrong idea from his point of view. Thus it seems reasonably to assume that he had decided to use Aegon as Arianne tried to use Myrcella, to get his revenge on his siblings and getting a lot of satisfaction by ruining Varys and Illyrio's precious plans in the process.

Tyrion only begins to miss Aegon and his merry band after Jorah has captured him. And it is obvious why. He has no prospect to end up on top of anything in that company and every reason to believe that Daenerys Targaryen is not exactly give him a warm welcome. In the company of Connington, Aegon, and the Golden Company he might have not been executed by Dany. If he shows up with Jorah Mormont and a dwarf girl things are quite different.

And should Tyrion step into the power vacuum at Slaver's Bay left by Dany's disappearance (after he becomes a dragonrider, say) then he does not need a dragonless feigned boy - and Tyrion doesn't believe Aegon is Rhaegar's son - he can go after the Iron Throne himself. Especially if it turns out that he is Aerys' bastard son (or decides to claim that he is).

Tyrion might still betray Daenerys at one point but most likely not to Aegon. Aegon has nothing he can offer Tyrion, and Tyrion will have the power to take what he wants, especially if he becomes one of Dany's generals.

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Maybe, but I wouldn't bet a goat on anyone else but Aegon. 

Well, there is no foreshadowing in that direction. And no actual prophetic dream or vision indicating such a development. If Aegon had gone east he could have married Dany. Just as Robb could have married a widowed Margaery Tyrell if he had gone to Bitterbridge to treat with Renly himself.

Events will unfold, Aegon will believe Dany is dead and do as he likes (as he already has begun to do). Arianne will demand a price for the Dornish help - most likely her hand - and Aegon will (gladly) pay that price. And back in Essos Dany might take another Dothraki consort, follow her heart and marry Daario (should he live), or end up with Victarion for some reason (which I still doubt). Even Tyrion himself - as Aerys' bastard and a dragonrider - is a possible match. She has keep the men riding her dragons close and intends to marry those two other dragon heads.

Your betrayal idea could work in that context if Tyrion ends up being forced to share Dany with other men and husbands.

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That's not the way I see it. 

Well, if Jon ever ends up with Dark Sister then this would be a pretty good analogy. That sword always belonged to the powerful Targaryen champions - Visenya, Maegor, Jaehaerys (in both cases before they became kings), Daemon, the Dragonknight, Bloodraven). 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Satin can use his tongue on both of them. He should know how to do that.

Dany clearly is going to pluck that blue flower, regardless whether Jon Snow wants that or not. But you don't reject the fairest woman in the world.

So, Danaerys is going to r#pe Jon???:huh:

Let me grab some popcorn first before I sit down in front of the fandom to read about this. 

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I don't think that he does, actually. He put a bad idea into Aegon's head when there was no reason to do so as I've told your recently. He had no idea yet that Dany wasn't coming and unless the placement of the talk on the ship rather than the camp of the Golden Company wasn't properly rewritten (on the ship Tyrion should have messed with Aegon's mind playing on his vanity and ambition - that he doesn't use dragons or a woman at all, just as Daeron I did not need a wife to conquer Dorne, that his claim - as he does mention - is better than hers, etc. - instead of suggesting a journey east nobody has planned or any reason even to entertain would be a bad idea) then Tyrion actually wanted to destroy Aegon there.

Going west without the dragons and Dany is a wrong idea from his point of view. Thus it seems reasonably to assume that he had decided to use Aegon as Arianne tried to use Myrcella, to get his revenge on his siblings and getting a lot of satisfaction by ruining Varys and Illyrio's precious plans in the process.

Tyrion only begins to miss Aegon and his merry band after Jorah has captured him. And it is obvious why. He has no prospect to end up on top of anything in that company and every reason to believe that Daenerys Targaryen is not exactly give him a warm welcome. In the company of Connington, Aegon, and the Golden Company he might have not been executed by Dany. If he shows up with Jorah Mormont and a dwarf girl things are quite different.

And should Tyrion step into the power vacuum at Slaver's Bay left by Dany's disappearance (after he becomes a dragonrider, say) then he does not need a dragonless feigned boy - and Tyrion doesn't believe Aegon is Rhaegar's son - he can go after the Iron Throne himself. Especially if it turns out that he is Aerys' bastard son (or decides to claim that he is).

Tyrion might still betray Daenerys at one point but most likely not to Aegon. Aegon has nothing he can offer Tyrion, and Tyrion will have the power to take what he wants, especially if he becomes one of Dany's generals.

Well, there is no foreshadowing in that direction. And no actual prophetic dream or vision indicating such a development. If Aegon had gone east he could have married Dany. Just as Robb could have married a widowed Margaery Tyrell if he had gone to Bitterbridge to treat with Renly himself.

Events will unfold, Aegon will believe Dany is dead and do as he likes (as he already has begun to do). Arianne will demand a price for the Dornish help - most likely her hand - and Aegon will (gladly) pay that price. And back in Essos Dany might take another Dothraki consort, follow her heart and marry Daario (should he live), or end up with Victarion for some reason (which I still doubt). Even Tyrion himself - as Aerys' bastard and a dragonrider - is a possible match. She has keep the men riding her dragons close and intends to marry those two other dragon heads.

Your betrayal idea could work in that context if Tyrion ends up being forced to share Dany with other men and husbands.

Well, if Jon ever ends up with Dark Sister then this would be a pretty good analogy. That sword always belonged to the powerful Targaryen champions - Visenya, Maegor, Jaehaerys (in both cases before they became kings), Daemon, the Dragonknight, Bloodraven). 

Great. But one question, where are the northern prophecies, tales, dreams, Jon's own desires in all of this? Or is this just the one woman Dany show? I guess that is two questions :P

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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