Daenerys's Fate and the Fire She Must Light to Love

[ravenous reader]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, I know Keats, too,

You 'know' Keats -- what a laugh.

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

but I'm not dragging him into this unless there is really good reason to do so.

And passages like that

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'silver'...generally a wintery, lunar, night color (e.g. the bark of the weirwood turns silver at night), dualism -- both healing and harming aspects (e.g. Maester's link for medicine...the shady secret that the man with therapeutic knowledge also knows how to kill), associated with sorcery (e.g. 'weave gowns of silver seaweed')

read pretty confusing to me. It is fine to know that you can connect a lot of stuff in your mind but I'm not sure why we should agree with that everything is connected to everything resulting in stuff being read in manner that is not exactly intuitive.

You don't have to agree.  You pretty much lack intuition.  In fact, you are pretty thick.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You 'know' Keats -- what a laugh.

Sure, personally. Didn't you talk about Caitlin Keats?

15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You don't have to agree.  You pretty much lack intuition.  In fact, you are pretty thick.

I know. We all have to shoulder our burden.

@The Fattest Leech

This wasn't directed at you. You have a certain view of the story and like a certain set of characters, and you would like to read things to go a certain way.

That is essentially okay.

If we talk about what I want to happen I use a different approach and actually mark my speculations and visions as such. For instance, I don't want Euron to sack Oldtown, I don't want Cersei to reclaim power in KL the near future (because I feel this doesn't make any sense in light of what has happened to her), and some other things.

I just grow tired when people ignore or downplay hints that clearly are hugely significant. Like the red comet that essentially dominates the first half of ACoK. That showed first up in Dany's last chapter and is essentially verified as meaning 'dragons' by Old Nan herself. We see a lot of people making sense of the comet in their own way but I'm reasonably confident that one reading is wrong.

I was talking about hints like that above, and the specific hints of the 'one savior Dany' scenario vs. the 'one savior Jon' scenario. And if you believe in that scenario it is pretty obvious that Dany has right now much better cards than Jon.

If we keep in mind that there might be more than one prophesied hero (three, for instance) then things look a lot different. Most signs still point to Dany but since we actually don't yet know what the promised prince is actually do in the war he is destined to fight there is no small chance that Jon is going to do a lot in that department.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Calling other people 'stupid' or 'thick' is against the rules of this forum.

Please comply with the rules and keep personal attacks out of this thread from now on.

[/MOD]

[teej6]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I was talking about hints like that above, and the specific hints of the 'one savior Dany' scenario vs. the 'one savior Jon' scenario. And if you believe in that scenario it is pretty obvious that Dany has right now much better cards than Jon.

If we keep in mind that there might be more than one prophesied hero (three, for instance) then things look a lot different. Most signs still point to Dany but since we actually don't yet know what the promised prince is actually do in the war he is destined to fight there is no small chance that Jon is going to do a lot in that department.

"Pretty obvious" to you but not so for many other readers. 

[ravenous reader]

11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

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The candle was almost gone. Less than an inch remained, jutting from a pool of warm melted wax to cast its light over the queen’s bed.

The flame had begun to gutter. It will go out before much longer, Dany realized, and when it does another night will be at its end.

Dawn always came too soon.

Daenerys VI, Dance 43

So, whose light will go out of the world before the night ends? 

Oh, I left out this bit...

Quote

The candle flickered one last time and died, drowned in its own wax. Darkness swallowed the feather bed and its two occupants, and filled every corner of the chamber.

Daenerys VI, Dance 43

The answer to your rhetorical question would appear to be 'the two occupants of the feather bed' who are doomed -- Dany and Daario.  Perhaps you're right, and Daario not a Greyjoy is the identity of the second 'would-be husband' in the vision (the sad grey wanly-smiling bright-eyed figurehead), the second of Dany's immolated mates who got too close to the flame of the bride of  death fire.

The molten wax is an allusion to the mythological figure of Icarus, who flew too high to the sun and paid dearly for his hubris when his wings made of feathers and wax melted:

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Icarus was the son of the famous craftsman Daedalus in Greek mythology. His father was the creator of the Labyrinth, a huge maze located under the court of King Minos of Crete, where the Minotaur, a half-man half-bull creature lived. In order for the secret of the Labyrinth to be kept, Minos had then imprisoned Daedalus and Icarus in a tower above his palace. Daedalus managed to create two sets of wings for himself and his son, that were made of feathers glued together with wax. He taught Icarus how to fly and warned him not to fly too high, which would cause the wax to melt, nor too low, which would cause the feathers to get wet with sea water. Together, they flew out of the tower towards freedom. However, Icarus soon forgot his father's warnings, and started flying higher and higher, until the wax started melting under the scorching sun. His wings dissolved and he fell into the sea and drowned. The area of the sea where he fell took the name Icarian Sea after him, while a nearby island was named Icaria.

From:  http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Mortals/Icarus/icarus.html

.Note both ingredients 'feathers' and 'molten wax' are present in the above and the following scene:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

On the window seat a raven loitered, pale, huge, its feathers ruffled. It was the largest raven that Kevan Lannister had ever seen. Larger than any hunting hawk at Casterly Rock, larger than the largest owl. Blowing snow danced around it, and the moon painted it silver.

Not silver. White. The bird is white.

The white ravens of the Citadel did not carry messages, as their dark cousins did. When they went forth from Oldtown, it was for one purpose only: to herald a change of seasons.

"Winter," said Ser Kevan. The word made a white mist in the air. He turned away from the window.

 Then something slammed him in the chest between the ribs, hard as a giant's fist. It drove the breath from him and sent him lurching backwards. The white raven took to the air, its pale wings slapping him about the head. Ser Kevan half-sat and half-fell onto the window seat. What ... who ... A quarrel was sunk almost to the fletching in his chest. No. No, that was how my brother died. Blood was seeping out around the shaft. "Pycelle," he muttered, confused. "Help me ... I ..."

Then he saw. Grand Maester Pycelle was seated at his table, his head pillowed on the great leather-bound tome before him. Sleeping, Kevan thought ... until he blinked and saw the deep red gash in the old man's spotted skull and the blood pooled beneath his head, staining the pages of his book. All around his candle were bits of bone and brain, islands in a lake of melted wax.

What's particularly interesting in Dany's case is the self-destructive nature of her plight conveyed by the idea of 'burning the candle at both ends' and 'drowning in ones own wax.'

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, teej6 said:

"Pretty obvious" to you but not so for many other readers. 

Well, since I pointed the whole thing out again I don't think you can say that anymore.

Dany waking dragons from stone is the flashlight. Anything pointing towards Jon as a viable alternative literally pales in the brightness of that fire.

And even if Jon was doing similar stuff than Daenerys - what would be our criteria to decide who was the true prophesied one? Even if Jon fought against the Others and won we don't even know whether that was part of the prophecy since we don't actually know its texts.

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, since I pointed the whole thing out again I don't think you can say that anymore.

Dany waking dragons from stone is the flashlight. Anything pointing towards Jon as a viable alternative literally pales in the brightness of that fire.

And even if Jon was doing similar stuff than Daenerys - what would be our criteria to decide who was the true prophesied one? Even if Jon fought against the Others and won we don't even know whether that was part of the prophecy since we don't actually know its texts.

And the George even has one of his characters tell us explicitly, and with great joy, that Daenerys is the princess that was promised! The George would never, ever have one of his characters mislead  the reader like that, would he? So, @Lord Varys must be right, and anybody who thinks that Jon is the promised prince is an imbecile.

[Damon_Tor]

On 12/10/2016 at 2:09 AM, Shmedricko said:

Just a couple of points I wanted to mention:

1) Martin has referred to Mirri's words as a prophecy:

2) Right before the dragon eggs hatched and Daenerys became the Figurative Mother of Literal Dragons, she had a vision of Drogo:

Perhaps if Daenerys bears a living child, thus becoming the Literal Mother of a Figurative Dragon, she will have another vision of Drogo ("Then he will return, and not before") just before she dies, joining him in the night lands?

This passage (and GRRM's confirmation that it's a prophecy, albeit a "tricky" one) is core to the theory that Rhaego is alive. The "he" MMD refers to doesn't refer to Drogo, but to Rhaego.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Daenerys's problem is that red herrings are smoked salted and she keeps running into lemon trees.  

Maester Aemon links the prince that was promised prophecy to the Azor Ahai reborn prophecy. As related to the reader in a couple of different spots the Azor Ahai prophecy provides seven elements, and one threshold. The hero will be 1) reborn under a 2) red bleeding star with 3) cold winds blowing, amidst 4) smoke and 5) salt to 6) wake a dragon and to draw a 7) burning sword from the fire that would be called Lightbringer. From Barristan we learn that Jaehaerys II had heard the Ghost of High Heart prophesize that the prince that was promised would be born from the line of his son and daughter, Aerys II and Rhaella. Since two of the elements are smoke and salt we should watch for red herrings (unless you prefer to eat your herring raw, like the Dutch, ja?).

The only unquestioned descendant of Aerys II and Rhaella is Daenerys. If Aegon truly were the son of Rhaegar he would be a candidate, but there are more than a few hints that he is actually the son of Illyrio and a none of Aegon's experiences have satisfied any of the elements anyway. 

But Daenerys is the red herring. Still, we can make a convincing argument in her favor, though. She was “reborn” as the Red Comet was first observed. There were no cold winds blowing, but that element was probably satisfied as to all characters by the approaching threat of the Others. She burned Drogo on the edge of the Dothraki Sea, thus providing the smoke and the salt. And the fire caused her three dragonlets to hatch from eggs that had been turned to stone. And those dragons have been described as flaming swords over the world. 

Assuming he is “reborn” in Winds, though, all of the other elements will be satisfied as to Jon by the end of Dance too. He was stabbed while a knight, whose sigil included a spatter of five-pointed stars, was bloodied and killed by a giant. Jon’s blood appeared to smoke as it fell on the snow and Bowen Marsh’s tears were clearly intended to supply the salt. When he wakes, it will be as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna—the Ice Dragon, no? So, he will wake a dragon. Jeor Mormont awarded Jon a sword of Valyrian steel after Jon destroyed a wight with fire, burning his sword hand in the process, and shortly before his stabbing, Jon had a vision of fighting the Others with his sword burning in his hand. 

The tale of how the original Azor Ahai forged the original Lightbringer suggested that the reborn Azor Ahai would have to make some great sacrifice to forge the new Lightbringer. Jon has already sacrificed Ygritte.

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

<snip>

Assuming he is “reborn” in Winds, though, all of the other elements will be satisfied as to Jon by the end of Dance too. He was stabbed while a knight, whose sigil included a spatter of five-pointed stars, was bloodied and killed by a giant. Jon’s blood appeared to smoke as it fell on the snow and Bowen Marsh’s tears were clearly intended to supply the salt. When he wakes, it will be as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna—the Ice Dragon, no? So, he will wake a dragon. Jeor Mormont awarded Jon a sword of Valyrian steel after Jon destroyed a wight with fire, burning his sword hand in the process, and shortly before his stabbing, Jon had a vision of fighting the Others with his sword burning in his hand. 

The tale of how the original Azor Ahai forged the original Lightbringer suggested that the reborn Azor Ahai would have to make some great sacrifice to forge the new Lightbringer. Jon has already sacrificed Ygritte.

Nitpicking, but the scene above is Jon's death, not his re-birth - unless he's reborn really fast, it won't do. Besides, I expect omens for Jon to be more grandiose than these!

I believe in multiple AA's; I can't see any need to choose a single candidate. Jon does not invalidate Dany.

[teej6]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, since I pointed the whole thing out again I don't think you can say that anymore.

Dany waking dragons from stone is the flashlight. Anything pointing towards Jon as a viable alternative literally pales in the brightness of that fire.

And even if Jon was doing similar stuff than Daenerys - what would be our criteria to decide who was the true prophesied one? Even if Jon fought against the Others and won we don't even know whether that was part of the prophecy since we don't actually know its texts.

And Dany hatching dragon eggs to me is a big neon sign that reads Red Herring.

Among the various versions of the prophesied hero story, it is only Mel's interpretation, IIRC, that mentions the part about awakening dragons from stone. But most interpretations (of AA at least) state that the character will fight the enemy with a burning sword. I would say the burning sword part is as important to the prophesied saviour's story as the waking dragons from stone part, if not more. I highly doubt that before the end, Dany will be wielding let alone fighting with a burning sword. Of course, I know your response. But I don't subscribe to the Drogon being Lightbringer theory. 

Now who are the characters in the story that are associated with a burning sword -- Stannis who we can safely dismiss as a red herring, and then Jon who has a dream fighting the undead with a burning sword. Of couse, I already know that you will dismiss Jon's dream or Mel's visions of Jon when asked for a glimpse of AA as you usually do, so it's pointless debating with you. But please don't tell me what I can and cannot say based on your biased and selective interpretation of the text.

[teej6]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And the George even has one of his characters tell us explicitly, and with great joy, that Daenerys is the princess that was promised! The George would never, ever have one of his characters mislead  the reader like that, would he? So, @Lord Varys must be right, and anybody who thinks that Jon is the promised prince is an imbecile.

Yeah Aemon literally spells it out for us that Dany is the promised one but we imbeciles have blinders on our eyes and cannot see the truth. GRRM who famously said he would lose interest in a story if he knew how it ends is going to reveal this big a mystery with three books to go. 

[ravenous reader]

39 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I believe in multiple AA's

I agree. GRRM doesn't strike me as someone who puts much faith in the coming of 'The One.'  Hence, multiple.  Probably 'three,' since that seems to be his favorite go-to number of anything.

26 minutes ago, teej6 said:

But most interpretations (of AA at least) state that the character will fight the enemy with a burning sword. I would say the burning sword part is as important to the prophesied saviour's story as the waking dragons from stone part, if not more. I highly doubt that before the end, Dany will be wielding let alone fighting with a burning sword

The dragons are a burning sword!  

[teej6]

5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The dragons are a burning sword!  

As I said, as of now, I do not subscribe to the notion that Drogon is Lightbringer. IMO, Jon's dream of fighting with a burning sword was not random or a misdirection on GRRM's part. 

[ravenous reader]

6 minutes ago, teej6 said:

As I said, as of now, I do not subscribe to the notion that Drogon is Lightbringer. IMO, Jon's dream of fighting with a burning sword was not random or a misdirection on GRRM's part. 

I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  GRRM often gives us both a literal as well as a figurative example of the same central archetype.

This is not a tale of 'either...or'; it's about 'and' -- That's why the most important word in the saga's title is AND:

'A song of ice and fire'

[teej6]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  GRRM often gives us both a literal as well as a figurative example of the same central archetype.

This is not a tale of 'either...or'; it's about 'and' -- That's why the most important word in the saga's title is AND;

'A song of ice and fire'

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I believe that the return of dragons are central to the story but I also believe that Jon will eventually fight the enemy with a prophesied weapon, which I don't believe is Drogon. Now everything about the prophesy, such as, killing his true love, burning sword, etc. need not be literal but the imagery will still come to pass. At least that's what I think. 

[ravenous reader]

9 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I believe that the return of dragons are central to the story but I also believe that Jon will eventually fight the enemy with a prophesied weapon, which I don't believe is Drogon. Now everything about the prophesy, such as, killing his true love, burning sword, etc. need not be literal but the imagery will still come to pass. At least that's what I think. 

It could be any number of things.  Perhaps the prophesied weapon is his brother Bran.  I'd say the talent of greenseeing is a bit of a 'burning Brand,' the 'sword without a hilt' (Bran's lost his legs so he's a great example of a broken sword).  Then if someone steals a dragon, we could have a 'dragon steal' pun on 'dragonsteel' -- Didn't the Last Hero wield 'dragonsteel'!

In any case, multiple forces will come together and work as one.  The bittersweet winners will be the ones who choose love and self-sacrifice instead of hate (because GRRM in the end is a bit of a sentimentalist, despite his Jaimesque mutterings about humanity).  The one thing the gobbledeegook of Mirri's prophecy agrees on is that the final, third action -- analogous to the final, successful, third forging of 'Lightbringer' -- must be initiated out of love, for love, to love...

That much I believe in!

[teej6]

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

It could be any number of things.  Perhaps the prophesied weapon is his brother Bran.  I'd say the talent of greenseeing is a bit of a 'burning Brand,' the 'sword without a hilt' (Bran's lost his legs so he's a great example of a broken sword).  Then if someone steals a dragon, we could have a 'dragon steal' pun on 'dragonsteel' -- Didn't the Last Hero wield 'dragonsteel'!

In any case, multiple forces will come together and work as one.  The bittersweet winners will be the ones who choose love and self-sacrifice instead of hate (because GRRM in the end is a bit of a sentimentalist, despite his Jaimesque mutterings about humanity).  The one thing the gobbledeegook of Mirri's prophecy agrees on is that the final, third action -- analogous to the final, successful, third forging of 'Lightbringer' -- must be initiated out of love, for love, to love...

That much I believe in!

I don't dispute the fact that multiple forces/characters will be needed in the end. In fact, it will most likely be Bran's actions that will be pivotal in determining the fate of Westeros. He is the one who from the very beginning is connected to the looming apocalypse and seems destined to fight the end of humanity. 

And yes, for all of the talk of GRRM subverting tropes, I think GRRM is at heart a romantic and his bittersweet ending will have more sweet than bitter. 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And the George even has one of his characters tell us explicitly, and with great joy, that Daenerys is the princess that was promised! The George would never, ever have one of his characters mislead  the reader like that, would he? So, @Lord Varys must be right, and anybody who thinks that Jon is the promised prince is an imbecile.

Exactly, he wouldn't. This series is not about misleading the readers about who the main characters are. Robb, Stannis, Tywin, Renly, Aegon, Jeor, Lysa, Tommen, Loras, Mace, Margaery, etc. don't have their own chapters for a reason.

Claiming that Dany is a 'red herring' when gets an entire catalog of prophecies attached to her person is just silly. It is on the same crackpot level as doubting that Joffrey had anything to do with the attempt on Bran or that Olenna was behind the murder of Joffrey.

The red herrings here are Stannis, Aegon, and whoever/whatever is the stone beast. 

This story isn't a murder mystery or a detective novel. The author gives no deliberate hints that he is actually trying to obscure the identity of the promised prince. Quite the contrary, actually.

The series is also not supposed to have another ten novels during which Jon can to mimic or even surpass Dany's achievements in the magical and prophetical departments.

And while we have still no clue what the promised prince is actually supposed to do any speculation what it means to be the guy outside the clues we have already been given (born amidst smoke and salt, bleeding star, waking dragons from stone) it makes no sense to speculate or hope against hope what Jon might do in the next book and instead ignore what Daenerys has already done in the first five books.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Assuming he is “reborn” in Winds, though, all of the other elements will be satisfied as to Jon by the end of Dance too. He was stabbed while a knight, whose sigil included a spatter of five-pointed stars, was bloodied and killed by a giant. Jon’s blood appeared to smoke as it fell on the snow and Bowen Marsh’s tears were clearly intended to supply the salt. When he wakes, it will be as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna—the Ice Dragon, no? So, he will wake a dragon. Jeor Mormont awarded Jon a sword of Valyrian steel after Jon destroyed a wight with fire, burning his sword hand in the process, and shortly before his stabbing, Jon had a vision of fighting the Others with his sword burning in his hand. 

I don't assume stuff I cannot prove.

And you have a really strange way of interpreting things. This is the prophecy Melisandre mentions:

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“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

There is nothing in there about cold winds blowing where the sword-drawing is happening. The star(s) certainly can bleed, and did when Dany drew her dragons out of the fire (after all, they are in the skies and thus everywhere). The cold breath of darkness certainly has begun falling on the world since the Prologue of AGoT. The Others are there.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The tale of how the original Azor Ahai forged the original Lightbringer suggested that the reborn Azor Ahai would have to make some great sacrifice to forge the new Lightbringer. Jon has already sacrificed Ygritte.

In fact, no. Jon did not only not sacrifice Ygritte - he was too soft for that, hoping she would live and thanking the gods his arrows did not pierce her - he would also never forge a new Lightbringer because that was never part of the prophecy. The Red Sword of Heroes is supposed to be drawn out of a fire not forged the way the historical Azor Ahai did 

32 minutes ago, teej6 said:

And Dany hatching dragon eggs to me is a big neon sign that reads Red Herring.

How so? When compared to a real charade like Stannis' fake Lightbringer dipped in wildfire, the glamored fake he is carrying later, or Mance wearing a glamor in comparison to Arya wearing an actual new face we can easily differentiate between a crucial and important event and when something fishy is going on.

Aside from people wanting that Dany is a red herring there is no good evidence that she actually is (unlike Stannis and Aegon).

32 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Among the various versions of the prophesied hero story, it is only Mel's interpretation, IIRC, that mentions the part about awakening dragons from stone.

That doesn't matter. Melisandre identifies the person she calls the reborn Azor Ahai with the promised prince. And we know the return of the dragons is a crucial part of the Targaryen prophecy tradition, too. Aerys I found a prophecy foretelling the return of the dragons and Daeron, Aerion, Aemon, and Aegon V all dreamed about that, too. Dany dreamed about it as well.

32 minutes ago, teej6 said:

But most interpretations (of AA at least) state that the character will fight the enemy with a burning sword. I would say the burning sword part is as important to the prophesied saviour's story as the waking dragons from stone part, if not more. I highly doubt that before the end, Dany will be wielding let alone fighting with a burning sword. Of course, I know your response. But I don't subscribe to the Drogon being Lightbringer theory.

Beric Dondarrion also had a burning sword. He wasn't the savior. Why should Jon be if gets that particular gimmick? Waving a burning sword at the Others is not going to make them disappear. How many wights can he kill with a burning sword? I'd say twenty, before they gut him.

This is war is not going to be won with swords, burning or not.

And as I've said above already, the burning sword is not to be supposed by the reborn Azor Ahai, it is supposed to be drawn out of the fire. Now, Jon certainly can draw Longclaw out of some fire in a future book (if he is stupid enough to dump it into a fire before he draws it out again) but it doesn't seem likely that such a drawing event is going to be particularly magical.

And it is quite clear that our good friend Benerro also believes the dragons identify Daenerys as the reborn Azor Ahai, not some sword:

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“The priest is calling on the Volantenes to go to war,” the Halfmaester told him, “but on the side of right, as soldiers of the Lord of Light, R’hllor who made the sun and stars and fights eternally against the darkness. Nyessos and Malaquo have turned away from the light, he says, their hearts darkened by the yellow harpies from the east. He says …”
“Dragons. I understood that word. He said dragons.”
“Aye. The dragons have come to carry her to glory.”
“Her. Daenerys?”

Haldon nodded. “Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”

I do not think there won't be any burning swords. In fact, the story of Beric Dondarrion and the effects Thoros' fire spell-prayer had on the sword-igniting qualities of his blood are, I think, highly significant but usually overlooked by people.

TWoIaF may have given us some sort of subtle clue that the Dondarrions have Targaryen blood (in the marriage between Baelor Breakspear and Jena Dondarrion, which would make more sense if they were cousins through the female Targaryen line - we know that the Penroses are such cousins). If that's the case then Beric coming back might have been an effect of the prayer-spell in combination with the special Targaryen blood Beric has. The fact that it is very much diluted could explain why he deteriorated as much as he did after all those repeated resurrections.

Jon's body is very likely to be resurrected by the same method, and his Targaryen blood is much purer. Subsequently his blood might be able to literally ignite Valyrian steel swords. That could be a nice treat. But this would not have him forge a sword the way the historical Azor Ahai did, or draw a sword named Lightbringer from a fire.

That way his dream about him wielding a burning sword will come true. However, that dream doesn't strike me as particularly prophetic considering that it is also clearly a nightmare involving a lot of Jon's fears. Here it is in full length:

Quote

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.
“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.
They are all gone. They have abandoned me.
Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.
The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off.

Most of the stuff in there is not going to happen. And it is not true that Melisandre only sees Jon Snow when searching for Stannis/Azor Ahai. She sees a lot of things, actually:

Quote

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.
Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

[...]

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

[...]

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.
Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.
The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

When asked by Devan what she sees she summarizes those visions as

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Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.

and

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I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

But we who have watched her visions with her earlier on know that this is not exactly true. She has seen a lot of stuff besides Jon Snow and a thousand skulls.

I'm not denying that this is an important clue, though. Jon Snow is part of the savior trinity, after all. And it may even be that he is supposed to fulfill other parts of the prophecy, parts we don't know anything about, parts that have to do with the actual mission of the hero not events surrounding the beginning of his career.

It is not just that the dragons are literal lightbringers, it is also that Daenerys tried three times to hatch them just as the mythical Azor Ahai tried three times to harden the sword he was trying to make (and failing two times).

The dragons are also warm to the touch, just as Nissa Nissa and Drogo had been warm. And if you actually reread the relevant chapter you will also realize that it is Drogo's spirit - and thus his life force, his sacrifice - that hatches the dragon eggs in the end.

That is clearly a variation of the Azor Ahai story. You cannot deny that. The only difference is that there is actually no sword involved.

32 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Now who are the characters in the story that are associated with a burning sword -- Stannis who we can safely dismiss as a red herring, and then Jon who has a dream fighting the undead with a burning sword. Of couse, I already know that you will dismiss Jon's dream or Mel's visions of Jon when asked for a glimpse of AA as you usually do, so it's pointless debating with you. But please don't tell me what I can and cannot say based on your biased and selective interpretation of the text.

We are talking about Jon vs. Dany as saviors. I'm not subscribing to that. I'm fine with Jon doing heroic stuff. But I'm not fine with the idea that Jon is the guy who is clearly fulfilling all the prophecies. Because he isn't.

And I actually believe that Mel seeing Jon in the flames is a clue that he has more to do with the savior than Stannis, since he is one of the dragon heads. A three-headed dragon is essentially a trinity. Three heads, one body. Three people, one goal/cause/mission.

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Yeah Aemon literally spells it out for us that Dany is the promised one but we imbeciles have blinders on our eyes and cannot see the truth. GRRM who famously said he would lose interest in a story if he knew how it ends is going to reveal this big a mystery with three books to go. 

So you think George doesn't know that Jon Snow is the prophesied savior? He is talking about his writing process here, not the boring answer of some mystery.

The idea that this thing is a big mystery actually makes little sense to me. It is an interesting question but not a question that can remain a mystery till the very end. The savior(s) may be forced to actually do something important after they know who they are and what their mission is. Things are not going to resolve themselves once that mystery has been revealed.

And besides, we know that George seldom uses great twists to nor does he really work with red herrings. Instead, he puts subtle clues to various mysteries into the story so that we can guess at the truth. He would not give us so many clues pointing towards Daenerys and then suddenly turn the entire thing on its head. Just as he is not going to suddenly reveal that Varys and not Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn or that Tywin and not the Tyrells/Littlefinger were behind the murder of Joffrey.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think George doesn't know that Jon Snow is the prophesied savior? He is talking about his writing process here, not the boring answer of some mystery.

And besides, we know that George seldom uses great twists to nor does he really work with red herrings. Instead, he puts subtle clues to various mysteries into the story so that we can guess at the truth. He would not give us so many clues pointing towards Daenerys and then suddenly turn the entire thing on its head. Just as he is not going to suddenly reveal that Varys and not Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn or that Tywin and not the Tyrells/Littlefinger were behind the murder of Joffrey.

When I said GRRM stated that he didn't like stories to which he knew the ending, I wasn't meaning the stories he writes. There's a quote from him (too lazy to find it) about not liking movies if he was able to decipher the ending half way through the movie or something to that effect. 

I disagree, GRRM does use twists. He points the reader in one direction and then reveals the truth to be something else. To use your very example, we as readers are led to believe in AGOT that the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn but then we are told Lysa did at the behest of LF. He uses misdirection and unreliable narrative quite often. I believe it was just recently that GRRM said he's going to include a twist in tWoW involving a character that is dead on the show. And I wouldn't call Aemon stating aloud that Dany is tPtwP a "subtle clue".