The Five Forts

[YOVMO]

I am pretty sure that @Seams has a glass candle as I am starting to see breaks and boundaries, both natural and artificial, in the woiaf. I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the five forts, specifically as relates a gateway between two worlds.

 

The impetus for this thinking comes from thinking about Euron. In this reread I hit the section where, in response to talking about his bastards being of his blood, Euron says "So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the sealstone chair, much less the iron throne. No, to make an heir that's worth of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let the world beware"

 

So the "him" is what worries me. I feel so much hinges here. If there is a power that Euron is genuflecting towards then it pretty much has to be the most evil, jerkfaced, crazy thing ever right? There simply isn't enough info to suggest what this is. While there is no confirmation that he is even a real thing, the Nights King would be a good guess I think. I don't think this plan could possibly involve allowing a pregnancy to age into adult hood. I am thinking more like, Craster gave his creepy incest sons to the others but what if someone of the greyjoy blood (with all it's strange powers) had a baby with a targaryen and that prodigy child was given to the others, or a king of the others.

 

This thinking got me to the point of wondering where Euron might have come across such a baddie and the five forts seems as likely a place as any. I am wondering if there is anyone who might see this place as a good human meets other kind of place.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Eh, I'm of the opinion that it's probably more of an Eastern version of the Wall. Massive structures of impossible to replicate architecture that stands guard on the edge between the civilized lands and more brutal, tribal lands.

[Maester of Valyria]

I think it's unlikely that Euron has visited the Forts, as they are situated very far inland and Euron seems to prefer sailing for transportation. Also, I'm not sure when GRRM thought up the Forts for the first time, but I believe (not for certain) that they weren't mentioned before Lands came out, which was a fair while after Euron's first appearance. Of course that might mean nothing.

[Curled Finger]

When you bring Yi Ti into it, it's hard to fit Westeros into the conversation.   The 5 Forts certainly appear to be mighty fortresses forged with dragon flame despite the protestations of historians.  I think it's safe to consider the 5 Forts a thin place, or veil between worlds as far as that goes.    Others?   I'm not so sure.    There are few races described like the Others.    The only one that actually comes to mind is those creatures who live in the desert and become water when killed.    They make some annoying noise too.   It would serve us to actually know something, anything about the Others.   At this point all we know is they are tied to increased cold.  Are they indigenous or alien?  As I read the timeline they seem to have appeared after the pact and before the Wall is built.    Maybe the Wall is key in tying into the 5 Forts.   There is no timeline for events in Yi Ti, but the 5 Forts are mentioned along with lizard skinned creatures and mad gods.   Westeros has Old Gods so why not tie into mad gods?   

So Yovmo, much as I enjoy your musings and conversation, I'm not convinced there are exactly Others so much as different types of nefarious doing creatures on all the continents of Planetos.   But I can get firmly behind The Wall and 5 Forts being hinges of the world whatever that really means.   

[theblackdragonI]

I can't remember where I read about the theory that the world in Ice and Fire is round and that Essos is linked or used to be linked to Westeros. Summed up very badly, the theory is that it is (or used to be) possible to walk from Westeros to Essos along a land bridge. It is believed that this bridge was destroyed during the Long Night by the First Men and the Children as a way of stopping the Others, or that the bridge still exists beyond the Wall in the Lands of Always Winter. I've always liked this theory because in Yi Ti, where the Five Forts are they experienced the Long Night also, with them calling the Night King (or whoever leads the WW) and the White Walkers the Lion of Night and his demons. So it would kind of make sense if after the Long Night ended the surviving men erected the Wall and the Five Forts to keep out the White Walkers? This would mean the FF have the same magical properties as the Wall which isn't that hard to believe as they are both amazing structures. 

What do you all think?

[Sensenmenn]

4 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

I can't remember where I read about the theory that the world in Ice and Fire is round and that Essos is linked or used to be linked to Westeros. Summed up very badly, the theory is that it is (or used to be) possible to walk from Westeros to Essos along a land bridge. It is believed that this bridge was destroyed during the Long Night by the First Men and the Children as a way of stopping the Others, or that the bridge still exists beyond the Wall in the Lands of Always Winter. I've always liked this theory because in Yi Ti, where the Five Forts are they experienced the Long Night also, with them calling the Night King (or whoever leads the WW) and the White Walkers the Lion of Night and his demons. So it would kind of make sense if after the Long Night ended the surviving men erected the Wall and the Five Forts to keep out the White Walkers? This would mean the FF have the same magical properties as the Wall which isn't that hard to believe as they are both amazing structures. 

What do you all think?

I agree with most of this however the lion of night wasn't the leader of the others he was one of the two celestial gods of the world and together him and the maid of morning produced the god emperors of the GEotD and are thegreatest ancestors of the targaryens. And his demons could include not just the others but the deep ones and all maner of horrers of the night. Also the nights king has been dead for 8000 years and has nothing to do with the current story!

[theblackdragonI]

7 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

I agree with most of this however the lion of night wasn't the leader of the others he was one of the two celestial gods of the world and together him and the maid of morning produced the god emperors of the GEotD and are thegreatest ancestors of the targaryens. And his demons could include not just the others but the deep ones and all maner of horrers of the night. Also the nights king has been dead for 8000 years and has nothing to do with the current story!

You're absolutely I tend to get confused when I try and understand the deities of TWOIAF. I know about the Night King I was just using the title (incorrectly) to refer to the lead walker if there even is one!

[Jon Fossoway]

He's talking about the King in Yellow in Carcosa.

Hype.

[Maester of Valyria]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The only one that actually comes to mind is those creatures who live in the desert and become water when killed.

Slightly embarrassingly I can't recall what creatures you're talking about. Do you have a quote for them?

 

13 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

I can't remember where I read about the theory that the world in Ice and Fire is round and that Essos is linked or used to be linked to Westeros. Summed up very badly, the theory is that it is (or used to be) possible to walk from Westeros to Essos along a land bridge. It is believed that this bridge was destroyed during the Long Night by the First Men and the Children as a way of stopping the Others, or that the bridge still exists beyond the Wall in the Lands of Always Winter. I've always liked this theory because in Yi Ti, where the Five Forts are they experienced the Long Night also, with them calling the Night King (or whoever leads the WW) and the White Walkers the Lion of Night and his demons. So it would kind of make sense if after the Long Night ended the surviving men erected the Wall and the Five Forts to keep out the White Walkers? This would mean the FF have the same magical properties as the Wall which isn't that hard to believe as they are both amazing structures. 

What do you all think?

I'm pretty sure that GRRM said in an SSM (for which I don't have a link I'm afraid) that the Grey Waste does not connect with the Lands of Always Winter. This information means that you can extrapolate that there is no land connection between Westeros and Essos (except the now-Broken Arm of Dorne). Although if there was once another land bridge which is now submerged it would fit in with my theory about sea level rise.

[Falcon2908]

7 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I'm pretty sure that GRRM said in an SSM (for which I don't have a link I'm afraid) that the Grey Waste does not connect with the Lands of Always Winter. 

Could be that during winter, massive ice sheets are formed that connect Westeros and Essos in the far northern regions.

I remember in your essay where the wood-walkers migrated to mainland Essos from Ibben when the waters between them froze

[Maester of Valyria]

2 minutes ago, Falcon2908 said:

Could be that during winter, massive ice sheets are formed that connect Westeros and Essos in the far northern regions.

I remember in your essay where the wood-walkers migrated to mainland Essos from Ibben when the waters between them froze

I'm flattered that you remember my idea! Thank you

However, unless Essos extends much further east than we are shown, and curves sharply northwards at some point (which due to the size of the planet I don't believe is the case), then I'm afraid given the estimated size of Planetos it is nigh-inconceivable that polar ice sheets would form of sufficient size to connect the two continents. This might happen during ice ages/Long Night(s), but not during run-of-the-mill winters. Such a large amount of frozen sea would result in noticeable drops in sea level and a cooling feedback system on the planet.

It is an interesting idea though; I'll be sure to give it some more thought and research, and I might do a write up at some point.

[Dorian Martell]

On 8/21/2016 at 0:51 PM, YOVMO said:

I am pretty sure that @Seams has a glass candle as I am starting to see breaks and boundaries, both natural and artificial, in the woiaf. I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the five forts, specifically as relates a gateway between two worlds.

 

The impetus for this thinking comes from thinking about Euron. In this reread I hit the section where, in response to talking about his bastards being of his blood, Euron says "So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the sealstone chair, much less the iron throne. No, to make an heir that's worth of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let the world beware"

 

So the "him" is what worries me. I feel so much hinges here. If there is a power that Euron is genuflecting towards then it pretty much has to be the most evil, jerkfaced, crazy thing ever right? There simply isn't enough info to suggest what this is. While there is no confirmation that he is even a real thing, the Nights King would be a good guess I think. I don't think this plan could possibly involve allowing a pregnancy to age into adult hood. I am thinking more like, Craster gave his creepy incest sons to the others but what if someone of the greyjoy blood (with all it's strange powers) had a baby with a targaryen and that prodigy child was given to the others, or a king of the others.

 

This thinking got me to the point of wondering where Euron might have come across such a baddie and the five forts seems as likely a place as any. I am wondering if there is anyone who might see this place as a good human meets other kind of place.

the point of the world book is that the farther you go from westeros, the less reliable any info about a place gets. there has been one single weserosi person who wrote about the thousand islands. We know of asshai because folks regularly go there, but just a short journey beyond all we have is rumor.

Also, Euron does not have any strange greyjoy powers. He has the shade of the evening. That is the only magic he possesses. What he does possess is a bravery bordering on madness, unbridled, calculating cruelty and a desire to rule the world. There is no reason to think he ever got to the five forts. He probably picked up the warlocks somewhere between qarth and slavers bay as that is where they were heading. 

Spoiler

As per the Aeron chapter, Aeron thinks he has been to Valyria, tha armor confirms it, and he has no problem cutting the tongue out of his preganant lover and sacrificing her to beat the redwyne fleet 

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Slightly embarrassingly I can't recall what creatures you're talking about. Do you have a quote for them?

 

I'm pretty sure that GRRM said in an SSM (for which I don't have a link I'm afraid) that the Grey Waste does not connect with the Lands of Always Winter. This information means that you can extrapolate that there is no land connection between Westeros and Essos (except the now-Broken Arm of Dorne). Although if there was once another land bridge which is now submerged it would fit in with my theory about sea level rise.

Sorry on the phone here.  It will correct my spelling.  These folks are the Jogos Nhai the zorse riders Lo Bu sought dominion over.   They were known to melt away before opposing armies.  I'm not finding the supporting text for my claim they make a weird noise so I may have misremembered that sorry.  They are a nasty bunch with some very interesting er qualities and traditions.  

[Tucu]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Sorry on the phone here.  It will correct my spelling.  These folks are the Jogos Nhai the zorse riders Lo Bu sought dominion over.   They were known to melt away before opposing armies.  I'm not finding the supporting text for my claim they make a weird noise so I may have misremembered that sorry.  They are a nasty bunch with some very interesting er qualities and traditions.  

This is the quote you are probably looking for. But it doesn't mean that they melt when killed, just that they scattered when confronted with big armies. The Jogos Nhai are human and live north of Yi Ti, but west of the Five Forts.

When the Jogos Nhai resorted to their traditional tactics, melting away at his approach, Lo Bu divided his huge army into thirteen smaller hosts and sent them forth in all directions to hunt down the nomads wherever they might go. It is written that a million Jogos Nhai died at their hands.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

 

Wow this phone really has a mind of its own today.  @Tucu I'm looking at synonyms for scatter and disperse and "melt" is not listed as an even infrequent alternative for either.  It says melt and I'm afraid I have to stand behind it.  They melted.  Maybe someone can ask Linda or Elio to clarify?

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Wow this phone really has a mind of its own today.  @Tucu I'm looking at synonyms for scatter and disperse and "melt" is not listed as an even infrequent alternative for either.  It says melt and I'm afraid I have to stand behind it.  They melted.  Maybe someone can ask Linda or Elio to clarify?

An old metaphor. I googled a couple of examples. One from the Bible: Saul's lookouts at Gibeah in Benjamin saw the army melting away in all directions.

And one from a newspaper : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/13/baghdad-faces-the-abyss-after-its-military-melts-away

Also, the Jogos Nhai have appeared twice in the books already. In Qarth and in the fighting pits of Meereen.

[Jon Fossoway]

Yep, GRRM said that westeros and essos does not connect at all.

I suspect Euron is talking about a deity. R'hllor (gosh, I can't get it right), maybe?

[Runaway Penguin]

Curled Finger, not sure about dictionary, but seen "melting" in reference to forces (esp. irregular) dispersing (or being routed) pretty often. For example Vietcong are often described as "melting" into jungle etc. - nothing new. I think this represents clearly the dangers of similar boards - taking things TOO literally (similar to say thinking that "bombing into stone age" means bombing every metal tool user. 

 

For example, from the memories from Peninsular war (just to establish the metaphor is old enough):

"'Twas enough. On rushed the Fusiliers and 53rd regiment and delivered such a fire, that in a few minutes the enemy melted away, leaving 6 pieces of cannon behind..."

 

Since Battle of Talavera featured the French as antagonist, I think we can avoid being sidetracked

[White Ravens]

On 8/21/2016 at 0:51 PM, YOVMO said:

I am pretty sure that @Seams has a glass candle as I am starting to see breaks and boundaries, both natural and artificial, in the woiaf. I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the five forts, specifically as relates a gateway between two worlds.

 

The impetus for this thinking comes from thinking about Euron. In this reread I hit the section where, in response to talking about his bastards being of his blood, Euron says "So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the sealstone chair, much less the iron throne. No, to make an heir that's worth of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let the world beware"

 

So the "him" is what worries me. I feel so much hinges here. If there is a power that Euron is genuflecting towards then it pretty much has to be the most evil, jerkfaced, crazy thing ever right? There simply isn't enough info to suggest what this is. While there is no confirmation that he is even a real thing, the Nights King would be a good guess I think. I don't think this plan could possibly involve allowing a pregnancy to age into adult hood. I am thinking more like, Craster gave his creepy incest sons to the others but what if someone of the greyjoy blood (with all it's strange powers) had a baby with a targaryen and that prodigy child was given to the others, or a king of the others.

 

This thinking got me to the point of wondering where Euron might have come across such a baddie and the five forts seems as likely a place as any. I am wondering if there is anyone who might see this place as a good human meets other kind of place.

The "him" that worries you is Euron himself.  In the paragraphs leading up to the above bolded quote the dialogue between Euron and Victarion reads:

 

 

Euron:  "A King must have a wife, to give him heirs.  Brother, I have need of you.  Will you go to Slaver's Bay and bring my love to me?"

Victarion:  "You have sons."

Euron:  "Baseborn mongrels, born of whores and weepers."

Victarion  "They are of your body."

Euron:  "So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that's worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware."

 

 

[Net-Viper X]

31 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

The "him" that worries you is Euron himself.  In the paragraphs leading up to the above bolded quote the dialogue between Euron and Victarion reads:

 

 

Euron:  "A King must have a wife, to give him heirs.  Brother, I have need of you.  Will you go to Slaver's Bay and bring my love to me?"

Victarion:  "You have sons."

Euron:  "Baseborn mongrels, born of whores and weepers."

Victarion  "They are of your body."

Euron:  "So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that's worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware."

 

 

That's how I saw it too. The "him" is interchangeable with "a King" and he is referring to himself as a King in that conversation.

To make an heir worthy of a King, I need a different woman.