Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

[wolfmaid7]

1 minute ago, Sly Wren said:

True--but Ned's dream closely associates Lyanna's death with the fight at the tower in the Red Mountains. 

And closely associates Lyanna's screams, blood, and rose petals with the fight itself. 

So, Ned could have brought Lyanna back from elsewhere, but really seems like it has to be a place/situation closely associated with the men at the tower

I have to disagree with that on the basis of Martin's SSM warning that this is a dream and that our dreams aren't always literal.The only thing that we are certain of is that the elements share space in Ned's dream. Put under a microscope we have an issue.

1. Ned's waking and dream account doesn't mesh.Its not a matter of pieces missing they don't seem to be connected once we compare Ned's dream to his waking recollection.

2. If he and Howland were the only two that rode away from the tower alive then we have another problem with regards to who "they" were that found Ned holding Lyanna.So,Ned and Howland killed them?

In the end Ned's dream is doing as dreams do.Elements real and symbolical shared that space in his head but outside of that it doesn't flow on closer inspection...To me anyway.

[Sly Wren]

13 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I have to disagree with that on the basis of Martin's SSM warning that this is a dream and that our dreams aren't always literal.The only thing that we are certain of is that the elements share space in Ned's dream. Put under a microscope we have an issue.

1. Ned's waking and dream account doesn't mesh.Its not a matter of pieces missing they don't seem to be connected once we compare Ned's dream to his waking recollection.

2. If he and Howland were the only two that rode away from the tower alive then we have another problem with regards to who "they" were that found Ned holding Lyanna.So,Ned and Howland killed them?

In the end Ned's dream is doing as dreams do.Elements real and symbolical shared that space in his head but outside of that it doesn't flow on closer inspection...To me anyway.

Whoops! I phrased my point poorly.

I do think Lyanna could be in the tower.

Or in Starfall--the next place we know Ned went in direct consequence of the fight.

Or perhaps in another place closely associated with the men Ned fights.

That's my point--something about the start of that fight makes Ned associate it with Lyanna's scream, her rose petals, and a blood-streaked sky.

So, I don't think Lyanna can be just anywhere. 

[Black Crow]

I prefer to keep things simple here and in all honesty whether Starfall figures in this or not, the fight at the tower is significant in some way and we really have no reason to doubt that Lyanna died there or somewhere close by.

What tends to get overlooked in the debate is another very simple question which must surely point to the answer:

Why Dorne?

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

True--but Ned's dream closely associates Lyanna's death with the fight at the tower in the Red Mountains. 

And closely associates Lyanna's screams, blood, and rose petals with the fight itself. 

So, Ned could have brought Lyanna back from elsewhere, but really seems like it has to be a place/situation closely associated with the men at the tower. 

Lyanna couldn't have both screamed and be so weak/faint as to be barely able to whisper. I think Ned is mixing up his memories of Lyanna and Ashara together. What is more likely is that they died similar deaths or that the two scenes were so eerily similar visually as to give Ned deja vu.

[Runaway Penguin]

What si clear about the fight is that it did happen. So... There has to be reason for fight and for Kingsguard to be there. hence... It would be Rhaegar's baby in there. Dayne might have broken his oath to father a child - but he would not protect it as a royal blood and besides, he would not need to. "Hey Ned, sorry, Lyanna is there and the kid is mine. I deserted the KG and convinced those other dudes too. Wanna see your sis? Come on."

So what really makes sense is... The tower contains Rhaegar's kid and a mother. Now does it make sense for her to be Ashara? Nope, not really. We know who Rhaegar showed interest in. 

And what happened to the kid? Well, "Promise me, Ned"... I doubt Eddard Stark would give away either his bastard or his sister's son to the unknown - it would make it impossible for him to protect him from Robert. So most likely kid connected with the fight is Jon.

Don't really see other scenarios that would explain why it was necessary to fight the Kingsguard.

[Regular John Umber]

23 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lyanna couldn't have both screamed and be so weak/faint as to be barely able to whisper. I think Ned is mixing up his memories of Lyanna and Ashara together. What is more likely is that they died similar deaths or that the two scenes were so eerily similar visually as to give Ned deja vu.

 

 You can scream one minute and only be able to whisper the next, if you're near death or have just given birth. Much could have been happening to her physically in the intervening minutes.

[Regular John Umber]

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I have to disagree with that on the basis of Martin's SSM warning that this is a dream and that our dreams aren't always literal.The only thing that we are certain of is that the elements share space in Ned's dream. Put under a microscope we have an issue.

1. Ned's waking and dream account doesn't mesh.Its not a matter of pieces missing they don't seem to be connected once we compare Ned's dream to his waking recollection.

2. If he and Howland were the only two that rode away from the tower alive then we have another problem with regards to who "they" were that found Ned holding Lyanna.So,Ned and Howland killed them?

In the end Ned's dream is doing as dreams do.Elements real and symbolical shared that space in his head but outside of that it doesn't flow on closer inspection...To me anyway.

 

 "Only two lived to ride away" refers specifically to those involved in the fight. It does not preclude any other people being present.

[Tucu]

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't even think Ned told Lady D anything with regards to bringing Lyanna back from Dorne."That" conversation most likely never happened.I think she assumed it that based on what people thought they knew at the time.As we know Ned always just let people draw their own conclusions and go with it.

We have no reason to believe that Lady Dustin was lying about that conversation with Ned about her husband death. Maybe he left out some details, but it matches Ned's memories (not dreams) about the outcome of the fight at the tower of joy.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 

 You can scream one minute and only be able to whisper the next, if you're near death or have just given birth. Much could have been happening to her physically in the intervening minutes.

If she had a fever it would taken days from the origin of the injury to developing the fever, thus the weakness from fighting infection, which would not allow for screaming. If she was giving birth shortly upon Ned's arrival she could scream, but she wouldn't have developed a fever yet unless you are asserting that Ned stayed with her for several days while she grew increasingly weak and feverish?

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I prefer to keep things simple here and in all honesty whether Starfall figures in this or not, the fight at the tower is significant in some way and we really have no reason to doubt that Lyanna died there or somewhere close by.

What tends to get overlooked in the debate is another very simple question which must surely point to the answer:

Why Dorne?

Yes, why dorne?

I'm not sure that the Tower of Joy was anything other than an ancient watchtower located strategically at the Princes Pass for military purposes. If Ned and Howland were able to tear it down; I think it's likely to have been in a broken down condition in the first place; rather than a habitable location for a pregnant woman about to give birth accompanied by attendants whomever they might be.  Rhaegar may have camped there at some point and called it the Tower of Joy for other reasons. 

That Edric Dayne tells Arya that he and Jon were milk brothers nursed by Wylla; would place Jon at Starfall; Ned's next destination after the ToJ.

Arya assumes that he means that Wylla is Jon' mother; but he doesn't tell her the rest of the story. He only tells her that his aunt said that Ned and Ashara were in love with each other; before Arya shuts him down. Edric also expresses the sentiment that perhaps he shouldn't have said anything.  In Sos Arya VIII; Harwin fills in some of the detail:

"I'm not afraid," she said.  "That boy Ned said ..."

"Aye, he told me.  Lady Ashara Dayne.  It' an old tale, that one.  I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned hr horse around.  "I doubt there's any truth to it.  But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady,, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor.  There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that?  Spring had come, or so they thought and neither of them was pledged."

"She killed herself, though," said Arya uncertainly.  "Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea."

"So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "but that was for grief, I'd wager.  She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning." He shook his head. "Let it lie,, my lady.  They're all dead, all of them.  Let it lie ... and please when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."

Letting it lie, or letting the world believe that someone is dead to the world is a theme that is picked up with Bran and Coldhands.  Sam must take an oath three times not to speak of Bran;  to let the world believe the boy is dead so nobody comes looking for him.  And so we have three children with dubious parentage who could be associated with Dorne or Lyanna and Ashara: Jon, Danaerys and Aegon.

If Ned found Lyanna at Starfall dying of fever; the smell of blood and roses in the room, something he associates with a bed of blood in his dream; could it be that Lyanna was the woman who threw herself from the tower in grief.  'Ashara's' body was never found and Lyanna's bones were taken back to Winterfell.  Ashara is in a sense 'disappeared'.

Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle tells Brienne an interesting story about the fight on the Trident:

FfC Brienne VII:

"Why did you give up knighthood?"

"I never chose it.  My father was a knight, and his before him.  So were my brothers, everyone.  I was trained for battle since the day they deemed me old enough to hold a wooden sword.  I saw my share of the, and did not disgrace myself.  I had women too, and there I did disgrace myself, for some I took by force.  There was a girl I wished to marry, the younger daughter of a petty lord, but I was my father's thirdborn son and had neither land nor wealth to offer her ... only a sword, a horse, a shield.  All in all, I was a sad man.  When I was not fighting, I was drunk.  My life was writ in red, in blood and wine."

It could be said that Rhaegar was in the same position as Elder Brother.  He couldn't marry the women he loved and could only offer a sword, horse and shield:  Arthur Dayne; Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower, who vowed to protect his women and their children.

To my mind, these are the possiblities:

1) Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara: Given the Stark bastard look; associations with the dawn sword hinting at blood ties.

2) Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara: Given her separate upbringing in Dorne in the house with the red door and lemon tree. Her fluency in Valerian and the discrepancies in her early memories. Recalling Ned's statement that he would rather entrust a child to a pit viper than Tywin Lannister.  She looks like she could be Ashara's daughter (Barristan Selmy) and has Rhaegar's temperment (Jorah Mormont).

3) Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna:  The boy who must remain dead and hidden to the world and who dies his hair blue to honor his mother (Septa Lamore).

ETA:

The story of the Dornishman's Wife and the Northman's Wife; inversions of each other. Ned tastes the Dornishman's daughter (Ashara) Rhaegar's wife.  Rhaegar in turn tastes the Northman's daughter (Lyanna) Robert's wife.  

Both Ashara and Lyanna jump from a tall tower; one in reality and one as a fiction; both are dead to the world. 

 

 

 

 

[Sly Wren]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Why Dorne?

Yes--and especially the Red Mountains, filled with the ancient Stony Dornish that the World Book specifically says are very similar to the Vale mountain clans. All descended from First Men. Plus, Jon tells us that the Northern hill clans fight with very inferior weapons--rocks, clubs, etc. But the tribe champion? Only fights with a greatsword.

Martin's made links between these three groups of people and and tied them all the way back tot he original battle for the Dawn. 

Makes me think it's very likely the Stony Dornish are as ket to defeating the Others and the Starks are.

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lyanna couldn't have both screamed and be so weak/faint as to be barely able to whisper.

Agreed.

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think Ned is mixing up his memories of Lyanna and Ashara together.

Why Ashara? Why not associating Lyanna with the fight since he "hears" her voice and sees the rose petals?

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

What is more likely is that they died similar deaths or that the two scenes were so eerily similar visually as to give Ned deja vu.

But Lyanna dies in a bed of blood according to Ned. And Ashara's body is never found after her alleged tower suicide, according to  an SSM. So, how would Ned be able to conflate seeing both of them die if the manners of death are so different?

Seems much more likely that Ned thinks of Lyanna as screaming as the fight starts because something about that fight horrified her.

[wolfmaid7]

I sense we are going to get caught up in another page upon page of toj debate.What's true is that this is a dream.It doesn't tell us when or where the true elements within it happened in relation to each other. It is a dream a point that the author has mentioned.

Case in point Mel's vision of the towers by the sea getting swamped by a tide.Does it tell when does it tell where.No,but it didn't stop conclusions being drawn.Plus,does it really give us who Lyanna's baby daddy is? I don't think so.

Sly wren has started us off with looking at other aspects of the debate on some of the topics  that i think we should focus on that really hasn't been given enough time in conversation.

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

What si clear about the fight is that it did happen. So... There has to be reason for fight and for Kingsguard to be there. hence... It would be Rhaegar's baby in there. Dayne might have broken his oath to father a child - but he would not protect it as a royal blood and besides, he would not need to. "Hey Ned, sorry, Lyanna is there and the kid is mine. I deserted the KG and convinced those other dudes too. Wanna see your sis? Come on."

Agreed on a lot of this.

But also, if the kid they are protecting is Lyanna's, the fact that they fight first and don't try to negotiate at all is. . . bizarre. At least try to negotiate when you are so very badly outnumbered and all your help is gone. If you fail, then you can still fight--it's a no risk move to at least try to make a deal.

Or, they could be protecting another woman and child entirely--Rhaegar's child by another women. The child he looks at in the House of Undying: Dany. And whose daughter does Dany look like? Ashara--close in Rhaegar's family circle as Elia's lady in waiting. Close in Rhaegar's circle as Arthur's sister. Trustworthy and known for the "careful" Prince and his plans.

As for "in there"--could be in the tower. Or could be further down the Pass in Starfall and the KG have ridden out to head off the enemy, as the Stony Dornish have a history of doing to repel invaders--and Arthur is Stony Dornish.

4 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

So what really makes sense is... The tower contains Rhaegar's kid and a mother. Now does it make sense for her to be Ashara? Nope, not really. We know who Rhaegar showed interest in. 

But Rhaegar's "interest" in Lyanna--the novels and the World Book make it VERY clear that the giving of that rose crown is NOT romantic. It was seen at the moment of the giving as an insult.

And the Bael the Bard story makes if VERY clear that the leaving of the blue roses was a MASSIVE insult. Not romantic. Not loving. The stolen Stark maid in the Bael Tale isn't even mentioned until after she's taken--the main point of the whole exploit is two men fighting over a grudge. The Stark maid is just a pawn.

So, the books have made as strong case that Rhaegar's gift of the crown was NOT romantic in the least. 

Whereas when we see Rhaegar talk of wanting a third child, he looks at Dany. And potentially at someone else in the room--which would fit if he was talking to Ashara. 

4 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

And what happened to the kid? Well, "Promise me, Ned"... I doubt Eddard Stark would give away either his bastard or his sister's son to the unknown - it would make it impossible for him to protect him from Robert. So most likely kid connected with the fight is Jon.

Agreed--I think Jon is Lyanna's and that Ned wants to protect him.

But "connected to the fight"--the last thing Ned sees before the fight is Arthur Dayne, holding Dawn aloft. And the ONLY person in the dream Ned shows emotion for is Arthur--Ned speaks to him sadly. And AS they came together, Ned hears Lyanna screaming. 

If Arthur is the father of Lyanna's child, her lover, then her scream at the moment the fight starts makes a lot of sense--she would have been horrified when she learned of what happened. 

4 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Don't really see other scenarios that would explain why it was necessary to fight the Kingsguard.

@Black Crow has a theory that doesn't require defense. 

But if they are defending someone, one way or another, the fact that they make no attempt to negotiate with Ned is bizarre.

But if they can't negotiate with Ned, if the person they are protecting is NOT Lyanna and her kid but another woman and Lyanna just ended up with them--as Arya "ended up" with Yoren (sworn brother) and with the Brotherhood without Banners (Sworn Brothers to a dead king) or even as Sansa ended up with Baelish--if the KG are defending someone not related to Ned, that would explain why they don't even try to negotiate.

They can't negotiate--they've got no leverage. So, they can only fight.

[LynnS]

I also think that Dany's vision of Rhaegar. Elia and Aegon in the HoU is interesting.  What is suggests to me is that Rhaegar's first born is Aegon by Elia, his second born is Dany and the third son is born after Dany.  Jon is older than Dany.  Varys and Illyrio are involved with hiding and manoevering  both Dany and Aegon but not Jon.

Then there is Alfie Allen's Luke Skywalker comment.  This reminds me of Tyrion's nightmares about the Shrouded Lord, his father.   I suspect this comment about Jon will turn out to be something similar.

[wolfmaid7]

Again to me all this is kind of moot and irrelevant as to who Jon's parents are.....All that need  be mentioned is the KGS

"far away" statement.

Let me bite, let's say by the slim chance Lyanna is in the tower ( still don't think she was) if they took her,rescued her etc she could have already been preggers.These are the types of questions that make this whole toj aspect just pointless.There can and will always be a counter that makes perfect sense.The answer to who the parents are isn't in Lyanna's location because that can change for many reason as we have seen with Sansa and Arya. At best that's where she ends up.

[Runaway Penguin]

Dany is too young by quite some months, plus her birth had witnesses. Timelines do not match. Jon is same-ish age as Robb. Timelines do match. In either case you would end up one kid short.

 

If Lyanna was not there, but further in Dorne, Kingsguard can just send Ned away and tell him she's not there. If Dayne is the father, there is no honor bound reason to be there and fight. Also, Rhaegar would be the ultimate wingman if he did let go kingdom to ruin just to cover the fact his bro eloped with Lyanna. If Dayne is the father and Lyanna is there, it makes no sense for the Kingsguard (3 of them) be there.

If Ashara and Lyanna is there and Ashara bears the Targ child, her story is a complete fabrication - and "Promise me, Ned" does not really make sense. Why would Ned then present Jon as his son and not as son of Lyanna and Dayne? Plus they can just let Ned see Lyanna while keeping him from Ashara.

Basically all attempts to make the plot more convoluted are... Not convincing. They do not make sense from storytelling or real world perspective.

[Sly Wren]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I also think that Dany's vision of Rhaegar. Elia and Aegon in the HoU is interesting.  What is suggests to me is that Rhaegar's first born is Aegon by Elia, his second born is Dany and the third son is born after Dany. 

Aegon is his first born son, yes. But Rhaenys is first born overall, no? So, when he looks at Dany and says "there must be one more," seems like he only needs one more at that point--when he looks at Dany. And she feels a strong emotional connection--"sweet sadness"-- to him. Whereas when she saw Aerys in the previous "scene," she feels no such sweetness. Instead, Drogon shrieks and digs his claws into her.

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jon is older than Dany.  Varys and Illyrio are involved with hiding and manoevering  both Dany and Aegon but not Jon.

Agreed.

[Sly Wren]

55 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Sly wren has started us off with looking at other aspects of the debate on some of the topics  that i think we should focus on that really hasn't been given enough time in conversation.

Sorry to get off topic.

Okay--here is my list again.

So, on Robert, what are you thinking is the narrative and thematic sense of his being Jon's father?

 

[Melifeather]

If the point of this exercise is to debate parentage versus Lyanna's location, then we're being asked to walk a very slim tightrope, because the tower of joy is an important element in sorting through the clues.

I happen to think Ashara and Lyanna traded places, but not of their own accord. The two women have similar features and may have been able to pass for each other if seen at a distance.

I believe there is evidence to suggest that Rhaegar was setup as a patsy and that he never was involved in the abduction. I do not believe in a cliched romance between a prince and a lady, but I do find a plot to undermine Rhaegar more believable when we have the great houses of Lannister, Tully, Stark, Baratheon, and Arryn building alliances in an effort to overthrow a king who had become unbearable, with one of the men also wanting his lion's revenge.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Aegon is his first born son, yes. But Rhaenys is first born overall, no? So, when he looks at Dany and says "there must be one more," seems like he only needs one more at that point--when he looks at Dany. And she feels a strong emotional connection--"sweet sadness"-- to him. Whereas when she saw Aerys in the previous "scene," she feels no such sweetness. Instead, Drogon shrieks and digs his claws into her.

 I like the idea that Dany is Ashara/Rhaegar's daughter and she is seeing the vision through Ashara's eyes. But in the timeline of events and your argument that there is grudge match between Ned and Rhaegar over Ashara; it seems possible to me that she was pregnant with Ned's child first and Dany followed.  So subjectively, Dany is the second born and one more is needed.