Between Sansa and Daenerys, who would make the better ruling Queen?

[khal drogon]

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So Dany's and Viserys' life wasn't bad just because they were left alive?

What Dany and Viserys has to do with it. You talked about how she destroyed their life. I talked about the stupidity of them destroying it further.

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You mean the people who died from pale mare or the people who sold themselves to slavery?

Or the people who are not them because there are a lot of them.

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Yet it was never illegal. I am not saying that it was morally right I am saying that it was never illegal. Incest  is disgusting and illegal in Westeros yet you don't seem to have a problem with that.

Legal or illegal is about their own law written by them. If their law said they could kill whoever they want for entertainment or treat human like cattle they could. Doesn't mean others should leave them just like it. Since it involves people who are not from that culture forcibly taken and made it live according to their rules.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, khal drogon said:

What Dany and Viserys has to do with it. You talked about how she destroyed their life. I talked about the stupidity of them destroying it further.

When someone's life is destroyed they will do whatever might made it better. If they thought that they would be saved by becoming slaves, the fact that they were alive doesn't mean that Dany's war hadn't destroyed their lives.

4 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Or the people who are not them because there are a lot of them.

Which means nothing. By your logic because the Westerosi were better without the Targs, what happened to the Targs were ok.

5 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Legal or illegal is about their own law written by them.

Because it's common knowledge how a country's laws are written from foreigners.

7 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Since it involves people who are not from that culture forcibly taken and made it live according to their rules.

The Westerosi were forced to accept abominations born of incest as their rulers because their rulers' culture was allowing incest. But again you don't seem to have a problem with that. Once again double standards.

Dany killed children for something that their families did which was a part of their culture and legal in their city and after that she took money from the people who sold themselves to slavery because she had destroyed their lives since she felt that conquering and ruling their city while she had no idea how to rule was the right thing to do.

[khal drogon]

31 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

It is perfectly reasonable to tax transactions that happen under your rule, whatever they are. Dany fought as hard as she could against slavery, but like you said, in the end she had to concede to the world she lived in.  In Astapor no children under 12 were killed as has been proven 10000 times on this forum, in the books and confirmed by the WOIAF app.  And the only teenagers killed were those wearing the slaver garb which was the main source of income in Astapor for most of its citizens, certainly the ones in the slaver Tokars. Who on their own were responsible for the deaths of countless children and puppies.  There is no argument here to condone the slavers of Astapor, even the teenagers.  If killing children is ones highest concern then it is obvious what Dany did (even if a few pre-teens/teens were killed) was making the death toll of children drop enormously by ending the slaver trade wheel there, thus she should be supported not criticized for that act.

If I remember correctly even allowing slave trade of those who are willing is one of the compromises to stop the Harpy killings. If she didn't compromise it would lead to more disasters too. Then she not only has struggling economy and disgruntled citizens but also there will be murders. The former two will cause disastrous consequences. She did and had to take the least bad route there.

[khal drogon]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Dany killed children for something that their families did which was a part of their culture and legal in their city and after that she took money from the people who sold themselves to slavery because she had destroyed their lives since she felt that conquering and ruling their city while she had no idea how to rule was the right thing to do.

Where did you get the idea that I don't have problem with incest? Don't twist and put words in my mouth.

[khal drogon]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Dany killed children for something that their families did which was a part of their culture and legal in their city and after that she took money from the people who sold themselves to slavery because she had destroyed their lives since she felt that conquering and ruling their city while she had no idea how to rule was the right thing to do.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Where did you get the idea that I don't have problem with incest? Don't twist and put words in my mouth.

Then you would had been ok if someone would kill the abominations born of incest for their parents’ actions.

3 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Don't do that. It's not safe.

[khal drogon]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Then you would had been ok if someone would kill the abominations born of incest for their parents’ actions.

Again putting words in my mouth. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Again putting words in my mouth. 

You are saying that killing people for doing something that it was morally wrong yet legal was ok,

I think that you willingly close your eyes to what I am saying, which is what Dany does too. I am not saying that slavery is morally right or that slavers shouldn’t been punished. I am saying that you shouldn’t punish someone for what his family did when was legal. If you want to punish the slavers first you have to make slavery illegal and then when someone breaks the law you punish them.

[khal drogon]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You are saying that killing people for doing something that it was morally wrong yet legal was ok,

I think that you willingly close your eyes to what I am saying, which is what Dany does too. I am not saying that slavery is illegal or that slavers shouldn’t been punished. I am saying that you shouldn’t punish someone for what his family did when was legal. If you want to punish the slavers first you have to make slavery illegal and then when someone breaks the law you punish them.

That's a vicious circle because she has to break their power to get into a position to legally outlaw something.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

That's a vicious circle because she has to break their power to get into a position to legally outlaw something.

How she breaks the circle with genocide and mass murdering children? She doesn’t, she just proves that she is just a monstrous tyrant. I would say that this is what is expected from an abomination born of incest. Maybe killing all those who were born of incest is the right way to remind people how it’s illegal.

[khal drogon]

6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How she breaks the circle with genocide and mass murdering children? She doesn’t, she just proves that is just a monstrous tyrant. I would say that this is what is expected from an abomination born of incest. Maybe killing all those who were born of incest is the right way to remind people how it’s illegal.

Yeah a person's lifestyle choice and their parents sexual choice are totally comparable. Now you are judging people born from same-blood parents? How dare you?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, khal drogon said:

Yeah a person's lifestyle choice and their parents sexual choice is totally comparable.

How the children of the slavers are to blame for what their parents did? Again, I believe that a ruler who at least isn't dumb would had seen how mass murdering and genocide just creates more enemies. The families of the people she had killed would hate her and they would had conspired against her at the first chance they would had, which is something that happened.

1 minute ago, khal drogon said:

Now you are judging people born from same-blood parents? How dare you?

I find incest sickening.

[El Guapo]

Why do people even bother trying to debate rationally with JQC?  It is a fruitless exercise and just a complete waste of your time.

[khal drogon]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How the children of the slavers are to blame for what their parents did? Again, I believe that a ruler who at least isn't dumb would had seen how mass murdering and genocide just creates more enemies. The families of the people she had killed would hate her and they would had conspired against her at the first chance they would had, which is something that happened.

This defense works when you take slaves entirely out of picture. More dead children and more dead puppies are way better I think.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Why do people even bother trying to debate rationally with JQC?  It is a fruitless exercise and just a complete waste of your time.

Are personal attacks the only thing you can contribute to the discussion? Obviously. So you might want to keep your opinions also known as personal attack, about other posters to yourself since it has nothing to do with the thread.

3 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

This defense works when you take slaves entirely out of picture. More dead children and more dead puppies are way better I think.

Again I am not saying that slavery was right, I am saying that it wasn't illegal in order to be treated as illegal. If she wanted to chance the society, genocide was the wrong way. The only way a society could change is by education and laws. Teach them that slavery is both illegal and wrong and when someone breaks the laws punish him accordingly. The fact that there is a group like the sons of the Harpy and the fact that her council at Astapor has been overthrown prove that her way of killing everyone she wants without changing the system is wrong.

[khal drogon]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Again I am not saying that slavery was right, I am saying that it wasn't illegal in order to be treated as illegal. If she wanted to chance the society, genocide was the wrong way. The only way a society could change is by education and laws. Teach them that slavery is both illegal and wrong and when someone breaks the laws punish him accordingly. The fact that there is a group like the sons of the Harpy and the fact that her council at Astapor has been overthrown prove that her way of killing everyone she wants without changing the system is wrong.

I am glad that Martin didn't write about Saint Dany.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

26 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

I am glad that Martin didn't write about Saint Dany.

Me too.  Everyone wishes to rewrite Martin's books with Dany stopping in the middle of her conquest of Slavers Bay to go to college, or to suddenly declare laws in Astapor??? If it were that easy, then the slaves would have just made laws against slavery already, and I'm sure the super sweet and morally sound Astaporians would have listened and followed all the laws without complaint. Makes zero sense.

[Lord Varys]

Those Ghiscari people aren't really important. They are more or less faceless and nameless. We don't even know how many people died at Astapor nor do we know whether the men Dany crucified didn't deserve it.

In general one should note that mostly the ruling classes of Astapor and Meereen suffered from Daenerys, not the commoners. She commanded that tokar-wearers be killed on sight, not just random people.

The ruling classes would make up only a small percentage of the actual population of Astapor and Meereen. And if things are to change in those cities they have to be killed all, root and stem. Else there won't be any change (nor would there be any peace).

It would be different if Dany didn't intend to change the lifestyle of the Ghiscari elite (the Conqueror didn't try to introduce slavery into Westeros after the Conquest nor did he try to outlaw knights, tourneys, or the Faith of the Andals). Then she could compromise. But the way things are she can't. That was the lesson she learned in ADwD. Upon her return, all the people who plotted against her will burn.

@Jon's Queen Consort

You should rethink your opinion on incest. We are no longer living in a superstitious age. Our biology makes it very unlikely that we are actually physically attracted to (biological) siblings but there is no reason why we should criminalize the small percentage of people who actually enjoying consensual sex with their siblings (never mind whether it is straight of gay sex). Parents and grandparents should certainly not sexually abuse their young children, of course, but there is also no reason why an uncle or aunt who is attracted to a niece or nephew roughly in her own age should not be able to enter into such a relationship. And cousin marriages are only frowned upon in weirdo countries.

We have very good means of birth control these days, after all. Not to mention that that state should not regulate the sex life of its citizens (it also doesn't legally forbid mentally disabled people to have sex and conceive children, or does it?). The risk of hereditary diseases is not only high among incest couple but many others as well, and nobody demands that my girlfriend and I are likely to produce completely healthy children not suffering from a birth defect before we have sex.

If an incest couple as inherited very good genes the children from such a union should be perfectly healthy. Incest in itself doesn't produce sick children.

[The Fattest Leech]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Jon's Queen Consort

You should rethink your opinion on incest. We are no longer living in a superstitious age. Our biology makes it very unlikely that we are actually physically attracted to (biological) siblings but there is no reason why we should criminalize the small percentage of people who actually enjoying consensual sex with their siblings (never mind whether it is straight of gay sex). Parents and grandparents should certainly not sexually abuse their young children, of course, but there is also no reason why an uncle or aunt who is attracted to a niece or nephew roughly in her own age should not be able to enter into such a relationship. And cousin marriages are only frowned upon in weirdo countries.

We have very good means of birth control these days, after all. Not to mention that that state should not regulate the sex life of its citizens (it also doesn't legally forbid mentally disabled people to have sex and conceive children, or does it?). The risk of hereditary diseases is not only high among incest couple but many others as well, and nobody demands that my girlfriend and I are likely to produce completely healthy children not suffering from a birth defect before we have sex.

If an incest couple as inherited very good genes the children from such a union should be perfectly healthy. Incest in itself doesn't produce sick children.

WOW! Did you just try to validate incest in both ASOIAF and THE REAL WORLD just to prop up the Targaryens??? Yup, yes you did.

I see Targophilia is running strong these days

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

WOW! Did you just try to validate incest in both ASOIAF and THE REAL WORLD just to prop up the Targaryens??? Yup, yes you did.

I see Targophilia is running strong these days

This has nothing to do with the Targaryens. Simply with my view of what should be legal or not (and not with my love for my non-existing sister - I only have brothers, and I'm pretty straight ;-)). There is really no reason why incest should be taboo or even forbidden (and punishable) by law in a society not ruled by superstition.

I was reacting to post like 'I find incest sickening'. I don't see any reason why it should even be another person's business with whom people have sex with if the whole thing is consensual. Incest can be sexual abuse (just like any other sexual act can) but it doesn't have to be.

Over here in Germany we actually had a case where a father of a bunch of children was actually thrown in jail because the mother happened to be his biological sister whom he met only later in life. This kind of thing should not be punished by law, it is just as simple as that.