Between Sansa and Daenerys, who would make the better ruling Queen?

[DireWolfSpirit]

I wouldnt aprove of Sansa being Queen of anything.

[khal drogon]

1 hour ago, INCBlackbird said:

Dany crucified 163 people, how is this even a question? At this point I think anyone who isn't a psycho would be better then Dany. Also, I think that at this point Sansa would be quite competent.

Why that is worse? Crucifixion is a form of execution practiced in that world. Why choosing that form of execution say anything about her rulership skills? And this is a world where executions happen by burning, crow cages and drowning and torture like putting people in ice cells.

[INCBlackbird]

43 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Why that is worse? Crucifixion is a form of execution practiced in that world. Why choosing that form of execution say anything about her rulership skills? And this is a world where executions happen by burning, crow cages and drowning and torture like putting people in ice cells.

I don't know if you're aware but when people are crucified nails are hammered through their wrists and feet and they are hung up like that until they die. it's one of the most horrible ways to be killed and Dany does that to 163 random people because she was angry, in the maintime making her self into a hypocrite and lowering herself to their level. because yeah crucifying someone because they (or someone they are associated with) crucified someone, that's really gonna fix the problem...

I know that Dany means well, but she get scary when she's angry. I mean... the crucifying isn't the only thing, there's the torturing and all the killing. I expect any leader in any kind of world that I would support to be better than that, otherwise I can't support them.

[SeanF]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 2:26 PM, Britisher said:

Daenerys created the conditions which allowed for Cleon to come into power in Astapor - she ruined the city's economy overnight by abolishing the slave trade; she murdered a good chunk of the city's the ruling elite, replacing them with a flimsy proxy government without an army and she caused an exodus in the city's population (in other words she created a massive power vacuum in the city). Most of the city's former slave population who decided against marching with Daenerys would be infirm, unarmed, disorganised and (potentially) more hospitable to the slave trade/more resentful of Daenerys conquest. She subsequently left the city in poverty and ruin, and then she turned her back on the mess she created allowing for the Yunkai and their allies to butcher the city's population. 

Did Daenerys make life in Meereen any better? No. Her arrival resulted in a huge, unsustainable increase in the city's population; economic collapse through her abolition of the slave trade (the city's only industry) and war. That point is laughable: slavery is rife across Essos. Daenerys conquest of Slaver's Bay has done little to prevent the Dothraki from enslaving people and selling them over to Yunkai, Lys and Myr.

Lord Ghael is in no position to criticise Dany though.  He is someone who backed Cleon's rise to power, and Cleon took a series of appalling decisions.  Dany can fairly be criticised for leaving Astapor in a condition in which someone like Cleon could rise to power, but Cleon's supporters can hardly criticise Dany for their own dreadful behaviour.

WRT Meereen, there is considerable evidence that the former slaves do  think their position has improved, despite material problems.  They can no longer be executed, raped, prostituted, whipped, or forced to fight by their former owners.  The Great Masters have hardly lost out economically either.  They have their lands and pyramids still.  The group that has lost out are free people below the Great Masters, who face competition from the influx of freed slaves, and suffered in the sack of the city.

Incidentally, Meereen has a huge agricultural economy (there are references to estates in the hinterland) which is at least keeping the population fed, even as they suffer from economic blockade.

[SeanF]

41 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

I don't know if you're aware but when people are crucified nails are hammered through their wrists and feet and they are hung up like that until they die. it's one of the most horrible ways to be killed and Dany does that to 163 random people because she was angry, in the maintime making her self into a hypocrite and lowering herself to their level. because yeah crucifying someone because they (or someone they are associated with) crucified someone, that's really gonna fix the problem...

I know that Dany means well, but she get scary when she's angry. I mean... the crucifying isn't the only thing, there's the torturing and all the killing. I expect any leader in any kind of world that I would support to be better than that, otherwise I can't support them.

Dany has a vicious streak, without doubt.  At a very early stage in her career, she shows herself willing to put people do death very unpleasantly, if she thinks they deserve it.  But, this is true of quite a few prominent contenders for power in the series. 

[SeanF]

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 6:37 AM, Nictarion said:

How is a girl who grew up a beggar "spoiled?" Dany remembers being able to buy a sausage as a luxury. Viserys had to sell his mother's crown just so they could eat, ffs.

I have no idea what books some of you people read. 

One thing I'd really like to see is a short story/novella about Viserys and Dany's past life.

[SeanF]

Spoiler

 

Choosing between Dany and Sansa for Queen is almost impossible, as we've yet to see how Sansa performs in a position of leadership.

[INCBlackbird]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany has a vicious streak, without doubt.  At a very early stage in her career, she shows herself willing to put people do death very unpleasantly, if she thinks they deserve it.  But, this is true of quite a few prominent contenders for power in the series. 

Oh yeah definitly, I think the majority of the characters can be as cruel as Dany is, and if I think they would be or they show themselves to be I can't support them either. However, I think Sansa isnt one of them.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, INCBlackbird said:

Oh yeah definitly, I think the majority of the characters can be as cruel as Dany is, and if I think they would be or they show themselves to be I can't support them either. However, I think Sansa isnt one of them.

Sansa is a gentle person, much more so than Dany, but we haven't yet seen her in a position where she's ruling a territory, so we can't yet tell how she'd perform.

I find it hard to imagine Sansa ordering crucifixion as a punishment for anybody, but for all we know, she might prove to be too soft to be an effective ruler.

[INCBlackbird]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Sansa is a gentle person, much more so than Dany, but we haven't yet seen her in a position where she's ruling a territory, so we can't yet tell how she'd perform.

I find it hard to imagine Sansa ordering crucifixion as a punishment for anybody, but for all we know, she might prove to be too soft to be an effective ruler.

true, there's no way to know for sure, and I think that in the beginning of the story she'd definitly have been too soft and too naive, but she's grown a lot, she's learned a lot from Petyr, I think she could do it. i'd definitly prefer to give her a chance then Dany, cause Dany's shown herself to be capable of a lot of cruelty.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, INCBlackbird said:

true, there's no way to know for sure, and I think that in the beginning of the story she'd definitly have been too soft and too naive, but she's grown a lot, she's learned a lot from Petyr, I think she could do it. i'd definitly prefer to give her a chance then Dany, cause Dany's shown herself to be capable of a lot of cruelty.

Sometimes, Dany has come down too hard on people, and on other occasions, not hard enough.  On the evidence so far, I don't think she'd be a very good Queen, but it's early days.  Many people make mistakes early on in their careers.

But, one has to bear in mind, that a successful King or Queen has to be cruel, by our standards, to succeed.  Aegon I, Rhaenys, and Visenya were all cruel people, but they were cruel intelligently.  They inflicted horrors on people who resisted them, but welcomed into friendship those who submitted, and governed pretty justly.  Aenys I was nowhere near cruel enough, whereas Maegor was excessive.  One has to get the balance right.

[OuttaOldtown]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Sansa is a gentle person, much more so than Dany, but we haven't yet seen her in a position where she's ruling a territory, so we can't yet tell how she'd perform.

I find it hard to imagine Sansa ordering crucifixion as a punishment for anybody, but for all we know, she might prove to be too soft to be an effective ruler.

Sansa isn't so gentle and nice, from her first POV she looks down on small folk and is a bratty entitled girl. I find it easy to imagine that being born under different circumstances, like being sold and witnessing the cruelty of the Dothraki would've made her passionate about ending slavery.. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Sansa isn't so gentle and nice, from her first POV she looks down on small folk and is a bratty entitled girl. I find it easy to imagine that being born under different circumstances, like being sold and witnessing the cruelty of the Dothraki would've made her passionate about ending slavery.. 

Sansa comes over as being stupid and stuck-up, to begin with, but she matures.

[spauldo17]

It's definitely Dany without question.  She already has the ruling experience, the "name brand", she's firm but relenting when she needs to be.  She will follow through on threats even when she doesn't want to, which is needed in leadership. 

 

Sansa is a stuck up little girl, who has had everything handed to her in life.  She's always a victim and never takes initiative. 

[Britisher]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

1. Lord Ghael is in no position to criticise Dany though.  He is someone who backed Cleon's rise to power, and Cleon took a series of appalling decisions.  Dany can fairly be criticised for leaving Astapor in a condition in which someone like Cleon could rise to power, but Cleon's supporters can hardly criticise Dany for their own dreadful behaviour.

2. WRT Meereen, there is considerable evidence that the former slaves do  think their position has improved, despite material problems.  They can no longer be executed, raped, prostituted, whipped, or forced to fight by their former owners.  The Great Masters have hardly lost out economically either.  They have their lands and pyramids still. The group that has lost out are free people below the Great Masters, who face competition from the influx of freed slaves, and suffered in the sack of the city.

3. Incidentally, Meereen has a huge agricultural economy (there are references to estates in the hinterland) which is at least keeping the population fed, even as they suffer from economic blockade.

1. That doesn't excuse Dany's dreadful behaviour.

2. This cannot be over-stated: prior to Daenerys conquest Meereen's economy revolved around the slave trade. By abolishing the industry overnight and settling a significant number of former slaves in the city from Astapor and Yunkai Daenerys creates the conditions for mass poverty: this is unsustainable - the city has no trade and no industry which will inevitably result in a famine (killing thousands). Arguably mass poverty in Meereen has already supported the spread of the Bloody Flux. We know that some former slaves resent Daenerys, even those who once supported her conquest.

Daenerys could have adjusted the parameters of the slave trade in Meereen to allow for the fair treatment of slaves whilst gradually abolishing the industry altogether - allowing time for Meereen's economy to expand (rather than collapse entirely).

3. "Huge agricultural economy" - what?! How does estates in the hinterlands translate to a huge agricultural economy? IIRC the Masters of Meereen actually burned Meereen's hinterlands and Vineyards, forcing Daenerys to storm the city or march elsewhere...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think the comparaison is unfair to both characters.

There is no "who would" here; the one is a ruling queen and the other is nothing remotely close to it. A "learning to lead" type of re-read focusing on Sansa would be painfully short (because that's not her arc).

There's a record of facts regarding Daenerys' rulership, upon which readers can base their assessements. Mine tends more to the negative, overall, though I appreciate good intentions and some positive qualities. Sansa, too, has some qualities that could be great for a ruler (like, being mostly cool-headed) and some others that are very negative (like, her tendency to "adjust" reality to her comfort level), but since her own record is blank, a reader is free to imagine which of her character's aspects would manifest in her ruling. In my opinion Sansa might, under certain very favourable conditions, to eventually become a decent ruler (but I suppose that the same could be said for Dany as well, so there's that).

Based on the above, the comparaison is unfair to Daenerys, because her failings are juxtaposed to a character's who doesn't have any (because she's never tested, but still). It's equally unfair to Sansa, because her (lack of) accomplishments are compared to a character's who has had, since early in the story, an immense amount of power that Sansa has never had not even a chance to wield.

To be frank though, I wouldn't choose either to decide the fate of me and mine.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Britisher said:

1. That doesn't excuse Dany's dreadful behaviour.

2. This cannot be over-stated: prior to Daenerys conquest Meereen's economy revolved around the slave trade. By abolishing the industry overnight and settling a significant number of former slaves in the city from Astapor and Yunkai Daenerys creates the conditions for mass poverty: this is unsustainable - the city has no trade and no industry which will inevitably result in a famine (killing thousands). Arguably mass poverty in Meereen has already supported the spread of the Bloody Flux. We know that some former slaves resent Daenerys, even those who once supported her conquest.

Daenerys could have adjusted the parameters of the slave trade in Meereen to allow for the fair treatment of slaves whilst gradually abolishing the industry altogether - allowing time for Meereen's economy to expand (rather than collapse entirely).

3. "Huge agricultural economy" - what?! How does estates in the hinterlands translate to a huge agricultural economy? IIRC the Masters of Meereen actually burned Meereen's hinterlands and Vineyards, forcing Daenerys to storm the city or march elsewhere...

There's no famine in Meereen, or anything approaching famine.  The Bloody Flux came with the refugees from Astapor. However, the influx of former slaves has resulted in wage rates falling sharply.  And, the City is hard hit by blockade and siege (however half-hearted).  Neither the blockade nor the siege can be blamed on Dany.

We are told that there are "thousands" of slaves working on estates in the countryside.  Whether the workers are slave or free, those estates still provide crops and livestock, and presumably, generate a surplus sufficient to feed a very large city.  That's a big agricultural economy (indeed, in almost any medieval State, agriculture provided the bulk of economic output).  Meereen's territories extend at least 150 miles upriver, so there is still a lot of land that wasn't burned by the Great Masters.  From what we're told of the region, I expect that the climate sustains the kind of agriculture you'd find in North Africa/Southern Spain.

WRT slavery, one can pass laws for more humane treatment of slaves, without abolishing the institution.  However, there is no way at all that one can trade in slaves humanely.  Dany could have just taken over the Meereenese slave trade, and probably made a lot of money out of it, but I think it's to her credit that she stopped it.  I appreciate that will cause economic hardship to some inhabitants of Meereen, but that's tough.

[spauldo17]

1 hour ago, Britisher said:

1. That doesn't excuse Dany's dreadful behaviour.

2. This cannot be over-stated: prior to Daenerys conquest Meereen's economy revolved around the slave trade. By abolishing the industry overnight and settling a significant number of former slaves in the city from Astapor and Yunkai Daenerys creates the conditions for mass poverty: this is unsustainable - the city has no trade and no industry which will inevitably result in a famine (killing thousands). Arguably mass poverty in Meereen has already supported the spread of the Bloody Flux. We know that some former slaves resent Daenerys, even those who once supported her conquest.

 

I find it hugely ironic that your argument against Danaerys is that she ended slavery (a crime against humanity) which might in turn cause the economy to collapse.  Whether Sansa or Dany is the better leader can be debated, I guess, but I know for sure you'd be an awful one.  Can you imagine proposing to your people that you are going to keep slavery because you are afraid it may negatively affect the economy?

Bottom line- as with any culture based on a practice, there will always be a sharp down swing after you abolish the practice, followed by a steady rise once you figure out what will take its place.  Abolishing slavery was the humane and right thing to do, if the economy suffers short term then so be it. 

If your big knock against her is that she ended slavery I think that makes her a pretty good queen

[Britisher]

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

I find it hugely ironic that your argument against Danaerys is that she ended slavery (a crime against humanity) which might in turn cause the economy to collapse.  Whether Sansa or Dany is the better leader can be debated, I guess, but I know for sure you'd be an awful one.  Can you imagine proposing to your people that you are going to keep slavery because you are afraid it may negatively affect the economy?

Bottom line- as with any culture based on a practice, there will always be a sharp down swing after you abolish the practice, followed by a steady rise once you figure out what will take its place.  Abolishing slavery was the humane and right thing to do, if the economy suffers short term then so be it. 

If your big knock against her is that she ended slavery I think that makes her a pretty good queen

Ironically that is the main theme of the Meereen story arc: a conflict of morality and reality.

[spauldo17]

5 minutes ago, Britisher said:

Ironically that is the main theme of the Meereen story arc: a conflict of morality and reality.

I agree with you that it is the main moral struggle for Danaerys, but that doesn't change the fact that saying she is a poor leader because she abolished slavery is ridiculous. 

in America the economy used to be built on slavery as well (just like meereen), then someone came along and decided to change that (Lincoln), though many people (even some slaves) objected to the idea (meereen people), it was widely known that without the free labor slavery provided the economy would take a hit (just like in meereen) but Lincoln did it anyways because he knew it was right.  Than man is regarded as a hero, and one of the greatest leaders America has ever known.  Not to mention that eventually the economy righted itself and boomed.

 

And you say it makes her a poor leader.  I think Lincoln makes my point for me