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Marcus corvinus

Between Sansa and Daenerys, who would make the better ruling Queen?

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Both Sansa and Dany are actually moving towards the position of queen in tv series and perhaps in the book as well. Its not fanfiction as much as it is legit speculation. But between them who would the better queen. Let's check their pros and cons:

Dany

Pros:

1. She has a genuine sympathy for the common people. She loves the people sincerely, not like our 21st century politicians love people. And she has general willingness to do better by them. e.g: her treatment of the freedmen in mereen, the refugees of Astapor.

2. She is not afraid to fight. She's not a wuss like show tommen or baelor targareyn. She's sacked astapor, mereen and defeated yunkai. She's not afraid to go to battle and shed some blood; just as a medieval ruler should be.

3. She's very beautiful and captivating. Even in our modern times physical beauty is a definite plus for politicians( Bill clinton, Sarah polin, JFK). People admire and seem to think more positive of attractive people. They are more accepting of a beautiful person than of an average or ugly one. This is even more so for a woman. 

And furthermore in the medieval and ancient times, a beautiful visage was thought to be a symbol of divine favor with the gods.

4. She has a degree of low cunning. She showed this when she got the sellwords drunk in yunkai and turned on them.

Cons

1. She has an extreme sense of entitlement. This is owed to lot to viserys's bad parenting. He filled her to brink with tales of Targareyn exceptionalism and how they had a divine right to the throne. This has spoiled her to the point that she thinks that the crown belongs to her and everyone owes her their loyalty. This is shown in her interactions with barristan and jorah where she acted as if they were born to obey her. She does not really consider their circumstances at all first and thinks that starks, baratheons and all rebels are just '' greedy dogs '' who usurped her brother's crown.

2. She's poor at reading the situation. She acts on impulse too often and fails to see the larger picture. She misreads the situation when she crucifies the masters, she misreads when she makes peace with the slavers and marries hizdahr, she misreads it when the refugees come crawling to her door.

3. She's extremely poor as far as strategic thinking is concerned. She leaves Yunkai unsacked, it should be painfully obvious to anyone that these oligarchic slave lords in this mercenary filled continent would come after her. She's played for an utter fool with the offer of marriage to hizdahr and peace with the slavers. There's an ever growing army at my door that keeps growing larger every day; plus an even larger army of volantenes and new ghis are en route as we speak. Shouldn't it be obvious to anyone that the yunkish are just stalling for time?

She just ignores Cleon. She should've at least formed some sort of military alliance with him as he's the only one nearby who has the same enemies as her, no matter how repulsive he is.

She makes no quick effort to build an army through thousands of willing conscripts to prepare in the case of an invasion, which was inevitable and already brewing as she planted olive trees.

4. She's not stern enough. Sure she has a kind heart and all but a ruler has to be hard if he/she is to remain a ruler. She lets plague infected refugees into her starving city. Doesn't pollute the wells around the city during the retreat and just gives in to to heartbreak at the brutal murders of freedmen and unsullied. Imagine what Tywin lannister, tyrion or even Robert would've done in her place.

5. She knows nothing about westeros.

6. She trusts people too much.

 

 

Sansa

Pros:

1. She's well versed in the westerosi court culture. She has a first hand experience of court intrigue, marriage politics and family dynamics of the nobility. She knows actually know about her kingdom.

2. She too like Dany is kind hearted. But whether she will love the common people or her love will just extend as far as the nobility like knightly chivalry is doubtful. Cat was a snob after all.

3. She's gotten over her old habit of trusting anyone that smiles to her. She now knows how to read people. Combined with her social skills, knowledge of court and general charm, she could be very powerful socially.

4. She too like dany is very beautiful with all the advantages that brings. Though perhaps not as beautiful as Dany as men all around don't fall to her feet as with dany.

5. She now has some far sight and organizational capacity as seen when she arranges SR's tourney and lifeguard. 

6. She has a kingdom on her back. Assuming she becomes queen on the iron throne with a stark as lord of winterfell, she will have the north as her ally in perpetuity. One of the targareyn problems was that they had no solid base on westeros to lean upon push came to shove. All they had was the crownlands. If sansa was queen she'd have the army and resources of the crownlands and the north combined. A potential army of 35,000 men without even calling upon any other lord!

7. She has the potential and perhaps will become in the coming books a master seductress. LF is guiding her to that point. This is a definite advantage when negotiating with lords(see shiera seastar if you don't believe me).

Cons

1. She has absolutely zero grasp or knowledge of military matters.

2. She's too soft of heart. Its heard to see her ordering the execution of hundreds of knights and reducing their families to poverty.

3. She lacks the charisma to lead an army or bind a large group of nobles to her will.

4. There is a chance she could become emotionally involved with people she should not: hostages, handsome rogue knights, funny sinister girls( taena merryweather, myranda royce)

5. She'd have hard time keeping rogues and rebels in line.

 

 

 

 

 

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One of the reasons that Cersei is considered a terrible ruler is that she doesn't consider the advice from Kevan, Jaime, Genna and Pycelle, and relies on lickspittles. There's a quote from the TV series that Tywin says that goes something along the lines of "Wise kings listen to their advisors until they come of age, and wiser kings continue to listen to them long after."

Sansa and Daenerys are both still very young, so I think they would need advisors to help them rule.

In the books, Sansa will defer to people she trusts on matters she admits she doesn't know about. In the beginning, she doesn't know very much (fault lies with her parents for only teaching her how to be a proper lady), so she's very easily manipulated. But as the series progresses, she learns more, and while she does still listen to people like the Tyrells or Petyr, she does form her own opinion first, and displays initiative in certain matters. She's also beginning to learn who can and can't be trusted. I think that if Sansa were to have good advisors, like a small council composed of Yohn Royce, Jon Snow, Willas Tyrell, etc., she could rule quite effectively, since she would have advice in areas she wasn't as familiar with, and would be able to judge what is good advice vs. bad advice.

Daenerys on the other hand, seems to routinely ignore her advisors, and just go ahead and do what she wants. She only seems to take advice when she doesn't have any ideas herself. If Daenerys arrives in Westeros, ignores every single advisor who comes to her, she will not win, or will become a brutal queen. The one thing she has over Sansa in terms of advisors, is that she is better at choosing them, but that could be attributed to luck not wisdom.

So I think Sansa would be a better Queen.

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5 hours ago, Marcus corvinus said:

Dany

2. She's poor at reading the situation. She acts on impulse too often and fails to see the larger picture. She misreads the situation when she crucifies the masters, she misreads when she makes peace with the slavers and marries hizdahr, she misreads it when the refugees come crawling to her door.

3. She's extremely poor as far as strategic thinking is concerned. She leaves Yunkai unsacked, it should be painfully obvious to anyone that these oligarchic slave lords in this mercenary filled continent would come after her. She's played for an utter fool with the offer of marriage to hizdahr and peace with the slavers. There's an ever growing army at my door that keeps growing larger every day; plus an even larger army of volantenes and new ghis are en route as we speak. Shouldn't it be obvious to anyone that the yunkish are just stalling for time?

4. She's not stern enough. Sure she has a kind heart and all but a ruler has to be hard if he/she is to remain a ruler. She lets plague infected refugees into her starving city. Doesn't pollute the wells around the city during the retreat and just gives in to to heartbreak at the brutal murders of freedmen and unsullied. Imagine what Tywin lannister, tyrion or even Robert would've done in her place.

6. She trusts people too much.

 

I disagree with these strongly, I think you need to consider what her goals were and what she actually may have achieved in Meereen.

Although she initially set out to gather an army and return to Westeros, she ultimately decided that had to wait until she had stabilised Meereen and helped the former slaves genuinely achieve their freedom rather than immediately being put back into slavery once she leaves.

To do that she actually had to change an ingrained and persistent culture which is no easy feat, but one in which I think she was largely successful. She read the situation well, she compromised and gained a genuine peace, not just within Meereen but also with the Yunkish, and she did it by holding back on her more violent instincts and with diplomacy. I realise that this is a controversial view but I am completely convinced that it will be shown to be correct once winds comes out. IMO Daenerys' storyline in Dance was very subtle and contained a lot that a casual read doesn't pick up.

I would strongly recommend reading  Who poisoned the locusts . Imo it is the best essay I have read on ASOIAF and really changed how I initially viewed the situation.

 

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2 hours ago, Makk said:

I disagree with these strongly, I think you need to consider what her goals were and what she actually may have achieved in Meereen.

Although she initially set out to gather an army and return to Westeros, she ultimately decided that had to wait until she had stabilised Meereen and helped the former slaves genuinely achieve their freedom rather than immediately being put back into slavery once she leaves.

To do that she actually had to change an ingrained and persistent culture which is no easy feat, but one in which I think she was largely successful. She read the situation well, she compromised and gained a genuine peace, not just within Meereen but also with the Yunkish, and she did it by holding back on her more violent instincts and with diplomacy. I realise that this is a controversial view but I am completely convinced that it will be shown to be correct once winds comes out. IMO Daenerys' storyline in Dance was very subtle and contained a lot that a casual read doesn't pick up.

I would strongly recommend reading  Who poisoned the locusts . Imo it is the best essay I have read on ASOIAF and really changed how I initially viewed the situation.

 

Culture changes don't happen over night, it takes generations; generations have to start forgetting about what was.  Tyrion even says that most slave owners treat their slaves like most lords treat their servants in Westeros.  A tween has to hold back her "violent instincts"?  Not a great sign in a family renowned for being mad.  Most started out as "normal" and progressively became worse, ex. her dear old dad.

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I'd rather go with Margaery. I think both Sansa and Daenerys would make terrible queen regnants. Sansa would be a puppet queen. Dany is more of a conqueror than a ruler.

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Dany

Pros

1. She is an excellent general. So far, she is undefeated. Can any other Westori sovereign say the same?

2. She inspires loyalty. Jorah became a double agent for her. The unsullied will never betray her.  Missendai rather serve the Dragon Queen than to return home. Dany got two companies of mercenaries to switch sides. Barry the old crossed a continent to serve her. Etc, etc, etc.. Most people who meet her seem to enjoy serving her. 

3. She is one of the most empathetic and moral nobles. How many Westori nobles would forgo their claim to the Iron Trone to save slaves? People on this board diss her for this very reason. If more people in the US were like Dany, slavery would have been abolished years before the end of the civil war.

4. Dany has the best claim to the Iron Throne  Until the mummer's dragon proved to be the real deal, Dany is the Dragon's heir  

Cons

1. She is a targ. There is a good chance that she might go mad.

2. She has horrible taste in men. Dario......really Dany? 

3. She is a woman. The last time a woman sat the Iron Throne, the realm bled and burned as it never had before. 

 

Sansa

Pros

1. Has blood ties to three of the seven regions of Westeros. If seated on throne her allies would be potentially Winterfell, Riverrun, and the Vale. In addition to the Stormlands, that's the alliance that defeated the Targaryens. 

Cons.

1. No military experience 

2. Absolutely no claim to throne......unless she marries a king, and even then she wouldn't rule in her own right. 

3. IMO. She is more entitled than Dany. She looked down on her bastard brother and her sister for associating with the small folk. I can't imagine her fighting a war to free slaves. 

4. She is a woman  see Dany...

As as you can tell, I'm halfway in love with the Dragonqueen. I can't wait until she sets out for Westeros.  All hail Danaerys Stormborn, Queen of the Andals, The First Men, and the Rhonyar, Queen of Meereen, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Khaleesi of Dothraki Sea, Breaker of Chains, and Slayer of Lies. 

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Daenerys will make the better Queen.  Dany has leadership skills, she is very brave, she is one of the best players of the game, and she is very intelligent.  She demonstrates her ability to lead and to communicate during her first meeting with Belwas.  She proved her skills at strategy and deception when she freed the Unsullied from the evil Kraznys mo Naklos.  She can maintain her composure and proved that by playing the mercenaries along, getting them drunk, and attacking them, minimizing her losses.  Dany would make for an awesome poker player. 

Sansa is not even fit to rule a lemonade stand.

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Daenerys is the best leader , she is so fucking smart and cunning , Sansa is just stupid little girl

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On 26.8.2016 at 8:25 AM, Winter's Cold said:

I'd rather go with Margaery. I think both Sansa and Daenerys would make terrible queen regnants. Sansa would be a puppet queen. Dany is more of a conqueror than a ruler.

This, I agree completely. 

 

But out of Sansa and Dany, I'll give Sansa the benefit of the doubt. She still has much to learn, but I'm confident she will do that. 

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This is a very interesting post - I agree with most of your points, however though I would like to add:

On 8/25/2016 at 10:05 PM, Marcus corvinus said:

Sansa

Cons

4. There is a chance she could become emotionally involved with people she should not: hostages, handsome rogue knights, funny sinister girls( taena merryweather, myranda royce)

This is rubbish: Daenerys constantly fantasies about various men - Daario Naharis in particular (a dangerous sellword captain). She also briefly considers having intercourse with Jorah Mormont and Xaro Xhoan Daxos: a man who she, rightfully, distrusts and knows to be a homosexual... Daenerys takes Irri, her handmaiden, for her lover in one of her A Storm of Swords chapters.

Let's compare this with Alayne's excerpt from the Wind's of Winter when she first meets Harrold Hardyng:

Spoiler

Ser Harrold Hardyng looked every inch a lord-in-waiting; clean-limbed and handsome, straight as a lance, hard with muscle. Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose. Joffrey was comely too, though, she reminded herself.   A comely monster, that’s what he was.  Little Lord Tyrion was kinder, twisted though he was.

Throughout the excerpt she sees Harrold for who he really is beyond his appearance. I'm not sure the same could be said of Daenerys, particularly where Daario is concerned. 

Another point: I would argue that Daenerys tends to become - in turns - mad and unpredictable when angry (eg: when she has Shavepate do "whatever is necessary" to a merchant and his two daughters to gather information about the Sons of the Harpy / her reaction to Jorah's betrayal), perhaps foreshadowing the fact that she has the "taint" (in reality I'm pretty certain that this would be a biological certainty). As Ser Daemon states:

Quote

"We cannot know"..."We can only hope."

 

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One crucial advantage I think Dany would have over Sansa is the fact that people would be more drawn to her as a ruler than they would Sansa. Because not only does Dany have more credibility as a ruler from experience but she is already a living legend from her conquests as well as all the power she has gained from a very short span of time from virtually nothing. People are more receptive towards following people like Dany (because she has at least put more effort into ruling) than Sansa who has yet to make a name for herself. So when it comes to having a broader influence as a ruler, at this stage Dany would top Sansa.

All anybody really knows about Sansa is that she is Ned Starks's daughter who has been a hostage for the past few years to the Lannisters and was abused and beaten and just a political chess piece. That's not to say people would follow her and listen to her, although like Littlerfinger they might see her as a pawn who they can easily manipulate. As queen she would not have the same level of respect and influence Dany may get by default of having better credentials to rule. That means her would be subordinates won't take her very seriously and may try to doublecross her or undermine her efforts for their own gain. Then again like many young savvy statesmen, she could just use that to her advantage.

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Sansa. Easily. She was born and bred to be a lady of Westeros. She understands the customs. She has made friends in the Reach and Vale. And she is learning the harsher aspects of politics from the most cunning man in the Seven Kingdoms.

Dany has an army that can conquer, has utterly failed at ruling, has no understanding of Westerosi culture, has an entitlement about the land she wants to rule, is bringing in foreign invadors, and has no real allies.

 

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52 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Sansa. Easily. She was born and bred to be a lady of Westeros. She understands the customs. She has made friends in the Reach and Vale. And she is learning the harsher aspects of politics from the most cunning man in the Seven Kingdoms.

Dany has an army that can conquer, has utterly failed at ruling, has no understanding of Westerosi culture, has an entitlement about the land she wants to rule, is bringing in foreign invadors, and has no real allies.

True. Also Dany has no plan for the future, she wants to bring savages to Westeros with no plan of what they will do and how she will keep them under control.

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On 8/26/2016 at 10:39 PM, The Pimp that was Promised said:

Dany

Pros

1. She is an excellent general. So far, she is undefeated. Can any other Westori sovereign say the same?

2. She inspires loyalty. Jorah became a double agent for her. The unsullied will never betray her.  Missendai rather serve the Dragon Queen than to return home. Dany got two companies of mercenaries to switch sides. Barry the old crossed a continent to serve her. Etc, etc, etc.. Most people who meet her seem to enjoy serving her. 

3. She is one of the most empathetic and moral nobles. How many Westori nobles would forgo their claim to the Iron Trone to save slaves? People on this board diss her for this very reason. If more people in the US were like Dany, slavery would have been abolished years before the end of the civil war.

4. Dany has the best claim to the Iron Throne  Until the mummer's dragon proved to be the real deal, Dany is the Dragon's heir  

Cons

1. She is a targ. There is a good chance that she might go mad.

2. She has horrible taste in men. Dario......really Dany? 

3. She is a woman. The last time a woman sat the Iron Throne, the realm bled and burned as it never had before. 

 

Sansa

Pros

1. Has blood ties to three of the seven regions of Westeros. If seated on throne her allies would be potentially Winterfell, Riverrun, and the Vale. In addition to the Stormlands, that's the alliance that defeated the Targaryens. 

Cons.

1. No military experience 

2. Absolutely no claim to throne......unless she marries a king, and even then she wouldn't rule in her own right. 

3. IMO. She is more entitled than Dany. She looked down on her bastard brother and her sister for associating with the small folk. I can't imagine her fighting a war to free slaves. 

4. She is a woman  see Dany...

As as you can tell, I'm halfway in love with the Dragonqueen. I can't wait until she sets out for Westeros.  All hail Danaerys Stormborn, Queen of the Andals, The First Men, and the Rhonyar, Queen of Meereen, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Khaleesi of Dothraki Sea, Breaker of Chains, and Slayer of Lies. 

# first about slavery and the usa, i'm not an american, i'm a south asian.

But i still strongly disagree with your statement. If something can be done and can bear profit, it will be done. Slavery lost its value 18th and 19th centuries with the advent of Adam smith's new economic theories, the decline of feudalism and nobility, nationalism and most importantly the industrial revolution.

All this factors made slavery useless and burdensome. Why go into all the burden of having slaves when those slaves add far less to your economy than normal workers? A slave has no purchasing power at all, so he or she no matter how much labor they put in can't consume the products they're making. Thus demand is low, production is low, profit is low and further industrial growth is low. 

And early economists, statesmen and industrialists took note of this. see henry ford for example.

Furthermore nationalism made it unfashionable to bring in other ethnic groups into your country and as education levels rose and a conscious, educated and nationalistic middle and lower class evolved from the old peasantry; the idea of business moguls bringing in slaves to artificially lower wages became more and more unfeasible. 

The bottom line is that slavery didn't die out due to the greatness of a few individuals like lincoln, it was an inevitability of time. The change of technology and society drove the institution to extinction. If Lincoln hadn't abolished slavery in 1860, it would've died out eventually anyway by the dawn of the 20th century due to the aforementioned reasons.

Its the same with feminism. The feminist movement didn't bring the government to its heels and ''freed'' women as the media likes to paint it. But rather the establishment of woman's rights, participation in the workforce and sexual liberty was an inevitable consequence of time and necessity.

The industrial revolution led to a shortage of workers, in order to fill that gap women had to be recruited. And with the advent of time the need for well educated workers rose rapidly as work became more and more cognitively demanding. Thus more women began entering higher education to serve the nation's economic needs. 

Due to technological advances women gained access to birth control and eventually due to all these factors became economically independent. Free sex and choosing their spouses inevitably followed.

This same pattern followed in countries that didn't have large militant feminist movements. Look at urban india, south korea, japan or turkey...

Every great change or revolution that happens in one age is the inevitable result of technological and its accompanied social change in the previous age.

The printing press ended the dark age and the oppression of the church. The advent of gunpowder ended feudalism and the tyrannical yoke of the nobility not great movement leaders.

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1 hour ago, Marcus corvinus said:

snip

Nice.

Slavery is unnatural and beneficial to no one, that's why it died.

Not to mention that a few great minds may have freed some, but they didn't change the world. Ghandi's protest helped my ancestors, but it was a reflection of the collective crisis. Colonists were fighting a losing battles with indentured slavery all over. The masses followed because they wanted to survive and retain some benefits. Today, the sugar cane fields still bring in money for certain companies, but the workers sometimes own the land (so they get a piece of it),  and they're free (and mentally fit to work as a result) which makes for better business. Plus the country is still Commonwealth, so free trade. 

S6 

Spoiler

Tyrion's attempt to let the Harpy's phase out slavery was smart and bold. Killing all slavers, like Dany wanted to do from the beginning, would have amounted to a form of genocide or cleansing. Unfortunately the men Tyrion negotiated with were unable to add 2 and 2. 

The fact that Dany's the Breaker of Chains is supposed to be her biggest pro - a just and benevolent ruler. But then on the other hand, we have a former slaver as her confidant. Like Tyrion she prides herself on her good deeds and kindness, and strives to stand apart from the rest of her family. But she's very lacking in awareness.  That sense of entitlement is so dangerous, and her speech was pure conquerer.  But with people pledging their lives to her and treating her like a goddess when she was just 13/14, well I guess this is what happens. 

 

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Daenerys because she has actually been learning how to rule over the past few books. She's been pretty good at adapting, listening to advisers, and compromising. She's easily one of the if not the most charismatic leaders in the entire series. She's a damn good strategist and a brutal conqueror when need to be. She also has a strong moral code and a great desire to genuinely help and protect the people she is ruling. People can disagree with me but I'll never hate on her for trying to destroy slavery. It's an evil and repugnant institution. Saying it's just ingrained is the same bullshit defense people make for horrifying things in our own real world. I'm not buying the excuse in ASOIAF either. Did she go about it badly in the beginning? Yes, but she slowly adapted and has gotten better in ruling because of it

 

IMO all of these separate her from the rest of the characters in the book. This is probably a pretty unpopular opinion on this forum but I think even though she's not there yet, she has all the tools to be the best monarch in the series and is on her way there

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