Why the hell doesn't House Baratheon have a Valyrian Steel Sword?

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

It's said that over 200 valyrian steel swords exist in Westeros.

It's a bummer that one of the great house like the Baratheon doesn't have it, despite Orys baratheon descending from Valyria, and that the Durrandon didn't have one either.

The seemingly richest house in Westeros only had one, and couldn't afford more.

We also never heard about valyrian steel swords from other great houses like the Tyrell, Martell, Arryn, Tully, Greyjoy and Hoare.

It's such a huge flaw for GRRM's attempt at world building that doesn't make much sense.

No Ser.   It says there are over 200 VS blades in Westeros.  Granted that could mean swords, but you have to reconcile that little fact with known daggers and only 15 Named VS Swords in Westeros.  I love the swords, please pardon if I sound preachy.   I don't mean to.   The named swords keep adding up to 12 over time.  Brightroar was lost and somehow Truth is added to the mix, though no one has any real idea where it is in Westeros as it belonged to the Rogare Family in Lys.  Lamentation was lost in the storming of the dragon pits--I take that to mean it was destroyed.  Orphan Maker also seems to have disappeared around this time, but it isn't said to be lost.   So there were only 11 named VS swords for a while until the Targ swords, Blackfyre and Dark Sister disappeared during and shortly after the Blackfyre Rebellions.   Vigilance also hasn't been see for a long long time.  All in all, if Lamentation really was destroyed there were 11 named VS swords in Westeros.  Until Tywin got his hands on Ice and created Widows Wail and Oathkeeper.   Since Ice ceased to exist, the number of named VS swords in Westeros is restored to 12.   I don't think it's hair splitting.   We know of frickin' Little Finger's dagger and daggers are blades, but the swords seem to have names which makes them very very important.   Further, those missing swords, Truth, Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Vigilance and Orphan Maker will reappear--take it to the bank.   

It's not a flaw at all.   I've spent a lot of time studying and researching the named VS swords.  These swords wouldn't be special if all the great houses had them.  I think these swords tie into end game.   There need to be 12 swords and Jon & Sam wonder if VS isn't dragon glass.   Hmm, can you think of any instance 12 characters would have needed dragon glass in the old legends?   Well, that's my thinking anyway.   

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

Actually a good question. Let me add another point here.

Even presuming that Orys Baratheon had no VS sword, surely Argilac, the last Storm King, would have had one. Wouldn't he simply take his good-fathers sword after he killed him? He took his daughter, title and arms

Of course there is no way to prove it, but we are only given the 15 named VS Swords.   I have no reason to believe there were ever any others in Westeros.  And you prove the point nicely, if the last Storm King actually had VS, Orys most definitely would have kept it.   

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

Jamie's probably going to give the valaryn steal axe to gendry so they will have that.

The only VS axe I know of in Westeros is the Celtigars.   Now plenty of folks have intended to raid the Celtigars for that piece and other riches.   My friend is a serious researcher and she mentioned Euron raided the Celtigars.   I can't prove this at this point because I have to reread all the Greyjoy chapters and I wanted to post now.  Jamie gave his only VS away to Brienne.   He had Oathkeeper.   Robert's war hammer was not made of VS.  Do you know of another piece that's escaped me?  

[Duranaparthur]

Part of the thing is that VS swords seem to be very much valued as prestige trophies and family heirlooms, while having significantly less intrinsic worth as actual weapons and a massive hassle to actually buy, even back in the days of Valyria itself; as others have pointed out, a mace, spear, or hammer serves better against plated armor, and most everyone seems to prioritize the swords symbolism over their actual capabilities.

Consider; Jeor gives Jon Snow Longclaw at least in part because Jon's being fast-tracked to eventual Lord Commander and there's symbolism there, and while its treated as special, it's rightfully not treated as a total trump card. Consider; the only people who seem to practice looting enemies for VS are the Iron Born, and they're generally looked down on by everyone. Consider; Tywin gets two VS swords out of Ice, but has no intention of giving them to real warriors, but instead to a one handed man and psychotic and untrained man-child.

In the days before plate armor, VS no doubt provided a huge tactical advantage in a fight, but now their value is far more linked to the family ties they have. They're both too rare for all the Lords Paramount to have them, and not a practical enough investment for even Tywin Lannister to buy them, since most houses would probably only exchange their swords for immense gains in prestige, and that's not Tywin's game.

[Sensenmenn]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

The only VS axe I know of in Westeros is the Celtigars.   Now plenty of folks have intended to raid the Celtigars for that piece and other riches.   My friend is a serious researcher and she mentioned Euron raided the Celtigars.   I can't prove this at this point because I have to reread all the Greyjoy chapters and I wanted to post now.  Jamie gave his only VS away to Brienne.   He had Oathkeeper.   Robert's war hammer was not made of VS.  Do you know of another piece that's escaped me?  

Oathkeeper is going to become lightbringer and Jamie is probably going to weald dawn. However the Celtigars are a lannister banermen and from what we know they have never used it and if Jamie asks for it they might be willing to give it to him even if its for a price.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

Oathkeeper is going to become lightbringer and Jamie is probably going to weald dawn. However the Celtigars are a lannister banermen and from what we know they have never used it and if Jamie asks for it they might be willing to give it to him even if its for a price.

Ah, now I understand where you're coming from.   Thanks for the clarification.   I was sure I missed something.   

[OuttaOldtown]

The same reason they don't have a POV, George didn't give them one..

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't know what is so unbelievable after all from all the Great Houses as TWOIAF points out, the Arryns seem to be most connected with the Targs and they don't have a Valyrian sword.

Also 

On 26/8/2016 at 9:21 AM, JWittoBeast said:

They are LITERALLY FROM Valyria

They are not from Valyria, Orys was from Dragonstone.

On 26/8/2016 at 9:21 AM, JWittoBeast said:

Aegon's main supporters

Not quite true. During the war there was only one Baratheon, Orys who later married a Durrandon after killing her father, and used her sigil and words. The Baratheons as we know them today were not a House during Aegon's war.

[Nyrhex]

Orys was Aegon's bastard brother, and the Targs only had two swords, which were already at the hands of main-line Targs. He and his line also did not get a dragon, for the explicit reason that Aegon married his sisters (aside of plausibly incest being his fetish) - he wanted to keep the dragons, and the swords, in the main line.

A good question is why some of the kings before Aegon lacked VS swords, while smaller, far poorer houses, did own such weapons. The Durrandons specifically should have more reason than most to have such a weapon, given their relative closeness to Essos, and being far more involved in Essosi affairs than the other kingdoms. Poor world building, I can't see any other reason really. The swords by themselves are a massive ego-stroking, they are laughably over-priced for what they are, and the inherent risk in losing one would be massive. And yet it is still established in universe that houses would see themselves bankrupt than give up the weapons.

 

Oh and it would be named Fury, without a doubt. Strombringer is a good name, but Stormbreaker is another good name from canon, given as an Epithet to an un-named Baratheon who was known for his prowess, and possibly used by Stromlander exiles as a name for thier free company after the Dance of the Dragons (I say this because both names are from the world book, and the Stormlands have reason to produce many exiles at the end of the war. Perhaps Stormbreaker was a Baratheon who led them?).

[sweetsunray]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

There need to be 12 swords and Jon & Sam wonder if VS isn't dragon glass.   Hmm, can you think of any instance 12 characters would have needed dragon glass in the old legends?   Well, that's my thinking anyway.   

12 + 1

[RumHam]

13 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

Celtigars are a lannister banermen

No, they're sworn to Dragonstone. Lord Celtigar bent the knee to the Iron Throne after the Blackwater, if that's what you mean. But that's not the same thing. In any event if if Adrian wanted to give the axe to the Lannisters it's not clear that he had it with him. It may still be on Claw Isle. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

Jamie is probably going to weald dawn

Why? Why Jaime is going to take Dawn?

[Sensenmenn]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Why? Why Jaime is going to take Dawn?

Well Ravenous Reader said it best in the Jamie wielding dawn thread.

Quote

Indeed!  I like the sword having a mind of its own.  'He, or she, who pronounces the sentence shall swing the sword' becomes 'The sword who pronounces the sentence shall swing the man, or woman...'

For 'dramatically ironic' reasons, 'the sword of the morning/mourning' might well end up to be Jaime.  I know the cliche that people want it to be Jon or a 'real Dayne,' but I think GRRM's deconstructing such hackneyed tropes here.  My impression of his writing is that he's less concerned with trite, static definitions of 'worthiness,' instead finding his motivation in bending any rigid rules of paternity, inheritance and entitlements.  In other words, it's less a case of 'being' worthy than wading through a lot of 'unworthiness' on the way to 'becoming' worthy -- i.e. meeting the very definition of 'redemption arc.'  Moreover, GRRM is fond of 'bookending' his arcs, so endings are contained in their beginnings, and vice versa (aptly, he even put this adage in Ser Arthur Dayne's mouth...'now it begins/ends...'). 

To illustrate what I mean, let's go back to the beginning, when Jaime began his long (k)night's journey.  Remember, at the punctuation of his night's vigil, Jaime was knighted by Dayne, with Dawn, at dawn, after which he rose a knight -- the 'risen knight' a pun on the 'risen night' (as Dayne is a pun on Day).  Although counter-intuitive, considering we've been conditioned to seeing Jaime and Arthur respectively as figuratively night (sullied smiling knight=blackguard) and day (Dayne=white shining paragon), from a certain perspective it could be argued that Jaime as the rising sun/son is the dawn, as opposed to the long night!  Of all characters, Jaime is also the one who is most torn within himself, aware of his own conflict, and as such located at the fracture lines between black and white, dark and light, night and day, etc.-- so a switch should not be unexpected.  Dawn, after all, is a liminal state, neither day nor night.

In the process of being knighted, Dawn cuts him and Jaime's blood anoints the sword (introducing an additional dimension to the 'bleeding star').  This has to be significant in light of what we know about 'blood sacrifice' elsewhere.  Hence, Jaime is bound to that sword.  I posit that he will either wield it (or it him) or die by it, possibly both. The imagery of the 'risen (k)night' also evokes resurrection (which by implication entails a certain sacrifice, i.e. opposite movement represented in the tableau above by Jaime kneeling his knees raw and bloody), the movement of rising from the dead being particularly apt in Jaime's case considering he often refers to himself as spiritually dead inside 'when did I die...and become the smiling knight instead', etc. and in light of his 'redemption arc.'

 

Extrapolating the analogy, if Jaime is the smiling knight ('cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together' describes Jaime rather well) who wants the sword, it remains to be seen in which capacity Jaime shall indeed 'have it'!  

 

More of GRRM's sly humor... Jaime is one paradoxical step closer to filling the shoes of his mentor, now that he is essentially left-handed!  (with the severing of his red right hand, the same one which clung to Cersei's foot, the same which slew Aerys and pushed Bran from the tower, etc., Jaime has turned a symbolic corner...literally visualized by his turning back to Harrenhal, away from King's Landing and Cersei, in order to rescue Brienne using his left hand).  

 

Of all the times Ser Arthur Dayne is mentioned, it's noteworthy that it's Jaime who most often thinks of him (reflecting on what Dayne would think, say or do in any given moment), thus bringing Dayne's shade to light more frequently than any other.   More poetically stated, like his mentor -- with whom Jaime identifies most strongly in his heart of hearts (and considers a brother- and father-figure he can look up to without irony or pretension...so who's to say Jaime isn't a 'Dayne' in spirit if not in biology...) -- and like his eponymous sword, Jaime is in many respects a fallen star.

Also

Quote

No, they're sworn to Dragonstone. Lord Celtigar bent the knee to the Iron Throne after the Blackwater, if that's what you mean. But that's not the same thing. In any event if if Adrian wanted to give the axe to the Lannisters it's not clear that he had it with him. It may still be on Claw Isle. 

My bad I thought they were on an island off the coast of the westerlands sorry. But if Stanissides with reborn Jon after his failure to take winterfell there is still a chance for gendry to get the axe and who realy knows at this point.

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

Well Ravenous Reader said it best in the Jamie wielding dawn thread.

 

Dawn is a greatsword. Jamie is one hand short from being the Sword of the Morning.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

Well Ravenous Reader said it best in the Jamie wielding dawn thread.

Well that makes no sense. Also Dawn cannot wield Dawn for obvious reasons.

[Sensenmenn]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Dawn is a greatsword. Jamie is one hand short from being the Sword of the Morning.

The evidence is there for jamie wielding dawn and I'm sure there is plenty of evidence to support jamie geting a new hand but we have to wait for WoW to come out to see who is right about what.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

The evidence is there for jamie wielding dawn and I'm sure there is plenty of evidence to support jamie geting a new hand but we have to wait for WoW to come out to see who is right about what.

There is no evidence. Just someone's fan fiction.

[mediterraneo]

On 26/8/2016 at 11:19 PM, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

They have a legendary warhammer now

 

On 27/8/2016 at 0:10 AM, King Merrett I Frey said:

Question is who's 'they' now. Heh.

Well, "they" still have two Valyrian Steel swords now, even if Brienne holds one for the Baratheon king's uncle.
Oathkeeper and Widow's wail.

I accept that Oathkeeper could count as a Lannister or Tarth sword, though.

[sweetsunray]

43 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

The evidence is there for jamie wielding dawn and I'm sure there is plenty of evidence to support jamie geting a new hand but we have to wait for WoW to come out to see who is right about what.

You need two hands to wield a greatsword. Jaime has only one hand. Unless Qyburn can grow him a hand, Jaime will not be wielding Dawn. He may be one of the 12 VS bearers though + one hero with 2 hands who'll wield Dawn.

[Byfort of Corfe]

18 hours ago, Duranaparthur said:

 Consider; Tywin gets two VS swords out of Ice, but has no intention of giving them to real warriors, but instead to a one handed man and psychotic and untrained man-child.T

 

They're both too rare for all the Lords Paramount to have them, and not a practical enough investment for even Tywin Lannister to buy them, since most houses would probably only exchange their swords for immense gains in prestige, and that's not Tywin's game.

With all due respect when Tywin has Ice reforged he doesn't know that Jaime has been crippled and he obviously plans on Joffrey using his sword for a lot longer that a day.  But as for cost Tywin points out to Tyrion that he has tried to acquire swords but that Houses are much more willing to give up Maiden Daughters than their precious Valeryian steel.