Why the hell doesn't House Baratheon have a Valyrian Steel Sword?

[theblackdragonI]

I don't think it's that weird that House Baratheon don't have one. They are a bastard house originally, and by the time they became powerful there was a shortage of Valyrian steel in the world. We know Aegon loved Orys as his only friend and brother, but as a whole the Targaryens are a very proud family who see themselves above everyone else, they inbreed for crying out loud. They certainly wouldn't give up any of their swords, and to take the swords of their vassals would only alienate them.

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Jaak said:

We are not told that. Orys Baratheon was a minor figure before he got Argella, but he had a surname. And he was rumoured to be a bastard - but only rumoured, not acknowledged. He was Orys Baratheon, not Orys Waters like a Dragonstone bastard would be. So, there would have been other Baratheons - like Orys´ official father.

Are we certain Dragonstone was part of the realm then?   I was thinking they were set apart for the curious Targs, that they had nothing to do with anywhere else in Westeros, certainly not their politics.   I'm further convinced after reading the history Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys simply couldn't take all the mainland jackassery anymore and conquered to have some peace for a change.   If Dragonstone was set apart Westerosi surnames for bastards wouldn't apply.   

[GallowsKnight]

At the end of the day, VS swords aren't really an essential item to own. Until the Others come, they're basically a lighter, always sharp sword. Very handy sure. But it won't save you from being trampled to death or shot with an arrow or killed by multiple opponents. It's not like they're shardblades from the Stormlight archive (basically a lightsaber but better).

And swords no matter how fancy will go missing. Whether on an expedition like Brightroar or disappear in a violent mob like Orphan-Maker. They'll get knocked out of hands or picked up by a common soldier looting who won't have any idea of their worth and squirrels it away in an attic. 

So they become priceless heirlooms. But despite being priceless the Lord of Bear Island can't sell his because he'll never live it down. Even if I don't know a 100,000 gold dragons from Tywin Lannsiter might let him actually build a castle that isn't made of wood and dirt.

Fantasy is full of named magic swords. But in real life a lord would have the same attitude to swords Jaime Lannister has to horses. Sure you might like your current one, but it's bound to be broken or lost at some point.

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

At the end of the day, VS swords aren't really an essential item to own. Until the Others come, they're basically a lighter, always sharp sword. Very handy sure. But it won't save you from being trampled to death or shot with an arrow or killed by multiple opponents. It's not like they're shardblades from the Stormlight archive (basically a lightsaber but better).

And swords no matter how fancy will go missing. Whether on an expedition like Brightroar or disappear in a violent mob like Orphan-Maker. They'll get knocked out of hands or picked up by a common soldier looting who won't have any idea of their worth and squirrels it away in an attic. 

So they become priceless heirlooms. But despite being priceless the Lord of Bear Island can't sell his because he'll never live it down. Even if I don't know a 100,000 gold dragons from Tywin Lannsiter might let him actually build a castle that isn't made of wood and dirt.

Fantasy is full of named magic swords. But in real life a lord would have the same attitude to swords Jaime Lannister has to horses. Sure you might like your current one, but it's bound to be broken or lost at some point.

You brought up a good point.   Tywin actually tried to purchase VS swords from 3 (I think it's 3) impoverished houses.   He was hell bent to have one.   Now we know the Corbray heir married a (gasp) merchant's daughter who came with a big fat dowry, but his brother would not part with Lady Forlorn.   Outside of Gawen Westerling I can't think of any other lord of Westeros who married that low.   Creepy Lyn Corbray still has Lady Forlorn, but that's all he's got apparently.   We assume Tywin approached House Mormont and was turned away.   What I mean is do the Mormonts consider themselves to be impoverished?  Of the other swords known to be in play, Ice, Heartsbane, Red Rain and Nightfall could any of these houses be considered impoverished?   Would Tywin approach the Iron Born?   So I'm thinking it's 1 of the others playing off screen, maybe Orphan Maker or Truth.   I'm sure something's missing from this, but I still can't come up with 3 impoverished houses between the swords we actually know the whereabouts of.  

[Dornish Neck Tie]

I think the forging of Lightbringer, which may be the first Valyrian sword, holds some clues.

It seems a near certainty that blood sacrifice is required to forge Valyrian steel. Recall the line about Valyria's magic being rooted in "blood and fire." However, this does not really account for the near priceless value of Valyrian steel swords today. The small value placed on the average human life by Valyrians is proof enough of this. I think what's important about Nissa Nissa's sacrifice is that she was the forger's wife, i.e. someone likely very important to him. (Kind of recalls the prices demanded by those seeking the aid of the Many-Faced God...but that's off topic) Back in the days when Valyrian swords were still being forged, I think the price demanded by smiths of the intended wielders was, in addition to monetary payment, something far more costly and gruesome.

I want to call it "the Iron price," but haven't found anything convincing enough to play that game...

To answer the original question, there were definitely lords who were unable to come up with the money at the time, but I think some were simply unwilling to pay such a cruel additional price to have these swords forged.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

It could have been lost during the second  invasion of Dorne .

[GallowsKnight]

38 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You brought up a good point.   Tywin actually tried to purchase VS swords from 3 (I think it's 3) impoverished houses.   He was hell bent to have one.   Now we know the Corbray heir married a (gasp) merchant's daughter who came with a big fat dowry, but his brother would not part with Lady Forlorn.   Outside of Gawen Westerling I can't think of any other lord of Westeros who married that low.   Creepy Lyn Corbray still has Lady Forlorn, but that's all he's got apparently.   We assume Tywin approached House Mormont and was turned away.  

What I mean is do the Mormonts consider themselves to be impoverished?  Of the other swords known to be in play, Ice, Heartsbane, Red Rain and Nightfall could any of these houses be considered impoverished?   Would Tywin approach the Iron Born?   So I'm thinking it's 1 of the others playing off screen, maybe Orphan Maker or Truth.   I'm sure something's missing from this, but I still can't come up with 3 impoverished houses between the swords we actually know the whereabouts of.  

I believe there's meant to be around 200 swords in Westeros. So there's probably a lot of swords we haven't been introduced to with minor houses. The Mormonts are poorer than other houses, but I don't think they'd consider themselves impoverished.

The other question is how much did Tywin offer for the swords? What is the real price on the swords? 

A few numbers for relevance. A gold dragon buys a set of armor in the Hedge Knight. I believe Selwyn of Tarth ransomed 300 dragons for Brienne from the Bloody Mummers. The prize for the Hand's Tournament was 40,000 dragons. Robert's debts to the Lannister were 3,000,000 dragons. Like where does it fit on that spectrum?

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Are we certain Dragonstone was part of the realm then?   I was thinking they were set apart for the curious Targs, that they had nothing to do with anywhere else in Westeros, certainly not their politics.   I'm further convinced after reading the history Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys simply couldn't take all the mainland jackassery anymore and conquered to have some peace for a change.   If Dragonstone was set apart Westerosi surnames for bastards wouldn't apply.   

Dragonstone, was indeed not a part of the Seven Kingdoms, it was an outpost of Valyria. Although it seems that Aegon had always had an interest in invading Westeros, what set this in motion was King Argilac reaching out to him, in hopes of establishing a buffer zone between his lands and those of Harren the Black. 

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Dragonstone had been the westernmost outpost of Valyrian power for two centuries.

 

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Yet even so, for the best part of a hundred years after the Doom of Valyria (the rightly named Century of Blood), House Targaryen looked east, not west, and took little interest in the affairs of Westeros.

 

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A common myth, oft heard amongst the ignorant, claims that Aegon Targaryen had never set foot upon the soil of Westeros until the day he set sail to conquer it, but this cannot be true. Years before that voyage, the Painted Table had been carved and decorated at Lord Aegon's command: a massive slab of wood, some fifty feet long, carved in the shape of Westeros and painted to show all the woods and rivers and towns and castles of the Seven Kingdoms.Plainly, Aegon's interest in Westeros long predated the events that drove him to war. As well, there are reliable reports of Aegon and his sister Visenya visiting the Citadel of Oldtown in their youth, and hawking on the Arbor as guests of Lord Redwyne. He may have visited Lannisport as well; accounts differ. 

 

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No king in Westeros was more feared than Black Harren, whose cruelty had become legendary all through the Seven Kingdoms. And no king in Westeros felt more threatened than Argilac the Storm King, last of the Durrandon—an aging warrior whose only heir was his maiden daughter. Thus it was that King Argilac reached out to the Targaryens on Dragonstone, offering Lord Aegon his daughter in marriage, with all the lands east of the Gods Eye from the Trident to the Blackwater Rush as her dowry.

 

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

I believe there's meant to be around 200 swords in Westeros. So there's probably a lot of swords we haven't been introduced to with minor houses. The Mormonts are poorer than other houses, but I don't think they'd consider themselves impoverished.

The other question is how much did Tywin offer for the swords? What is the real price on the swords? 

A few numbers for relevance. A gold dragon buys a set of armor in the Hedge Knight. I believe Selwyn of Tarth ransomed 300 dragons for Brienne from the Bloody Mummers. The prize for the Hand's Tournament was 40,000 dragons. Robert's debts to the Lannister were 3,000,000 dragons. Like where does it fit on that spectrum?

Timely.   I've been researching Tywin's attempts to purchase.   Sadly, this is from memory so I can't vouch for reliability here, but there is a clear estimate of VS Sword's value in here somewhere.    A Dragon Egg is said to be enough to buy an Army.  I believe The VS was said to be worth a "mountain of gold" but I'm not finding the exact quote.   In that there were only 12 swords in play at any given time and only 11 when Tywin was shopping, I'm thinking it it was somewhere more than 40K dragons and somewhat less than 3M dragons.  I did discover that Tywin offered to purchase long swords from lesser houses.  Longclaw is a bastard sword, predominately and repeatedly identified so.   For the sake of research I'm eliminating the Mormonts.   I'm not sure of the configuration of 3 swords but I doubt Tywin was after those anyway so by process of strict elimination I came up with 3 swords it could have been: Nightfall, Red Rain and Orphan-Maker. I am not sure about the Drumms, but the Harlaws wouldn't be considered impoverished.  Would they?  

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

 

Dragonstone, was indeed not a part of the Seven Kingdoms, it was an outpost of Valyria. Although it seems that Aegon had always had an interest in invading Westeros, what set this in motion was King Argilac reaching out to him, in hopes of establishing a buffer zone between his lands and those of Harren the Black. 

 

Before I gush I need to tell you I actually texted out your 19 19s catch.  That was great.   So thanks for reminding us that Dragonstone was indeed an outpost of Valyria thereby not likely to observe Westerosi bastard naming customs.  I was having a little bit of fun with literary license I took with the jackassery comment.   Nonetheless, your straight point is taken and noted.   

[Darkstream]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Before I gush I need to tell you I actually texted out your 19 19s catch.  That was great.   So thanks for reminding us that Dragonstone was indeed an outpost of Valyria thereby not likely to observe Westerosi bastard naming customs.  I was having a little bit of fun with literary license I took with the jackassery comment.   Nonetheless, your straight point is taken and noted.   

Heh heh, well sending back the severed hands of an envoy representing a man who has three large fire breathing pets would fall under the description of jackassery.

[Curled Finger]

38 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

I believe there's meant to be around 200 swords in Westeros. So there's probably a lot of swords we haven't been introduced to with minor houses. The Mormonts are poorer than other houses, but I don't think they'd consider themselves impoverished.

The other question is how much did Tywin offer for the swords? What is the real price on the swords? 

A few numbers for relevance. A gold dragon buys a set of armor in the Hedge Knight. I believe Selwyn of Tarth ransomed 300 dragons for Brienne from the Bloody Mummers. The prize for the Hand's Tournament was 40,000 dragons. Robert's debts to the Lannister were 3,000,000 dragons. Like where does it fit on that spectrum?

Sorry, I was so pleased with my little research project I neglected the rest of your post.   It's 227 VS items in Westeros.  There really are only 15 swords named and deemed precious.  3 have been destroyed (my opinion on the 2 outside of Ice), so there are 12 swords, 6 of which are still missing.   Of those 227 items there is an axe, a crown, a mask, a rod and at least 1 dagger.   I explained this upthread if you care to look back a page or 2.   You can take it or leave it because there really isn't enough information but I believe there really are only the 15 swords.   Don't get me wrong, there is information it's just spread out over all the books and TPATQ and a pain to nail down.   I keep a spreadsheet on the 15 swords to keep my facts straight.   There is no mention of any Valyrian Steel sword other than the 15 named swords in Westeros.  

[GallowsKnight]

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

  It's 227 VS items in Westeros.  There really are only 15 swords named and deemed precious.  3 have been destroyed (my opinion on the 2 outside of Ice), so there are 12 swords, 6 of which are still missing.   Of those 227 items there is an axe, a crown, a mask, a rod and at least 1 dagger.   I explained this upthread if you care to look back a page or 2.   You can take it or leave it because there really isn't enough information but I believe there really are only the 15 swords.   

 

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The Valyrian steel blades that remain in the world might number in the thousands, but in the Seven Kingdoms there are only 227 such weapons, according to Arch Maester Thurgood's inventories  - WOIAF

227 weapons, not paperweights or nicknacks. Weapons. Sure a bunch will be axes or daggers. Possibly even spear heads or what not. But I don't buy that there is only 15 (now 12swords). I'm sure there's got to be dozens of unnamed VS swords with a variety of minor and major houses.

[Jaak]

10 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

by the time they became powerful there was a shortage of Valyrian steel in the world. We know Aegon loved Orys as his only friend and brother, but as a whole the Targaryens are a very proud family who see themselves above everyone else, they inbreed for crying out loud. They certainly wouldn't give up any of their swords, and to take the swords of their vassals would only alienate them.

Yes, but taking the swords of their defeated foes was an option at Conquest.

[theblackdragonI]

17 hours ago, Jaak said:

Yes, but taking the swords of their defeated foes was an option at Conquest.

Which would only serve to turn possible friends into the worst of foes? Aegon and his siblings were by all accounts fair and just rulers, not the type to steal family heirlooms. All the swords in the Iron Throne were from slain enemies on the battlefield. 

[GallowsKnight]

1 hour ago, theblackdragonI said:

Which would only serve to turn possible friends into the worst of foes? Aegon and his siblings were by all accounts fair and just rulers, not the type to steal family heirlooms. All the swords in the Iron Throne were from slain enemies on the battlefield. 

And really who needs Valyrian steel swords when you have Dragons?

[BlueNightzx]

its more like they lost it, like the lannisters, and just didn't bother to get another.

[Jaak]

6 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Which would only serve to turn possible friends into the worst of foes? Aegon and his siblings were by all accounts fair and just rulers, not the type to steal family heirlooms. All the swords in the Iron Throne were from slain enemies on the battlefield. 

And? They were family heirlooms, too.

What did Aegon do to the swords of enemies who were slain in battlefields but who (unlike Gardeners or Hoares) did have surviving heirs who bent their knee? Like Argilac?

And when Aegon chose not to return the sword of a killed enemy, melting the sword into Iron Throne does not earn anyone's gratitude. Giving the sword to ally or vassal might.

[theblackdragonI]

On 30/08/2016 at 7:49 AM, Jaak said:

And? They were family heirlooms, too.

What did Aegon do to the swords of enemies who were slain in battlefields but who (unlike Gardeners or Hoares) did have surviving heirs who bent their knee? Like Argilac?

And when Aegon chose not to return the sword of a killed enemy, melting the sword into Iron Throne does not earn anyone's gratitude. Giving the sword to ally or vassal might.

Replaceable swords of iron and steel, not valyrian steel, Aegon was no fool. No proper house would resent their conqueror more so for melting down their blade as it was done with hundreds of them. It would be different if Aegon took blades only from defeated houses, but the majority were from common soldiers. 

Melting the blades wasn't meant to earn gratitude but to send a message; you rebel, you burn. Every time a Westerosi lord comes to King's Landing they are reminded of the power of Aegon and his dragons, and the futility in opposing them. 

Taking treasured blades from one house to give to another would lead to ever lasting feuds and strife, which isn't beneficial to anyone. Besides, many houses might refuse to take the blade of another house out of pride. The Baratheons are notoriously proud and might take offence at being offered another house's sword?

 

[thi4f]

Not much to add, but bear in mind: House Baratheon's history is filled with wars and premature deaths (recent examples: Renly, Robert, Steffon, Ormund). It's possible they had VS at some point but lost it in turmoil.