The Realm of the Elderlings by Robin Hobb

[SeanF]

Liveships is my favourite Robin Hobb trilogy so far (although the latest trilogy may turn out to be even better).

There is a considerable amount of rape in the series, but handled very well, focusing on the impact on the victims (Kennit, Althea, Serilla) very believably, rather than on the act itself.

[Corvinus85]

On 1/9/2017 at 9:57 AM, SeanF said:

Liveships is my favourite Robin Hobb trilogy so far (although the latest trilogy may turn out to be even better).

There is a considerable amount of rape in the series, but handled very well, focusing on the impact on the victims (Kennit, Althea, Serilla) very believably, rather than on the act itself.

I started it recently, and I've find it very slow to get into. But then again, I found Farseer slow at first, too, but that one had a more interesting setting than this one. But I have this will get better. And holy shit, based on your comment, I should expect it to get as dark as Farseer, right?

[Darth Richard II]

Compared to a lot of the more popular stuff these days I would in no way say it has a "considerable" amount of rape.

[HexMachina]

18 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I started it recently, and I've find it very slow to get into. But then again, I found Farseer slow at first, too, but that one had a more interesting setting than this one. But I have this will get better. And holy shit, based on your comment, I should expect it to get as dark as Farseer, right?

At times it's pretty dark yes. Bear in mind that this is a novel dealing with piracy, slavery, and various other bits I won't talk about to avoid spoiling you, so at times things get really dark and disturbing. 

I actually like the setting of Liveships (Bingtown, Jamailia, the Pirate Isles, the Rain Wilds) more than I like the Six Duchies. It felt different from what you normally see in fantasy. But I also really liked the tension running hroughout between the Traders and various "Outsiders" and the changes that occur throughout (changes in society are also noticeable in the Six duchies, they are just spread out over 9 novels)

[red snow]

HelenaExmachina mentioned that I'd probably want to look back on my opening comment on the start of the Liveship books so I figured it'd be easier to find here than in the "feb2017 reads" section.

I've just started Robin Hobb's Liveship series - whichever the first one is. Interesting to get different POVs from that of Fitz. I also like how a similar concept to that of the dragons has been used for the liveships and wizardwood - i actually think it's better and a little less wacky here. Currently struck at how 3 dimensional the characters are. All of them are capable of flaws, mood swings and different behaviours depending on the context. Kennet is a great example of this but so was the chapter with Ronica and the trader who lost his wife several years ago. The scene starts with us thinking the trader is out to make money out of Ronica's plight and leaves the scene as someone you feel sorry for. The same with the family politics of who the captain should be - all the arguments seem reasonable when presented by the POVs championing said view. Although

Kyle already seems to have "regal syndrome" in the sense that everyone should realise he's a bit of a dick (look at how he treats Wintro) and the only reason he gets where he is is because everyone else lets him. That said, his reasoning to his wife about Althea appears reasonable.

[HexMachina]

I think in a lot of the RotE books there is a Regal type figure. You have Regal in Farseer, Kyle in Liveships, Hest in Rain Wilds (oh my  too funny). Can't think of any in Tawny Man and Fitz and the Fool of the top of my head. But I suppose they work when viewed strictly as a plot driving device. 

I think Kyle gets a bit more fleshed out by the end of book one though. 

Having just finished my Liveships re-read, I have to say the character development is absolutely brilliant and so natural. I have one or two criticisms though:

I feel like the Jamailian nobles plotting against the Satrap, and probably the New Traders, needed further development. Obviously it's a pretty huge series already, but a bit of reworking could probably have given them the time they needed. As it was, the plot against the Satrap, while well thought out, fell a bit flat because the other side were so underdeveloped. 

I go back and forth with the ending, and Althea passing on the pain to Paragon. I know she still has the memory and that in itself is traumatic, but I can't decide if it's a quick get out to have her pass on the pain. I do think up to that point Hobb handles the aftermath very well, with the shame, guilt, anger, and fear that torments Althea. 

I also wish Keffria and Malta and Wintrow could have seen Kyle again. A confrontation with him would have brought their stories full circle. 

But overall I was very satisfied with how Liveships ended.

Straight into Tawny Man now. Tissues at the ready  

[red snow]

I also can't remove the image of Aang the last airbender whenever Wintrow is on page.

[First of My Name]

On ‎13‎-‎2‎-‎2017 at 6:12 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

I think in a lot of the RotE books there is a Regal type figure. You have Regal in Farseer, Kyle in Liveships, Hest in Rain Wilds (oh my  too funny). Can't think of any in Tawny Man and Fitz and the Fool of the top of my head. But I suppose they work when viewed strictly as a plot driving device. 

I think Kyle gets a bit more fleshed out by the end of book one though. 

Having just finished my Liveships re-read, I have to say the character development is absolutely brilliant and so natural. I have one or two criticisms though:

 

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I feel like the Jamailian nobles plotting against the Satrap, and probably the New Traders, needed further development. Obviously it's a pretty huge series already, but a bit of reworking could probably have given them the time they needed. As it was, the plot against the Satrap, while well thought out, fell a bit flat because the other side were so underdeveloped. 

I go back and forth with the ending, and Althea passing on the pain to Paragon. I know she still has the memory and that in itself is traumatic, but I can't decide if it's a quick get out to have her pass on the pain. I do think up to that point Hobb handles the aftermath very well, with the shame, guilt, anger, and fear that torments Althea. 

I also wish Keffria and Malta and Wintrow could have seen Kyle again. A confrontation with him would have brought their stories full circle. 

But overall I was very satisfied with how Liveships ended.

Straight into Tawny Man now. Tissues at the ready  

 

I had the exact same problems.

Spoiler

I especially thought it was a shame that Malta and Kyle didn't see each other again, because they were in the same bloody place at the end, just before Kyle dies. I love Liveships, but I have no idea why Hobb handled this the way she did, it's a missed opportunity. She wouldn't even need to have changed anything up to that.

 

[red snow]

At the moment Kyle has me at "dropping the book" annoyed.

it's not so much Kyle but the fact he exists means that the mum, his wife and the dad who just died are incredibly pathetic/bad judges of character. For Kyle to be such a dick he would have shown signs earlier and as such the other characters have to be weak and stupid or we have to accept that he just suddenly became like this as the reader joined their lives. At the current rate I can only imagine that Hobb wants us to desperately hope that Kennet kills Kyle and his slaver crew. I wasn't a fan of it with Regal but this seems even more ridiculous as there isn't all the silly prestige and power that comes with royalty. It's a family run business and it seems ridiculous that they'd sign everything over to kyle other than for the sake of plot. Maybe it will turn out that all the parents are idiots in which case it may justify Kyle's "someone has to sort this shit out" stance. It's a shame because the characterisation is really strong but seems to be bottled within the pages and seems to ignore the same level of characterisation into the past.

end rant.

[HexMachina]

44 minutes ago, red snow said:

At the moment Kyle has me at "dropping the book" annoyed.

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it's not so much Kyle but the fact he exists means that the mum, his wife and the dad who just died are incredibly pathetic/bad judges of character. For Kyle to be such a dick he would have shown signs earlier and as such the other characters have to be weak and stupid or we have to accept that he just suddenly became like this as the reader joined their lives. At the current rate I can only imagine that Hobb wants us to desperately hope that Kennet kills Kyle and his slaver crew. I wasn't a fan of it with Regal but this seems even more ridiculous as there isn't all the silly prestige and power that comes with royalty. It's a family run business and it seems ridiculous that they'd sign everything over to kyle other than for the sake of plot. Maybe it will turn out that all the parents are idiots in which case it may justify Kyle's "someone has to sort this shit out" stance. It's a shame because the characterisation is really strong but seems to be bottled within the pages and seems to ignore the same level of characterisation into the past.

 

end rant.

Have you read the scene in the home with Keffria, Ronica and Kyle yet? That laid things out fairly convincingly for me

I won't go into spoiler territory, but a few things you should keep in mind (they are all referred to in some way or another in the first book); 

1) Kyle only just took over as captain of the Vivacia. None of the family in Bingtown had much of an opportunity to evaluate how he acted with that power.

2) Kyle is actually very domineering and, well, Chalcedean. When you read Keffria's POVs it is easier to see how she was able to overlook/be blind to his flaws, but that doesn't take away the fact that Kyle adheres to very strict notions of male/female gender roles, and tries to push those on the Vestrit family. 

3) It's actually Keffria who owns Vivacia. That obviously gives the captaincy to Kyle, but the reason is quite practical - the income from the Vivacia is needed to shore up their land holdings, so it makes sense not to spread ownership out. Especially when, to Ronica and Keffria at least, Althea is wilful and reckless and can't really be relied upon. 

4) Ephron was sick and dying when he was convinced to hand over the Vivacia to Keffria, and by extension to Kyle. Its quite telling that he didn't do this when he was healthy, but when he was weakened and probably somewhat unfocused. He didn't have great fondness for Kyle, and I think in any other circumstances he would have turned the ship over to Althea. 

5) The family are in very dire financial straits because of the changes in Bingtown (notably the New Traders using slave labour and being able to undercut the Old Traders prices for crops). They really need to be united and co-operate to stay afloat.

 

In a way it's true that Kyle only really becomes this way when the reader joins the Vestrit family. But that's because of the specific circumstances - Kyle has just become "man of the house" with Ephron's death and is able to throw is weight around. He has a economic noose around Ronica and Althea's necks because Keffria (which is essentially him) holds the family finances. He has broken down Keffria over years of marriage to be his meek and obedient wife, and so she doesn't stand in his way or oppose him.

I'm doing a poor job explaining this, but I did feel that by the end of the first book I was satisfied as to how and why Kyle acted as he did and was able to do so. 

[red snow]

10 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Have you read the scene in the home with Keffria, Ronica and Kyle yet? That laid things out fairly convincingly for me

I won't go into spoiler territory, but a few things you should keep in mind (they are all referred to in some way or another in the first book); 

1) Kyle only just took over as captain of the Vivacia. None of the family in Bingtown had much of an opportunity to evaluate how he acted with that power.

2) Kyle is actually very domineering and, well, Chalcedean. When you read Keffria's POVs it is easier to see how she was able to overlook/be blind to his flaws, but that doesn't take away the fact that Kyle adheres to very strict notions of male/female gender roles, and tries to push those on the Vestrit family. 

3) It's actually Keffria who owns Vivacia. That obviously gives the captaincy to Kyle, but the reason is quite practical - the income from the Vivacia is needed to shore up their land holdings, so it makes sense not to spread ownership out. Especially when, to Ronica and Keffria at least, Althea is wilful and reckless and can't really be relied upon. 

4) Ephron was sick and dying when he was convinced to hand over the Vivacia to Keffria, and by extension to Kyle. Its quite telling that he didn't do this when he was healthy, but when he was weakened and probably somewhat unfocused. He didn't have great fondness for Kyle, and I think in any other circumstances he would have turned the ship over to Althea. 

5) The family are in very dire financial straits because of the changes in Bingtown (notably the New Traders using slave labour and being able to undercut the Old Traders prices for crops). They really need to be united and co-operate to stay afloat.

 

In a way it's true that Kyle only really becomes this way when the reader joins the Vestrit family. But that's because of the specific circumstances - Kyle has just become "man of the house" with Ephron's death and is able to throw is weight around. He has a economic noose around Ronica and Althea's necks because Keffria (which is essentially him) holds the family finances. He has broken down Keffria over years of marriage to be his meek and obedient wife, and so she doesn't stand in his way or oppose him.

I'm doing a poor job explaining this, but I did feel that by the end of the first book I was satisfied as to how and why Kyle acted as he did and was able to do so. 

Yes, I've just finished the chat in the house the morning after the awakening. It's actually the infuriating scene. I agree that Kyle's actions are understandable from his POV but the utter lack of insight into his character from Ronica and Ephron (although maybe Ephron gets an out for being ill) is shocking. There was a moment where Ronica suddenly thinks "come to think of it Keffria didn't really run things at all while Kyle was away" - why wasn't she thinking of this before handing everything effectively over to him? I also think a man who would punch his own son, knocking him out would have shown signs of this at an earlier stage.

But much like Regal, I don't blame the character for behaving the way they do - it's almost to be expected when everyone around them seems to faciliatate it.

It probably resonates more having witnessed the referendum and US election

 

I should also add that I think Althea would have been a terrible captain, as she is, and can understand why the rest of the family had their doubts. A shame Ephron didn't insist she'd always be a part of the crew - although I can also see how this would never work with Kyle in charge.

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, red snow said:

Yes, I've just finished the chat in the house the morning after the awakening. It's actually the infuriating scene. I agree that Kyle's actions are understandable from his POV but the utter lack of insight into his character from Ronica and Ephron (although maybe Ephron gets an out for being ill) is shocking. There was a moment where Ronica suddenly thinks "come to think of it Keffria didn't really run things at all while Kyle was away" - why wasn't she thinking of this before handing everything effectively over to him? I also think a man who would punch his own son, knocking him out would have shown signs of this at an earlier stage.

But much like Regal, I don't blame the character for behaving the way they do - it's almost to be expected when everyone around them seems to faciliatate it.

It probably resonates more having witnessed the referendum and US election

 

I should also add that I think Althea would have been a terrible captain, as she is, and can understand why the rest of the family had their doubts. A shame Ephron didn't insist she'd always be a part of the crew - although I can also see how this would never work with Kyle in charge.

Fitz could have saved everyone a lot of trouble if he'd slipped something into Regal's drink.

[HexMachina]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Fitz could have saved everyone a lot of trouble if he'd slipped something into Regal's drink.

But then he wouldn't be Fitz  

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, First of My Name said:

I had the exact same problems.

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I especially thought it was a shame that Malta and Kyle didn't see each other again, because they were in the same bloody place at the end, just before Kyle dies. I love Liveships, but I have no idea why Hobb handled this the way she did, it's a missed opportunity. She wouldn't even need to have changed anything up to that.

 

everyone viewed Kyle's death as a happy ending.  He came to a truly sticky end. 

[red snow]

3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

But then he wouldn't be Fitz  

Often it was others who talked him out of it too.

Having made my way through the "breakfast with the vestrids" shitstorm I'm the story can get underway now we know everyone's life sucks and is unfair.

I'm struck by how this series already feels really suitable for TV much moreso than the farseer trilogy. Although that might just be because I'm enjoying Black Sails and do like shows with a trade angle eg Deadwood and season 2 of the wire. Although it maybe gets outside of TV territory as the series progresses

 

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, red snow said:

Often it was others who talked him out of it too.

Having made my way through the "breakfast with the vestrids" shitstorm I'm the story can get underway now we know everyone's life sucks and is unfair.

I'm struck by how this series already feels really suitable for TV much moreso than the farseer trilogy. Although that might just be because I'm enjoying Black Sails and do like shows with a trade angle eg Deadwood and season 2 of the wire. Although it maybe gets outside of TV territory as the series progresses

 

I think it would adapt well for TV.  Has anything by Robin Hobb been made into a series, or film?

[red snow]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I think it would adapt well for TV.  Has anything by Robin Hobb been made into a series, or film?

I don't think so but in the current climate of networks trying to have their own GOT you'd think people would have been sniffing around. Liveships feels like something that could follow the story while expanding elements. Also the cast doesn't have to be as young as Fitz or rely on a young actor as the lead. Althea is a young adult from what I can gather and even Wintro doesn't need to be too young.

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, red snow said:

Often it was others who talked him out of it too.

Having made my way through the "breakfast with the vestrids" shitstorm I'm the story can get underway now we know everyone's life sucks and is unfair.

I'm struck by how this series already feels really suitable for TV much moreso than the farseer trilogy. Although that might just be because I'm enjoying Black Sails and do like shows with a trade angle eg Deadwood and season 2 of the wire. Although it maybe gets outside of TV territory as the series progresses

 

On my Re-read I thought it was well suited for a TV adaptation too. There are some scenes in particular where, whether because of the scenes themselves or the skill with which Hobb wrote them, I feel I can visualise exactly how it would play out on screen. 

I wouldn't say it really goes outside of TV territory, certainly not in the present day - when you look at how impressive CGI and stuff can be these days. Probably be quite costly to make though, especially some of the later stuff.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think it would adapt well for TV.  Has anything by Robin Hobb been made into a series, or film?

No, none of Hobb's work has been adapted for film or TV. From memory, a long time ago she said she wasn't keen on the idea because she had such a fixed idea of what her characters look like and how the story should be that she would be reluctant to see the changes that are necessary for an adaptation. (Unlike GRRM she has no background of writing for TV). See this 2014 interview for example:

Quote

"I know some people see it as this success when the book is finally made into a movie - that marks its success, I don’t see it that way. In fact, sometimes I regret that the wonderful children’s stories that have been made into movies were – people no longer read The Wizard of Oz, they think they know the story, they don’t know anything about all the bits and pieces they had to leave out."

But Hobb is not averse to having her work translated to the silver screen, if she had to pick one it would be the Megan Lindholm short story Old Paint.

And also This interview a little later in 2014

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WONDERLANCER: Robin, which of your trilogies would you like to see, at some point, adapted to the screen, if any? And would you prefer it to be adapted to the silver screen as a film production of the likes of Lord of The Rings, or as a high quality major TV show such as George’s Game of Thrones?

ROBIN HOBB: Strange to say, perhaps, but I don’t give this a lot of thought. I don’t rate it high on the scale of ‘likely to happen’. Adapting books to film/screen is a tricky thing. It is, without a doubt, always an adaptation, and no matter the film maker, the story cannot be told the same way it is in the books. I’ve seen some wonderful adaptations. The Lord of the Rings and the Narnia movies immediately come to mind. But the movies and my reading of the books do not intersect in my mind.  

Uh, what was the question again?  Oh, yes. I don’t have any particular books/stories that I long to see adapted as movies or films. It could be fun, but it is way outside my field of expertise.

I seem to recollect that more recently (maybe in a Reddit AMA) she simply said there was nothing optioned and that sort of stuff is discussed primarily with her someone else but I'm not sure.

[First of My Name]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

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everyone viewed Kyle's death as a happy ending.  He came to a truly sticky end. 

 

Spoiler

And you'll never hear me say I wasn't glad to see him go. But it would've been so easy to tie up the relationship between him and Malta, and particularly the way Malta worshipped him, and we never got that before Kyle went and got a piercing.

 

[HexMachina]

19 minutes ago, First of My Name said:

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And you'll never hear me say I wasn't glad to see him go. But it would've been so easy to tie up the relationship between him and Malta, and particularly the way Malta worshipped him, and we never got that before Kyle went and got a piercing.

 

While I agree (obviously, since I said it first ) that it's frustrating

It's not something that can easily be resolved. The reunion of Kyle and Malta, bearing in mind the vastly different people each of them are by the end of the novel (Kyle and quivering, slightly mad wreck of a man because of his captivity, Malta a strong, thoughtful and intelligent young Trader) would likely take considerable time to satisfactorily resolve. And the books are already very long. Also, I happen to think a reunion of Malta and Kyle is the least important of the missed reunions - we've already seen Malta realise her faults in idolising and relying on seemingly strong male figures in her life. In that sense the lack of reunion is somewhat tragic really - a lot of Malta's motivation is in rescuing her father, and this is snatched away at the very last moment. There is a certain irony in that.

I would rather have seen him confront Keffria and Wintrow. But again, length. It's not a particularly good reason for the omission of course, but I suspect that is why he was so quickly killed off.