Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Grey King and the Sea Dragon

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I really enjoyed listening to this @LmL. I'm giving it a read too as my brain has a tendency to wander and miss important information!

I've always found the Iron Islands / Ironborn a bit, well, less exciting than the rest (sorry Ironborn fans!).  On the surface they seem to lack the same degree of magic, great history, mystery and colour as other houses. They're so grey.  On the surface. (I don't include Euron in that as he is totally fascinating).

Now, with your pointers, I'm considering their mythology as a tie in with the wider Planetos mythology, which adds a lot more interest for me. Your comparison of The Grey King with Bloodraven was a real lightbulb moment! We assume stories of people living for centuries as exaggeration but we know in Bloodraven's case it's true, so why not the Grey King too if he had access to a living weirwood throne.  Why not others from that era too? I like the notion of several long-living greenseer 'Kings' in different kingdoms around Westeros & islands (gives new meaning to "long live the King"!).  It would make sense that Bran the Builder was able to achieve all he did due to an unnaturally long lifespan.

I found that while listening I was making comparisons between the Iron Islands and Dragonstone.  The bleak hardness, the dragons (Dragonstone has Sea Dragon Tower), the separation from mainland but reliance on it for trade/sustenance. When analysing the story of the GK using Nagga's living fire to heat his halls, I thought of the volcanic warmth of the lower chambers of Dragonstone from the active volcano the castle is built against, in the same way that the Starks built Winterfell over hot springs to harness the heat. Such technology would be very handy to anyone who wanted to survive unnaturally long winters or the Long Night! I got to wondering if Nagga's living flame was actually volcanic in nature and part of the island, and then later it become dormant/extinct (put out by the storm God).  Like @Maester of Valyria above, I wondered if the Iron Islands were volcanic - they certainly resemble a volcanic Archipelgo reaching out as far as The Lonely Light.  Great Wyk and Old Wyk are certainly very volcanic in shape.  That's not to say I disagree with the Sea Dragon = Moon Meteor theory... I think both can be true at the same time and there are far too many other symbolism nods here with the overall breaking of the moon legend for it not to be the main origin of the Iron legends.  It's possible the moon meteor impact in the sea even set off a volcanic chain of events in the sea, seen as the sea dragon's wrath, which the GK could claim that he put an end to by killing Nagga.   

This whole thread has been great reading too with the insights on other historical figures and the multitude of hollow hills and caves.  I'm sure there's a connection with harnessing magic of the CoTF as well as surviving through the long night - they must surely have gone underground to survive!

I'll read again and probably come back for more discussion! Thanks for all the work you put into these!

Edit: I see you already responded to the volcanic suggestion while I was writing this  

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I really enjoyed listening to this @LmL. I'm giving it a read too as my brain has a tendency to wander and miss important information!

Great to see you @Lady Fishbiscuit! This was a pretty dense episode, I do recommend relistening or rereading. I have to go over the material many times to get a good enough grasp on the material to make a good episode - this in particulr had several waves of revision, and this was already a revised version of an older essay. But at the end of it all, I think I have presented a unified theory to explain all Ironborn mythology - or at least, the Grey King myths. There is also the Deep Ones side of things and their ties to a legacy of aquatic religion, which will be discussed in the future. It's come up before, but essentially there are traces of an old religion in Dawn Age Westeros that worships the a sea and wind god or goddess pair.  Setting that aside, I find the Ironborn mythology to be a very excellent and thoroughly fleshed-out  version of my general moon disaster theory.  

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I've always found the Iron Islands / Ironborn a bit, well, less exciting than the rest (sorry Ironborn fans!).  On the surface they seem to lack the same degree of magic, great history, mystery and colour as other houses. They're so grey.  On the surface. (I don't include Euron in that as he is totally fascinating).

Now, with your pointers, I'm considering their mythology as a tie in with the wider Planetos mythology, which adds a lot more interest for me.

Awesome! That's like music to my ears

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Your comparison of The Grey King with Bloodraven was a real lightbulb moment! We assume stories of people living for centuries as exaggeration but we know in Bloodraven's case it's true, so why not the Grey King too if he had access to a living weirwood throne.  Why not others from that era too? I like the notion of several long-living greenseer 'Kings' in different kingdoms around Westeros & islands (gives new meaning to "long live the King"!).  It would make sense that Bran the Builder was able to achieve all he did due to an unnaturally long lifespan.

I cannot stress how important it was that we saw Bran access the weirwoodnet in his sleeping chambers when he was not sitting in the weirwood throne. This tells us that greenseers don't have to be stuck to the tree throne to use the weirwoodnet... and that tells all we need to know to assume greenseer kings existed. Mankind is utterly predictable, and will always do the same sorts of things with power. That's one of the themes of the books... so if mankind had access to the greenseer ability, and without the trade off of having to live in a cave woven into a tree... we can assume sooner or later one of these greenseers would have become a terrifying sort of tyrant. Think about Varymyr, using his shadowcat to cow an entire village and to take any woman he desired. It's just logical deduction. 

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I found that while listening I was making comparisons between the Iron Islands and Dragonstone.  The bleak hardness, the dragons (Dragonstone has Sea Dragon Tower),

Oh nice catch I had forgotten about that! 

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the separation from mainland but reliance on it for trade/sustenance. When analysing the story of the GK using Nagga's living fire to heat his halls, I thought of the volcanic warmth of the lower chambers of Dragonstone from the active volcano the castle is built against, in the same way that the Starks built Winterfell over hot springs to harness the heat. Such technology would be very handy to anyone who wanted to survive unnaturally long winters or the Long Night! I got to wondering if Nagga's living flame was actually volcanic in nature and part of the island, and then later it become dormant/extinct (put out by the storm God).  Like @Maester of Valyria above, I wondered if the Iron Islands were volcanic - they certainly resemble a volcanic Archipelgo reaching out as far as The Lonely Light.  Great Wyk and Old Wyk are certainly very volcanic in shape.  That's not to say I disagree with the Sea Dragon = Moon Meteor theory... I think both can be true at the same time and there are far too many other symbolism nods here with the overall breaking of the moon legend for it not to be the main origin of the Iron legends.  It's possible the moon meteor impact in the sea even set off a volcanic chain of events in the sea, seen as the sea dragon's wrath, which the GK could claim that he put an end to by killing Nagga.   

Yes, I'd say all of these ideas are in play. Nagga rising from the sea could sound like a sea volcano eruption, and meteor impacts can trigger earthquakes (and therefore volcanoes). 

Interesting comparison to geothermal activity at WF and Dragonstone. I have a lot to say about Dragonstone but I don't want to get into that at the moment

As for volcanoes at the Iron Islands, the problem is this: there can't have been any volcanic eruption since the weirwood boat was set in place atop Nagga's Hill. Or else it wouldn't be there, you know? So this is an 8,000 years dormant volcano, if that's what it is. The shape is the biggest clue that it's volcanically formed, but again it can't have erupted in eons. 

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This whole thread has been great reading too with the insights on other historical figures and the multitude of hollow hills and caves.  I'm sure there's a connection with harnessing magic of the CoTF as well as surviving through the long night - they must surely have gone underground to survive!

I'll read again and probably come back for more discussion! Thanks for all the work you put into these!

Edit: I see you already responded to the volcanic suggestion while I was writing this  

Right on, the hollow hill idea is really cool. Martin has seemingly gone out of his way to mention caverns under A LOT of the old sacred places. And to that list we can add the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle, which also has twisting subterranean passages. 

BTW, I connect underground passages to the Old Ones and the Isle of Leng, because I think those Old Ones are horned lords. That's also what I think that scene from the new Arianne TWOW chapter

where they saw stone faces carved into the pillars and walls of the underground cave in the Rainwood is talking about the Old Ones.

[Maester of Valyria]

23 hours ago, LmL said:

Right on man, I think it's healthy and wonderful to analyze ASOIAF from different approaches, because they turn up different connections and ideas. The symbolism wouldn't be worth writing about if the conclusions it led to didn't make any rational sense, so I value the act of cross referencing one to the other  

I'm glad you agree: I've spent a lot of time looking at the physical and geological evidence (as well as a fair amount of textual) and come to many of the same conclusions as you without examining the symbolism.

23 hours ago, LmL said:

Word! I definitely do agree there  In general I think Martin is borrowing from the real world timeline  The Long Night event was about 10,000 years ago, correlating to the myth of Atlantis's destruction and the dramatic sea level rise of 12,000 BC - 7,000 BC as the last ice age began to come to a violent end in fits of glacial meltwater flooding and ice sheet collapse  We've been basically warming ever since, and it looks more or less the same in ASOIAF. In the Thousand Islands (was George hungry when he wrote that?) there are carved stone images below the waterline only visible at low tide, which most likely used to be above the waterline. And I would guess that although the Hammer of the Waters impact would have done a lot of damage, a lot more of the arm has surely been submerged over time by natural processes too. The Hammer event recalls a disastrous impact on the Arm, but that doesn't mean it's entirely responsible for the state it's in now. If sea levels are rising, then by necessity much of it has been covered for that reason. 

I take the view that the Thousand Isles (probably starving!) were once a single, large, low-lying region, that was cut off from the mainland and nearly completely inundated by huge amounts of polar and glacial meltwater. Although I confess I'm at a loss to explain the inhabitants' peculiar physical characteristics.

As for the Arm, I completely concur in that natural processes are likely to have done removed large amounts of the remaining land even after the initial deluge (whatever its cause).

23 hours ago, LmL said:

What about Old Wyk? Honestly, Great Wyk and Old Wyk look like a caldera island setup, with Great Wyk being the crescent shaped remnant of the last caldera and Old Wyk the new volcano rising again. That doesn't make rational sense though - Nagga's bones have been on Old Wyk for thousands of years and have clearly not seen a volcanic eruption. So I've never done anything with that idea. But sure - a fire rising from the sea could be a volcano, certainly, at least in theory. The closest thing I coul find to this idea in terms of symbolism is the Fist of the First Men motif - a fist rising to the sky from the earth. Storm's End is also described as a fist rising from the earth. I have primarily linked this idea to the plumes of smoke which rose from the impact sites to kill the sun. That's like when fallen Gregor reaches up with his smoking fist to kill Oberyn and pull him down. I haven't found a lot of volcano symbolism, and so haven't gone in that direction, but maybe I just haven't found it yet  I'm keeping the idea in the back of my mind. 

I'm split over the Iron Islands (excluding the Lonely Light and its cluster - those are obviously volcanic). On the one hand they could be a volcanic formation, not dormant or extinct (volcanoes can go for thousands of years without erupting; an explosion devastating the Iron Islands could be an interesting plot point in the later books), for the reasons you lay out here. However I think there's a fair amount of evidence that suggests they were once all connected and became cut off from the mainland and each other by rising sea levels. I go back and forth between the two explanations depending on my mood and whether there's an R in the month.

As for the Fist, it's possible that it could be a volcanic formation itself: certainly the North is highly geologically active.

If you want to run ideas about volcanoes etc by me, I'd be more than happy. I've studied them in some detail, both in formal education and independently.

23 hours ago, LmL said:

Iron Islands and Hammer of be Waters in Westeros, and the other impact site would probably be in the Shadowlands. Remember that the Bloodstone Emperor worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky at the time of the Long Night... that indicates one of them fell out east. Plus, Asshai is made of oily black stone. I don't think that's all meteorite stone, but  rather stone that was burnt and corrupted by the moon meteor impact on the area, something like that. Maybe the impact upriver from Asshai just poisons all the land on the peninsula and turns it all oily and black over time.

That Black Stone has always interested me, and I love your burnt corrupted stone idea! Have you considered that the waters of the Ash might be slightly radioactive? I haven't found a huge amount of evidence beyond the glimmering water (microscopic particles in the water?), deformed fish and apparent sterility of the Asshai'i. Just one of those things which would probably have zero impact on the overall story, but is fun to think about.

23 hours ago, LmL said:

Right on Maester, your scholarly wisdom is welcome and appreciated. I also appreciate that you are coming from a different approach and that you can still enjoy what I am doing. Cheers! 

Many thanks! I always enjoy reading your work; it is invariably well-written and of high quality.

 

18 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I got to wondering if Nagga's living flame was actually volcanic in nature and part of the island, and then later it become dormant/extinct (put out by the storm God).

I was wondering that too: it's possible that when the volcano became extinct that would have been the event that led to the tale of Nagga's flame dying.

15 hours ago, LmL said:

Right on, the hollow hill idea is really cool. Martin has seemingly gone out of his way to mention caverns under A LOT of the old sacred places. And to that list we can add the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle, which also has twisting subterranean passages. 

I've often thought that lots of magical events are tied in with geological ones. You have the Fourteen Flames and Valyria, the Shadowlands, beyond the Wall...and now we have lots of caverns popping up everywhere! Of course not all caverns are volcanic in origin, but many are (ie 'Primary caves', or lava tubes). In addition, one reason why they are considered sacred could be because they sheltered beings of all races during the Long Night?

[Sly Wren]

On August 29, 2016 at 10:00 AM, LmL said:

Ever wonder why there is so much weirwood in Ironborn mythology? Perhaps you haven't noticed - much of it is disguised and veiled.  But it is there in three separate Ironborn myths, and there's a very good reason.

Okay, @LmL--this is amazing! I'm still processing and will be back soon to play.

But: well done! 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hey @LmL.  Thanks for the suggestion I look up Hern the Horn, I've enjoyed the read this weekend.  Some fascinating stuff, and all of it happened a short distance from where I live!  Perhaps I'll visit Hern's tree sometime.  And thanks for the positive feedback on the hollow hills.

Talking of which, I searched the well known castles for hollow hills, but what of the ancient ruins scattered around Westeros?  They still held Kings in the Age of Heroes, who were also possible greenseers.  Nimble Dick tells us of the magical Ser Clarence Crabb from back in the day, what of his castle?      

THE WHISPERS

But the Cracklaws knew their bogs and forests as no outsider could, and if hard pressed would vanish into the caverns that honeycombed their hills.........

Fifty feet below, the waves were swirling in and over the remnants of a shattered tower.  Behind it, she glimpsed the mouth of a large cavern. ‘’That’s the old beacon tower,’’ said Nimble Dick as he came up behind her. ‘’It fell when I was half as old as Pods here.  Used to be steps down to the cove, but when the cliff collapsed they went too.  The smugglers stopped landing there after that.  Time, was, they could row their boats into the cave, but no more.  See?’’

So we have the caverns deep in the hills, and then the mouth underneath the castle leading to another cave.  We also see this at Casterly Rock and Storm's End.  I think The Whispers is another castle strategically placed atop a hollow hill.  We also have the weirwood sapling growing in the area which again may support a weirwood root network underground.  These saplings are suddenly popping up everywhere, places I have potentially sited as hollow hills in fact, Nightfort, The Whispers and

 

the Arianne sample chapter on George's website.

 

SEA DRAGON POINT

Sea Dragon Point had not always been as thinly populated as it was now.  Old ruins could still be found amongst its hills and bogs, the remains of ancient strongholds of the First Men.  In the high places, there were weirwood circles left by the children of the forest.......

‘’What’s there?  I’ll tell you.  Two long coastlines, a hundred hidden coves, otters in the lakes, salmon in the rivers, clams along the shore, colonies of seals offshore, tall pines for building ships.’’

We don't get a story of old heroes at Sea Dragon Point, but all the hallmarks of previous Greenseer Kings are present.  Old ruins built by the First Men amongst the hills, and a hundred hidden coves.  Plus of course all those weirwood circles in the high places [hills] would allow for a multitude of roots to work their through into a cavern, a very good candidate for a weirwood throne I'd say. [Site won't change the font.  ]        

OLDSTONES

They reached Oldstones after eight more days of steady rain, and made their camp upon the hill overlooking the Blue Fork, within a ruined stronghold of the ancient river kings. 

‘’Here lies Tristifer, the Fourth of His Name, King of the Rivers and the Hills.’’  Her father had told her his story once. ‘’He ruled from the Trident to the Neck, thousands of years before Jenny and her Prince, in the days when the kingdoms of the First Men were falling one after the other before the onslaught of the Andals.  The Hammer of Justice, they called him.  He fought a hundred battles and won ninety-nine, or so the singers say, and when he raised this castle it was the strongest in Westeros.

We don't get a cavern or even a cave entrance, but we do get a First Man King who seems to live a very long life [fighting a hundred battles] living atop another hill.  I reckon there is a passage underground at Oldstones, but George hid any potential entrance under all that overgrowth that is growing wildly all over the hill.  Even if all the tunnels up and down Westeros don't link up, Oldstones is not far from High Heart.  So I think it likely that there are caverns under this hill that link through to the cavern at HH. 

It seems Tristifer Mudd's ninety-nine battles were before the Andals invasion. Fighting other Greenseer Kings probably, and the children of course.  That's a lot of battles.   

Hey @Maester of Valyria , I'm sure it's no surprise to you as you seem all over the volcanic stuff, but there are caverns deep under Dragonmont as well.  Perhaps not so descriptive, but even so.......

DRAGONSTONE

‘’Queer talking I have heard, of hungry fires within the moutain, and how Stannis and the red woman go down together to watch the flames.  There are shafts, they say, and secret stairs down into the mountain’s heart, into hot places where only she may walk unburned.

I shall have to read your essays, and find time to listen to LML's podcast again.  Some really cool chat up thread everyone.            

[LmL]

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay, @LmL--this is amazing! I'm still processing and will be back soon to play.

But: well done! 

Right on Sly and the Family Wren, I will definitely look forward to your reactions and ideas. I feel like I deserve a bit of credit for finally moving away from the same old topics that I always talk about, right? I mean, I'm weaning myself off the Lightbringer juice slowly, like some sort of addict.  Still talking Azor Ahai and meteors, but moving the focus to weirwoods and greenseers, and there's plenty to say about that. I've got some stuff written about the Others I put on hold, but I'll get there too eventually. In any case, I think I've thrown out some new ideas to 'play with,' as you say, and the topic of human greenseer kings in Dawn Age is a pretty fun one. As I said up thread, as soon as I thought about the fact that Bran only had to sit on the throne once and eat the paste once for him to be able to use weirwoodnet remotely (while in his sleeping quarters), I realized the mobile human greenseers would inevitably lead to greenseer kings, and terrifying ones at that. These would truly be gods-on-earth, you know? 

[Voice]

On 8/31/2016 at 0:12 AM, LmL said:

Yes, @Voice and I have have discussed this idea before, as well as a few Others. Pale stone, pale stone. Heart of a fallen star, fallen heart tree (of a Stark?). Dawn is milkglass, Others bones are milkglass, weirwood gate glows like milk and moonlight and weirwood is bone white. Others have heavy ties to weirwoods and others have mirror image symbolism to Dawn. Dawn might be the original Ice (a good name for a big white sword) and the ice magic could have come in from the same place / events that created Others from weirwoods. Basically, if Dawn is original Ice, and comes form the north, it makes sense as an icy weirwood tree-sword.  There are a ton of wooden sword and tree-sword ideas, almost all with Starks. There are swords that come from trees in Norse myth. The cotf were said to use weirwood as a weapon. Others are pale shadows and a weirwood armored in ice is a pale shadow and the Kingsguard are pale shadows and Arthur Dayne was a KG. The Others are milky white and sword slim, the KG are called "the white swords" and the SOTM is named for his milky white sword. The KG pale shadows live in the white sword tower with weirwood furniture, SOTM comes form Palestine sword tower art Starfall. It goes on and on - there's a ton of symbolism linking weirwoods, Others, and Dawn, with the KG serving as a symbolic proxy for the Others (pale shadow knights with snow white armor who look ghostly in the moonlight). 

 

Glad to see you are seeing the light ole chap.

 

Not to toot my own horn too much, but I'm pretty sure I'm the first person who proposed petrified weirwood as a sword substance. And I'm pretty sure I was the first to mention Dawn=Ice as well. But I am nonetheless happy to see you spreading the gospel.

[LmL]

32 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Glad to see you are seeing the light ole chap.

 

Not to toot my own horn too much, but I'm pretty sure I'm the first person who proposed petrified weirwood as a sword substance. And I'm pretty sure I was the first to mention Dawn=Ice as well. But I am nonetheless happy to see you spreading the gospel.

Toot away, you were indeed first. I always mention your name when I bring up those ideas and I usually drop links to your essays, so I'm rooting your horn as well. The Dawn = Ice idea I did actually come up with before meeting you, but you had already put that idea out in Hersey long before, that's my understanding. I believe you said that you mentions the weirwood pale stone to make a sword idea back on one of my first threads, correct? I don't recall exactly when and where that idea came up, but I do think it has a lot to speak in its favor. I'm not 100% sold by any means, but I think it's a good theory with a decent amount of supporting evidence. I am more sold on the idea of Dawn=original Ice, and always have been. My very first crazy, all over the place draft of my first essay that I wrote back in February of last year had that idea in it, as well as the idea of the ToJ fight being an echo of the KoW bringing a white sword south in the Dawn Age. 

[Voice]

Well thanks for letting me toot away, and for tooting my horn so vigorously! LOL

Are you ready for Dawn=O.G.Ice=Lightbringer yet?

[LmL]

27 minutes ago, Voice said:

Well thanks for letting me toot away, and for tooting my horn so vigorously! LOL

Are you ready for Dawn=O.G.Ice=Lightbringer yet?

Depends on how you mean "Lightbringer." If you mean the sword that helped to end the LN somehow, sure, I've always said that's quite possible. If you mean the sword of Azor Ahai, then no, I think he had a black sword which was a forerunner of Valyrian steel made from a black meteorite, as you know. 

Are youhoing to give this episode a listen? Got some new ideas about greenseers in this one you might find interesting. 

[Voice]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Depends on how you mean "Lightbringer." If you mean the sword that helped to end the LN somehow, sure, I've always said that's quite possible. If you mean the sword of Azor Ahai, then no, I think he had a black sword which was a forerunner of Valyrian steel made from a black meteorite, as you know. 

That's cool! I think we might now agree on this one completely then. I never meant Dawn=LB as being AA's LB. I only argue that Dawn=LB as in it is the sword in the darkness... the light that brings the dawn.

 

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Are youhoing to give this episode a listen? Got some new ideas about greenseers in this one you might find interesting. 

I'll add it to my playlist.

[Darkstream]

Hey @LmL

Again, you have blown me away with your uncanny ability to discern and interpret the brilliance that lays hidden in every word that the George puts forth. My blood is burning black waiting for the release of WOW, but one thing that is keeping my head in the heavens is having great essays such as yours to sate my burgeoning impatients to plummet into the surging flood of anguish numbing ecstasy, which is surely to be found within the forthcoming book. Of course now, I can't wait for your next one, so uh, quit wasting time reading posts by rambling fools such as I, and get the Seven Hells to it.   I kid of course, the amount of time and dedication that you invest in bringing your ideas to all of us is quite obvious, and greatly appreciated. So, having wasted enough of your time, and in dedication to GRRM's fondness of incorporating and inverting many of these classic myths and tales into his works, I thought it would be apt if I could leave you off with my own inversion of a more recent classic.

Mr. LML, what you have theorized is one of the most insanely brilliant things I have ever read. At no point in your concise, intelligible assertions were you even close to anything that could be considered an unremarkable thought. Everyone in this forum is now smarter for having read/listened to your essay/podcast.

Great work my man.  

[LmL]

43 minutes ago, Voice said:

That's cool! I think we might now agree on this one completely then. I never meant Dawn=LB as being AA's LB. I only argue that Dawn=LB as in it is the sword in the darkness... the light that brings the dawn.

Yes, this is what the symbolism suggests, no doubt. What I would like to know is what the white sword actually DID to stop the LN. Even if it the Others cannot stand against it, that doesn't end the Long Night in my book, and most would agree that making the solution simply a matter of an arms race doesn't quite seem right. 

I have wondered in the past if Dawn might be a dragon-slayer sword, not an Others-slaying sword. If black dragon steel kills Others, as I believe it probably does (show canon nonwithstanding), perhaps white icy swords kill black dragons. That might be just as necessary as killing Others.

 

43 minutes ago, Voice said:

I'll add it to my playlist.

Sweet. I'm pretty proud of this one, I put a lot of work into it and I think it came out well... people seem to be liking it so far.

[Voice]

2 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, this is what the symbolism suggests, no doubt. What I would like to know is what the white sword actually DID to stop the LN. Even if it the Others cannot stand against it, that doesn't end the Long Night in my book, and most would agree that making the solution simply a matter of an arms race doesn't quite seem right. 

I think I already have the answer to that particular question.

 

2 minutes ago, LmL said:

I have wondered in the past if Dawn might be a dragon-slayer sword, not an Others-slaying sword. If black dragon steel kills Others, as I believe it probably does (show canon nonwithstanding), perhaps white icy swords kill black dragons. That might be just as necessary as killing Others.

Dragons are indeed bad news for public health. Tis definitely a necessity that something kill them. But, I think it will be greyscale.

Dawn will melt when NK does.

[LmL]

39 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Hey @LmL

Again, you have blown me away with your uncanny ability to discern and interpret the brilliance that lays hidden in every word that the George puts forth. My blood is turning black waiting for the release of WOW, but one thing that is keeping my head in the heavens is having great essays such as yours to sate my burgeoning impatients to plummet into the surging flood of anguish numbing ecstasy, which is surely to be found within the forthcoming book. Of course now, I can't wait for your next one, so uh, quit wasting time reading posts by rambling fools such as I, and get the Seven Hells to it.   I kid of course, the amount of time and dedication that you invest in bringing your ideas to all of us is quite obvious, and greatly appreciated. So, having wasted enough of your time, and in dedication to GRRM's fondness of incorporating and inverting many of these classic myths and tales into his works, I thought it would be apt if I could leave you off with my own inversion of a more recent classic.

Mr. LML, what you have theorized is one of the most insanely brilliant things I have ever read. At no point in your concise, intelligible assertions were you even close to anything that could be considered an unremarkable thought. Everyone in this forum is now smarter for having read/listened to your essay/podcast.

Great work my man.  

Thanks so very much for saying so Darkstream, I appreciate it. My drive for this whole project is the enthusiasm I feel for the source material.  Martin's use of symbol and myth is absolutely a work of art, and I just have the overwhelming urge to try to get people looking at what he's done here. That's really what it's all about. It's tremendous for me every time I hear someone else get fired up about it too, so again thanks for leaving your kind note.

What I recommend to kill time until TWOW is this.  Try re-reading or re-listening to the chapters that I am quoting from heavily in my episodes and see if you can find more symbolism. I never have time to pull everything from a chapter, and quite frequently the symbolic motifs run-through the entire chapter. For example, I pulled a lot from Theon's first ACOK chapter and Aeron's AFFC chapters in this Grey King episode, so try going back over those chapters with the ideas form my essay in mind... I bet you will start finding things on your own, and it makes reading get ebooks an entirely new experience. Honestly, I could also recommend just starting at the beginning of the books and re-reading or listening, and think about symbolism and mythical astronomy instead of just the main plot (since you already have that down at this point). There is next level symbolism of one sort or another in basically every chapter, and of course not all of related to 'mythical astronomy' type ideas either. @sweetsunray has been killing it with her essays lately, and of course @Sly Wren has some nice ones too... not sure if you've read those or not, maybe you have. I also have links to several other really good blogs on my website, there's all the old History of Westeros episodes you can sort through... anyway, hang in there. TWOW isn't coming out next week I don't think. 

I will be ripping into this whole greenseer things pretty hard with this series, so keep an eye on it. Subscribing to the cast in iTunes is the best thing to do, but I always post here as well.  Cheers man and take a minute to leave some comment son the episode proper too when you have time. What was your favorite part? What has you convinced, what doesn't? Did you read all the comments about hollow hills in this thread? I think that's really quite something.

[sweetsunray]

@LmL I seem to have the same issue but in reverse (have bear stuff symbolism going on in the back of my mind)... So, I have to listen and read in parts, then stop for a moment, do some bear-essay related stuff and then do the rest. I'm at the last part now.

The important thing is that the bear-revenge motif is very much bound to the Blood Emperor, ending a bloodline in revenge, etc.... the bear revenge is tied to the moon's revenge.

I put the quote of the wighted snow bear killing Thoren Smallwood with his sword reflecting the flamelight on your blog. Now there are many, like real many bear figures with the NW. And I think George suggests that especially pretty much all the men at Shadow Tower are bear-figures (all big hairy bearded men), as I see a lot of shadow-bear associations popping up as well, and Qorin is imo a bear figure too.

Now I group them as "loyal" bears and then you have corrupted bears (which is analogues to your poisonous oily black stone). Especially the last group of bear characters exact heavy, over the top revenge. Of course that wighted snow bear is a corrupted bear. Gregor is one, Chett is like a mini-Gregor and his connections to leeches, and his Bessa having associations to Pia, helped me realize that the Boltons are corrupted bears as well. Their sigil is a flayed man. But a skinned bear looks like a man, or more exactly, like a flayed man. And Roose specifically mentions how the leeches are meant to purify the blood, get the poison of anger and hatred out of you, though Ramsay's blood is too poisonous already (and Arya refers to leeches in the Neck as big as pigs, and so we have a tie of black blood sausages being like leeches to purify the wights from the necromancy spell).

Anyway: now the interesting part that I found for you in relation to your last essay, which I think you might like is that in the aSoS prologue Sam  "kills a tree", "shot him right between the ribs" with an arrow. The prologue and the attack onthe Fist is an inverse bear-hunting story... the hunters (2 of which are bear figures) - who were meant to track and kill the snow bear and talk of murdering a poor old bear in his sleep in the Haunted Forest (where that snow bear who can understand human speech) - end up being hunted by wights and one Other, and the wighted snow bear practically leads the charge of their attack. The hunters become the hunted. Which especially in relation to Sam is important, since he is heavily infused with bear associations as well (albeit a black bear that will tend to run away rather than attack). Jon commands Sam to train on his archery. The bow of course is the "huntsman" symbol. But when bears start using bows they become less easy prey, and might actually end up hunting the hunters instead of being the hunted one. And what do we see on his voyage to Oldtown? The Cinammon Wind is first attacked by pirates, which is repelled. Now Sam is a lousy shot, and his arrows only hit water (1st attempt), but Kojja Mo had slain dozen pirates personally (there's the number 12 again). Anyhow since the bear there is using the bow we still have the prey turning the hunter's weapon against him, and thus by that motif the pirates (the hunter) loses. Then they are hunted thrice by Ironborn longships - two of those they could outrun because they were astern. The third tried to isolate them, they let him come close enough, and then one volley was enough to make him retreat and search for easier prey. Sam is again one of the bowmen, and he thinks that this time his arrow hit the ship. Now, Sam ends up at Oldtown and Euron is sure to hit Oldtown (and Euron is very very naughty). So, we have this prey turning the hunter's weapon on him, who once succeeded in shooting a tree right between his ribs, that same Slayer who stuck frozen fire in the throat of an Other. Now what are the chances that Sam manages to Slay a sea dragon made out of trees right between the ribs?

[LmL]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

@LmL I seem to have the same issue but in reverse (have bear stuff symbolism going on in the back of my mind)... So, I have to listen and read in parts, then stop for a moment, do some bear-essay related stuff and then do the rest. I'm at the last part now.

The important thing is that the bear-revenge motif is very much bound to the Blood Emperor, ending a bloodline in revenge, etc.... the bear revenge is tied to the moon's revenge.

I put the quote of the wighted snow bear killing Thoren Smallwood with his sword reflecting the flamelight on your blog. Now there are many, like real many bear figures with the NW. And I think George suggests that especially pretty much all the men at Shadow Tower are bear-figures (all big hairy bearded men), as I see a lot of shadow-bear associations popping up as well, and Qorin is imo a bear figure too.

Now I group them as "loyal" bears and then you have corrupted bears (which is analogues to your poisonous oily black stone). Especially the last group of bear characters exact heavy, over the top revenge. Of course that wighted snow bear is a corrupted bear. Gregor is one, Chett is like a mini-Gregor and his connections to leeches, and his Bessa having associations to Pia, helped me realize that the Boltons are corrupted bears as well. Their sigil is a flayed man. But a skinned bear looks like a man, or more exactly, like a flayed man. And Roose specifically mentions how the leeches are meant to purify the blood, get the poison of anger and hatred out of you, though Ramsay's blood is too poisonous already (and Arya refers to leeches in the Neck as big as pigs, and so we have a tie of black blood sausages being like leeches to purify the wights from the necromancy spell).

Anyway: now the interesting part that I found for you in relation to your last essay, which I think you might like is that in the aSoS prologue Sam  "kills a tree", "shot him right between the ribs" with an arrow. The prologue and the attack onthe Fist is an inverse bear-hunting story... the hunters (2 of which are bear figures) - who were meant to track and kill the snow bear and talk of murdering a poor old bear in his sleep in the Haunted Forest (where that snow bear who can understand human speech) - end up being hunted by wights and one Other, and the wighted snow bear practically leads the charge of their attack. The hunters become the hunted. Which especially in relation to Sam is important, since he is heavily infused with bear associations as well (albeit a black bear that will tend to run away rather than attack). Jon commands Sam to train on his archery. The bow of course is the "huntsman" symbol. But when bears start using bows they become less easy prey, and might actually end up hunting the hunters instead of being the hunted one. And what do we see on his voyage to Oldtown? The Cinammon Wind is first attacked by pirates, which is repelled. Now Sam is a lousy shot, and his arrows only hit water (1st attempt), but Kojja Mo had slain dozen pirates personally (there's the number 12 again). Anyhow since the bear there is using the bow we still have the prey turning the hunter's weapon against him, and thus by that motif the pirates (the hunter) loses. Then they are hunted thrice by Ironborn longships - two of those they could outrun because they were astern. The third tried to isolate them, they let him come close enough, and then one volley was enough to make him retreat and search for easier prey. Sam is again one of the bowmen, and he thinks that this time his arrow hit the ship. Now, Sam ends up at Oldtown and Euron is sure to hit Oldtown (and Euron is very very naughty). So, we have this prey turning the hunter's weapon on him, who once succeeded in shooting a tree right between his ribs, that same Slayer who stuck frozen fire in the throat of an Other. Now what are the chances that Sam manages to Slay a sea dragon made out of trees right between the ribs?

Bear associations aside, Sam one of Sam's symbols is the Black Leviathan, as he's a black blooded black brother who is called a leviathan. Quoin Volmark was of the black blood line of House Hoare and tried to claim the throne of the Iron Islands after Aegon roasted Black Harren Hoare at Harrenhall, a nice comparison.  Point is, the black leviathan is the sea dragon, and the sea dragon is the same the thing as the thunderbolt which set fire to the tree - a moon meteor. So Sam shooting a tree - that's a reenactment of the thunderbolt setting fire to the tree, in a weir way. Nice catch. And the reference to ribs makes it more specific, making us think of the tree-ribs of Nagga's hill, hit by the arrow of the black leviathan. 

I shall have to go back and re-read that chapter... great find.

I need to also go back and read all of your bear essays. I have read some, but I don't know which ones. I need to get up on it because I can clearly see the extensive use of bear symbolism going on and your conclusions and analysis always seems right on. Loving all your analysis of Craster's Keep, because I never even had a foggy idea what was going on with all that sheep - ram - bear stuff, but I could tell something was going on. 

The idea of all the NW brothers sharing in a symbol like their makes sense to me, because the NW have a lot of unified symbolism: black crows, black blood, fighting the darkness with light and fire, etc. Shadow-bears sounds about right.

Who will be the shadow cat and who the ram? Well, Jon turned out to be the shadow cat, because he represents the Lion of Night there, or perhaps the champion of the Lion of Night, who is the Bloodstone Emperor. The ram was Ygritte, a fiery moon maiden with eyes as wide as hen's eggs, and her other companions at the fire. 

I like the link (sausage joke) between black-blooded leeches and pigs, and thus to black-blooded NW brothers becoming sausages. The boar that killed Robert was a "black devil," and was eaten after Robert died. 

I'm ok with Benjen being dead, but what I want to know is why he was sent to the Wall in the first place. Anyway, thanks for dropping by and commenting... let me know what you think when you finish, and I'll be sure to respond on your thread.  

 

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Voice said:

Dragons are indeed bad news for public health. Tis definitely a necessity that something kill them. But, I think it will be greyscale.

Stone dragons have grey scales?

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, LmL said:

Bear associations aside, Sam one of Sam's symbols is the Black Leviathan, as he's a black blooded black brother who is called a leviathan. Quoin Volmark was of the black blood line of House Hoare and tried to claim the throne of the Iron Islands after Aegon roasted Black Harren Hoare at Harrenhall, a nice comparison.  Point is, the black leviathan is the sea dragon, and the sea dragon is the same the thing as the thunderbolt which set fire to the tree - a moon meteor. So Sam shooting a tree - that's a reenactment of the thunderbolt setting fire to the tree, in a weir way. Nice catch. And the reference to ribs makes it more specific, making us think of the tree-ribs of Nagga's hill, hit by the arrow of the black leviathan. 

I shall have to go back and re-read that chapter... great find.

I need to also go back and read all of your bear essays. I have read some, but I don't know which ones. I need to get up on it because I can clearly see the extensive use of bear symbolism going on and your conclusions and analysis always seems right on. Loving all your analysis of Craster's Keep, because I never even had a foggy idea what was going on with all that sheep - ram - bear stuff, but I could tell something was going on. 

The idea of all the NW brothers sharing in a symbol like their makes sense to me, because the NW have a lot of unified symbolism: black crows, black blood, fighting the darkness with light and fire, etc. Shadow-bears sounds about right.

Who will be the shadow cat and who the ram? Well, Jon turned out to be the shadow cat, because he represents the Lion of Night there, or perhaps the champion of the Lion of Night, who is the Bloodstone Emperor. The ram was Ygritte, a fiery moon maiden with eyes as wide as hen's eggs, and her other companions at the fire. 

I like the link (sausage joke) between black-blooded leeches and pigs, and thus to black-blooded NW brothers becoming sausages. The boar that killed Robert was a "black devil," and was eaten after Robert died. 

I'm ok with Benjen being dead, but what I want to know is why he was sent to the Wall in the first place. Anyway, thanks for dropping by and commenting... let me know what you think when you finish, and I'll be sure to respond on your thread.

Yup: Nagga's Ribs and weirwood tree was what I was thinking on for you with Sam "killing a tree".

I do note we regularly have some  quoted scenes in common or quotes that are part of my bear analysis which are very useful for you: Sam shooting the tree, the wight snow bear with his burned paw and Thoren brandishing his fiery sword (with reflected fire) nearly taking the bear's head off but then having his own head taken, the Other first killing bear figure Small Paul with his blue sword with a hissssssss and then Sam covering his eyes while wildly wielding his dragonstone dagger in front of him and sticking it in the Other's throat with a hideous screech and becoming a puddle. When Sam kills Small Paul or attempts to with the dragonstone dagger he heaves breaths like a smith's bellow (AND the avenger bear of myth is called Wayland THE SMITH).

The Qorin-Jon scene at the campfire has your fiery dancers, but the lines Jon says to Qorin about telling the Old Bear he is not a turncloak and then later having the eagle witness Qorin's death is related to bear-lore. When a bear dies, his spirit takes the form of a bird that flies back "home" to the heavens/stars, where he meets his other brother-bear spirits by the fire to relate them which is a good place to live or not if and when any of the bear-spirits is reborn. Jeor has his raven that orders Sam to go when Jeor dies. Sam wishes a raven could carry him "home" again in aCoK, Jon II. Small Paul wants a talking bird that eats corn out of his hand. And when he is a wight, he does have a raven on his shoulder eating his flesh. When Sam attacks him with the dragonstone dagger, and shouts "You're dead! You're dead" the raven flies off with a squalor. Eventually Sam picks up an ember, breaks Paul's teeth and shoves it in his mouth, while Paul's hands are about to tear Sam's head off.

Qorin does not look exactly like a bear, but he's got the hand injury (see Jaime), there are bowmen when they emerge from the cave (and a cave is where you can find bears), there's a sword fight, Jon asking him to tell the Old Bear, and a bird present at his death. And yes, Jon is a wolf, but also a bear-figure. One bear is sacrificed, while the other bear leaves/flees with the "maiden".

For Harrenhal (and I do have that in the Harrenhal essay on the blog), Jaime is hunted thrice... twice the hunt fails. It fails the first time because he is already a captured bear-figure without a sword, and the second time because the hunters (BwB) never realized who they were hunting, and the numbers of bowmen involved are wrong too. But both failed hunts also have a line of "drop your sword in the water" and Boy aiming a crossbow at Jaime (being a bear figure doesn't make him any less of a lion) and saying he can shoot him in the heart. Those of course are the failed attempts to forge Lightbringer. The third hunt does succeed in a capture (after Jaime got himself a sword), has a little line of three bowmen practicing on the poor dead septon's butt, and not only does he lose his sword here, but his swordhand, wanting to die with the maiden urging him to live for revenge. 

Yup, it makes sense for there to be so many bears at the NW: bears are the protectors of the forest, and thus the realm.

Anyway, I loved the essay and the podcast! Can't wait for the next one And I took note of what you did at the end

[sweetsunray]

@LmL I think I found you a gem of a bear-related quote for you: I do think we're finding parallel stuff from two different angles that George uses.

Quote

Jon heard a rustling from the red leaves above. Two branches parted, and he glimpsed a little man moving from limb to limb as easily as a squirrel. Bedwyck stood no more than five feet tall, but the grey streaks in his hair showed his age. The other rangers called him Giant. He sat in a fork of the tree over their heads ... (aCoK, Jon II)

Giant's real name is Bedwyck. With the Bloody Mummers we have Urswyck (who looks like a corpse). Both share the last half of the name -wyck. I was not sure what that might mean, but I was sure that Urs was a hint to ursus = bear (Latin). Urswyck would be a corrupted bear (who btw fled the RL and is on his way to Oldtown). With Sam there as well and well gazillion of bear hints for Sam, I'm sure we'll see Urswyck in Oldtown in Sam's POV.

But your essay puts forward that "Wyk" might mean fierce. Sam thinks of Bedwyck as "fierce" so you may be right. (If there are posts or theories for that I'd love to read them)

Bedwyck's first half of the name "Bed" is George's hint to a bear clue: Bedwyck makes a hollow in a dead oak his "castle" at Craster's (and jokes what a tree it would be if Sam were to make a castle out of a tree). Bears don't den in dead trees, but they sleep in them for a night. The dead oak is also not a location where a squirrel would sleep - they'd sleep in hollows of living trees. So, Giant is not a squirrel, he's a small bear like Tyrion is a small bear. And small bears climb trees for safety.

But Giant here climbs that big weirwood tree at Whitetree. He makes the red leaves rustle, like the Old Gods. So, is that a bear riding a weirwood and being an Old God? A bear greenseer. Note also how "two branches parted". Imo this is about a branching of bloodlines, a corrupted one and a non-abomination one. And the bear sits in the fork. He can go 2 ways -.he can become a naughty greenseer or a positive one.