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Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Grey King and the Sea Dragon


LmL

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13 minutes ago, LmL said:

Also I don't see a conflict between bear and leviathan symbols. Plenty of characters wear multiple symbols. Particularly if you have identified bear people in different states of being, which indicates the bear symbolism can encompass transformation cycles and different stages of someone's life or journey. 

Agreed. I think they may be the same. The bear figures do often get into moon positions too: Gregor in the battle against solar viper; snow bear wight with starry blue eyes and burn on his paw against Thoren wielding a lightbringer echo and whopping Thoren's head off.

There's also a line in aSoS Samwell I where he plods like a bear (his snow packed boots looking like clubfeet and layers and layers of clothes and fat, while the snow gathers on his back like a second coat) but thinks he must look like some "monstrous hunchback" with his pack on his back. You have the "hunchback whale" and a monstrous hunchback whale would be a Leviathan. And then you have aSoS, Jon II describing the "bearlike" giants with their sloping chest, no neck and jutted forward head which is an image of a "hunchback". 

His water-connection simply becomes far more pronunced once he leaves for Braavos and afterwards, and yet it is in these chapters we also discover how abused Sam was by his father, even chained to a wall by the neck.

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@sweetsunray Hodor is also a child-giant. He is skinchanged by Bran (a child and a greenseer) in the thunderbolt scene at Queenscrown. This is what Sweetrobin is emulating - he's a child who sits in a weirwood throne and who possesses a giant. 

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4 hours ago, LmL said:

...and being thrown into a pond. ;) 

...and being made to bathe in bull's blood. ;)

Heya LmL, do you believe the Grey Plague currently in Yi Ti, are actually 'wights' from the Grey Waste?

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9 minutes ago, Falcon2908 said:

Heya LmL, do you believe the Grey Plague currently in Yi Ti, are actually 'wights' from the Grey Waste?

I don't 'believe' that, no, but I've never considered it either. I assume it's actual Grey Plague, but the idea of wights or something like Others coming from the Grey Waste seems possible, but most likely tangential to the main story. 

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9 hours ago, LmL said:

@sweetsunray Hodor is also a child-giant. He is skinchanged by Bran (a child and a greenseer) in the thunderbolt scene at Queenscrown. This is what Sweetrobin is emulating - he's a child who sits in a weirwood throne and who possesses a giant. 

I like that. :D

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It's not so complicated requiring so many words.

Blood magic + sacrificing one's child + sacrificing oneself = becoming the *blank*. A second life as the *blank*. Where *blank* is the animal/beast on hand. The child seems to merely be the catalyst, a bolster, its blood line important.

Euron understands. He knows he needs a heir worthy of him. That is he needs a dragon blooded child in order to sacrifice to achieve his goal of a second life inside a dragon, Drogon. He needs Dany to bear him a dragon blooded child, hence why he's all about marrying her. He seems to have worked out he needs to kill himself too, hence jumping off the tower in order to fly. And it is ofcourse all because he wants to fly, skinchange a dragon, a second life as the dragon.

The blood betrayal is the treason for blood, is Euron's attempt to get a dragon child from Dany to sacrifice to carry out the ritual. Nagga represents Drogon when Euron has succeeded, the Grey King Euron. Euron will enslave Drogon, become him in a second life. He will use his fiery heart and body for his bidding and for his home. But because he's kraken blooded, Drogon will turn into a hybrid of dragon and kraken (sphinx), the stone (he'll also have greyscale making the grey/stone part) beast, a sea dragon. This dragon/kraken beast he will become will gradually turn to stone and gradually turn further kraken, or sea faring rather than a beast of flight. Thus why the Grey King eventually went to the sea, and Nagga's bones turned to stone. Euron the stone beast will turn totally into a sea entity, confined to the depths of the ocean, and turn to stone, provided he lasts that long.

Then comes the storm god to snuff out Nagga's living flame. Dany the stormborn waking the dragon from stone amidst the salt and smoke, removing Euron's presence from within Drogon.

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59 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

It's not so complicated requiring so many words.

Blood magic + sacrificing one's child + sacrificing oneself = becoming the *blank*. A second life as the *blank*. Where *blank* is the animal/beast on hand. The child seems to merely be the catalyst, a bolster, its blood line important.

Euron understands. He knows he needs a heir worthy of him. That is he needs a dragon blooded child in order to sacrifice to achieve his goal of a second life inside a dragon, Drogon. He needs Dany to bear him a dragon blooded child, hence why he's all about marrying her. He seems to have worked out he needs to kill himself too, hence jumping off the tower in order to fly. And it is ofcourse all because he wants to fly, skinchange a dragon, a second life as the dragon.

The blood betrayal is the treason for blood, is Euron's attempt to get a dragon child from Dany to sacrifice to carry out the ritual. Nagga represents Drogon when Euron has succeeded, the Grey King Euron. Euron will enslave Drogon, become him in a second life. He will use his fiery heart and body for his bidding and for his home. But because he's kraken blooded, Drogon will turn into a hybrid of dragon and kraken (sphinx), the stone (he'll also have greyscale making the grey/stone part) beast, a sea dragon. This dragon/kraken beast he will become will gradually turn to stone and gradually turn further kraken, or sea faring rather than a beast of flight. Thus why the Grey King eventually went to the sea, and Nagga's bones turned to stone. Euron the stone beast will turn totally into a sea entity, confined to the depths of the ocean, and turn to stone, provided he lasts that long.

Then comes the storm god to snuff out Nagga's living flame. Dany the stormborn waking the dragon from stone amidst the salt and smoke, removing Euron's presence from within Drogon.

LoL, it's just so not-complicated, clearly!

Kidding aside, I see some merit to the idea of having a child with certain blood juts so you can sacrifice that child... sure, I can see that. The rest... you kinda went off the rails there.  Entertaining, but I don't think we are going to see any of that in the books. If Euron attempts some sort of death transformation, I do not think it would be to turn himself into Drogon's master spirit. He would be resurrecting as an immortal being, like Jon or Coldhands, imo, not a dragon. 

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9 hours ago, LmL said:

If Euron attempts some sort of death transformation, I do not think it would be to turn himself into Drogon's master spirit. He would be resurrecting as an immortal being, like Jon or Coldhands, imo, not a dragon. 

Now why would you say that? The man has a horn called dragon binder, it reads blood for fire, fire for blood. That Rhaego's life, Dany's blood, was the cost of Dany's dragons has been hammered home. Euron has a specific requirement, dragon blooded Dany to produce him a worthy heir. And he has a dream, flying. Dragon, dragon dragon dragon.

One parallel of his worshipped the black thing from the sky, the other made a thrall of a dragon and then lived inside it. One commits a blood betrayal against an amethyst empress, the other tricks the storm god into giving him fire.

What of anything points to cold, wights and Others?

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59 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Now why would you say that? The man has a horn called dragon binder, it reads blood for fire, fire for blood. That Rhaego's life, Dany's blood, was the cost of Dany's dragons has been hammered home. Euron has a specific requirement, dragon blooded Dany to produce him a worthy heir. And he has a dream, flying. Dragon, dragon dragon dragon.

One parallel of his worshipped the black thing from the sky, the other made a thrall of a dragon and then lived inside it. One commits a blood betrayal against an amethyst empress, the other tricks the storm god into giving him fire.

What of anything points to cold, wights and Others?

I wasn't speaking of cold magic, just immortal zombies. 

I follow you on the idea of Grey King living inside the 'sea dragon,' that certainly makes sense as a clue for you idea.

For one thing, it just doesn't make sense for Euron to want to become an animal that cannot speak or do anything except fly around and roast people. It just does not make literary sense, imo. I do think something like what you are proposing may be at  the heart of the dragonbond, and I could see him sacrificing his child to gain magical power. But to turn himself into an animal? No, I don't buy it.

I think the entire AA story is about transformation. AA / The Bloodstone E stole the fire of the gods form the sky and transformed himself through some kind of resurrection type of magical ritual, according to my observations, just as Dany did a kind of death and rebirth thing in Drogo's Pyre, and just as Jon will be resurrected. I could see Euron trying to pull something like that off. 

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Varamyr would have happily taken Ghost as a second life, a life fit for a king.

The AA story is about Dany trying to become pregnant. Sacred fiery flames of the temple her womb, the tempering sex and pregnancy, the failure, shattering, miscarriages. She needs to become pregnant because she needs a dragon blood child to sacrifice (recurring theme, the power of her dragons come at the cost of children, Rhaego, Hazzea) to repeat the process and fix Drogon, to wake him from the stone, cure him of Euron. She repeatedly fails by way of miscarriages by Aurane Waters (water) and Tyrion (lion). Then she finds Jon and succeeds (I will never father a bastard, you know nothing Jon Snow. Dany could not remember the little girl's name and that was the saddest thing of all. I will never have a little girl of my own).

Only Jon being Jon, won't let her sacrifice the baby to restore Drogon and save the realm, the price Dany paid before and will be willing to again. To Jon that would be going Targaryen, and Jon will reject that way to stay Stark, a choice of fathers. Ice vs Fire. Recurring theme, the safety of an innocent child trumps all, including the whole of the realm, Ned (the father he'll never forget), Stannis, Davos, their dead girl in the tower Shireen, Craster, baby swapping, Gilly's child called monster. What kind of monster would give a babe to the living flames? We are both monsters, Daario and I.

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On 9/2/2016 at 11:17 PM, LmL said:

So I'm hesitant to get to specific and firm in my interpretation here, but there are two primary depictions of the meteor shower. It's either a thousand fiery somethings (occasionally with and 'and 1,' as in 'a thousand eyes and one'), and then the three heads of the dragon idea. I am not sure exactly what George means - perhaps the three dragons idea means three major impact sites that we care about, or it could be three different places where humans did something with meteorites. I don't know. But frequently, like at Dany's dragon waking scene, three dragon things wake from the moon burning and cracking. Other times, a thousand things wake. So maybe three big meteors, and one of them breaks up like Tunguska but bigger and gives us the thousand meteors. I've seen some scenes which suggest that.

Right now it is a shot in the dark but I think this either has to do with the Golden Ratio (PHI, the Fibonacci sequence) or PI and their relation to each other and in conjunction their relationship with nature. 

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On 9/6/2016 at 1:10 PM, LmL said:

Also I don't see a conflict between bear and leviathan symbols. Plenty of characters wear multiple symbols. Particularly if you have identified bear people in different states of being, which indicates the bear symbolism can encompass transformation cycles and different stages of someone's life or journey. 

Especially when you consider Horned Serpent mythology. 

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On September 6, 2016 at 6:40 PM, LmL said:

I don't 'believe' that, no, but I've never considered it either. I assume it's actual Grey Plague, but the idea of wights or something like Others coming from the Grey Waste seems possible, but most likely tangential to the main story. 

 

On September 5, 2016 at 4:50 PM, LmL said:

There's a line where Aleister Florent is talking to Davos in the dungeons (I think that's the right Florent) and there's a line where he says "all this talk of a stone dragon, it's madness. Sheer madness." Greyscale brings madness of course... maybe a point in your favor. And stone men as Valyrians fits, because valerians as dragon people are moon meteor symbols (or can be used that way at least). Very like Ironman / Ironborn, as you'll whenever you listen to the episode. 

@LmL You used the gargoyles as stone dragons in your Tyrion Targaryen essay to establish proof that Tyrion is a Targaryen. It is interesting that stone dragons (gargoyle) as Valyrians (moon meteors) are afflicted by the moon's curse (greyscale) when you consider that it also connects @sweetsunray bear curse essays through the Callisto (forest spirit cursed by a moon goddess turn into a bear for fornicating with a thunder sky god in the guise of said moon goddess) myth. Who by the way was the daughter of a guest right breaker (Rat cook) cannibal (Lycoan) then he and his sons were cursed to become wolves by that same thunder sky god effectively killing the male line but inserted himself into the She-bear and started a new race of people. Lycaon, was also n turn the son of Meliboea (Chloris or the pale one nymph that dwelt in the Elysian Fields in the underworld) and Pelasgus (the First Man). 

 

 

Side note: Calisto (one L) is a genus of the subspecies, Satyrinae of the family of Nymphalidae butterfly. They only exist in the Carribean. And they shun sunlight. 

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7 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

 

@LmL You used the gargoyles as stone dragons in your Tyrion Targaryen essay to establish proof that Tyrion is a Targaryen. It is interesting that stone dragons (gargoyle) as Valyrians (moon meteors) are afflicted by the moon's curse (greyscale) when you consider that it also connects @sweetsunray bear curse essays through the Callisto (forest spirit cursed by a moon goddess turn into a bear for fornicating with a thunder sky god in the guise of said moon goddess) myth. Who by the way was the daughter of a guest right breaker (Rat cook) cannibal (Lycoan) then he and his sons were cursed to become wolves by that same thunder sky god effectively killing the male line but inserted himself into the She-bear and started a new race of people. Lycaon, was also n turn the son of Meliboea (Chloris or the pale one nymph that dwelt in the Elysian Fields in the underworld) and Pelasgus (the First Man). 

 

 

Side note: Calisto (one L) is a genus of the subspecies, Satyrinae of the family of Nymphalidae butterfly. They only exist in the Carribean. And they shun sunlight. 

Where exactly does the idea of greyscale being the moon's curse come from?

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6 hours ago, LmL said:

Where exactly does the idea of greyscale being the moon's curse come from?

Per your explanation that the Drowned God is actually a drowned goddess and the sea dragon meteor from the moon. I figured that Mother Rhyone is also a drowned moon goddess. And she at the behest of Garin rose up and drowned the city of Choryane. (Not unlike Aeron pleading with the Drowned God).

In Tyrion V aDwD, Haldon tells Tyrion that "Foul humors in the air. Not curses."

But...

Ysilla tells Tyrion, 

"The conquerors did not believe either, Hugor Hill....The men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts." 

So if Valyrians are symbolically moon meteors then they have been drowned (like the Drowned God/Naga) in the Rhyone and their breath causes greyscale then it isn't a water curse but a moon curse via the dead moon's stony dragon meteor children. 

Greyscale is called Garin's Curse to dragon people which is similar to Montezuma (Moteczuma)'s Revenge for the betrayal of Hernan Cortez. (Who used the myth of the human version of Kukulkhan against the Mexica/Aztec). 

(This is me thinking out loud) And remember that the wars with the Rhyonar started because Volentenes killed a turtle sacred to Mother Rhyone. I wonder if the turtle had the same function in the water as do bears in the forest. But that is a question for sweetsunray. 

 

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Per your explanation that the Drowned God is actually a drowned goddess and the sea dragon meteor from the moon. I figured that Mother Rhyone is also a drowned moon goddess. And she at the behest of Garin rose up and drowned the city of Choryane. (Not unlike Aeron pleading with the Drowned God).

In Tyrion V aDwD, Haldon tells Tyrion that "Foul humors in the air. Not curses."

But...

Ysilla tells Tyrion, 

"The conquerors did not believe either, Hugor Hill....The men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts." 

So if Valyrians are symbolically moon meteors then they have been drowned (like the Drowned God/Naga) in the Rhyone and their breath causes greyscale then it isn't a water curse but a moon curse via the dead moon's stony dragon meteor children. 

Greyscale is called Garin's Curse to dragon people which is similar to Montezuma (Moteczuma)'s Revenge for the betrayal of Hernan Cortez. (Who used the myth of the human version of Kukulkhan against the Mexica/Aztec). 

(This is me thinking out loud) And remember that the wars with the Rhyonar started because Volentenes killed a turtle sacred to Mother Rhyone. I wonder if the turtle had the same function in the water as do bears in the forest. But that is a question for sweetsunray. 

 

Ah ok I follow you PKJ. I guess I need to look at those chapters / myths again, because yes, there is clearly sea dragon stuff here with the idea of dragon people drowning and turning to stone (stone men jumping off the bridge and I to the black water if the Rhoyne is the same idea). What's interesting / confusing is the cold association with the drowned Valyrians and the shrouded lord and his grey kiss. One tale is that he kisses people with lips cold as ice or something like that. 

Grey King emerged from the deeps so it's very possible the Shrouded Lord is a grey King parallel. The people who are statues could evoke the idea of the sea dragon now being a statue, as well as the gargoyle mythology. Interesting that the Shrouded Lord is something of a guardian or ward, a stony / dead one at that, just like gargoyles. And in both cases, the idea of turning something against their own kind is present. The stone men are representative of the dead Valyrians, and they now ward the bridge and river. The Rugen gargoyle tale has the dead dragon being placed on the church to scare other demons away, and that's why gargoyles are terrifying and frightening. Valyrians are given greyscale and now they are a weapon against their own kind. If the cotf turned FM into Others to fight other FM, thats similar (not convinced that's the book reality, but nevertheless). If AZor Ahai somehow created the Others or triggered their awakening, then perhaps his fighting Others was a similar idea. 

The easy parallel is the moon meteors, as far as spreading disease and foul magical humors. the greasy black stone checks all these boxes. The smoke that blotted out the sun adds to this idea. 

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4 hours ago, LmL said:

Ah ok I follow you PKJ. I guess I need to look at those chapters / myths again, because yes, there is clearly sea dragon stuff here with the idea of dragon people drowning and turning to stone (stone men jumping off the bridge and I to the black water if the Rhoyne is the same idea). What's interesting / confusing is the cold association with the drowned Valyrians and the shrouded lord and his grey kiss. One tale is that he kisses people with lips cold as ice or something like that. 

This reminds of the 79 sentinels drowned in frozen seawater (wall). Which this story has both oath breaking betrayal and kinslaying/blood betrayal parts. That story always reminded me of the 9th circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno (The Divine Comedy) with its frozen lake of traitors and three headed/bat winged Satan trapped by his own vanity and munching on Judas (for betraying Christ with a kiss) and then each head other head munching on Brutus and Cassius (for stabbing Cesar in the back and preventing a unified Italy - which is what Machiavelli wanted to achieve with his treatise, The Prince). 

4 hours ago, LmL said:

The Rugen gargoyle tale has the dead dragon being placed on the church to scare other demons away, and that's why gargoyles are terrifying and frightening.

Like you pointed out with Jon's fiery scarecrows and not unlike heads and skulls on pikes that is both warding from and against. 

 

4 hours ago, LmL said:

Valyrians are given greyscale and now they are a weapon against their own kind.

Especially if they were genetically predisposed to contract the disease like the real life case of sickle cell anemia that is a mutation of the gene that gives natural immunity against Malaria which is found in both African and Mediterranean populations and their exposure to mosquitoes over millennium.

But "No one is more accursed than a kinslayer" comes to mind. Garin and the Rhoynar believe they are children of Mother Rhyone and if she is a drowned moon goddess who gave birth to dragon meteor people as well then the Valyrians killing the Rhoynar is kinslaying. 

 

4 hours ago, LmL said:

The easy parallel is the moon meteors, as far as spreading disease and foul magical humors. the greasy black stone checks all these boxes. The smoke that blotted out the sun adds to this idea. 

 And to go back to these parallels and the butterflies I mentioned. There was a genetic study that found that the same gene that produces the bright colors in butterflies (to warn animals that they are poisonous or at the very least do not taste very good) is the same gene that allowed for evolutionary advantage of moths during the Industrial Revolution and its soot black cities to hide from birds.    

And when smelting gold, arsenic dust is produced. Gold being used for power but has the side effect of producing poison. 

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